Originally posted by illadelph12
So, as I originally thought, Here Comes Tomorrow, while canon, is essentially a What If in which 616 Scott leaves the X-Men thereby causing the Sublime ruled future of 15104, but in the future of 15104, Jean is resurrected and reaches back in time to force Scott not into leaving the X-Men at the point where 616 diverged into 15104, as well as telekinetically removing the portion of 15104 that took place after Scott's leaving......right?
Originally posted by illadelph12
So, as I originally thought, Here Comes Tomorrow, while canon, is essentially a What If in which 616 Scott leaves the X-Men thereby causing the Sublime ruled future of 15104, but in the future of 15104, Jean is resurrected and reaches back in time to force Scott not into leaving the X-Men at the point where 616 diverged into 15104, as well as telekinetically removing the portion of 15104 that took place after Scott's leaving......right?
✅ SOMEBODY GETS IT! 😄 👆 You're a Star Trek I'm guessing.
Mr. M: SHOTS FIRED! durznuts
Originally posted by illadelph12So, as I originally thought, Here Comes Tomorrow, while canon, is essentially a What If in which 616 Scott leaves the X-Men thereby causing the Sublime ruled future of 15104, but in the future of 15104, Jean is resurrected and reaches back in time to force Scott not into leaving the X-Men at the point where 616 diverged into 15104, as well as telekinetically removing the portion of 15104 that took place after Scott's leaving...
...right?
Because 616 is located in the Present Universe, (real world time, as in right now it's 2008)
while possible Futures are located .. well ... in the Future.
And in Marvel Comics, NO two points in time can occupy the same space,
this is why ALL alternate/diverged Futures are located in separate Timelines.
This is why Jean amputated the Future of 15104 and not of 616:
Because although this Future was created FROM 616,
it of course was NOT 616, like ALL What Ifs.
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"
Notice, IN ONE Future! 🙂
In Marvel Comics, there is no such thing as definitive 616 Future.
Originally posted by Mindset
Oh come now Raoul, we all know you don't read X-men comics. 🙂
i know, me of all people, i just hate those rascally mutants...
Originally posted by Mr Master
Very, if you're claiming that Here Comes Tomorrow took place in 616,
without a doubt I'm serious.Well, I hope you didn't, otherwise,
if you did read it, and you do believe that,
this debate will go no where. 🙂I also think it's interesting that Here Comes Tomorrow was so outside of 616,
that not a single reference of any kind concerning Here Comes Tomorrow,
is mentioned in 616 Jean's WC bio.It literally jumps from her Death right before Here Comes Tomorrow,
into Endsong, which is where 616 canon Jean's history continues.Yep, in order to get the details to Here Comes Tomorrow,
you gotta go to the Alternate Universes handbooks,
because after all,
that's where it took place, from beginning to end. 👆Form the very beginning:
"Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104 began in issue#150)
(excerpt from the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" bio)
first of all, you don't have to quote here comes tomorrow to me, why?
because me? i'll admit, i miss the odd one shot, i didnt read most of excalibur, or any of x-factor's second run, but when it comes to x-men arcs? big ones, where scott is a major player?
try finding a person on kmc who's read more than me. and being the huge scott fan i am, i read it once, then i read it again (as i tend to read too fast), and i read it yet again, and then i analyse the shit out of it.
you don't agree, thats fine, but presuming that i don't read x-men? generally, i tend to be quite modest about what i've read, i avoid most debates of characters i've read quite thoroughly, as i just don't like getting caught up, but the day i allow myself to be condescended to about an arc that scott summers was a major player in, well, thats the day i'm no longer breathing.
and that day isn't today.
all of what you've posted is stuff i already know. morrison's quotes support what i said.
Originally posted by illadelph12
😆
😛
Originally posted by illadelph12You do realize that's essentially what Master has been saying, right Trick?
I don't think they understand,
that every possible Future is created from withIN 616,
yes 616 is involved in that manner, this is how "What If" Universes are created.
Someone in a parallel reality does something differently than the template in 616,
and this inadvertently instantly creates a What if/alternate diverged Universe.
If the "someone" in the parallel reality continues on the same course as the template in 616,
then the Universe is never created, and thus remains a mirror of 616.
So basically, Scott made a decision,
then Grant gives us a POSSIBLE What if scenario had that decision stayed the same,
but if Scott makes the right decision,
then that What If scenario is ensured to never exist,
even in a state of just possibilities,
because what made that What if scenario possible to begin with,
was the original decision, yes, in 616.
So it could've been 616, but it was not, and never was.
Originally posted by Raoulf*cking x-men fanboys. wiggle
first of all, you don't have to quote here comes tomorrow to me, why?because me? i'll admit, i miss the odd one shot, i didnt read most of excalibur, or any of x-factor's second run, but when it comes to x-men arcs? big ones, where scott is a major player?
try finding a person on kmc who's read more than me. and being the huge scott fan i am, i read it once, then i read it again (as i tend to read too fast), and i read it yet again, and then i analyse the shit out of it.
you don't agree, thats fine, but presuming that i don't read x-men? generally, i tend to be quite modest about what i've read, i avoid most debates of characters i've read quite thoroughly, as i just don't like getting caught up, but the day i allow myself to be condescended to about an arc that scott summers was a major player in, well, thats the day i'm no longer breathing.
and that day isn't today.
all of what you've posted is stuff i already know. morrison's quotes support what i said.
Originally posted by Raoulfirst of all, you don't have to quote here comes tomorrow to me, why?
because me? i'll admit, i miss the odd one shot, i didnt read most of excalibur, or any of x-factor's second run, but when it comes to x-men arcs? big ones, where scott is a major player?
try finding a person on kmc who's read more than me. and being the huge scott fan i am, i read it once, then i read it again (as i tend to read too fast), and i read it yet again, and then i analyse the shit out of it.
you don't agree, thats fine, but presuming that i don't read x-men? generally, i tend to be quite modest about what i've read, i avoid most debates of characters i've read quite thoroughly, as i just don't like getting caught up, but the day i allow myself to be condescended to about an arc that scott summers was a major player in, well, thats the day i'm no longer breathing.
and that day isn't today.
all of what you've posted is stuff i already know. morrison's quotes support what i said.
Just knowing about Scott,
and even the X-Men doesn't define how Marvel's cosmology works.
Last time, in Marvel,
the instant a story takes place in another timeframe,
it's automatically an alternate reality.
That's a Marvel fact! ... and I'll prove it tomorrow. (then WHAT?)
but you should know that
cause the Here Comes Tomorrow bio makes it clear where the story began,
and in what Reality.
But .. as you wish.
I gotta go to bed now, but tomorrow we'll continue this,
I have all the material prepared, but I have to copy and paste too much, and it's late.
Until tomorrow, we'll leave it here for now,
but I'll definitely come back to this.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Trick is joining the band wagon, that's cool.I don't think they understand,
that every possible Future is created from withIN 616,
yes 616 is involved in that manner, this is how "What If" Universes are created.Someone in a parallel reality does something differently than the template in 616,
and this inadvertently instantly creates a What if/alternate diverged Universe.If the "someone" in the parallel reality continues on the same course as the template in 616,
then the Universe is never created, and thus remains a mirror of 616.So basically, Scott made a decision,
then Grant gives us a POSSIBLE What if scenario had that decision stayed the same,
but if Scott makes the right decision,
then that What If scenario is ensured to never exist,
even in a state of just possibilities,
because what made that What if scenario possible to begin with,
was the original decision, yes, in 616.So it could've been 616, but it was not, and never was.
Originally posted by Mr Master
DEEP in issue #154:
Phoenix intervenes by reaching into this moment 150 Years ago on 616 and changes Scott's mind:
What would have happened if she hadn't done this? Can you answer me that?
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou obviously don't read that much X-Men... And you have no clue how temperol mechanics works...
Last time, in Marvel,
the instant a story takes place in another timeframe,
it's automatically an alternate reality.
That's not trolling, that's not bashing. its just a pure statment of fact.
Age of apocalypse, when it was being released, after X-Men Alpha, until Bishop stopped Legion, was 616.
AS soon as Bishop stopped legion the Age of Apocalypse Universe BECAME 512. BEFORE he stoped him it was 616
Likewise, Sublime was 616 until Jean changed the past. As soon as she changed the past the sublime future BECAME 15104.
Originally posted by CreshoskOriginally posted by Mr Master
DEEP in issue #154:Phoenix intervenes by reaching into this moment 150 Years ago on 616 and changes Scott's mind:
What would have happened if she hadn't done this? Can you answer me that?
Cresh, if we can quickly has a discourse like gentlemen without petty put downs.
All possible Futures (alternate realities) are possibly the future of 616,
I said that from the beginning.
But while it's taking place simultaneously with 616,
ie.
Here Comes Tomorrow (year 2154)
Present 616 (2004)
It's located in a separate Timeline, not 616,
because 616 is still in the year 2004,
I mean, we haven't even asked ourselves,
what happened to the original 616 in 2004,
if it's also existing in 2154?
You feel me?
yes, I agree, it's a possible Future of 616,
but until the year 2154 comes around,
we can't know if 616 ever truly became Here Comes Tomorrow.
This is why all Alternate/diverged Futures are set in separate Realities,
even though yes, I agree,
they ALL represent what 616 might be in whatever Time they're occupying.
But until said whatever Time is reached,
and lands in the same predicament as the possible Future reality is existing in,
it's an alternate reality.
GOTG is good example,
they had and now have again an entire run based on one of 616's possible Futures,
but since the 31st century hasn't been reached yet,
and we don't know if 616 will end up being the GOTG future,
it's located in a separate Timeline: (691)
Originally posted by CreshoskYou obviously don't read that much X-Men...
And you have no clue how temperol mechanics works...
See, it's easy to just say stuff.
Originally posted by CreshoskThat's not trolling, that's not bashing. its just a pure statment of fact.
Again, easy.
Originally posted by CreshoskAge of apocalypse, when it was being released, after X-Men Alpha, until Bishop stopped Legion, was 616.
AS soon as Bishop stopped legion the Age of Apocalypse Universe BECAME 512. BEFORE he stoped him it was 616
Originally posted by CreshoskLikewise, Sublime was 616 until Jean changed the past.
As soon as she changed the past the sublime future BECAME 15104.
See, I can also do it in a respectful manner without telling you,
you don't comprehend Here Comes Tomorrow.
Originally posted by Mr MasterYeah if jean hadn't have existed at that point in time, Scott wouldn't have changed his mind and would have left.
There's a possibility that would've been 616's future.
That should be an obvious statement "Is she hadn't changed his mind, he wouldn't have changed his mind.
Originally posted by Mr MasterIt's not a petty put down to point out that your understanding of something is flawed.
Cresh, if we can quickly has a discourse like gentlemen without petty put downs.
You either have an ulterior motive stemming from the fact that there were no other heroes depicted, some hatred of jean and giving her credit she deserves. Or you simply didn't get what was going on.
Originally posted by Mr MasterAnd some of them BECOME 616 until the timeline is fixed.
All possible Futures (alternate realities) are possibly the future of 616,
I said that from the beginning.
When Legion went into the past and killed xavier, 616 became a place where Apocalypse ruled. And from X-Men Alpha until Bishop stopped legion was 616, as soon as Bishop stopped legion the age of apocalypse universe BECAME 512
Like wise with Days of the Future past. 616 was going to become that future ruled by sentinals until Rachel sent Kate into her past self and stopped kelly from being assassinated. As soon as he was NOT assassinated, the days of the future past BECAME 811
Just like this. Here comes tomorrow was 616 until Jean changed scotts mind and THAT is when it became 15104.
They've done this several times in the X-Men comics.
Just like with the House of M. Wanda rewrote the 616 universe. Totally recreated it. Jubilee was best friends with Dust in that universe.
However that universe is not 616 currently its 58163 where Jubilee and Dust are best friends.
Does that mean that it was NEVER 616?
Nope. Just that its not any longer.
Same story. House of M, Days of the future Past, Age of Apocalypse, Here comes tomorrow.
Each was 616, until an event changed it. "No more mutants", Kelly lives, Xavier lives, Scott stays.
Originally posted by Mr MasterNo, because you're disregarding on panel evidence as well as past events where the same thing happens, 616 is different until something fixes it.
But while it's taking place simultaneously with 616,ie.
Here Comes Tomorrow (year 2154)
Present 616 (2004)It's located in a separate Timeline, not 616,
because 616 is still in the year 2004,I mean, we haven't even asked ourselves,
what happened to the original 616 in 2004,
if it's also existing in 2154?You feel me?
Originally posted by Mr MasterNot anymore its not.
yes, I agree, it's a possible Future of 616,
Originally posted by Mr MasterActually we do know. It won't be. Its not possible because what lead down that path, was changed. The divergence point was in 2004. Jean forced Scott to stay, thus meaning 616 didn't start down that path of events.
but until the year 2154 comes around,
we can't know if 616 ever truly became Here Comes Tomorrow.
Originally posted by Mr MasterNope. Alot of the diverged timelines have been prevented, even if they did occur.
This is why all Alternate/diverged Futures are set in separate Realities,
even though yes, I agree,
they ALL represent what 616 might be in whatever Time they're occupying.
Yes, in 616 2154 occured., just because its not 2154 in our reality does not mean that it can't be shown in another reality as 2154.
But then it was unmade when the change took place.
Originally posted by Mr MasterIt's already an alternate reality NOW. But alternate realities NOW doesn't meant that they were never 616...
But until said whatever Time is reached,
and lands in the same predicament as the possible Future reality is existing in,
it's an alternate reality.
Originally posted by Mr Master
GOTG is good example,
they had and now have again an entire run based on one of 616's possible Futures,
but since the 31st century hasn't been reached yet,
and we don't know if 616 will end up being the GOTG future,
it's located in a separate Timeline: (691)
Days of the future past now 811, age of apocalypse now 512, House of M now 58163. Here comes tomorrow now 15104.
they WERE 616. they are not 616 NOW.
Originally posted by Mr MasterProblem is I'm not just saying it. Its true.
You obviously don't read Marvel comics concerning its Cosmology ...
And you have no clue how it's Cosmology works...
See, it's easy to just say stuff.
Originally posted by Mr MasterNope, its completely false.
That's not trolling, that's not bashing. its just a pure statment of fact.
Originally posted by Mr MasterNot in the slightest.
Again, easy.Inconsequential to Here Comes Tomorrow.
We're talking about how marvel's temporal mechanics work, so pointing out other temporal mechanics that have occurred is quite relevant.
Other wise that's like saying that Wolverine beating hand ninjas is inconsequential to beating hydra agents.
Or wolverine taking a glock shot to the gut is inconsequential to taking submachine gun fire.
Originally posted by Mr MasterSorry, but that's just the way it is.. you can disagree with ice being cold if you want... doesn't make sense. But I can't stop you.
As you wish, but I disagree.
Originally posted by Mr MasterWell, you don't. Sorry.
See, I can also do it in a respectful manner without telling you,
you don't comprehend Here Comes Tomorrow.
