Top 5 Most Powerful Mutants

Originally posted by id369
To be fair (and correct), its more like Galactus did not know the consequences of separating the Manifestation from the Host.

That's true.

The consequences being Phoenix getting erased from existence.

Originally posted by id369
And it was through Rachael own decision that she went along with Galactus. This was due to the fact, that if they decided to fight. The consequences of their encounter would have bin a heavy.

It's true, Rachel gave herself willingly,
but Galactus was going to do it one way or another.

Had Rachel fought back, they would've fought, and well ... too bad it didn't happen.

Originally posted by id369
After all its not like Galactus could just press a button, and boom. Death of the Phoenix, the host needed to be physically hooked up to the device in order to proceed with its function.

I agree.

But my point was that many times mis-informed cats will post,
"Phoenix is immortal, indestructible, immutable, blah, blah, blah"

But in fact, that issue proved that the PF can be erased from existence.

The PF host has died before and returned, (with no affect on the universe)
but this time (Excalibur#25) the Stars were turning off,
this is because the PF in its Natural state is the sustenance of the Stars.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Galactus & Phoenix confronted each other once before,
Galactus wasn't in the mood to continue, but Jean called Galactus her equal.
Galactus stated that with time, he would destroy her.

When Galactus fought Rachel, he was Starving!

Originally posted by Mr Master

Phoenix has never affected the 616 Reality, from the WHR or anywhere else.

Phoenix was able to Repair the Alternate Future of Reality/Timeline 15104.
Phoenix was able to Heal Reality 15104 but through Scott.

It was Scott that actually Healed Reality 15104 by deciding to stay with the XMen & Emma.
Phoenix is given credit because she forced Scott into making that decision.
But it was Scott's decision that Altered Reality 15104 thus healing it.

15104 is a diverge of 616 reality. In order to reset the course of the 15104, 616 had to be directly effected.

When Jean is holding the universe, apparently she not only controls the future timeline of the 616 but, 616 itself and possibly past events.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Phoenix controls Space at the Atomic level.

Jamie controls Space at the Quantum level.

Jaspers control Reality itself, all levels.

HOM Wanda controls and creates Reality on all levels.

Havok/Nexus is the bridge between All Realities in the Omniverse.
..................................................................................................

Big difference ey.

Oh thank you for your opinions. I am sure, that has bin established by you though out the thread.

I do have a question, what is Quantum level?

Originally posted by Mr Master

I agree.

But my point was that many times mis-informed cats will post,
"Phoenix is immortal, indestructible, immutable, blah, blah, blah"

But in fact, that issue proved that the PF can be erased from existence.

The PF host has died before and returned, (with no affect on the universe)
but this time (Excalibur#25) the Stars were turning off,
this is because the PF in its Natural state is the sustenance of the Stars.

Mmm. It seems the manifestation of the Phoenix Force in 616 reality would have died.
The problem is, would it remain dead?

Because it seems to me, that the actual Phoenix Force resides in the White Hot Room.
It would seem that to permanently kill of all other manifestation, you would have to seek out the source (so to speak).

Ah - back to watch some anime.

Originally posted by id369
Because it seems to me, that the actual Phoenix Force resides in the White Hot Room.
It would seem that to permanently kill of all other manifestation, you would have to seek out the source (so to speak).

Originally posted by Galan007
Jamie Braddock has warped the WHR, on panel. none

I barely remember skipping through that. I don’t remember the mechanics or events, that took place in tha issue. (I should read through that issue truthfully).

But it seems so. I have a question though. Is that the same issue that Psylocke evidently beats Jamie Braddock?

Originally posted by id369
I have a question though. Is that the same issue that Pyslock evidently beats Jamie Braddock?

Originally posted by Galan007
ermmno

Originally posted by id369
Could you point our that Issue name and number?

"Uncanny X-Men: #462"

❌

no real need to rip through creation chasing feats of pis

Originally posted by Galan007
Where Jamie warps the WHR?

"Uncanny X-Men: #462"

Ah thanks.

I am still confused on how Marvel applies quantum level effects.
How do “they” define quantum mechanics?
Its my understanding that, that quantum level pertains to effecting matter and energy down to its vary components(down to sub atomic levels).

Originally posted by id369
Ah thanks.

I am still confused on how Marvel applies quantum level effects.
How do “they” define quantum mechanics?
Its my understanding that, that quantum level pertains to effecting matter and energy down to its vary components(down to sub atomic levels).

Originally posted by Galan007
Jamie is able to simply pull/manipulate the 'quantum strings' -- of which comprise ALL reality.

Well personal observation of mine is. If you are able to effect energy and matter down to its component levels. Depending on the degree, you indirectly (if by conscious or unconscious effort) effecting quantum strings.

I am not sure, if Marvel takes note on this. But meh its marvel >_>.

i agree with mr master on this one phoenix for the win!!

Originally posted by Mr Master
Psi-Lord actually creates a Big Bang of Anti-Matter energy,

and attacks Vagaard with it:

"brace yourselves [B]for the Big Bang"

............................................................................................

That Universe explodes:

"Inconceivable ...
Space/Time itself has been torn asunder by the resulting cataclysm,

young Richards' powers are vast"

............................................................................................

Psi-Lord would not have survive that "Big Bang" he created,
so he escaped that Universe's implosion at the last moment:

"An inspired stratagem Psi-Lord,
taking refuge from the implosion withIN your personal Sub-Space Pocket" [/B]

Thanks waiting for it would you say that Onslaught would be capable of accomplishing the same feat??? And I'm tempted to call it a plot device... not a feat that he could go around doing at a daily basis.

Originally posted by id369
That what if encounter you speak of. (What If volume 1, issue 27 I believe.)
Both Galactus and Phoenix state they are equal.
This is more heavily implied in 616, during the Dark Phoenix Arc. When Mr. Fantastic states Dark Phoenix Enegery readings rival Galactus own.

I have no problem with putting normal Galactus = to Phoenix.

In fact, I placed WPOTC above normal Galactus and all the Alternate Abstracts.

WPOTC is below Eternity/Infinity
WPOTC is = to the major Concepts (Death/Oblvion/Chaos/Order)

Potentially Galactus is greater than them all, and = to Eternity, imo.

Originally posted by id369
15104 is a diverge of 616 reality.

Actually 15104 is Future Timeline located 150 years in a Future where only X-Men exist.

616 was still in affect and in existence while the whole 15104 comedy played out.

You're not suggeting that both Realities were the same,
while both were co-existing as independant realities are you?
(cause that's impossible)

It is clearly stated by the official Marvel handbook:

Jean performed her feat in issue #154 (on Reality 15104)

The official bio clearly states this:

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)
......................................................................................

It wasn't the Future of 616, it was the Future of 15104
(which was in effect since issue#150)

"Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104 began in issue#150)

(excerpt from the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" bio)

Originally posted by id369
In order to reset the course of the 15104, 616 had to be directly effected.

Actually only Scott needed to be affected directly.
Jean did absolutely Nothing to the 15104,
all the power was in Scott's decision, just like Grant Morrison stated himself:

(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)
...............................................................................

This inturn affected the possibility of 15104's Future.

Originally posted by id369
When Jean is holding the universe, apparently she not only controls the future timeline of the 616 but, 616 itself and possibly past events.

Jean only Repaired 15104's Future atomically.
Then Reality/Timeline 15104 manifested in her hands
(Jean NEVER did anything to it)

In fact, Jean didn't even know what it was, or what to do with it:

First question:

Jean says, "Did I have to FIX something that was dying?

Jean gets NO ANSWER!

Second Question:

What is it?"

Jean gets ANSWERED!

It tells her, "A badly wounded Orphan Universe ... Phoenix work"

Fine ..... Now WHAT does that mean?....

Jean Grey DOESN'T KNOW either.

"But...but WHAT's that supposed to mean?"
......................................................................................

This clearly proves it surely wasn't the Reality/Timeline 15104 in her hands
she Repaired atomically.

So what else was there to Repair?

The severed Future of Reality 15104 (just like the Bio states)

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104

Originally posted by id369
Oh thank you for your opinions. I am sure, that has bin established by you though out the thread.

I can produce a slew of scans depicting Phoenix's power over atoms,
can you produce one where she controls the Sub-Atomic level or even below that?

I sincerely doubt it, but try.

Originally posted by id369
I do have a question, what is Quantum level?

Quantum Strings that make up everything,
there's an issue where Jamie is said to manipulate quarks and leptons through "Strings"

Here we have Kubik giving us separate levels of size concerning particles:

"Quarks, the essential building blocks of All Matter,
we have arrived at the Sub-Microscopic Quantum level"

"Quarks combine to become elementary Particles which become Atoms,
Atoms combine to become Molecules, Molecules combine and life begins"

......................................................................................

Quarks & Leptons then Neutrinos,
then the Nulceus then Protons, Neutrons & Electrons,
finally the Atom.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
i agree with mr master on this one phoenix for the win!!

You're actually disagreeing with me.

Nice try on the optical illusion.

hmm i did not relize just figuerd with all your phoenix scans you must be a fan. and debating for her.
if some one was to click your scans and not pay any attention to your captions thay might get that impression no?

Originally posted by id369
Mmm.

It seems the manifestation of the Phoenix Force in 616 reality would have died.

The problem is, would it remain dead?

Because it seems to me, that the actual Phoenix Force resides in the White Hot Room.

It would seem that to permanently kill of all other manifestation,

you would have to seek out the source (so to speak).

This is the WHR:

.......................................................................................

Jamie teleported Rachel and Betsy to the Room,
then after a short while he begins to Morph the White Hot Room:

.......................................................................................

Jamie appears flying by an image of Captain Britain:

.......................................................................................

Jamie Braddock yanking the Strings of Reality withIN the WHR effortlessly:

.......................................................................................

Jamie made it his "playpen" as X famously quoted.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
hmm i did not relize just figuerd with all your phoenix scans you must be a fan.

I'm not a fan or enemy of any character,
I simply know alot about the Cosmic related cats.
If knowing about different characters in comics makes you a fanboy, then I'm guilty,
cause I like knowing as much as I can, again, primarily within the Cosmic genre.
I prefer for you to call me a
"fanboy" of the Marvel Cosmology and/or Cosmic related characters.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
and debating for her.

I debate for a character when the thread he/she is in is deserving of the win.
But if said character should lose in another thread,
then I stick to on panel illustrations/depictions/statements and correlated bio confirmations.

I've always place Phoenix at par with the major Concepts. (right beneath Eternity/Infinity)
(but even the major Concepts are below several uber gods)

Originally posted by xjustice69x
if some one was to click your scans and not pay any attention to your captions thay might get that impression no?

nimo

It's suggested in Exiles #90, that Proteus (in Morph's body) may be the most powerful being in creation, and that if he were to remanifest his personality, and regain control, that he would essentially be able to destroy the entire omniverse. He's definitely up there.

Phoenix ranking
As to Phoenix ranking in cosmic hierarchy. I don’t know ware to rank her, it has a title and a job. As important, and fundamental as the rest of the Cosmics. How does this pertain in a match? I have no idea, I guess we go by what the character has shown and can do with it (but that can be contradicting in it, as itself.

I don’t see the point in continuing the time lines or realties that took place in in “Here Comes Tomorrow“. I for see circular logic ahead. So simply put, my point of interpretation differs from yours.

So I will just leave my final comment.

She held the 15104 reality in her palm. It is not shown, nor comments of her holding the 616. There is no way, she could have effected the 616 directly unless… 15104 was is directly tied in the 616 reality. What you see is 15104 is the current state of the future 616. When the desire to not just disinfect the alternate universe, but to change the state of the wounded universe. The amputated reality changes (from green, to blue). It is their that you now see her address the 616 reality, and it is their that she nudge’s Scott to change his mind.

And here are the points of reference
“it was Scott’s decision to walk away from Emma that the apocalyptic evens of “Here Comes Tomorrow” in motion. Jean make sure the “FUTURE” would never take place.

As stated the Core Continuum Designation: Earth 15104. Continuum from what? 616.

Like AoA, alternate future diverge from a point of origin. Clearly its point of origin is 616.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Jean only Repaired 15104's Future atomically.
Then Reality/Timeline 15104 manifested in her hands
(Jean NEVER did anything to it)

Other then amputate the universe from the multiverse, come close to killing it from losing concentration, and nudge Scott to change his mind. No she didn’t do much, though she did have much help from the PF. That’s understandable, for the special relation each other share.

Note: Most of the time, you see fanboys attempt to manipulate quotes and scans to user out an unreadable explanation or feat. I am not one of those, If anyone body wants to know the issues, or point of reference. You can pm me, and I will gladly send them to you. Its better to read the material and make self interpretations

Originally posted by id369
As to Phoenix ranking in cosmic hierarchy. I don’t know ware to rank her, it has a title and a job. As important, and fundamental as the rest of the Cosmics.

Actually Lord Chaos/Master Order play a more important role than Phoenix to Reality.

Without Chaos/Order there is no Universe.

Without Phoenix, the Universe remains,
Stars will die that can be easily self sustained by an outside source
(there are plenty of UniverseS sustained by other sources)
many Universes are self sustained without any need of Phoenix.

But Chaos/Order is needed in any rational Universe.

Originally posted by id369
How does this pertain in a match? I have no idea, I guess we go by what the character has shown and can do with it (but that can be contradicting in it, as itself.

Yea, we judge cats based on Panel feats/statements and hopefully with bio correspondence.

Originally posted by id369
I don’t see the point in continuing the time lines or realties that took place in in “Here Comes Tomorrow“. I for see circular logic ahead. So simply put, my point of interpretation differs from yours.

So I will just leave my final comment.

Cool. My point is not an opinion though, Marvel officially stated it was Reality 15104,
the entire time, it was never 616, not ever.

616 was still taking place in 2004,
while simultaneously 150 years in the Future, another Reality was taking place in the Future.

Two separate Points in History cannot occupy the same Space/Time continuum simultaneously.

Originally posted by id369
She held the 15104 reality in her palm.
It is not shown, nor comments of her holding the 616.

I agree, it was Reality 15104 in her hands, Not 616.

Originally posted by id369
There is no way, she could have effected the 616 directly unless…
15104 was is directly tied in the 616 reality.

She never affected 616 directly.
She affected "One of 616's Possible Futures" (many possible futures)

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104
............................................................................................................

And 616 is tied to 15104
(because 15104 is a tiny Reality/Timeline occupying a moment in time for no reason)
this is why 15104 is well, ... called 15104 and Not 616.

Because 15104 is a completely separate Reality of its own.

Since it is a brand new Reality
that mysteriously popped up out of nowhere and decided to exist,
it a Young Reality, and all Universes when young, are tiny, like babies.

That's why This tiny, baby Reality 15104, "Lost it's Parents" (as stated On Panel)

Originally posted by id369
What you see is 15104 is the current state of the future 616.

A 616 where only X-Men exist.

Originally posted by id369
When the desire to not just disinfect the alternate universe, but to change the state of the wounded universe. The amputated reality changes (from green, to blue). It is their that you now see her address the 616 reality, and it is their that she nudge’s Scott to change his mind.

Actually according to on panel depictions the bio and Morrison,
Jean went back in time, to the real 616, changed Scott's mind,
and then due to Scott's decision, the Future of Reality 15104 was altered.

Reality 15104 had already been since issue #150 the second Scott left the X-Men & Emma,

but it's funny cause we never see a transcendence of Time,
one moment its 2004, the next page it's 2154,
meanwhile in the rest of the Marvel Universe (the rest of Marvel comics that is)
it's still 2004, and nothing's changed, no one has heard of Reality 15104,
and no one has to deal with it.
Because in Reality 15104 .. only X-Men exist. 😂

So in the end,
Reality 15104 is a Timeline,
connected to 616 because it represents a possible Future,
but because of its immature state of being,
it is logically far smaller than its Parent Reality.

This is why these divergences are senseless to me. (but that's how Marvel has it)

Originally posted by id369
And here are the points of reference
“it was Scott’s decision to walk away from Emma that the apocalyptic evens of “Here Comes Tomorrow” in motion. Jean make sure the “FUTURE” would never take place.

Ok, I been saying that,

Scott was the inadvertent power that caused the immature birth of Reality 15104
and Scott was the inadvertent power that Altered Reality 15104's Future.

Originally posted by id369
As stated the Core Continuum Designation: Earth 15104. Continuum from what? 616.

616 is Billions of years old,
15104 is barely passing 150 years.

I already stated 15104 is a Timeline connected to 616.
But it is an extremely young Timeline, and therefore tiny like Uatu's 1602.

Originally posted by id369
Like AoA, alternate future diverge from a point of origin. Clearly its point of origin is 616.

Yea but again,
because they are new Realities they are tiny by comparison.

Originally posted by id369
Other then amputate the universe from the multiverse,

You mean from 616,

15104 is one of 616's Possible Timelines.

Originally posted by id369
come close to killing it from losing concentration,

She did almost kill that tiny Timeline.

Originally posted by id369
and nudge Scott to change his mind.

No she didn’t do much,

I agree, I wouldn't call that much either.

Originally posted by id369
though she did have much help from the PF. That’s understandable, for the special relation each other share.

She also apparently needed to be in the WHR to perform the task.

And she was evidently pressed for Time:

"And they said I was to tell you to HURRY"
..........................................................................................

This doesn't seem to be powers on a whim,
but a feat surrounded by circumstances and prep.

She needs the WHR.
She needs to Repair atomically instead of with a gesture or thought.
She can't do it at will, she had to do it within a certain time.
She needed to go back in time and change Scott's mind to Alter a Timeline.

Originally posted by id369
Note: Most of the time, you see fanboys attempt to manipulate quotes and scans to user out an unreadable explanation or feat. I am not one of those,

Yea, we all hate those guys.

Originally posted by id369
If anyone body wants to know the issues, or point of reference. You can pm me, and I will gladly send them to you. Its better to read the material and make self interpretations

👆

For this debate folks, get yourself a copy of New-X-Men #150-154.

At the ned of #155, Grant Morrison tells you what went down in a brief paragraph.

And if he's wrong, well, then, so be it. 🙂