Street Fighter IV

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Again, what "vast knowledge of the game"? Street Fighter isn't intricate enough for anyone to have "vast" knowledge of it. This is the point you're missing.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Now you're talking about devouring souls. Stop kissing the asses of these people and answer my question:

How do you define natural ability in Street Fighter? You obviously believe that you can be SO good that it's impossible to learn or train to be that good, that's the implication you're giving.

Now, considering this is STREET FIGHTER we're talking about, a very simplistic fighting game (Whether YOU like it or not), how does that work?

I'm saying that to be the top of the top, simply 'being fast' only takes care of a small part of the battle.. because others will be just as fast.. this is either where natural talent, or being a damn near prodigy comes in.. and lol at kissing ass.. its giving props.. and its the kind of respect that you very sorely lack.. so dont pretend you ever had it for anyone in this thread..

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Are you running out of things to say? I'm not trolling at all, you are.

It only makes you look like you're desperate for reply material.

"you are~" oh noes.. I'd better get my tissues.. you totally served me with the whole "i'm rubber you're glue" garbage.. :eyeroll:.. I cant really give you any feedback when all you're doing is making something out of nothing.. I'm trying to actually read what you have to say, but its really not making any sense to me at all.. because it sounds like the same thing, reworded, over and over again, which I keep refuting.. and how is it making me look petty?.. I didnt bust up in somewhere tellin people what they like is button mashing and involves no kind of talent..

also, having written barely one sentence on the issue is SOOO me "looking for reply material".. because the entire rest of my post had nothing to say.. /sigh

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's not a demonstration of great ability at all. You just sat there and literally told me, down to the word, what he was doing. He's not making shit up, is he? He's not doing anything you are incapable of doing. This is what you don't understand.

thats the entire point.. you can know what he's doing.. but that doesnt mean you have the knowledge or fundamentals to counter / topple them.. I know I can sit there and pretend to play like daigo.. but I'm not daigo.. this would be very evident to you if I actually had a chance to play daigo and record it or something

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Daigo has been playing Street Fighter since he was 11
...
...
It's really not that hard to understand. It's absolutely about speed.
...
...

Daigo isn't unbeatable, he loses rounds, he gets K.O.ed. This proves my theory.

also.. everything in gaming is going to be less complicated than real life.. so again theres no point discussing this aspect

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Ok, now you're resorting to: "We all see why you're wrong and you don't because you don't want to. This is the moment when all of us S.F. fans band together and agree, despite your posts.".

I expected better. If I'd known you were gonna waste my time with such a cheap tactic I wouldn't have bothered trying to talk to you reasonably, which I have.

Also, prodding at me with remarks about my intelligence is SOO reasonable.. and so is over-simplifying everything with total disregard to these very talented players.. but I suppose thats standard "arguing" here at KMC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If you don't understand why it's relevant then clearly I gave you more intelligence points than you actually have.

It's about your adaptation argument and why it doesn't work.

I'm sure your intelligence is soo mind numbing that you had to come talk about street fighter.. lol.. gimme a goddamn break dude

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's what's sad. Of course I have an argument, dude. These are not poorly constructed posts filled with flaming, spam and abuse, are they? I'm respectfully addressing you with points and arguments.

Been there, seen it a million times. My fault, I should have expected better.

Look, I'm Alpha Centauri : there is no god.. you are all stupid.. and if you think otherwise, you're wrong.. if not prove it.. oh WAIT.. you already lost.. -A.C.

this is what you look like to me right now, and everytime I've seen you post.. I dont know if you do it intentionally or what.. but I think its really rude how you can sit there and demean someones intelligence here and there.. noones out to get you.. I'm not joining any band wagon with pom poms.. I respect these gamers entirely, and its sad to see someone like you, who has absolutely no grip on even the basics of this game, try to knock them down

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I never took a dump on the game AT ALL. I LIKE the game, I am not obsessive about it but I like it. I have liked it for years, I liked it before a lot of people in this thread, most likely.

My remark was aimed at the people, and it wasn't a "dump". Stop being so over-dramatic. I have nothing personal against you, but you're being foolish now.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
People stand up and cheer at a Britney Spears concert, at American Idol. Talent? Yeah, take that argument to the garbage can and don't ever let it see the light of day again.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I find his matches entertaining as I'm sure all of you do, but I've been just as entertained watching two decent players play in an arcade.

I dont know what to say for you then.. because I on the other hand.. find it irritating to watch two retards play.. its like nails on a chalkboard..

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As for JustFrame: If all he can do is repeat what you've said, I'm not going to sit here and waste my time. You will undoubtedly, factually start waving cheerleading pom poms for him, so will No End etc. It's what happens.
Been there, done that. It's a common tactic on this forum. I've been here long enough to see it happen. I'm just interested in discussing this subject, now the S.F. thread circle-jerk.

-AC

Nice.. I'm so glad you're "Daigo'ing" me up..

I lost nothing.. and I gained nothing.. you're just the kind of person that doesnt want to gain anything for whatever reason

anywho.. others are getting annoyed with our post sizes.. so if we're going to continue we should probably cut most of the stuff out that isnt directly on point

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
how isnt it? because you say so?.. get real.. I've just spoke about small portions of what you have to know in order to just be competent at the damn game.. (frame data, zoning, footsies, trapping, tic throws, etc) just because you dont know this doesnt mean I'm about to sit here for 30 minutes teaching you how to play street fighter..

You do NOT need to know ANY of that to be "competent" at all. That's a massively flawed and wrong point, and you know it.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
I'm saying that to be the top of the top, simply 'being fast' only takes care of a small part of the battle.. because others will be just as fast.. this is either where natural talent, or being a damn near prodigy comes in.. and lol at kissing ass.. its giving props.. and its the kind of respect that you very sorely lack.. so dont pretend you ever had it for anyone in this thread..

Respect is earned, and on this site, it's not terribly important to me. You're all screennames, but at the very least you can stop being painfully ignorant.

I know what you're "saying", but you have no proof. You have no counter to my arguments that show "natural talent" does not exist in Street Fighter. Natural ability is what Jimi Hendrix had. An unspoken understanding of an intricate item. Being able to play Street Fighter at a top level is not natural talent.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
"you are~" oh noes.. I'd better get my tissues.. you totally served me with the whole "i'm rubber you're glue" garbage.. :eyeroll:.. I cant really give you any feedback when all you're doing is making something out of nothing.. I'm trying to actually read what you have to say, but its really not making any sense to me at all.. because it sounds like the same thing, reworded, over and over again, which I keep refuting.. and how is it making me look petty?.. I didnt bust up in somewhere tellin people what they like is button mashing and involves no kind of talent..

Because you continually insist it despite it being factually untrue. You've not refuted anything I've said, YOU just keep replying and repeating it.

"It takes natural talent.". How? Why? I've proven why it can't be considered so, you haven't countered this.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
also, having written barely one sentence on the issue is SOOO me "looking for reply material".. because the entire rest of my post had nothing to say.. /sigh

thats the entire point.. you can know what he's doing.. but that doesnt mean you have the knowledge or fundamentals to counter / topple them.. I know I can sit there and pretend to play like daigo.. but I'm not daigo.. this would be very evident to you if I actually had a chance to play daigo and record it or something

It does. Lots of people know how to beat him, he's been beaten many times.

People who CAN'T beat him, know how. You can know how without being able to apply it. I know how to beat Randy Couture in a fight; out fight him in the manner that others have beaten him. I can't, because I'm not actually that good.

Not being able to beat Daigo doesn't mean you lack the know how.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
of course he loses.. he's still a human being.. but how much more does he win than lose?.. mhmm... Also.. I dont recall ever mentioning that he's undefeated?.. so I dont get why I'm supposed to care

Because you're head and shoulders deep in the guy. This all proves my point and you don't see why.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
also.. everything in gaming is going to be less complicated than real life.. so again theres no point discussing this aspect

It was a point about strategy and prep. Daigo doesn't have to prepare for different opponents because ultimately he has enough experience. Why? Because Street Fighter is ultimately limited. Add to the fact that he's a 17 or more years player, and you have the facts.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
I dont care if anyone but you talks to me or has anything to say. I'm sticking up for the game, and the game is clearly way more complex than you're giving it credit for.. its not a reinvention of the wheel.. but noone has been able to reinvent fighting games from then to now.. and I dont see it happening still for some time.. I think that much speaks for itself..

The game doesn't need "sticking up" for, because I'm not attacking it. It's not your mother, it's a round disc.

It's not as complex as YOU give it credit for.

As for reinventing fighting games, I'm not talking about reinventing the wheel, I'm talking about pushing things forward so that fights are more dynamic. Other games have greater, more extensive moves sets, arenas etc. Things that have impact on the fight itself.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
Also, prodding at me with remarks about my intelligence is SOO reasonable.. and so is over-simplifying everything with total disregard to these very talented players.. but I suppose thats standard "arguing" here at KMC

You used a cheap tactic and I'm not over-simplifying. You're over-complicating because you have a profound and personal bond to the game.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
Then you havent watched any of his matches.. in almost all cases.. as soon as his opponent changes it up.. so does he

I have watched his matches. That's my point, it's not adapting on the fly is it? It's adapting to something you KNOW from experience. The opponent isn't "changing it up" in any way he is unfamiliar with in his 17 years.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
.. no you dont.. of course your posts are not poorly constructed.. and not 'entirely' filled with flaming.. just some sparks here and there that you sweep under the rug.. you are actually replying to what I say and I appreciate that.. but do you know why you've seen it a million times?.. because you're the only one that you say wins.. ever..

Look, I'm Alpha Centauri : there is no god.. you are all stupid.. and if you think otherwise, you're wrong.. if not prove it.. oh WAIT.. you already lost.. -A.C.

this is what you look like to me right now, and everytime I've seen you post.. I dont know if you do it intentionally or what.. but I think its really rude how you can sit there and demean someones intelligence here and there.. noones out to get you.. I'm not joining any band wagon with pom poms.. I respect these gamers entirely, and its sad to see someone like you, who has absolutely no grip on even the basics of this game, try to knock them down

The thing I hate most is that I've met maybe four people in my entire time on this forum who can actually debate me without getting into me. As in, without making remarks or commentating on me as a person (As if they even know). It's a weak tactic. Drop it.

Regardless, everyone does that thing where they do an impression of me, and it's always the furthest from my kind of post that could possibly exist.

Because you dislike how I post, you decide to regress into unsupportable claims that I am not even familiar with the basics, just because you're bothered. It's impossible not to be familiar with the basics of S.F. dude.

I'm not knocking them down, I'm calling them the best at what they do. I'm just not blind as to why they're the best. You are.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
.. how did you not?.. you blatantly called this game "button mashing".. you certainly werent giving props whatsoever, and you directed this at the fans, who made the game so popular in the first place

Ages ago, I said that the earlier games were games famous for button bashing players. I never said it in the current debate. Not once.

In THIS debate I was talking about the fans' perception of Street Fighter, not Street Fighter itself in any negative way. YOU take it as negative because my opinion of the franchise isn't glowing with residue.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
[B]you damn well know what I mean.. people who go to evo dont suck.. when they cheer its for good reason..so dont liken it to some kind of commercial "starlet" brainwashing

Say what you mean, then.

They cheer because they're entertained. It means nothing.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
I dont know what to say for you then.. because I on the other hand.. find it irritating to watch two retards play.. its like nails on a chalkboard...

This is what I mean. You're gonna sit there and defend the fanbase when you carry such attitudes as that?

"They're not as good as us, thus they're retards."? Never actually call me out on having a condescending attitude ever again.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
Nono.. I've essentially repeated what he said.. lets not get it twisted, as they say

Nice.. I'm so glad you're "Daigo'ing" me up..

I lost nothing.. and I gained nothing.. you're just the kind of person that doesnt want to gain anything for whatever reason

anywho.. others are getting annoyed with our post sizes.. so if we're going to continue we should probably cut most of the stuff out that isnt directly on point

Nothing I've said is off point.

-AC

90% of that post is off point because its not discussing your non existent argument.. the game itself has strategy with or without human intervention

you cannot take a piece of software, and pretend shit exists when it doesnt.. the options and data are all there for you to use..you dont make up 2 in 1's.. and crossovers if they arent there.. if you're going to say ridiculous things.. at least know the game

and yes you do have to have those fundamentals to be competent at the game.. spamming fireballs and pretending you know shit wont get you anywhere

people posting matches, should only be people who are demonstrating the best possible play.. I dont want to watch you and your little sister have at it over a bag of doritos.. that is absolutely terrible.. and not entertaining in the least.. its hardly condescending.. I'm absolutely a different fighting gamer than you are, and do not appreciate having my time wasted watching people press buttons instead of actually thinking about what they're doing.. I can say the exact same thing for idiots who post matches of them vs the CPU.. NOT entertaining.. you on the other hand blatantly condescend people about their ability to comprehend your wish-wash posts that have no expertise on the subject of street fighter..

AC :.. van gogh just.. mashed the paint brush.. it took no kind of talent and that anyone can do it.. -AC

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
90% of that post is off point because its not discussing your non existent argument.. the game itself has strategy with or without human intervention

you cannot take a piece of software, and pretend shit exists when it doesnt.. the options and data are all there for you to use..you dont make up 2 in 1's.. and crossovers if they arent there.. if you're going to say ridiculous things.. at least know the game

and yes you do have to have those fundamentals to be competent at the game.. spamming fireballs and pretending you know shit wont get you anywhere

Skipping things you can't reply to, I expected this.

That's to do with being cheap. Not knowing the moves. All you need to know is the basic moves list of your chosen player to be competent. Not everyone buys S.F. 4 to play competitively.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
people posting matches, should only be people who are demonstrating the best possible play.. I dont want to watch you and your little sister have at it over a bag of doritos.. that is absolutely terrible.. and not entertaining in the least.. its hardly condescending.. I'm absolutely a different fighting gamer than you are, and do not appreciate having my time wasted watching people press buttons instead of actually thinking about what they're doing.. I can say the exact same thing for idiots who post matches of them vs the CPU.. NOT entertaining.. you on the other hand blatantly condescend people about their ability to comprehend your wish-wash posts that have no expertise on the subject of street fighter..

No, see, you just posted in a far worse manner. You and your kind are SO pretentious that you forget why this game even exists; for fun. It wasn't made to be held aloft as some kind of scummy elitist wank balloon.

It was made simple to be accessible for everyone, and it is, it always has been. Competitive players are the minority, believe it or not.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
AC :.. van gogh just.. mashed the paint brush.. it took no kind of talent and that anyone can do it.. -AC

Where did I say that? Somewhere or nowhere? Don't ever misquote me. It makes you look like a tool.

Also did you just compare Daigo to Van Gogh?

Painting has a billion and one different variations. There are infinite amounts of paintings that could be created by anyone, good or bad. Anyone can paint a picture, not everyone can paint a picture well. It's precisely because of the infinite nature of visual art and music that when someone DOES create something out of the ordinary, it's special.

Don't compare that to learning the moves list of Ryu. You just come across as severely and ghastily uncultured.

Painting is only limited by your ability to come up with whatever you want to paint, and then paint it. Daigo can't make shit up that isn't on the moves list.

...and you wonder why I'm condescending.

-AC

its funny watching a bunch of "competitive gamers" act like they're the elites who have the right and means to justify a game...even though they make less than 5% of the gaming population and the only reason they're competitive gamers is because the other 95% actually have a life 😆

I agree about their attitude, but competitive gaming doesn't mean you have no life anymore than having another passionate interest.

There's no need to be that abrasive.

I support embracing whatever makes you happy.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Anyone can paint a picture, not everyone can paint a picture well.
-AC [/B]

Insert paint a picture with play street fighter.. blah blah..

the rest of your post was nonsensical filler..and infinite redundant loops.. and I'll "misquote you" (ie, show you exactly the kind of person you are) whenever I feel like it..especially since I dont even use script to give people any sense of false officialism

"being cheap" is some bullshit that noobs made up to make themselves feel better for losing to the same moves over and over again...

and lol at being pretentious.. "me and my kind" (I dont even know how I got on this species list, cuz I'm not even good at the game.. I'm competent at best) just dont feel like having to sift through trash to find a good match is all..

competition is why fighting games exist.. as they stemmed in the arcades..were you somehow unaware of this, with all of your predating?

and no.. I compared having a talent.. to having a talent.. misunderstanding me on purpose, now? eh.. you're AC.. course you are

As for your condescension.. you have just about as much authority on the subject, as I have about War3.. (i.e. none), so I'm hardly concerned with what makes you so jaded

Originally posted by Hell Lancer
its funny watching a bunch of "competitive gamers" act like they're the elites who have the right and means to justify a game...even though they make less than 5% of the gaming population and the only reason they're competitive gamers is because the other 95% actually have a life 😆

oh nice.. and I guess you fall into the 95%?.. I mean.. having come in here and wasted your valuable time typing all of this? with your entire -barely over 100- posts to boot :3

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
Insert paint a picture with play street fighter.. blah blah..

You're legitimately going to say that Street Fighter players are on par with actual artists now?

I've explained to you why your argument doesn't work.

There's a limit to what you can learn in Street Fighter, a limit to what you can do. There's no limit in painting. In painting, your ability to paint whatever you desire or imagine (Infinite possibilites) is only limited by your ability to create it well. Even then, you can do it. You can literally paint, or try to paint, anything you desire.

You cannot create anything by playing Street Fighter. Daigo can't make Ryu do anything he wasn't programmed to do. He's just a dude who's very good at Street Fighter, he's no artist.

Being able to win S.F. tournaments is absolutely, unequivocally nowhere near being able to write a symphony or paint a great work of art. Funny you say that in the same thread that you're telling me I don't know what I'm on about.

Seriously, say that in an art gallery. So uncultured. I at least know enough of the game to handle this debate. You have such a low-class imagining of artistry that I feel bad for you.

I actually can't believe you just compared the best Street Fighter players to post-impressionist artists.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
the rest of your post was nonsensical filler..and infinite redundant loops.. and I'll "misquote you" (ie, show you exactly the kind of person you are) whenever I feel like it..especially since I dont even use script to give people any sense of false officialism

Then you're rendering anything you say redundant. Misquoting is a disgrace.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
"being cheap" is some bullshit that noobs made up to make themselves feel better for losing to the same moves over and over again...

So...you can't "be cheap", as it's something noobs made up. Yet spamming fireballs and such isn't cheap?

If you call yourself a "good" or "competent" player and all you do is spam the same move, then you don't have the right to elevate yourself above the retards you diss.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
and lol at being pretentious.. "me and my kind" (I dont even know how I got on this species list, cuz I'm not even good at the game.. I'm competent at best) just dont feel like having to sift through trash to find a good match is all..

You're trash, to someone, you do realise that, right?

The fact is, you don't need to go around calling someone a retard for playing the game the way they enjoy playing it. If they go up against someone who can rise above it, they'll get creamed. If not, then so what? You weren't good enough anyway.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
competition is why fighting games exist.. as they stemmed in the arcades..were you somehow unaware of this, with all of your predating?

Competition as in to compete against an opponent. It doesn't all have to be life or death, "You're a retard" stuff.

It can be played for fun, that's why it exists. It didn't exist so that one day Evolution could be held every year. That happened BECAUSE people loved it enough to START competing on that level. Don't put the cart before the horse, you won't get far down the road.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
and no.. I compared having a talent.. to having a talent.. misunderstanding me on purpose, now? eh.. you're AC.. course you are

No, you compared possessing the ability to play Street Fighter at a high level with the works of one of the most important post-impressionist painters of all time.

Just realise how dumb that is.

What's next? Daigo is on par with Hendrix?

-AC

I know.. I totally cant talk about art.. especially when I can only DRAW.. srsly dude.. you gotta have at least 'some' ground when you nitpick an issue..

what art is , is a subjective term anyways.. oh but you already knew that :3

thats the thing.. I didnt misquote you.. I turned you into "look I'm AC the disgruntled babbler" puppet, spouting your usual biggotry and condescendance

if you cant overcome the spammed move.. then you're hopeless.. if you can make me stop spamming and start thinking.. then you have promise

and obviously I'm trash to someone.. you DID read when I wrote several times now that I'm in no way good, and competent at best, right?... maybe we oughta start a paypal fund to get ya some glasses mang

oh nice.. and I guess you fall into the 95%?.. I mean.. having come in here and wasted your valuable time typing all of this? with your entire -barely over 100- posts to boot :3

also i think he's right: SF4 is barely anything new and has the complexity and depth of rotten grape. don't hate the game but excuse me if i don't have multiple orgasms over it. i've played all SF's that've come out and i've played SF4 and to me SF is like watching Hulk Hogan wrestle: its runs on nostalgia. as far as SF goes, yes, i actually think its pretty stale and its run its course for me. the game has like 3 moves per character. how much can you possibly mix it up....given especially that half the cast has identical moves.

and while we're on the subject, the only question worth asking is why you feel that i was talking to you in the first place? any guilty conscious on your part? 😄

P.S. yes, actually I do make 95% of the people who don't give a f-ck

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
I know.. I totally cant talk about art.. especially when I can only DRAW.. srsly dude.. you gotta have at least 'some' ground when you nitpick an issue..

what art is , is a subjective term anyways.. oh but you already knew that :3

thats the thing.. I didnt misquote you.. I turned you into "look I'm AC the disgruntled babbler" puppet, spouting your usual biggotry and condescendance

if you cant overcome the spammed move.. then you're hopeless.. if you can make me stop spamming and start thinking.. then you have promise

and obviously I'm trash to someone.. you DID read when I wrote several times now that I'm in no way good, and competent at best, right?... maybe we oughta start a paypal fund to get ya some glasses mang

I'm a bigot now? Because I'm proving you wrong at every step? You are taking this stuff way, way too seriously.

You obviously can't talk about art if you're suggesting or implying that playing Street Fighter is on par with painting.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Almost all aspects?

Which has the greater, more varied moves set? Seeing as you're King Expert, educate me.[/B]

How much of that do you use? Jin's got over 1 page and a half, and even a Top Lvl Jin player will tell you they won't even use 60% of those moves through out most of a match up. Your equating more moves to a list as being "strategical"? Please man, have you seen the list on Lei or Eddy? Astranomical, have you talked to Slips who MAINS EDDY? Probably not, since you've most likely never played at the highest lvls, the guy doesn't even use 60% of that list because many of them are so situational that they never get used, not to mention some of the moves on the list are not even worth noting for.

Right, more strategy? How so, high/low, close range poking and SSing is the norm on Tekken, because in that game, you have be that close, in SF case, the fact that you have long, mid, and close range, already within that perspective SF is making you play more.

Please don't spew "move list" as a indication for depth, that's just terrible.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm 24.

Secondly, why does it matter when you get into a game? A game's a game. It doesn't change over time. Tekken Tag now is the same as Tekken Tag when it came out.[/B]

Except the fact that nobody is playing Tekken Tag anymore? You were still too young, but back then, I used to play during those Extravanganza Tournaments with the BEST in the US, meaning JOP, Slips, Ogre and even played T3 in a tournament with Alex Valle back in the OG 97 Era to name a few, this was during the Height of Tekken. So in contrast, when T3, Tag and T4 were in their prime, I was playing competitively.

So if your just playing those stated Tekken games above now, when nobody is else who's Top lvl is no longer playing it seriously all the time anymore, how much credibility do you hold?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What kept the game going is what makes it so successful and so loved; accessibility. Not changes, not evolution. The very fact is that someone who played Street Fighter 2 and no other S.F. since could pick up 4 and, with relative ease, get to grips with it.[/B]

Umm, the fact of the matter is that you can make this claim about ANY FIGHTING GAME, which is the problem with your flawed statement above. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing here, firstly, the basic concept of SF most players can be equipped to play it, if they've had first hand knowledge, however that's it. SF:IV in itself does not play completely like SFII, so a SFII player can pick up the common basics, however other new concepts in it make it a different game. Some strategies in SFII don't work to the same degree nor in some cases not the same at all in SF:IV.

A person who has only played Tekken Tag can jump into Tekken 6 and learn from the basics and move in quickly, a person playing VF:4 jumping into VF:5 can learn it from basics? So really, what are you trying to get at here?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well, you're clearly the expert, so maybe I'm missing something. You tell me what makes them all so different. I want to see what your reasoning is and then I'll tell you why I find them repetitive (Which they are, almost inarguably).[/B]

Your the one who comes into this thread and claims they are repetitive, and we are asking you why you think so? You brought this notion to us, you claim we don't know what we are talking about, you claim "insert game" is deeper then SF, yet you have not proven or shown nothing to the helm.

Again, I'm waiting, and the only notion that I can realize why you find it "repetitive" is mainly because you don't really know how the game truly plays like at the deep end.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're misunderstanding me.

The only strategy in S.F. is player strategy. The moves sets and characters have always been relatively limited. People in the game as long as Daigo probably know everyone's favourite character as well as they do because of this.

A PERSON might strategise by saying "Ok, gonna use this guy against this guy. He favours this style of attacking so I'm gonna do this.". That isn't the GAME ITSELF being massively varied and open to many amounts of varied technique. It's the person, not the game. The game has never been very strategic if at all.[/B]

What in the world are you trying to say right here...??? Seriously, re-word this so that it's in proper english, your not making any sense here at all.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's been kept alive because it's so simple and anyone can play it. Anyone can pull off moves. That's why it's so successful. If it was so successful because a niche group of tournament players loved it, it wouldn't even be successful.[/B]

I'll give you a hunch here, SF when they stopped making new SF games for the legit series, it was being played more then any other FG world wide besides for KoF's. If the game was that "easy" no way it would garner that much gameplay. Even during Tekken's height, Street Fighter still drew more competition, the only country in which Tekken drew the most competition was S. Korea, that's because Tekken is a religion over there.

Street Fighter has a solid form of basics to pick up, and a general player can pick it up to try and cover some of the basics, however the deep end is far deeper then you give credit for. Players like Daigo have even yet to truly master the "footsie game" something that hasn't been truly mastered since the OG SFII players of old. Heck, I would love to see what your interpretation of a footsie game is in SF, I'm pretty sure that's a "simple" aspect that can be learned by anybody in no time, however.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri Street Fighter is very simple and very accessible. That's why it's loved.[/B]

After 5+ post you still haven't explained from a strategy point as to how yet...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't play Virtua Fighter so I'm in no position to comment.

To that end, though, what game has a larger and more varied moves set? V.F. or S.F.? Which games moves set would take longest to learn for the average player?[/B]

VF may have a larger move list however most of those moves don't involve motions, you don't see a 360, or a 720, or double QC's do you? Also, yes, it may take a "bit" more "remember" all of the moves, however what it boils down too is what you will be applying into the game which is the strategical part. However that doesn't even make VF more strategical at all.

Considering this, there is more movelist in SC, or Tekken, however in actuality, a new player is more "keen" to picking up fighting games such as SC, or Tekken, because the execution in those games are not as up to par in SF. Your logic into believing that having a smaller move list makes it easier however ask a new player to consistently throw out Hadouken's consistently, or do a Shoryuken 100% when an opponent jumps in. I guarantee 100%, they won't be able to do so, because even though the move list is "smaller" the execution their is still needed, and the strategy to utilize effectively is even greater.

So your noted statement of a larger move list is flawed, because at the deep end of the game, most of those moves on the list won't be used for most of the match anyhow, not to mention it's what you are capable of doing with them, which in case, in SF, that supposedly "small and easy to pick up movelist" has a huge learning curve to go along with it.

Go and watch a Tekken match up of top-players and see just how many "moves" are used from a character within their entire move roster, and you'll see how illogical your statement above sounds.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not ASKING for evolution, I'm simply saying S.F. hasn't evolved anywhere near as much as fanboys would have everyone believe. The reason it IS so loved is because it HASN'T changed enough to alienate the casual gamer. It's still essentially 2D in principle and it still has moves sets that are easy to learn.[/B]

Since when has anyone stated that Street Fighter evolved so heavily? Your just spewing this out, when I have ever commented that Street Fighter is now revolutionary? Please, go back and re-quote me on this. In fact how has Tekken "improved" over Street Fighter?

If we compare the latest Street Fighter game, to the latest Tekken game, Street Fighter IV is a much, much, much better game strategy wise then Tekken 6 is. So even without a "huge" level of differential, Street Fighter is still more strategical, and deeper as a whole, while Tekken 6 has failed on this notion.

Being "similar" in fashion doesn't make any difference whatsoever, and Tekken is such an old game that even players who haven't played in years can jump right back into it, so your statements are flawed. Gosh, I'm repeating this over and over, but it seems you keep saying the same thing over and over.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What's a better game to crack out at a party or gathering, to give everyone a fair chance; S.F. or V.F. or Tekken?

Depends on whom I have over at my party or gathering. I have OG players who can play both effectively so we can do either, I have some who are SF purist, others Tekken Purist...umm, what does this have to do with what your trying to say?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've proven many times why Street Fighter isn't a massively strategic game. Players going into matches with a gameplan doesn't change that.

Still waiting on this, because I want to READ why you think this.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The funny thing is, you're whining about "debaters", but I never once said S.F. was not good. I stated I preferred Tekken, I never said I didn't like S.F., did I? At the end of the day, preference is all we have in terms of what is "better" on a subjective level.

-AC

Your exact Quotes from your first post to start this notion....

[i]Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's amazing to see someone make Street Fighter out to be this intricately unique fighting game.

[i]Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's about whoever's the fastest, that's it.

[i]Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact is, there's only so much you can do. Street Fighter will never be as varied as Tekken, it'll never have the learning curve of Tekken.

You say these things, and then give no credible statements involving the plays of Street Fighter or Tekken to prove any of what you are saying. Now you see, at least give me something revolving about the game to debate about. This whole time you've given absolutely No Strategies or comparisons to even make one, and you spew all of the above and then claim it's only "preference".

Well now, I'm saying it, tell me how in your mind why you think Street Fighter is not as strategical (from a game play stand point), and I'll be back to read up on it.

Originally posted by JustFrame
How much of that do you use? Jin's got over 1 page and a half, and even a Top Lvl Jin player will tell you they won't even use 60% of those moves through out most of a match up. Your equating more moves to a list as being "strategical"? Please man, have you seen the list on Lei or Eddy? Astranomical, have you talked to Slips who MAINS EDDY? Probably not, since you've most likely never played at the highest lvls, the guy doesn't even use 60% of that list because many of them are so situational that they never get used, not to mention some of the moves on the list are not even worth noting for.

Right, more strategy? How so, high/low, close range poking and SSing is the norm on Tekken, because in that game, you have be that close, in SF case, the fact that you have long, mid, and close range, already within that perspective SF is making you play more.

Please don't spew "move list" as a indication for depth, that's just terrible.

When did the playing preference of one become the playing preference of many?

When I played, I played as Paul and Lei. I used all of their moves, I was one of the only people I know who bothered to apply all of Lei's stances.

Just because someone didn't use all the moves doesn't mean nobody did. Take it back to the drawing board.

You answered what game has the more in-depth and varied moves sets; it's not S.F., and that doesn't change just cos people may not use them a lot.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Except the fact that nobody is playing Tekken Tag anymore? You were still too young, but back then, I used to play during those Extravanganza Tournaments with the BEST in the US, meaning JOP, Slips, Ogre and even played T3 in a tournament with Alex Valle back in the OG 97 Era to name a few, this was during the Height of Tekken. So in contrast, when T3, Tag and T4 were in their prime, I was playing competitively.

So if your just playing those stated Tekken games above now, when nobody is else who's Top lvl is no longer playing it seriously all the time anymore, how much credibility do you hold?

How was I too young? I was 14 when it came out in arcades, and used to play it in arcades in the West End. Each week they'd release some newer characters on the machine and I'd go down to play it with whoever was in there that day. Never assume, you'll look dumb.

Also, who the HELL said I was just getting into these games now? I had Tekken when it first came out.

So, why does it matter? What relevance does this have to the debate?

Originally posted by JustFrame
Umm, the fact of the matter is that you can make this claim about [B]ANY FIGHTING GAME, which is the problem with your flawed statement above. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing here, firstly, the basic concept of SF most players can be equipped to play it, if they've had first hand knowledge, however that's it. SF:IV in itself does not play completely like SFII, so a SFII player can pick up the common basics, however other new concepts in it make it a different game. Some strategies in SFII don't work to the same degree nor in some cases not the same at all in SF:IV.

All you need is the common basics, THAT is what YOU don't get.

As for the new features, they are not so mind-boggling that you can't pick them up within minutes unless you have A.D.D. or something.

Stop over-complicating the game, dude.

Originally posted by JustFrame
A person who has only played Tekken Tag can jump into Tekken 6 and learn from the basics and move in quickly, a person playing VF:4 jumping into VF:5 can learn it from basics? So really, what are you trying to get at here?

My point is that once you learn the basics, there's still a lot more to master on Tekken than there is on S.F. isn't there? Don't give me that b.s. about how certain players don't bother mastering the moves set, because that's not the argument.

The point is, Tekken has more to it than Street Fighter, it takes more getting used to. You move across the arenas faster in Street Fighter, you jump higher, you jump further. It's an entirely condensed dynamic in Tekken.

S.F.'s one works for what it is and we all like that, but it IS what it is. It's not better OR worse, because that's preference. It just...is, and what it IS, is less varied.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Your the one who comes into this thread and claims they are repetitive, and we are asking you why you think so? You brought this notion to us, you claim we don't know what we are talking about, you claim "insert game" is deeper then SF, yet you have not proven or shown nothing to the helm.

Again, I'm waiting, and the only notion that I can realize why you find it "repetitive" is mainly because you don't really know how the game truly plays like at the deep end.

Stop using that as an excuse. If the only way these games makers are hoping for their games to avoid repetition is by saying that you need to be a tournament player to get it, then they're not doing their job properly. You and I both know their intention is to get as many people playing as possible.

Street Fighter is NOT an elitist game no matter how much your kind wish to pretend it is.

"You see it as repetitive because you don't play it at as high a level.". No, I see it as repetitive because from March '91 to the Super S.F. 4, there are so few differences when you actually get down to it. THAT is what earned it praise AND derision.

Some praised it for adding TINY things (Like the graphical updates) that keep it fresh enough, while remaining essentially the same game. Others derided it for...essentially only having tweaked things. If the fact that it's such a simple, repetitive game is there so prominently that it's being used as both a negative AND a positive in swathes of media reviews, how can you deny it?

Originally posted by JustFrame
What in the world are you trying to say right here...??? Seriously, re-word this so that it's in proper english, your not making any sense here at all.

Do yourself a favour, ok? If you don't get a point, admit you don't get it and ask for it to be put in severe layman's terms. Don't make it out to be my fault when the point is clear.

Originally posted by JustFrame
I'll give you a hunch here, SF when they stopped making new SF games for the legit series, it was being played more then any other FG world wide besides for KoF's. If the game was that "easy" no way it would garner that much gameplay. Even during Tekken's height, Street Fighter still drew more competition, the only country in which Tekken drew the most competition was S. Korea, that's because Tekken is a religion over there.

Think about that claim.

"If it was easy no way would it garner that much gameplay". Please just think about how untrue that is.

Street Fighter is the most famous, easiest fighting game to play for the worldwide audience. It has two people who are pop culture figures; Ryu and Ken. Their move names are more or less known throughout generations.

People play Street Fighter for many reasons, and the main one is because it is easy to learn and accessible. It's also got the nostalgia factor in its favour. Most people who adore S.F. grew up with it, to one degree or another.

As someone said, when Hulk Hogan ever makes a return to wrestling, he gets louder cheers than anyone on the roster who might be better than him, from any generation. Not because he's the best, but because of nostalgia.

-AC

Originally posted by JustFrame
Street Fighter has a solid form of basics to pick up, and a general player can pick it up to try and cover some of the basics, however the deep end is far deeper then you give credit for. Players like Daigo have even yet to truly master the "footsie game" something that hasn't been truly mastered since the OG SFII players of old. Heck, I would love to see what your interpretation of a footsie game is in SF, I'm pretty sure that's a "simple" aspect that can be learned by anybody in no time, however.

You're talking about these guys like they're Shaolin monks. That's what I mean about the pretentiousness of the hardcore, minority fanbase.

Like I said, footsies are not something that comes with the game. They are not an official move or whatever. They're something players do to psyche each other out. It's what I said above but you were too dense to grasp; PLAYERS bring that to the table, it's not the game being versatile. It's players using existing soft hits or low hits just outside the hit area to goad or bait their opponent, right? Effectively that's what it is.

So basically, the only difference between being good at it and bad at it is your own personal...? Yes, speed and reaction time. The two things I said it comes down to in the first place.

Originally posted by JustFrame
After 5+ post you [B]still haven't explained from a strategy point as to how yet...

Stop blaming me for your inability to comprehend anything I've said. It's there for all to see.

Originally posted by JustFrame
VF may have a larger move list however most of those moves don't involve motions, you don't see a 360, or a 720, or double QC's do you? Also, yes, it may take a "bit" more "remember" all of the moves, however what it boils down too is what you will be applying into the game which is the strategical part. However that doesn't even make VF more strategical at all.

Why doesn't it?

If you're playing someone who utilises way more moves, you have to employ way more thought into how you're going to deal with them.

In Tekken you can do things (Last I played) like counter actual punches or kicks and turn them into throws. Some use that, some don't, but it's a valuable technique and that's what you'd call strategy. Is your opponent a counter-user? Are they someone who knows extensive chunks of the move list or are they not? If so, what moves do they favour and why? When will they likely use them?

There's just way more to those kind of games, going into a match, than Street Fighter. I'm sorry, but there just is.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Considering this, there is more movelist in SC, or Tekken, however in actuality, a new player is more "keen" to picking up fighting games such as SC, or Tekken, because the execution in those games are not as up to par in SF. Your logic into believing that having a smaller move list makes it easier however ask a new player to consistently throw out Hadouken's consistently, or do a Shoryuken 100% when an opponent jumps in. I guarantee 100%, they won't be able to do so, because even though the move list is "smaller" the execution their is still needed, and the strategy to utilize effectively is even greater.

You get quarter turns, pause breaks and 360s in Tekken also. The rising uppercuts, chain grabs and combos aren't easy to instantly pull off unless you actually know how to time pad inputs. That's not an S.F. OR Tekken thing, it's a fighting game thing.

Originally posted by JustFrame
So your noted statement of a larger move list is flawed, because at the deep end of the game, most of those moves on the list won't be used for most of the match anyhow, not to mention it's what you are capable of doing with them, which in case, in SF, that supposedly "small and easy to pick up movelist" has a huge learning curve to go along with it.

See, that's what I mean. You are so self-absorbed that you think the only kind of game is "deep end". You do realise you're the minority, right? People all over the world play and not all of them are high-end players who don't take time to learn and integrate a wider moves set.

I did, my friends did.

The fact that it IS there and DOES make the game and fights more varied IF you use them is what gives my argument the points, and yours none. "People don't apply them at deep end!", so? Deep end is one, hardcore, miniscule nugget of the gaming market. It's like blaming fundamentalist, creationist Christians for everything. They don't represent most of their religion, they're a tiny part. They just make the biggest stink and tend to think it's all about them.

The parallels are there.

You can't argue that Tekken having a way more varied moves set which, if implemented, makes the fights more varied, does not matter because a small nugget of users do not do so. THAT is a dumb argument.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Go and watch a Tekken match up of top-players and see just how many "moves" are used from a character within their entire move roster, and you'll see how illogical your statement above sounds.

As above.

Proof that YOU are being illogical.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Since when has anyone stated that Street Fighter evolved so heavily? Your just spewing this out, when I have ever commented that Street Fighter is now revolutionary? Please, go back and re-quote me on this. In fact how has Tekken "improved" over Street Fighter?

Where did I say you said it? Go and quote me.

Tekken "improved" for reasons I just stated over the past three or four quotes.

Originally posted by JustFrame
If we compare the latest Street Fighter game, to the latest Tekken game, Street Fighter IV is a much, much, much better game strategy wise then Tekken 6 is. So even without a "huge" level of differential, Street Fighter is still more strategical, and deeper as a whole, while Tekken 6 has failed on this notion.

If it has the wider moves set and ability to counter strikes into grapples, chain moves togethe etc and people, somewhere on this planet are willing to learn/implement them, it will never be a more strategic game.

It doesn't matter if people don't do it, because people CAN if they chose. If people wanted to do on Street Fighter what you CAN do on Tekken IF YOU CHOOSE, could they? No.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Being "similar" in fashion doesn't make any difference whatsoever, and Tekken is such an old game that even players who haven't played in years can jump right back into it, so your statements are flawed. Gosh, I'm repeating this over and over, but it seems you keep saying the same thing over and over.

Yes, you are. I'm not. I haven't even replied yet.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Depends on whom I have over at my party or gathering. I have OG players who can play both effectively so we can do either, I have some who are SF purist, others Tekken Purist...umm, what does this have to do with what your trying to say?

Stop chickening out, I wasn't asking YOU personally.

If the average person has a party and wants to bring out a fighting game, which game would be best? Street Fighter, is the clear answer.

What game is going to cause both the experienced and the uninitiated the most fun in the least amount of time? Street Fighter. What game takes the least amount of explaining? Street Fighter.

Originally posted by JustFrame
You say these things, and then give no credible statements involving the plays of Street Fighter or Tekken to prove any of what you are saying. Now you see, at least give me something revolving about the game to debate about. This whole time you've given absolutely No Strategies or comparisons to even make one, and you spew all of the above and then claim it's only "preference".

Well now, I'm saying it, tell me how in your mind why you think Street Fighter is not as strategical (from a game play stand point), and I'll be back to read up on it.

Everything you need is in this post, my posts to Satsujin etc.

I'm not going to spoon-feed you, you're not a baby. I've gone over it with you AND him. So you do all the reading and you'll see why.

-AC

By the way, I don't think AC's point was that the game doesn't require skill and only requires speed. His point was there's no natural skill, meaning everyone can build this skill up required to play SF as someone like Daigo can play it, given that they don't have physical or mental disabilities.

Originally posted by FWahMaN
By the way, I don't think AC's point was that the game doesn't require skill and only requires speed. His point was there's no natural skill, meaning everyone can build this skill up required to play SF as someone like Daigo can play it, given that they don't have physical or mental disabilities.

It's learned skill, exactly. It's not some natural gift. The "skill" being your own gained reaction time and speed.

Thank you, it's nice to know someone actually grasps the point.

It was beginning to depress me that four people continually couldn't understand it.

-AC

I have been told however, when it comes to something like art...there can be a natural talent. Could be wrong though. I have an uncle who wasn't taught special techniques to draw in 3-D, but he was doing things it takes the average person years to learn doing (knew how to draw proportions accurately, cylinders, all the effects required to create the illusion of 3D on a 2D surface). I think I'm slightly similar. Mom has a tendency to exaggerate me though...but yeah, that's moms for you. 😛

Sorry for the off-topicness 131. And I prefer SF HD more. Gives a more anime-feel and I think shows what the characters, really should look like, as opposed to SF4 (Ryu and Ken's feet 😘 but Chun-Li and Sakura's lower bodies drool)

Yeah...I should leave....

Precisely.

Mozart wrote symphonies in single digit age.

Playing Street Fighter at Daigo's level, even at single digit age, would not be as astounding of an accomplishment.

If that's what's being implied, that it IS as astounding or on the same level, then C.A.T. scans are in order.

Even on a basic level, being able to play S.F. isn't as impressive as being able to play a musical instrument. There's nothing superlative about it.

-AC

Originally posted by FWahMaN
Yeah...I should leave....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Precisely.

I know you weren't aiming at that. It just looks hilarious this way.

I think it's funny how two of the new SFers in SSS4 will have mustachios. 🙂