Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk has no feat anywhere in the vicinity to the planetoid feat. I've seen or heard them all and I argued a billion times against them. So try me. If you think PIS is based on frequency then Hulk performing such feats is like 5/1000 comics. Thus there is a .005 of a chance he will be this strong at anytime. Thus he still loses the majority.
Let's try. Show me an instance in which secondary adamantium was physically cracked.
Originally posted by h1a8
Good try. But your science is very faulty indeed. Speed and energy are two different units. So saying that it takes more than 2x more energy than the speed you put in order to stop you down is nonsense.
I can punch the air repeatedly with the same force and speed as I can punch a heavy bag.True, every action has an opposite and equal reaction. Remember, the counter forces and the conserved momenta are the same. Things always have give. That's why I can punch a speed bag and not slow down considerably vs. punching the Earth. Here mass places a role. Hulk is only 1000lbs. and thus doesn't have sufficient mass to slow her down anywhere significantly. He's lighter to her than a speed bag is to us.
Wrong you missed the whole point entirely. Which was that anyone moving at any speed is going to be stopped by the same counterforces. Meaning there are points that Wonderwoman will be open and vulnerable regardless of how fast she moves, strikes etc, and its at these points where WWh clearly can and will counter her and we have on panel proof of Hulk's capablity to do so.
It happened to Sentry on at least 2 occasions vs Hulk, Its happened to Superman (who is faster than Wonderwoman) vs Grundy and Mongul....it will inevitably happen here.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
lulz at speed being a factor in this scenario more than durability is.
I can see it how it could be a factor though. Considering she is close to Jesse Quick in speed and Superman in strength she should be able to leap up and over Hulk's head, landing behind him and dragging with her to slam him face down into the ground at which point she begins raining punches and elbows on the back of his head/neck.
Depending on how fast each person believes she truly is this could take place in under a second as she at least, IIRC has the on-panel 'faster-than-thought' feat.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
lulz at speed being a factor in this scenario more than durability is.
Especially when you have people bound and fighting at such close range (2feet) that its more difficult to built inertia and force for speed.
She is bound to WWH, lol. Wonderwoman gets the worst beating she's ever had.
This is a spite thread. WWH can simply slam the hell out of her if he wanted and there's nothing she can do to stop such raw physical power.
Originally posted by lft4dedthey are connected by a chain.....
I can see it how it could be a factor though. Considering she is close to Jesse Quick in speed and Superman in strength she should be able to leap up and over Hulk's head, landing behind him and dragging with her to slam him face down into the ground at which point she begins raining punches and elbows on the back of his head/neck.Depending on how fast each person believes she truly is this could take place in under a second as she at least, IIRC has the on-panel 'faster-than-thought' feat.
hulks arm span is like 12-13 feet, if ww is flying full speed he can reach over and choke her or just rabbit punch the shit out of her.
goob made this thread (imo) to negate the highly anticipated ww/dc supporters addiction to say "speed kills" or something in that vain.
imo this is a pounding match and it comes down to who can take a more vicious close quarters beating.
lol, Wonderwoman's entire body mass is less that one of WWH's legs...
WWH's Strength is beyond hers and will only continue to increase.
There is no damage Wonderwoman can do to WWH that he doesnt regen in mere moments while dishing out hellish blows on her.
WWH has unlimited endurance.
Wonderwoman's skin can be pierced by bullets, and she doesn't have any regen whatsoever. Bullets richochet off Savage Hulk.
Handcuffing these two is just wrong. Pure Spite. This is Domestic violence turned ugly for Wondy.
The chain is what I was thinking would pull him along for the 'ride'. Again, IMO with her speed/strength I don't see why she wouldn't be able to leap and dive over his head before he really had a chance to react. Or even roll past him on which ever side they were chained together. He's only a half-ton. Gladiator had him seconds from space before he could react, and that was Glads fighting stupid by picking him up from in front (allowing the earpop) instead of from behind.
Besides, she's a lot better fighter than he is.
What about she rolls around to the side, reaching back through his legs and grabbing his balls even as he yanks her back. He causes his own balls to be ripped off and she wins via KO?
Originally posted by lft4ded
The chain is what I was thinking would pull him along for the 'ride'. Again, IMO with her speed/strength I don't see why she wouldn't be able to leap and dive over his head before he really had a chance to react. Or even roll past him on which ever side they were chained together. He's only a half-ton. Gladiator had him seconds from space before he could react, and that was Glads fighting stupid by picking him up from in front (allowing the earpop) instead of from behind.Besides, she's a lot better fighter than he is.
What about she rolls around to the side, reaching back through his legs and grabbing his balls even as he yanks her back. He causes his own balls to be ripped off and she wins via KO?
LOL
WWH would simply slam the hell out of her due to his strength and size advantages. She would do no better than Gladiator. And balls ripping off? I really would rather not think about that, but Hulk's "balls" would survive....lol and even if they didnt he'll just grow a new pair in no time short, it would seriously piss him off in the meantime.
😆 😆 Attempting to rip off someone's balls who feeds off anger, posesses insane regen and has unlimited strength is a bloody terrible tactic at that close range...
Okay, for the other (WWH) team from the WW vs Juggernaut:
I'm going with stalemate however. Diana has proven to me at least to be near enough Superman/CM in speed that she has little to fear from Juggernaut besides a thunderclap, groundslam, or lucky punch.
Because of the chain once WWH employs on of these three tactis she won't be getting away? And WWH proceeds to wail on her ftw.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Where'd you hear that..."What is the Spiderman vs. Firelord exemption?
, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers."
Spiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, [B]and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established careerSvFL is DIRECTLY related to frequency of occurance. [/B]
Good one! Where did you find the old wording to the rules? Can you PM the old wording on PIS. It seems they changed the wording to the rules.
The new wording sucks IMO.
Originally posted by Ouallada
Let's try. Show me an instance in which secondary adamantium was physically cracked.
The challenge was to present me with a feat in which I can prove that its caliber is nowhere in the vicinity of the planetoid feat.
Several beings under Superman in strength has cracked SA. IM is one of them.
Originally posted by horrorwolf
Wrong you missed the whole point entirely. Which was that anyone moving at any speed is going to be stopped by the same counterforces. Meaning there are points that Wonderwoman will be open and vulnerable regardless of how fast she moves, strikes etc, and its at these points where WWh clearly can and will counter her and we have on panel proof of Hulk's capablity to do so.It happened to Sentry on at least 2 occasions vs Hulk, Its happened to Superman (who is faster than Wonderwoman) vs Grundy and Mongul....it will inevitably happen here.
Okay, I certainly can't punch air a lot faster than I can punch a speed bag (over hundred times a minute). You must understand both give and conservation of momentum. If an object doesn't have a lot of give then most of the momentum would be reflected back at the object striking it.
Yes there would be some slowdown but only a negligible amount. For example, a baseball bat swung at 90mph will only slow down less than 5 mph after striking a baseball. If WW moves her arms at light speed then her slowing down 5% isn't noticeable at all. Hulk is still a statue at 95% the speed of light.
Your original post failed when you fail to see that boxers in real life hardly slow down when they are delivering nasty combos vs. when they are practicing the same combo in shadow boxing. The percent of slowdown is negligible.
Originally posted by horrorwolf
lol, Wonderwoman's entire body mass is less that one of WWH's legs...WWH's Strength is beyond hers and will only continue to increase.
There is no damage Wonderwoman can do to WWH that he doesnt regen in mere moments while dishing out hellish blows on her.
WWH has unlimited endurance.
Wonderwoman's skin can be pierced by bullets, and she doesn't have any regen whatsoever. Bullets richochet off Savage Hulk.
Handcuffing these two is just wrong. Pure Spite. This is Domestic violence turned ugly for Wondy.
Now I understand. You know nothing of WW. Diana is hella durable to physical blunt force trauma. And sharp piercing objects has nothing to do with her durability to take punches. This is just a weaknesses of hers. She's even bullet proof too. The bullets just sting her a little (if at all).
Let me school you on a few things.
1. Diana can lift the weight of the entire Earth (over 6.5E21 tons) and possible much more. Thus her strength dwarfs WWH.
2. Diana has many many speed feats like traveling across the globe almost instantly, entering the speed force (like flash) under her own power, blocking multiple beams of lasers, etc. She can literally see light beams in slow motion.
3. Diana has mastered a fighting style that is superior to any style on Earth. This includes pressure points, weapons, and tactics. She also has over a thousand years of experience to go with it.
4. Diana has a tiara that can easily decapitate Hulk.
Now
2. and 3. proves that she will see Hulk as a statue and could never get hit by him. 4. proves she can end the fight in a nanosecond.
So this is spite. In favor of WW.
Originally posted by ultimatethor
It seems you dont know that the SUPREME EVIDENCE we use in comics is what has happened on PANEL and NOT what is stated in bios and what not. IT is ridiculous to evn suggest that bios and desriptions of charcters are to take precednece over what happened on panel. THE BIOS ARE BASED ON THE COMICS FOR HEAVEN SAKE!! Hence bios are NOT always accurate and the COMICS take top priority. Without the comics there would be NO bios!!! 😱 Your interpretation of forum rules is absolutley laughable. We judge a characters power level from what they HAVE DONE ON PANEL!!!. Not from what is stated in their bios. This should be obvious to anybody. Why do u think people evn bother to provide scans if what has happened on panel should be disregarded for what it says in the bio? In the hulks bio it is said that he can withstand only temperatures of 3000 degrees fahrenheit but in the comics he withstood FAAAAAR more than that. Which one do you think should be taken as superior evidence. You argument is bordering on the ridiculous. You dont understand that a definiton of a charcters abilities is taken from the COMICS!! It comes from the feats and things they have performed in the comics not simply from what it says in the bio.
Forum rules state that a character should fight to the best of their abilities. Where did you get the idea that it means they should fight according to what is in their bios? Most characters have numerous feats that far exceed the limits of their abilities that are stated in their bios. Now you were indeed correct when you said that PIS has to do with definiton of charcter but totally incorrect when you said it does not have to do with showings. As i said the definiton of a charcter comes from the characters showings and appearances in comics. Therefore PIS is what goes against the definiton of a character which in itself is based on a charcters regular portrayal.Now as for the thing about logic. You have once again misunderstood the point. I never said that logic does not apply to the fictional because it indeed does. The problem however occurs when we try to rationalize what happens in the comic world using real world laws and therefore negate what happens ON PANEL.. Just because wondy can block bullets does not mean she can also initiate attacks at superspeed. Yes going by our laws she should be able to do this but her inability to do this on panel is superior to our rationalizations. Captain America should be unable to take a punch from hulk whether he rolls with it or not. Does this mean him taking it is PIS? No it does not because it has consitently done such things in his on panel history. Wolverine who has peak human strength should not be able to cut the hulk or evn collosus for that matter. Howvwer him doing such does not make it PIS because it has bin established in his on panel history. Now ur assumption that supes was punching her at superspeed is ABSLOUTELY RIDCULOUS. As i said just because supes can do something does not he WAS doing it at the time. Once again you attempt to use rationalizations as evidence instead of what happens on panel. Silver surfer has shown that he can blast and attack at superspeeds yet when he was going all out against thanos, he did no such thing. Gladiator and hyperion who can both fight at superspeeds were going all out against each other without any indication of fighting at superspeed. Hence assuming that supes and wondy were doing so is wrong especially considering that wondy has NO previous history of doing such. Indeed i am arguing to win but i also am arguing to prove somehing. You have proved nothing as all ur arguments have ignored the fact that these are comics and hence we should use the priciples of the comic world. To worsen it u then made a futile attempt to suppress the importance of ON PANEL EVIDENCE and replace it with what is stated in bios. Your evn put a big hole in ur own argument. You readily accepted the fact that the laws in the comic universe are vastly different from that in normal universe. And yet you still went down the path of using this universes laws to rationalize when u tried to prove wondys battle speed by using the example of her blocking bullets. Total contradiction! The fact that the laws of the comic universe are different from that of the real universe is the main reason that what happens ON PANEL is the SUPREME EVIDENCE in comic debates. As we cannot fully understand the laws of the comic universe, we cannot use our own laws to rationalize events and then simply discard what happens on panel.
The hulk does have feats in the vicinity of the asteroid feat and i have evn mentioned them. Pushing apart the anitmatter spheres, Ripping the fabric of a dimension by punching through time, Holding a planet together, Overcoming forces that can change the orbit of s planet. etc These are feats that are indeed comparable to that feat. If u feel like arguing go ahead but i hope it will be better than the rest of ur arguments. As i have said PIS is based on contradiction of how a charcter is regularly portrayed. Also your reasoning for the hulks strength is purely laughable. There is a major difference between the hulk scenario and wonderwoman scenario. Wonderwoman for one has consistently failed to fight at superspeed and there is far more evidence that proves the contrary which is that she cant fight at such speeds. Howver the hulk has NEVER failed to accomplish such high end feats when he gest the opportunity to. Each time the plot provides the hulk with such a feat to perform he does it succesfully. Howvwer each time wonderwoman is faced with an opportunity to show her battle speed she fails miserably. Note it is NOT about the amount of such feats performed but your level of success in performing such feats given the circumstances or context. Hulk is regularly shown s being more than capable of such feats while wondy is the exact opposite when it comes to battle speed.
The last part of ur reply once again brings us back to the fact that ON PANEL SHOWINGS are what determine a charcters powerset. Not ratings or bios but ON PANEL SHOWINGS. Wonderwoman has literally no feat that shows her combat speed against another being but you would choose to throw out her ENTIRE HISTORY and instead believe in ur rationalization. This is nothing more than plain foolishness! 😆 😂 🤣 😱 🙁 and evn the lowest level debater should know this. The rule states that characters are to fight utilizing their powers to the fullest of their abilities. It dos NOT mean we are to take a singular high feat and disregard the rest of his feats. The range of a charcters abilities are dtermined by their NON PIS on panel history and not by singular high feats. Therefore a balance needs to be made among the feats. Once this range has been established, the charcter is then to fight to the best of his ability meaning that a charcter is to fight using his abilities( whose range is backed by on panel evidence) hence strategies like speedblitzing are used.
At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent. For this reason we have a No PIS Rule. This rule prohibits the use of such instances of PIS from being used as evidence in debates.
Above is the PIS rule, note the word history is included showing that a Characters history is indeed important when determining PIS and debating fights. It a shows that a characters HISTORY( not singular feat) is essential in determining a charcters capabilities and hence what is and what is NOT PIS. A charcters on panel history is what establishes powerlevels and not bios no matter where they are gotten from.
My friend official bios come first unless they contradict comics. Did you know that comics have errors too? The comics are based on bios too. Did you know that?
Also you seem very skilled at misunderstanding people. When I mentioned bios I was referring to the general power and not the specific. WW has super speed. I didn't say how much nor did I imply that the bios say how much either. I in no way implied that the exact power levels in bios must be applied to the forum fight. Namor can lift over 100 tons (even though is bios say differently) yet he still has super strength. So him having super strength or not is the argument and not how much. I'm arguing that WW has super speed period, nothing more.
Again my point is that characters won't perform lower than what their bios give if they are fighting to their best. Nearly every character has performed higher on occasion though. WW has super speed as it states in her bios. So her fighting without super speed is going against
the bios and thus to her best ability. This is my point. This is what I'm arguing, nothing more. Do you understand now?
And how do you show a character using speed when fighting another character with speed? You either can't or its very difficult. Everyone and their momma knows WW has the power to fight at super speed if she wants to. Ducking superman's punches, dodging shazam's speedblitz, lassoing zoom, and blocking bullets and lasers are just examples of her being able to fight at super speed. No one will argue that Silver Surfer is not fast in battle when he has been hit many times in a physical confrontation by much slower beings. So I'm keeping the common sense stance that WW can indeed fight at super speed without providing any proof. If you disagree then God bless you. For you are a lost son indeed.
All of this is moot anyway. The bottom line is that
Hulk is a statue to someone who can see lasers in slow motion.
Hulk can get decapitated by her tiara in a nanosecond.
Originally posted by h1a8
The challenge was to present me with a feat in which I can prove that its caliber is nowhere in the vicinity of the planetoid feat.Several beings under Superman in strength has cracked SA. IM is one of them.
The challenge was to answer my question, not to compound your lack of logical discernment.
Who are these beings? Issues or scans would be required.
Originally posted by h1a8
Okay, I certainly can't punch air a lot faster than I can punch a speed bag (over hundred times a minute). You must understand both give and conservation of momentum. If an object doesn't have a lot of give then most of the momentum would be reflected back at the object striking it.
Yes there would be some slowdown but only a negligible amount. For example, a baseball bat swung at 90mph will only slow down less than 5 mph after striking a baseball. If WW moves her arms at light speed then her slowing down 5% isn't noticeable at all. Hulk is still a statue at 95% the speed of light.Your original post failed when you fail to see that boxers in real life hardly slow down when they are delivering nasty combos vs. when they are practicing the same combo in shadow boxing. The percent of slowdown is negligible.
Still wrong. Newtons law of physics defies that. Physics laws are attached to every part of your body. To maintain speed, you have to fight your own mass+gravity+additional outside forces. Similar to If you have ever tried while you are running at top speed - to stop and switch to moving in the opposide direction.
As an example, what track runners, or baseball players do is generally drop their center of gravity by almost a 3rd...coming to a slide position, shift all weight behind one lead leg and wait until they fully slow to a stop...which takes at least 3x as long as it took to being running, before they can even begin to start building inertia to move the opposite direction.
If you can watch some physics videos it will better demonstrate this. The point being is not how much you can break these laws, its just that each time whats breaking these forces comes to a stop, its multiplied and in effect being held...before it can even proceed to move again.
Again my point is not how fast WW can move, its that the recovery time from missed or shots blocked will leave her powerless in more that sufficient time for WWH to clobber her. She will take a massive beating here.
Originally posted by h1a8
Now I understand. You know nothing of WW. Diana is hella durable to physical blunt force trauma. And sharp piercing objects has nothing to do with her durability to take punches. This is just a weaknesses of hers. She's even bullet proof too. The bullets just sting her a little (if at all).Let me school you on a few things.
1. Diana can lift the weight of the entire Earth (over 6.5E21 tons) and possible much more. Thus her strength dwarfs WWH.2. Diana has many many speed feats like traveling across the globe almost instantly, entering the speed force (like flash) under her own power, blocking multiple beams of lasers, etc. She can literally see light beams in slow motion.
3. Diana has mastered a fighting style that is superior to any style on Earth. This includes pressure points, weapons, and tactics. She also has over a thousand years of experience to go with it.
4. Diana has a tiara that can easily decapitate Hulk.
Now
2. and 3. proves that she will see Hulk as a statue and could never get hit by him. 4. proves she can end the fight in a nanosecond.So this is spite. In favor of WW.
1. WWH can supass that. + Plus his strength is dynamic and will continue to trump hers.
2. She is fast in combat but that won't stop her from recieving punishment being handcuffed to a monster than has regen + infinite strength...and proven superhuman combat reflexes and speed of his own.
3. Pressure points have failed verses Savage. WWH is far beyond Savage Hulk in fighting experience as well.
4. WWH could easily KO her from the start, or simply hold her at an arms length at any moment...making any attempt to do so impossible. Do you realize the Size and Strength WWH has over Diana?
Sorry Wonderwoman loses here. And hancuffs easily seal the deal for World War Hulk.
Originally posted by geshien
WW cuts off Hulks arm...the rules change.
WW wins the majority.
The rules change one Diana gets choked out or faceplanted instantly..or worse. Not to mention Hulk has lost over 90% of his flesh - regenerating it back in moments while advancing. That didnt stop him either.
WWH stomps her, he is Stonger and more powerful with greater feats to back it up.