Originally posted by Creshosk
Which wasn't effected by Wanda's "No more mutants" "omniverse" rending chaos wave. Even though 811 and 512 were.Interesting... no?
I never thought about it. Wasn't it thought Wanda effected all realities with it?
And actually, it wasn't effected at slightest.
Originally posted by Mindset
Well not even all 616 was effected, so who knows. 🙂
But the difference with 616, it was protected, those mutants who weren't effected was because they were protected, otherwise, it would have been.
Originally posted by XplosiveI never thought about it. Wasn't it thought Wanda effected all realities with it?
Originally posted by XplosiveBut the difference with 616, it was protected, those mutants who weren't effected was because they were protected, otherwise, it would have been.
No need to second guess Wanda,
unlike other hyperbole concerning 616 inthis thread,
we can SEE the Reality 616 being stated by # on panel! 🙂
First I hope yall don't think I'm placing Phoenix below Universal status, because I'm not.
Pheonix has always been an absolute Universal power,
this I know and agree with.
Now, onto the debate:
From my perspective, based on what I read On Panel and Bios:
Reality 15104 is a possible Future of 616. (No Future is definite in Marvel)
Scott leaves the X-Men and Emma and dies and "Here Comes Tomorrow" is created.
Jean amputated the Future of Reality 15104
in order to disinfect said Future from Sublime,
the Future was never discarded,
we know this because Jean has it in her hands when she first enters the WHR
Now this act damaged the Future she amputated,
Jean then Repaired This amputated Future withIN the WHR atomically.
Then Reality 15104 (yes, a Universe) itself manifested in her hands,
but, though it was a functioning Universe, it was wounded.
Why?
Because it's Future was still the same (without Sublime though)
that Future being the finality of "Here Comes Tomorrow"
(like Future self of Wolvy and others who died)
So, in order to "Heal" (change) the outcome of Reality 15104,
Jean (withIN the WHR) changed Scott's mind about the X-Men and Emma on 616,
thus, This possible Future (Reality 15104) is altered
I will submit, I have no idea whether or not 15104 is still in existence,
with happy alternate X-Men running around.
Or, 15104 was completely nullified by the alteration.
There's simply no indication, that I know of, either way.
but one of the Two, did occur.
This is IMO. 🙂
.... Now for the On Panel, official handbook supported proof below .....
The current Marvel Universe Timeline
goes hand in hand with the "Real World's" Timeline.
If it's 2008 in the real World, it's 2008 in the current/Present Marvel Comics Universe.
So any moment before or after the Year 2008, is located in a separate Timeline.
Btw. Concerning Here Comes Tomorrow:
Is 616 mentioned anywhere?
Is the Prime reality mentioned anywhere?
Is Eternity mentioned anywhere?
Did the LT or any Cosmic guardian appear, because of Jean endangering 616?
NOT AT ALL!!!!!
When 616's entirety is threatened, someone of Cosmic significance pops up,
either LT/Eternity/Roma/Galactus/Watchers ... or others,
yet, NOT a single soul came through.
While Jean was still sleeping in her Egg ...
Reality 15104 was up and running! .
.................................................................................
Reality 15104
definitely started in #150
(Phoenix was still in her incubation Egg at this point)
She had just died one page prior,
when Magneto/Xorn fried her to death
and exploded the actual Phoenix Force itself into Billions of pieces) - Canon!
"Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104 began in issue#150)
.................................................................................
Here's the On Panel verification:
.................................................................................
Jean dies on page 30 of New-Xmen #150
.................................................................................
Page 31 of New-Xmen #150 - and 150 YEARS have passed (funny)
we are in Reality 15104:
.................................................................................
Page 32 of New X-Men #150 - Jean, sleeping like a baby in her EGG!
.................................................................................
Page 01 in New X-Men #151 - starts at 150 Years in the Future (Reality 15104)
..........................................................................................
..........................................................................................
Reality 15104 manifested in Jean's hands.
Jean has no idea what it is, or what to do with it:
Jean:
"Did I have to fix something that was dying? ... WHAT IS IT?"
The Force:
"A badly wounded orphan universe ... Phoenix work."
..................................................................................................
Ok ... so WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? (Jean asks too, with Reality 15104 in her hands) 🙂
Jean:
"But ... but WHAT's THAT supposed to mean?"
Jean is TOLD WHAT THAT MEANS:
Force:
"That Henry's (Beast) heart is broken ...
that Scott succumbs to loneliness and doubt"
Jean:
"Are these words FROM the FUTURE?" .... ✅ (reality 15104 is still in her hands)
WHAT DOES Jean ASK? ...
..................................................................................................
Of course they're from this possible Future, (reality 15104)
because those are the results of the "Here Comes Tomorrow" Future:
..................................................................................................
Henry's frustration lead to him unwittingly creating Sublime,
and Scott's loneliness (no Emma) and doubt (leaving the X-Men)
was what literally created "Here Comes Tomorrow"
..................................................................................................
Quentin tells Jean how to make Reality 15104 grow a new Future:
"to REPLACE the one you just cut away" (amputated)
..................................................................................................
Because as we Know it was Reality 15104's Future she cut away:
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed/B the Alternate Future ... [B]OF ... Reality - 15104"
✅ ... (it should end here, but wait ... there's more)
..................................................................................................
..................................................................................................
According to some, this is supposed to be 616,
well we already know it isn't, but let's entertain the thought.
Like how, Quentin refers to This Reality as if it were insignificant:
"If it was me, I'd just let it die"
Hmm, I'll just let the Prime Reality ... (616) ... (foundation of all Creation) ... die. dontgetit
Enough? ... Enough right?
..................................................................................................
Still the SAME Reality that was always in her hands since,
"Did I have to fix something that was dying? ... WHAT IS IT?"
Now Jean helps it grow a "New Future" like Quentin said,
to "REPLACE" the one she cut away, like Quentin said word for word.
She mind rapes Scott on 616 from withIN the WHR,
and as yall saw,
even Betsy can connect with her Alternates across TimelineS with a thought,
withOUT the need to manifest said Realities they reside in.
..................................................................................................
..................................................................................................
And what does Jean do?
What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"
Jean went into the Past, changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.
According to Grant Morrison: (the Writer of this arc)
(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)
..................................................................................................
On Panel verification:
I guess ol' MORRISON wasn't lying about the Story HE CREATED.
..................................................................................................
Notice the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio literally states ...
... IT WAS Scott's decision that Altered Reality 15104 ...
"Letting go of Cyclops and willing him to live ...
In the modern era of Earth-616 ...
Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the X Institute ...
unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future ...
would Not come to fruition" ...
.................................................................................
And cats got her manipulating the atoms of 616 ... 😆
What?
To change Scott's mind? ... You joking right?
Bah, whatever, Grant Morrison (Writer/Creator) himself told us what happened EXACTLY!!!!
According to Grant Morrison: (the Writer of this arc)
"It was Scott's decision to walk away from Emma
that set the apocalyptic events of 'Here Comes Tomorrow' in motion
(Scott inadvertantly Created Reality 15104 withy a decision)
and Jean made sure that Future would never take place"
HOW WILL Jean Do This?
(what I've always said)
"By making him stay with Emma instead" .... ✅
(write a letter to Morrison and tell em your disagreements with his work.
.................................................................................
(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)
Another perspective with the same basic scans:
.................................................................................
Also, I just noticed something that will definitely cement my PostS as Fact!
Notice this yall:
.................................................................................
We know ... Jean damaged Reality 15104's Future by amputating said Future right:
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"
.................................................................................
Jean did this in order to disinfect the Future of Sublime right:
"She then extracted Sublime's essence from the Beast's body,
disinfecting the entire Future Reality" (15104)
.................................................................................
As you continue to read this, we SEE the SAME Future Reality Jean disinfected,
is the SAME Future Reality she healed
by going to the Past and forcing Scott to change his mind. (As I presented - above postS)
It never changes from 15104 to 616 ... that's a misinterpretation. ✅
Yall CAN READ it for yourselves right there. 👆
.................................................................................
Reality 15104's Future gets "amputated/disinfected" and "damaged"
.................................................................................
Reality 15104's Future gets Repaired atomically withIN the WHR (Hospital for Timelines)
"Hospital White Hot"
"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once ian't as easy as it sounds,
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"
.................................................................................
Now Reality 15104 itself appears on the scene:
(and it's the SAME Reality to the very end in her hand) ... I NEVER saw a switch!!!!
The ONLY Reality that was "disinfected" ...
(by amputating it's Future) 🙂
.........................
the ONLY Reality Jean heals "symbolically" (like the Official Bio states)
(by reaching into the Past and changing Scott's mind) ... like the Bio and Morrison state.
.................................................................................
As we can see,
Jean never discarded the Future, she only repaired it atomically,
Reality 15104 was still the same possible "horrific Future" even after it's Future "Repair"
but by Scott changing his mind,
Reality 15104 either continues a separate existence from the one stained with Sublime,
or simply ceases to exist,
since it was Scott's decision in the first place that literally Created it.
.................................................................................
Imagine the Prime Reality, foundation of the Omniverse, core of the Multiverse,
as some cheesy "orphan universe" stranded from the Multiverse.
That's crazy yall, and basically impossible.
Or better yet,
imagine the Prime Reality just being left to DIE, like Quentin suggested doing.
Is this a joke?
.........................................................................................
I agree that 15104 is a "possible future" of 616,
like the many, many other "possible" Futures.
To name a few ...
2099,
GOTG (31st Century)
Bishop's Timeline,
Cable (Earth 4935)
Kang (Earth-6311)
Korvac (Earth-691)
Stryfe (Earth-4935
Ahab-Nimrod-Marvel Girl (Earth-811)
Holocaust-X-Man (Earth 295)
Meh, this arc takes place in a 616 Timeline in the year 3099:
That's FAR beyond Scott's 2154.
(so which is the true, direct Future? .... Yea I know, take your pick.
.........................................................................................
But seriously what are we ultimately left with ...
.........................................................................................
My On Panel, Bio corroborated, Grant Morrison confirmed Proof is undeniable.
It's the SAME Universe/Timeline that Phoenix disinfected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was disconnected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that houses a "broken hearted Beast"
an "Emma leaving, X-Men quitting" Cyclops. (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline Jean "symbolically waters with her heart's blood" (15104)
(by reaching into the Past and changing Scott's mind)
Which is an effortless Feat withIN the WHR (beyond Space/Time)
Betsy (withIN the WHR) connecting to ALL her Alternates with a thought:
.........................................................................................
Oh, check this out ...
.........................................................................................
"Here's Warlock using the Soul Gem
to Alter the Future of the 616 Reality
by destroying the Timeline of the Magus"
So I guess it's also Warlock's fault we can read Marvel comics nowadays. 😆
.........................................................................................
.........................................................................................
No one time travelled in HCT,
this is why the story is situated in an Alternate. Timeline.
This is the thing,
if a story begins in a separate point in Time (whether it's the Future OR Past)
said story is located in a separate Timeline.
.........................................................................................
There's no assurance that 616 would ever become 15104.
For there's a slew of Realities taking place Far beyond 150 years as we speak,
all these Realities are "Possible Future Timelines"
.........................................................................................
========= LIKE THIS ONE YALL =============
Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)
"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...
The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"
.........................................................................................
We'll never know until the time comes,
this is why these Timelines are enclosed in their own Reality apart from the 616 Universe.
Jean simply went into the Past,
which is easily accomplished withIN the WHR (outside of Space/Time)
Jean then mind rapes Scott,
and Scott's decision alters the Future of Reality 15104.
The power was ALL in Scott's decision.
This is what Morrison thought of that Reality, through the eyes of Quintin:
"If it was me, I'd just let it die"
.............................................................................
If that was 616,
what Quintin is daring to state is:
"if it was me, I'd just let ALL of Marvel die"
.............................................................................
WHY?
.............................................................................
616 dies, everything dies:
.....................................................................................................
Uatu and the Watcher realized
that nanoseconds after the 616 Reality dies,
the Omniverse will die:
"After my last report however, we were forced to reinspect our fundamental principles.
We concluded that the destruction of This Universe,
while still bounded by the speed of light,
would occur within an expanding simultaneity, which would,
paratemporally, have begun immediately following the initial
nanoseconds of This Universe.
And then it would Expand outward from This Universe ...
we call it 616 ... to engulf All Others ... "
..................................................................................
Dr Stange is confused with the Uatu's explanation,
so Uatu tells him in plain engilsh the fact concerning the significance
of the 616 Reality:
Dr Strange says,
"I do not understand ... please explain more simply"
Uatu explains more simply,
"If your World Dies now, Stephen, it will take Everything with it.
Not only This Universe (616) but All the Other UniverseS as well.
Everything there is, will End.
Or rather put it even more simply, Everything will never have been"
..................................................................................
.........................................................................................
Concerning this arc,
it always dealt with Reality 15104 from the very beginning.
.........................................................................................
My On Panel, Bio corroborated, Grant Morrison confirmed Proof is undeniable.
It was Reality/Timeline 15104 (150 years in the Future) all along:
It's the SAME Universe/Timeline that Phoenix disinfected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was disconnected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was repaired atomically (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that houses a "broken hearted Beast"
an "Emma leaving, X-Men quitting" dead Cyclops. (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline - a wounded orphan because of "Here Comes Tomorrow"
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline Jean "symbolically waters with her heart's blood" (15104)
(by reaching into the Past and changing Scott's mind)
Finally,
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that was altered (15104)
by Scott changing his mind, in it's pre-diverged state.
Meh, the bottomline is,
if it's a point in Time taking place in the Future,
then it's another Timeline. (simple as that)
Simple physics tell us that two separate points in Time,
cannot occupy the same space. (Marvel follows this fact)
This is why Here Comes Tomorrow sets off in the final pages of New X-Men #150:
"Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104 began in issue#150)
Yall seen it enough times.
.........................................................................................
Or I can pose this question:
Where is/was the Present-day (year 2004 at the time) 616 Universe,
while Here Comes Tomorrow was taking place 150 years later?
Surely you can't be suggesting,
that the 616 Timeline was existing simultaneously in the Present and Future.
I mean, that's the whole point of Timelines,
to separate points in Time.
.........................................................................................
Either you're in the Present (current 616 Timeline)
or you're in the Past/Future (Other Timelines)
Like GOTG for instance,
they reside in Reality 691 (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)
Why is the Future or Past of 616 located in separate Timeline? (good question)
Because TWO separate points in Time can NOT occupy the same space.
(simple answer with simple physics)
Notice the term ... "Time ... line"
(a designation in a line representing separate points in Time)
150 Years into the Future of 616 is, well ... 150 years beyond the Present,
which is exactly why,
the instant Morrison decided to place his story in the Future,
he was forced to locate the designation of said story in a separate Timeline.
In fact, in Marvel Comics,
when one travels to the Past or the Future,
one automatically inadvertently CREATES a separate Universe, with a separate History,
the instant they make a move withIN the Spatial Axis of the Past or the Future:
.........................................................................................
In Fact, every What if Universe
is created in the same exact fashion as the Future Reality of Here Comes Tomorrow (15104)
As we can see, a single being or two,
can inadvertently CREATE an entire separate Universe,
with a simple decision, just like Scott in Here Comes Tomorrow.
.........................................................................................
In fact, according to Quasar & Uatu,
ALL these "Diverged Realities" like Here Comes Tomorrow,
are not even real Universes,
in fact, they are literally "might have beens"
that at best,
shed some light on why things are the way they are in the Real Universe. (616)
.........................................................................................
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HOLY!!! ... LOOK at what I just DISCOVERED!!!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
.........................................................................................
This explains WHY Here Comes Tomorrow
has absolutely NOTHING to do with 616 Jean WC Phoenix in her 2008 Bio or any bio.
In fact, HCT is completely ignored!
1. "Jean was killed (by Xorneto)
by a lethal EMP that shattered the PF into billions of pieces."
2. "While incubating in the WHR,
the Force was later ripped back to reality by a Shiar device,
that forcibly reconstituted it"
3. "The Force fell to Earth .. it searched for Jean and, finding her dead"
.........................................................................................
Finding her DEAD! ... LOL! ...
I thought Jean was manipulating 616 in Here Comes Tomorrow,
not even 15104 evidently... lol,
I thought Jean was at-least alive during Here Comes Tomorrow.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
.........................................................................................
On Panel verification:
.........................................................................................
(New X-Men #150) ... right before it transitions in What If world.
1:
Jean (almighty Phoenix)
getting murdered by a freakin Electric Magnetic Pulse,
and the Force itself getting blown into Billions of pieces by said EMP:
(Endsong #1)
The embodiment of the Phoenix Force,
recognized it's been blown into Billions of pieces by an EMP:
.........................................................................................
(Endsong #1)
2:
Shiar device did in fact rip it back to reality, and forced it's reconstitution:
.........................................................................................
(Endsong #1)
3:
Jean was still in her grave, DEAD as a door nail, from the EMP
the Force was still incubating healing from the EMP
yet somehow between the EMP and Endsong Jean was manipulating 616 ... LOL!!!
actually, never happened.
........................................................................................
Wow, had I known this before, I would've saved my self a lot of time.
Here Comes Tomorrow?
Ha! ... HCT has nothing do to with 616 Jean,
616 Jean was in a grave, DEAD!
HCT has nothing to do with the Phoenix Force of the 616 Universe,
the 616 Phoenix Force was still healing (incubating in fact) in the WHR,
which means it was completely in-affective.
thankyou
house of M wanda
jammie braddock
mad jim jaspers
franklin richards
phyla richards{maybe}
x man
cable
hyperstorm
jean grey
strife
legion
proteus
vulcan
alpha the ultimate mutant
red son gambit
apocalypse
magneto
xavier
p.s jammie braddock, mad jim jaspers and hyperstorm are all plot devices to a certain extent, whose mutant powers are not specifically stated to be the most powerful or explained much, amd wildly jump without explanations to marvel omniversal levels. houise of M wanda is similar but atleast her powers are better defined and explained. consistantly, franklin richards would have to be the strongest followed by nate grey then cable, then jean grey , but ofcourse, the whole phoenix vs mutant power things comes in with jean.
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou mean other than the fact that it still has mutants in it who keep popping up.. Like Jubilee who in 616 was Depowered...
Yes, Wanda tore down the entire Omniverse,
there's no proof whatsoever that the Ultimate Universe, survived the Chaos Wave,
anyone who claims otherwise, is simply lying.
No I'm not lying, you're reported though. 🙂
Oh and I didn't read all that spam... You really should have orginized your thoughts better and instead of picture links just the regular kind could have fit more in ...
Aslo remember it took place 150 years in the future. So if it wasn't 616 jean who was it?
dur
Originally posted by Mr Master
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++HOLY!!! ... LOOK at what I just DISCOVERED!!!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
.........................................................................................
[b]This explains WHY Here Comes Tomorrow
has absolutely NOTHING to do with 616 Jean WC Phoenix in her 2008 Bio or any bio.In fact, HCT is completely ignored!
1. "Jean was killed (by Xorneto)
by a lethal EMP that shattered the PF into billions of pieces."2. "While incubating in the WHR,
the Force was later ripped back to reality by a Shiar device,
that forcibly reconstituted it"3. "The Force fell to Earth .. it searched for Jean and, finding her dead"
.........................................................................................
Finding her DEAD! ... LOL! ...
I thought Jean was manipulating 616 in Here Comes Tomorrow,
not even 15104 evidently... lol,
I thought Jean was at-least alive during Here Comes Tomorrow.HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
.........................................................................................
On Panel verification:
.........................................................................................
(New X-Men #150) ... right before it transitions in What If world.
1:
Jean (almighty Phoenix)
getting murdered by a freakin Electric Magnetic Pulse,
and the Force itself getting blown into Billions of pieces by said EMP:(Endsong #1)
The embodiment of the Phoenix Force,
recognized it's been blown into Billions of pieces by an EMP:.........................................................................................
(Endsong #1)
2:
Shiar device did in fact rip it back to reality, and forced it's reconstitution:
.........................................................................................
(Endsong #1)
3:
Jean was still in her grave, DEAD as a door nail, from the EMP
the Force was still incubating healing from the EMP
yet somehow between the EMP and Endsong Jean was manipulating 616 ... LOL!!!
actually, never happened.........................................................................................
Wow, had I known this before, I would've saved my self a lot of time.
Here Comes Tomorrow?
Ha! ... HCT has nothing do to with 616 Jean,
616 Jean was in a grave, DEAD!
HCT has nothing to do with the Phoenix Force of the 616 Universe,
the 616 Phoenix Force was still healing (incubating in fact) in the WHR,
which means it was completely in-affective.thankyou [/B]
😆 Great find. Another enjoyable read. So basically Here Comes To Tomorrow was either retconned or it's just a possible future. LOL.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool, I respect that, and I disagree that Morrison supports your perspective.Just knowing about Scott,
and even the X-Men doesn't define how Marvel's cosmology works.Last time, in Marvel,
the instant a story takes place in another timeframe,
it's automatically an alternate reality.That's a Marvel fact! ... and I'll prove it tomorrow. (then WHAT?)
but you should know that
cause the Here Comes Tomorrow bio makes it clear where the story began,
and in what Reality.But .. as you wish.
I gotta go to bed now, but tomorrow we'll continue this,
I have all the material prepared, but I have to copy and paste too much, and it's late.Until tomorrow, we'll leave it here for now,
but I'll definitely come back to this.
i'm not saying its not an alternate timeline. im just saying it became one AFTER jean's interference...
