Hulk and Juggernaut versus Darkseid and Thanos in Pure Slugfest Battle

Started by Ptr_Grifin7 pages
Ptr_Grifin What?

Originally posted by Accel
Except Hulk being KOed by a snake is nothing like saying Juggernaut can be or has been hurt with enough physical force, espceially consider one has direct contradictions to it happening while the other one doesn't.

And this was written by the same guy who stated that his durability is mostly derived form his shield, which pretty much suggests Cain had his shield up at the time he took that blast.

In neither comic did it flat out state that Juggernaut's durability is tied to his force field. I went back and read the second fight and his hammer negated all magic, so it could have also taken about from his bodies ability to take hits. Noticed that he didn't have any actual injuries. His brain was jarred.

So if both fights with Thor were written by the same guy, how is one PIS and not the other?

I never claimed one was PIS and the other wasn't. But in that first fight nothing happened out of the ordinary to call PIS.

And one occasion is still part of Cain’s history.

I never said Cy actually gave him the power up. You said "History has shown", which it hasn't. This was like it has happened more than once. I replied that if it were true then it only happened once.

Even during 8th Day, Cain himself even stated that something else made his stronger; nothing about his own will.

Here is the iffy part. Cain could have meant that something is making him want to get to his target. And in wanting it Cain got stronger. Not because Cy gave him more strength.

Which can still be interpreted that Cain has to want power badly enough before Cyttorak gives it to him. Again, Cain’s never showed the ability to summon power under his own will before, no matter what he wanted to accomplish, so why would he gain that ability all of a sudden?

The power could have always been there for Cain to take. But sense he activated the gem earlier and the mind control didn't take over, he never learned how to use the power properly.

It was also mentioned in a comic in the 70's that Cain said he was getting stronger while fighting the Hulk.

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
In neither comic did it flat out state that Juggernaut's durability is tied to his force field. I went back and read the second fight and his hammer negated all magic, so it could have also taken about from his bodies ability to take hits.

Yes it is. In the third panel here, Thor clearly states he takes away Cain’s shield (i.e. his invulnerability). The writer was clearly referring to the shield itself as the mystical energy that Thor canceled out.

If it negated Cain’s enchantment completely, he would have just changed back to normal.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Noticed that he didn't have any actual injuries. His brain was jarred.

Lots of comic characters don’t injuries even when they were knocked out. Heck, this was around the time when people could get shot and no injuries were visisible.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I never claimed one was PIS and the other wasn't. But in that first fight nothing happened out of the ordinary to call PIS.

You mean except for taking a Godblast that even Celetsials can’t handle?

And how does the first fight hold any precedent over the second? Because the writer mistakenly refers to Cain as a mutant the second time? That’s not really enough to say one fight counts and the other doesn’t.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Here is the iffy part. Cain could have meant that something is making him want to get to his target. And in wanting it Cain got stronger. Not because Cy gave him more strength.

Except, in context, a statement like that makes no sense. Cain was responding to Thor’s claims that he was stronger and something made him like that.

If he was responding to any claims of how he was crazy or something when he made that statement, then it would make sense.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
The power could have always been there for Cain to take. But sense he activated the gem earlier and the mind control didn't take over, he never learned how to use the power properly.

Which is nice, but that’s pure speculation. Until he actually shows the ability to summon any of it under his own will, any claims that he can do so are pure heresy. So far, there’s evidence pointing to Cyttorak powering Cain up and nothing to prove Cain can simply summon it himself.

Using the gem improperly and actually wanting more power to, say, get out of a mountain that you’re stuck in are two completely different things.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
It was mentioned in a comic in the 70's that Cain said he was getting stronger.

Which could easily be Cain talking smack, especially since he believed Hulk was getting weaker. If we were to accept characters’ statements like that so easily, Hulk would be stronger than the Living Tribunal.

Ptr_Grifin What?
Originally posted by Accel
Yes it is. In the third panel here, Thor clearly states he takes away Cain’s shield (i.e. his invulnerability). The writer was clearly referring to the shield itself as the mystical energy that Thor canceled out.

It never said Cains indestructibility is ONLY tied to his shield. I know it is hinting to him not being able to get hurt while it is up. But while it was down, in that comic, he never even got a scratch. Again looking back at the comic Cain was only dazed.

If it negated Cain’s enchantment completely, he would have just changed back to normal.

Speculation. When Cain lost his powers because he of his defiance of who he is, he didn't lose them all. Plus the Gem said, "Forevermore a Human Juggernaut", so he couldn't really lose all that power.

Lots of comic characters don’t injuries even when they were knocked out. Heck, this was around the time when people could get shot and no injuries were visisible.

Thor had injuries and scratches. The artist didn't ignore Juggernaut, he didn't give him injures because he couldn't.

And how does the first fight hold any precedent over the second? Because the writer mistakenly refers to Cain as a mutant the second time? That’s not really enough to say one fight counts and the other doesn’t.

I never said it did. You were the first one to mention the Godblast, not I. I never said one fight counts and the other doesn't. I never claimed PIS on the first fight because there isn't reason for me to. I was talking about the 2nd fight.

Except, in context, a statement like that makes no sense. Cain was responding to Thor’s claims that he was stronger and something made him like that.

Like you said earlier, it could have been talk. Thor says alot of funny things and sometimes they are out of context and don't make sense. Cain being drawn under the spell is what was supposed to happen, that is what the Juggernaut is supposed to be.

Which could easily be Cain talking smack, especially since he believed Hulk was getting weaker. If we were to accept characters’ statements like that so easily, Hulk would be stronger than the Living Tribunal.

You're getting hypocritical. So everything Thor says is absolutely true, and everything Cain says is smack?

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
It never said Cains indestructibility is ONLY tied to his shield. I know it is hinting to him not being able to get hurt while it is up. But while it was down, in that comic, he never even got a scratch. Again looking back at the comic Cain was only dazed.

But he was clearly without his invulnerability and the fact that he was dazed in the first place clearly supports the idea that he’s only extremely durable when his shield’s up.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Speculation. When Cain lost his powers because he of his defiance of who he is, he didn't lose them all. Plus the Gem said, "Forevermore a Human Juggernaut", so he couldn't really lose all that power.

Granted, but then you Cain remarking that his strength remains, which strengthens that Thor couldn’t have cut him off the same way Cyttorak did. Instead, it only seems to support the idea that he limited Cain’s invulnerability by taking away his shield.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Thor had injuries and scratches. The artist didn't ignore Juggernaut, he didn't give him injures because he couldn't.

Thor’s usually shown more vulnerable than most top-tiers. My point is that no visible injuries doesn’t automatically mean that a character is not hurt.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I never said it did. You were the first one to mention the Godblast, not I. I never said one fight counts and the other doesn't. I never claimed PIS on the first fight because there isn't reason for me to. I was talking about the 2nd fight.

And there's nothing to claim PIS about the second fight either mainly becatuse there’s never been any thing to contradict the shield/invulnerability relationship.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Like you said earlier, it could have been talk. Thor says alot of funny things and sometimes they are out of context and don't make sense. Cain being drawn under the spell is what was supposed to happen, that is what the Juggernaut is supposed to be.

Like what? Thor saying Cain is stronger and Cain responding that something else made him that way is pretty much cut and dry that something else made him that way. There’s really no way around it.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You're getting hypocritical. So everything Thor says is absolutely true, and everything Cain says is smack?

There’s a big difference in Thor saying how one of his powers work (and Cain agreeing to it) and a brawler simply saying “I’m stronger than you are.”

Ptr_Grifin What?

That second fight and the fact that it was implied that the shield is the source of his indestructibility is PIS. You are probably one of few if any that think that way. Cain has been said in comics and by writers that he is basically indestructible. And Thors punches aren't going to affect him even with out his shield. It was the only way for the writer to have Thor "win"

Cain said something is drawing me there and I will march through anything to get through it. He could have easily been referring to him wanting to get there and in doing so got stronger. Remember this is the way Juggernaut is supposed to be.

Here is something else to help out my arguement.

This is something from the EDITORS which you seem to be putting so much trust into right now.

I am done for now, it is 4:45 a.m.

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
That second fight and the fact that it was implied that the shield is the source of his indestructibility is PIS.

Based on what?
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Cain has been said in comics and by writers that he is basically indestructible.

Specific examples? Preferably something that regards whether or not his shield is needed?
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
And Thors punches aren't going to affect him even with out his shield.

And yet, they clearly did.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Cain said something is drawing me there and I will march through anything to get through it. He could have easily been referring to him wanting to get there and in doing so got stronger.

Except that statement you just quoted has absolutely nothing to do with him commenting about his own strength. Him saying "something made me this way” (responding to Thor’s claim about his increased strength) does.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Remember this is the way Juggernaut is supposed to be.

What, someone with limitless strength and who’s invulnerable with out his shield?

Again, I ask, based on what?

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
This is something from the EDITORS which you seem to be putting so much trust into right now.

I never said any thing regarding editors, but around the time of that mailing, editors would put a message telling readers to send in their own letters if they don’t agree with any assessments and sway the editors’ opinions. What this means is, if I had written a letter to them at the time, I coulc have easily swayed their opinion of the matter.

Hardly concrete evidence of any thing.

Overall, there’s basically nothing that I’ve witnessed beyond conjecture that Cain is completely invulnerable without his shield and that he can summon limitless strength under his own will and there is evidence supporting the contrary.

Ptr_Grifin What?

Based on what?

The fact that other than the times in that those Spidey and Thor comics he hasn't used his shield. He took a Planet splitting blast from Cyclops and didn't budge he laughed it off.

And yet, they clearly did.

And yet things like Hulk losing to a 20 foot snake and losing to Spider-Man the way he did and it shouldn't have happened. Are you saying that Thor punches that much harder than Hulk? Every time Juggs and Hulk have fought, there was no shield.

What, someone with limitless strength and who’s invulnerable with out his shield?

Read the 8th Day arc again. This is what was supposed to happen. The Cain that beat down Thor and had a fight with a fellow exemplar, was the greatest fury ever unleashed on Earth, was the way Juggernaut was supposed to be. This also happened without his shield.

I never said any thing regarding editors, but around the time of that mailing, editors would put a message telling readers to send in their own letters if they don’t agree with any assessments and sway the editors’ opinions. What this means is, if I had written a letter to them at the time, I coulc have easily swayed their opinion of the matter.

You mentioned Defalco, who was an editor in the Spidey comic. And no you cannot sway the editors opinions. After the War Hulk comic the editor had to correct some of the Hulk fans. I don't know where you get that you could have easily swayed their opinion.

SpearofDestiny Perfection

If Onslaught was able to pwn Juggernaut in one move, I don't see why Thanos and Darksied can't pimp slap him to oblivion

Ptr_Grifin What?
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
If Onslaught was able to pwn Juggernaut in one move, I don't see why Thanos and Darksied can't pimp slap him to oblivion

That was a weakened Juggernaut. I am not saying he would have won.

For info on that read Malibu's run on the All New Exiles, in which Cain was sent to a different dimension where his power was reduced greatly along with everyone else in that dimension.

PRAYERRUN Senior Member

I don't see Hulk dieing at all unless they can revert him back too banner. otherwise this is pretty stalemate.

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
The fact that other than the times in that those Spidey and Thor comics he hasn't used his shield.

Can you prove that? It’s not like he has to say “Shield Up!” or any thing to make it come up. He could simply just put it up whenever he needs to take damage.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
He took a Planet splitting blast from Cyclops and didn't budge he laughed it off.

Hulk’s taken Cyke’s strongest blasts with the same result on more than occasion. He must be indestructible too.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
And yet things like Hulk losing to a 20 foot snake and losing to Spider-Man the way he did and it shouldn't have happened.

Difference is that Hulk actually has loads upon loads of durability feats that contradict those. What concrete showings does Juggernaut have to contradict that his invulnerability is linked to his shield? None.

In fact, we actually have at least some evidence that it is.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Are you saying that Thor punches that much harder than Hulk? Every time Juggs and Hulk have fought, there was no shield.

Again, how do you know? Because he didn’t deliberately say?

Cain traded blows with Thor in their first fight, written by the same guy who wrote their second fight (Cain even remarks how his shield make Thor’s attacks useless), so clearly this writer seemed to believe somewhat that Cain could still fight up close with it up.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Read the 8th Day arc again. This is what was supposed to happen. The Cain that beat down Thor and had a fight with a fellow exemplar, was the greatest fury ever unleashed on Earth, was the way Juggernaut was supposed to be.

It was supposed to happen because Cyttorak clearly powered him up, as was evidently stated by Cain himself. Any thing happening after that is pretty moot since it clearly wasn't under Cain's normal power any more than insane crap Spider-Man did when he had the Captain Universe powers.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
This also happened without his shield.

And when he was powered up. Whoopdy doo.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You mentioned Defalco, who was an editor in the Spidey comic. And no you cannot sway the editors opinions. After the War Hulk comic the editor had to correct some of the Hulk fans. I don't know where you get that you could have easily swayed their opinion.

I mentioned DeFalco who wrote both of those first two fights between Juggernaut and Thor. If his idea of Juggernaut’s durability is suspect based on one little mistake of referring to Cain as a mutant, then the feat where Juggernaut performs his greatest durability feat of withstanding the Godblast loses all credibility as well, sicne apparently, the guy could just as easily overestimated his durability there.

Otherwise, this same guy, who clearly believes that Cain’s durability is tied to his shield, had Cain duke it out with Thor, indicating that Cain is capable of going head to head with someone with the shield on.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
And no you cannot sway the editors opinions. After the War Hulk comic the editor had to correct some of the Hulk fans. I don't know where you get that you could have easily swayed their opinion.

Because at the end of each newsletter, they wrote something down along the lines of “Don’t agree with something? Then send us your opinion at Marvel Headquarters!”

Meaning if I decided to write a letter at the time arguing the contrary, I probably could have gotten them to change their opinions. Stuff like that is hardly reliable to cite in order to prove something when the editors writing these letters can’t even decide how respective power levels work.

If you want to prove to me that Cain has unlimited strength and is completely invulnerable without his shield, then prove it already. Show him on panel actually increasing his strength under his own will. Show him perform some insane durability feat in a situation where it’s clearly shown/stated that his shield isn’t already up.

Because, otherwise, I’ve seen at least some evidence that says otherwise; which is better than nothing.

Ptr_Grifin What?
Can you prove that? It’s not like he has to say “Shield Up!” or any thing to make it come up. He could simply just put it up whenever he needs to take damage.

In fights with powerful characters, his armor has been damaged and/or his helmet was destroyed or knocked off.

Hulk’s taken Cyke’s strongest blasts with the same result on more than occasion. He must be indestructible too.

No he hasn't. The time he might have taken the same blast was in WWH tie-in. Even then he took alot of damage and he wasn't laughing it off.

Difference is that Hulk actually has loads upon loads of durability feats that contradict those. What concrete showings does Juggernaut have to contradict that his invulnerability is linked to his shield? None.

No, Juggs has taken plenty of hits stronger than what Thor can do and without his shield.

It was supposed to happen because Cyttorak clearly powered him up, as was evidently stated by Cain himself. Any thing happening after that is pretty moot since it clearly wasn't under Cain's normal power any more than insane crap Spider-Man did when he had the Captain Universe powers.

Cy was never stated to have powered him up.

I mentioned DeFalco who wrote both of those first two fights between Juggernaut and Thor. If his idea of Juggernaut’s durability is suspect based on one little mistake of referring to Cain as a mutant, then the feat where Juggernaut performs his greatest durability feat of withstanding the Godblast loses all credibility as well, sicne apparently, the guy could just as easily overestimated his durability there

See now you're pulling crap out of your ass. The feat of him taking the Godblast doesn't lose any credibility because it is within his character to take such hits. The writer knew enough to have Cain compete with Thor.

[QUOTE=] Uncannyxmen.net
Powers and Abilities: unlimited strength, endurance and invulnerability to physical harm...[/QUOTE]

Meaning if I decided to write a letter at the time arguing the contrary, I probably could have gotten them to change their opinions.

No that does not mean you can change their opinions.

I have noticed that in every topic with Juggernaut you do your best to point out this same argument. What is your problem with Juggernaut's character.

nvrbeenwthagirl Restricted

If this is a slugfest, Then Juggs wont' have use of his shield. that is one. And two, Thanos and DS would likely over power his enchantment of durablity. He's NEVER fought anyone of that magnitude of might combined. Hulk is knocked out in the first few pico seconds by a speed blitz from DS.

Soljer Beware my Power
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Hulk is knocked out in the first few pico seconds by a speed blitz from DS.

Nope.

nvrbeenwthagirl Restricted
Originally posted by Soljer
Nope.

Um Yeah. DS is as fast or faster than Superman in some cases of speed blitzes. What in the Hell is hulk going to do? He'd get knocked out before his rage could amp him up enough to get resistance and strength to actually help jugs.

Soljer Beware my Power
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Um Yeah. DS is as fast or faster than Superman in some cases of speed blitzes. What in the Hell is hulk going to do? He'd get knocked out before his rage could amp him up enough to get resistance and strength to actually help jugs.

One pico second is one one millionth of a one millionth of second.

Throw down some speed feats that support Darkseid being able to take someone with high level durability, and an insane healing factor in under one one millionth of a one millionth of a second.

🙂.

nvrbeenwthagirl Restricted

Originally posted by Soljer
One pico second is one one millionth of a one millionth of second.

Throw down some speed feats that support Darkseid being able to take someone with high level durability, and an insane healing factor in under one one millionth of a one millionth of a second.

🙂.

DS has blitzed Superman many times. Superman's regular Durabily>>>>>>>>>>>>Hulk at calm lvl's durability. DS has also ***** smacked mantis, Desaad ( Who is powerful enough to take superman on in battle in disguise).

Soljer Beware my Power

Blitzed? Lets see it.

I've seen him punch superman a few times - there was no evidence that he was doing it in pico seconds. 🙂.

nvrbeenwthagirl Restricted

Originally posted by Soljer
Blitzed? Lets see it.

I've seen him punch superman a few times - there was no evidence that he was doing it in pico seconds. 🙂.

In my argument, I showd DS blitzing Superman so fast, superman couldn't react. He was so strong that he was choking Superman. Superman comments on both his strength and his speed. SM>>>>HULk in terms of reaction speed, durability(at base lvls) and strength.

Soljer Beware my Power
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
In my argument, I showd DS blitzing Superman so fast, superman couldn't react. He was so strong that he was choking Superman. Superman comments on both his strength and his speed. SM>>>>HULk in terms of reaction speed, durability(at base lvls) and strength.

If you're so confident that it supports Darkseid being able to blitz someone as powerful, and durable as the hulk in less than one millionth of a millionth of a second, post the scan. You know you have tons of them for your Thanos battle(s).

You're just well aware that none of them portray Darkseid anywhere near as fast as you're trying to portray. Thanks. 🙂.