Street Fighter IV

Originally posted by TricksterPriest ~MANLY POST~[/B]

Co-Sign, listen to this man Trickster, he knows what he's talking about! Also Trickster, don't fall in for Sado's comments, as depressing as they sound, it's obvious he doesn't know enough about Street Fighter, or even the Tekken series that he's trying to defend or claim to be "greater" then SF.

In fact, there are very few fighting games ever to be on Street Fighter's level of strategy vs strategy.

The current Tekken 6 in comparison to Street Fighter IV is not even close, I would break the two down, but it's simply not worth it, because SF:IV is just that much better then Tekken 6.

More importantly, I want to just talk about SF:IV itself, considering I've been away from this forum for quite some time now, due to the fact that I've been traveling for months now (Was in Thailand, S. Korea and Japan), and I've only returned back to the US in early May.

Competition for this game in S. Korea is solid, and definitely very strong in Japan without a doubt. Tekken is still Koreans go to game, however SF:IV has spawned alot of new heads and competition. If anyone has been keeping up, Poongko was the S. Korean National winner there, and he was given the rights to come to the USA to compete against the Japanese and USA National's winner.

It was incredible to see Poongko, Iyo, and Wong go at it against each other, since all of them won their countries Nationals SF:IV tournament.

However, to rewind a bit, in Japan, when I was last there in mid-late 2008, there was alot of Zangief players, however now, it seemed everyone stopped grabbing into the Russian Wrestlers nuts, with only competent Gief players now. There's been a jump of Gouki players, as well as Viper (although for Vipers case it's toned down slightly as well), you'll see quite a few Sagat's, some occasional Ryu's and all the other mixes. So far, quite a bit of peeps are getting solid play, the only character I don't see used quite often is Claw.

After much play time, and after almost nearly a year of playing this game whenever I have the time it's safe to say that to me, Zangief as a character, is not as good as he is slated to be. Upon the current tier listing of SF:IV from Arcadia they have him placed in A-Tier, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Considering this, that although Zangief may fight considerably and effectively well against the mid-lower end of the tier character, the S, A, and even some character in B rank, he has a tough time against.

His worse match up is probably Sagat, Gouki and possibly even slightly against Ryu, all of these characters are within S, and A ranks. He narrowly breaks even with the likes of Dictator and Honda, and fights to a standstill with Rufus. Here is my dilemma...how can you be ranked A-Tier...if within just the S, A, and B rank tier, you either are at a disadvantage, or just break even if narrowly in some cases?

Gief is still a beast, and yes, easily can compete however you really have to know how to work his magic to make him very effective. This is why I have my issues, because against the weaker characters, he obviously does very good, but up against the heavy dogs, he's just not one of the best. In fact, Viper as a character does better against the Top-10 characters in SF:IV overall then Gief.

So yeah, that's my say on that, however Gouki has become a very powerful character indeed. I am not surprised, considering I stated here months ago that Gouki is arguably Top-4 when people start to get his potential. In some players, and yes, even top players, Gouki is ranked #3 only Sagat and Ryu being overall better.

That zoning game of his his absolutely amazing, and his BnB combos which doesn't even need to rely upon meter is deadly. Playing in Japan and going up against some solid Gouki players with my Ryu, I tell you, it's no laughing matter, you either bring your A-Game, or you downright get blown out.

Ryu's saving grace is that his zoning potential is as good as Gouki's, however Ryu has the luxury of having the overall best Ultra in the entire game with the flexibility in landing it, and not to mention, Gouki's stamina is about that of a toddler, you touch him 2-3 times and he's gone. ShoryukenxxfadcxxUltra does half or slightly over against Gouki which Ryu can cash in on.

Overall though, this game from a tier list standpoint will probably not change too much as stated before, and it's proving that case, with nearly the top who were top, staying top, and those at the bottom, staying at the bottom, with only the middle really moving around. Btw, beware of Honda players, they are pretty darn beastly, well...up against Ryu, it's not bad, but if your playing Viper or something...my goodness, is Honda a nightmare when played right.

Anyhow, I'll leave you all with the current Arcadia Tier Listing...

Overall Tier Rank
S Rank: Sagat
A Rank: Ryu, Akuma, Zangief
B Rank: M.Bison, Rufus, Balrog, C.Viper, E.Honda
C Rank: Abel, El Fuerte, Dhalsim, Chun-li, Ken, Blanka
D Rank: Guile, Vega

Weird thing is Yoru Yoru didn't really give any real explanation to his tiering, besides this posting. Also, Daigo Umehara gave out a Ryu Match up Lists...

Ryu Match-up tier
4:6 Disadvantage: Sagat
5:5 Neutral: M.Bison, Balrog, Dhalsim, El Fuerte, Blanka
6:4 Advantage: Akuma, Zangief, C.Viper, E.Honda, Abel, Chun-li, Ken, Guile, Vega, Rufus

Obviously, not everything on the tier list will be agreed upon, I even don't agree on some characters placings, however that's how every tier has been since the dawning of SFII. However, sooner or later, we'll get to a point where most can be agreed upon, that time probably just isn't now.

Anyhow, play Street Fighter IV folks, and if you've got time, try to enter in tournaments and compete! Do not be afraid to do so, because everyone starts out as a scrub (I did back in 1991!), and you'll only continue to improve if you dedicate to it. Obviously for me I've thrown out the gloves, however it's still fun to at least reasonable and not a push over for me, rofl.

Ps: Tekken 4 Jin was the most broken, retarded tournament legal Tekken character ever, period. More stupid then 5.0 Steve, more stupid then T3 Ogre, more stupid then even Tag Mishima's. I've mained Jin since Tekken 3 to the current day and even I can agree the character I played back in T4 was stupidly overpowered. Funny how my screen name is taken directly from his most Go-For-Broke Move, rofl.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Lol, you sound like you're 16 years old son.

You cannot refute a single thing I said.

Guilty Gear is simply better than SF.

Oh, and please no one try to lump me in with the "haters" of the SF series, I usually defend it. Guilty Gear is just one of the few games I would not attempt to.

Oh, and I am 17.

Been a while JustFrame.

About Zangief I must say I have learned the match. Basically zone his ass. Wary of ExGreenhands and not letting him score a knockdown or you're in a hell of a lot of trouble. He used to beat me senseless when I was a bigger newbie since when I screwed up he pretty much finished the match.

I don't know how much knowledge you have on the tier list regarding console chars(since most tier lists only use arcade chars) but I remember reading somewhere that Seth can take 8-9 from Gief since the red cyclone can't get his hands on him. To a point I believe it to be true because Seth is hard to catch even with characters that have more speed and mobility, but then again if Seth screws up he is toast.

Akuma is indeed beastly. His combos deal lots of damage and if the other person has the sadc down he can dish damage almost equal to 2 ultras (using Ryu's as an example) per round if he manages to land the combo twice.

I like this game's style. Granted it isn't as fast paced as other games but I like the "chess" style.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Y

You cannot refute a single thing I said.

everything you said was relative. 😐 😛

Originally posted by WO Polaski
everything you said was relative. 😐 😛

Why is there so much stupid garbage with Tekken is better then Street Fighter or Guilty Gear is better then Street Fighter comments?

Anyone who plays any of these games remotely consistently will understand that GG is more of a VS type game then to actually be like that of the True Street Fighter Series. It's pretty difficult to compare both when one game you can do 203948239048 hits, has air juggles, multiple air dashes and cancels, to a fighting game that is focused more on the ground, with a huge emphasis on zoning, spacing and footsies.

Your better off comparing GG to MvC2, much less Street Fighter IV, and now to remove myself from that before I become contaminated.

Zack, you are indeed correct, if you include console, Seth is one of Zangief's toughest match ups in the game of SF:IV. Again as you say, Gief has a really difficult time getting in with Green Hand or Lariat's. It's just a downright tough match up because Seth can simply out poke, out zone Gief, and you add the fact that if Seth does somehow get pinned down, he can still Teleport out of harms way when given the chance.

Doing so will basically put Zangief back at square one all over again, and wondering why all of his hard work went in for nothing. This match up in my opinion has got to be around at least 7-3, there's no way it's a 6-4, because it's not that close. Seth when played right is very strong, however he plays with a live or die mentality, because his stamina is so absolutely terrible that one connected Ultra can usually swing the match up into your favor because the stamina of Seth is just horrendous.

If you like to play characters with a super high reward, but incredibly terrible stamina to compensate for that, then Seth is the character to play. I feel that at his potential he's around Upper-Tier, and he can get spanked by Ryu quite badly, because Ryu has the best overall punisher into Ultra setup.

I will say this though, as manly as SF:IV is with the chess vs chess and strategy vs strategy, it's still not on par with the likes of OG SFII. However, I'm not complaining, this game is really solid, and I'm enjoying the footsie, zoning that can go down within this game.

Btw, you peeps should really watch videos of Poongko, that dude has some serious reaction and execution abilities.

Oh yeah I've seen plenty of poongko videos. He has some stylish combos and his overall aggressive Ryu is a nice change of pace. But I kindda knew he would be punished hardcore when the 3 national champs and Daigo met in that gamestop tourny. I hope he learned from the xp.

Besides Daigo's near godliness, lol, Iyo has got to be my fav. player. His Dhalsim is so nasty. It'd be a nightmare fighting that sim.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nothing I say is ever relative. estahuh

No it was just Bullshit. Lol @ Guilty Gear i say, LOL.

😆

You have absolutely no concept of game mechanics. Interactive stages? Unless this is smash bros, it's entirely irrelevant to whether a game is good or not.

Juggles? Really iffy, considering that it's very easy to destroy the balance with that or worse, create infinites.

Chain moves/throws? Tekken is hardly the first, nor is it the best. Street Fighter, KOF and the vs. series all have used chain moves and were much better at executing that.

Tekken does not have the depth, simply because there are limits to what you can do. With 90% of the characters, you have to get close to someone and attack.

There is no distance game.

20+ characters? Very nice. But......how many of them are really balanced? T4 Jin anyone? Tekken has a problem with making characters slightly unbalanced and creating guys like Jin or Eddie who are a bit too far above the compedition. Take Steve Fox for example. Against several people in this game, he's garbage. Balrog is how you do a boxer right.

Despite using only his fists for the most part, he is still viable at the highest levels.

4 moves? So you don't acknowledge the fact that every move has 3 variations, when half of your 60+ move list is just standard moves, like mid kick, high kick, low punch, etc. Street Fighter is far from a 4 move game. Ryu has 3 variations of each of his "4" moves, and 1 more for each with the EX versions. And I'm not even counting the unique attacks or the chain link ups for combos.

these are all not just simple punches. heck, in ryu's four moves, baring hadouken, everything else is also just regular punches and kicks if that's your idea of regular puncehs (shoryuken=jumping uppercut, joudan sakuto geri=stepping sidekick, tatsumakisenpuukyaku=a three spin jump backspin/roundhouse). fail.

and exactly what "variations" does ryu have for his 4 moves? slower and faster hadoukens?

Let's list the game mechanics that show off the compeditive balance in SF: Invincibility frames, hyper armor, focus attacks, cancels, counter attacks, kara moves, stun gauges, the whole revenge gauge system, the super gauge system, and of course, the fact that every single character is viable and nobody is broken. Not even Sagat, Ryu and 'Gief are broken or overpowered. Can Tekken claim to have a system that tight?

Highest grossing game? So ****ing what? Consumer buying power has NEVER equaled quality. And I really don't expect most gamers or even reviewers to acknowledge the high level applications and tournament viability of a game.

so you stay lost, Sado. Your kind of gamer is a disgrace to this board.

Co-Sign, listen to this man Trickster, he knows what he's talking about! Also Trickster, don't fall in for Sado's comments, as depressing as they sound, it's obvious he doesn't know enough about Street Fighter, or even the Tekken series that he's trying to defend or claim to be "greater" then SF.

~Sado
P.S. manly post? hysterical

I noticed a few people are missing from the tiers. As Zack said, the console guys are not there. I firmly believe Gouken is at least A class. I'd like your opinion on him and some of the other console guys, like Dan, Gen, Fei Long, etc.

Sado: Wait, you think Seth is broken? 😂 Now I know you're not tournament level. You'd have to be a complete idiot to think Seth was broken. His zoning game is specatular I'll grant you, but that level of teleport and zone control mastery is quite hard to play, and you can lose half your HP to a combo or two. Hell, most ultras will gravely wound or kill him if he's at 60-70%. Gief and Gouki could probably finish him at 80.

So no, he's not broken. If his HP and stun were higher, and he didn't have certain weaknesses built into his moves, then yes, he would be broken. But the programmers didn't do that. Not like Tekken, which has had 3 SNK boss syndrome bosses. Seth is a boss who's fairly well balanced while still being a strong threat.

Have'nt played SF: IV, But i like Street Fighter alot more then Tekken when it comes to the moves, Special moves. Theres just too many friggan moves to learn with Tekken.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Guilty Gear better than street fighter? GTFO.

Srsly!

Don't even grab a bagel.

My point is that one of the two games you bashed is just barely less complex than street fighter.. tekken (in all of its juggle spam glory) has a higher learning curve than sf.. and MK decided to cling to dial-a-combos.. which isn't really too far off from spamming jabs and links

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Don't get me started on broken T4 Jin, TP.

Steve was nasty in T4 too, but Jin took the cake.

Jin was only good in that game because he was the only counter to steve.... or was it vice versa 😂

I was told Steve is top in both 5 and 6

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Anyways.. I feel that HD remix is more of a contribution to street fighter than SFIV

Hey, it's JustFrame. I was just wondering when you were gonna show up again.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN

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Anyways.. I feel that HD remix is more of a contribution to street fighter than SFIV

....

David Sirlin knows his shit.. and a majority of it got ignored in SFIV.. example.. ducking cammy's hooligan.. and requiring it to be 2 buttons instead of 1?.. /shrug.. not to mention its back to the same motion of yesteryear

Long post...

I'm going to educate someone here (Sado)...it's not even about the amount of Move List that makes a game "deeper", it's the strategy vs strategy involved with them that truly makes the game better, which in fact is just one of the few pieces.

As to why Sado keeps bringing up Tekken, it makes no sense, however considering at one point within my life I used to play Tekken competitively (Tekken 3, Tag, T4, and early part of Tekken 5 to be frank), I can tell you this, that having more moves does not make Tekken in any way shape or form deeper then Street Fighter.

First off, out of all of the 209348239048 moves on that list, you won't even be using half of them, and some are barely touched.

Take Jin for example from Tekken Tag, the moves you'll see fly out nearly 80% of the time from him is his Special (E)wgf, 112, Hellsweep, ws+K, B+K, w+2. There's a few more, however this is out of how many moves he's got???? Chreddy has like nearly 3-4 pages of movelist yet even the best Chreddy players like Slips will tell you that you don't even use 75% of those moves in a real competitive game anyhow.

Tekken Tag was arguably one of the most strategical Tekken games ever, maybe #2 or #1 of the series. However, Tekken's main focus of strategy vs strategy is involved all within close up range, sure you'll get your occasional man with a Mishima who can "Dewgf" you from a slight distance away, or in Tekken 4 you'll have a runaway Hiyashida Nina, however, nearly 98% of Tekken's strategy is up close.

Contrast that to a game like Street Fighter where Long, Mid, and Close Range is a real reality, this is what seperates most 2-D fighters from pure 3-D fighters because in 2-D fighters, no matter where you are on the screen, you still will have to fight (Look at KoF, GG, MvC2, CvS2, FF, etc, etc not just SF). These are the true essential differentials in strategy vs strategy, because in one game, it's all about being "up close" while the other, no matter where you are on the screen, you are still drawn to fight.

I'm also growing tired of the Tekken spewing on the SF thread, so I'm going to say this again, Tekken 6 is a lowly garbage Tekken game in contrast to Street Fighter IV.

Being an advent and a lover of the Tekken series, it pains me greatly to say that, because Tekken 6 has evolved into a Crush/Hopkick/Launcher+Juggle+Bound+Wallbound mentality that is just downright boring. You see this being utilized by all characters, where as in previous Tekken games, there was far more creativity and character individualism.

Street Fighter IV has 50x more character diversity due to the fact that not everyone is playing on the same emphasis that we see in Tekken 6. Ryu plays with a heavy emphasis on zoning, spacing and footsies, while someone like Balrog is played with a far greater form of a rushdown.

In Tekken 6, regardless if your playing Jin, or Paul, or Ling, your always fishing for that launcher/hopkick/crush to send your opponent sky high to land a juggle.

Why is it that 98% of all video match ups portray this mentality? Heck, why even ask me, talk to any of the Top Tekken players today...Conk, Ogre, JOP from the USA. Or how about Top Korean players like MDJ....every single one of these guys and many more have voiced their opinions on how terrible Tekken 6 is, and why it's the most newbie friendly and most one dimensional Tekken ever to be conceived.

"Stage" interaction doesn't do jack to "improve" gameplays either in most cases...why is it that in Virtua Fighter 3, they had interactive stages...yet it was completely scrapped in all later versions? Only Tekken 4 had interactive stages and look where it went. Smash Bros has interactive stages...and look at how many of them are not even tournament legal. If you honestly think Tekken 6's stages are somewhat "interactive" into making it deeper, then you really do not know what you are talking about.

Considering that getting hit to the wall in Tekken 6 is like being cornered in a game of Street Fighter IV, however being in the corner for SF:IV is worse because there is alot more options for the opponent to leave you there, as in contrast to Tekken 6.

Also, no, it's not a crime to like another game more, however it's moronic to be trying to shaft Tekken in a Street Fighter Thread and try to prove to everyone why Tekken is better (Considering you can't prove anything because you don't even truly know how it plays like beyond the newbie level). Seriously, you don't know what your talking about period. It's blatantly obvious I know more about the game your defending then you do (mechanics+competitive knowledge of the advances in the game), so sit down and knock off the talk, like your opinion even has any reasonable weight.

It would make much more sense if you could break down both games from a Real strategy vs strategy point between both SF and Tekken and try to compare on why you like one better then the other. However, when all you post is general garbage that doesn't even go beyond the basics, how does anyone take you serious? Honestly man, you don't even know enough about Street Fighter, a game you somehow criticize, nor Tekken to even try to make a reasonable opinion.

So who's the real phony talking here?

However, I'm done with this anyhow, and reasons why is that Trickster pointed it out already...Sado thinks Seth is Broken, which is full of lol, because if Seth is broken...then Sagat and Ryu must be God-Mode Broken, considering everyone knows that in SF:IV, Sagat and Ryu are the two best characters in this game.

Don't listen to that man, there is nobody in SF:IV that is even remotely broken period. Sagat even at #1 is one of the most balanced #1 characters in comparison to most current fighting games today. This game is very solid in balance, and the mentioning that Seth is broken is not true on any given level.

As noted, by Trickster and me earlier, Seth has good zoning and potential damage capabilities, however his stun and stamina are so pathetic, that he can lose a large portion of his life on a well placed Ultra or combo set. Watch Ryu players fish for punishing Seth, and see his life vanish into nothingness when you see a ShoryukenxxFadcxxUltra land. Heck, just watch when Ryu can land a regular string combo without any Ultra and you'll see the frailty of his stamina.

Seth was in fact made on purpose by Capcom and even stated by Sirlin not to be a broken boss character, so that he may be a viable tournament character. Just go and check out videos of Sabin using Seth, and he's very beastly with him, however even Sabin will tell you that if you get touched...it hurts incredibly badly.

Anyhow...how can a character be broken, if they have alot of tough match ups? Lol...Ryu is a Seth Destroyer in SF:IV, along with a few other characters up on the top of the Tier List. You can't be broken...if other characters have the advantage over you ya know.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
Jin was only good in that game because he was the only counter to steve.... or was it vice versa 😂

I was told Steve is top in both 5 and 6

Jin was above and beyond anyone in Tekken 4 without a doubt, believe me, as a player who was there at the highest lvls during Tekken 4's heyday, he was the most dominant Tekken character from any Tekken version ever.

Jin's only tough match up in Tekken 4 was Steve, and only because if Steve plays a turtling game, can he gain the advantage, because Jin can't break Steve's defensive game easily, and off of Parry's Jin can't get any real damage. Jin has to get Steve cornered or at the wall, and this where Jin will have the complete advantage due to Jin's insanely overpowered wall game.

Steve was arguably the 3rd best character in Tekken 4, considering in T4 Steve's 121 were the BEST 121's out of any Steve, his Flkr safeness was crazy, he has a mid-hit poke that was super deadly, and his turtling game was out of this world. However, he lost very badly to characters like Lee and definitely Nina who could spank him. #2 in Tekken 4 was Nina...her Hiyashida game was absolutely ridiculous, she would own Steve, Lee, and Ling, all three of those characters are Top 5 in Tekken, however she would die to Jin (Parry>>>>Hiyashida).

Anyhow, seriously, enough of Tekken, let's drop that and continue with Street Fighter IV.

Btw, I don't have my PS3 anymore, so I can't play SF:Iv atm since my brothers took it from my house, when I wasn't home, in fact, all of my home console systems, my siblings came over and took away, the only thing I have now is my PC and some few random Mame fighting games I have to play on it, rofl.

Lastly, some GIGANTIC news...Mike Watson, an OG SFII player is trying to urge the Greatest Street Fighter Player ever to come and be a guest at Evolution 2009.

Yes, you heard me, that would be none other then Tomo The Legend Ohira, without a doubt, the greatest Street Fighter Player of any generation. Some of you may have forgotten, however Tomo Ohira played during the early 90's, in the USA, dominating SFII:WW, CE, and HF with an Iron Fist.

He competed in over 100+ tournaments, and only Four out of those tournaments did he ever place 2nd, while all the rest..yep, 1st place Finishes! The guy was so good, he never ever was knocked into Loser's Bracket...not even once within his 100+ tournament resume.

Now think about that for a second...no other Top Fighting Game player in fighting game history from any other series, whether it be GG, VF, Tekken, KoF etc, etc has ever achieved that level of domination in the respective time they play or are currently playing now.

In fact, he was so good, that even Kuni a player from Japan during the that time frame, said that had Tomo of gone to Japan, he would have easily been #1 over there as well, and forgot the dude's name, only one guy in Japan was considered "maybe" as good as Tomo Ohira at the time.

Believe me when I say this...if you play SFII, OG SFII Players were absolutely monstrous...look to Daigo vs Jeff on Youtube back in 2004 where in most of the match ups, Daigo just got completely schooled by Jeff, who was 10+ years retired, yet he made Daigo look like a non-vet in the game of SFII (Btw, Jeff was considered #2 in the USA at the height of Tomo Ohira...but believe me, he was a far, far and away #2 SFII player).

So look alive, because if Evolution 2009 does bring forth Tomo Ohira to just talk and sign T-Shirts or what not...although I'm retired, I might just go so I can meet the G.O.A.T. in real life. Be prepared folks Evolution 2009 is gonna be SICK, we'll be seeing Top Players from Europe, Japan, and yes, S. Korea coming in to the USA to try and take claim as being the best SF:IV player at EVO.

Ps: I didn't bother to go back and re-edit since it's big and I'm lazy and busy, peace! Gonna get back to my house party I'm doing right now Woot, 4th of July Weekend Baby! Happy 4th of July KMC!

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
Anyways.. I feel that HD remix is more of a contribution to street fighter than SFIV

Originally posted by NemeBro
...You're going to have to explain this one to me. 😬

its because I think that , since they let an ex-tournament goer be in charge of the move revamps..(which I think was such a friggin awesome idea, and wish they would do it more often) that alot of love and consideration went into each characters rebalancing..he didnt just say "lol nerf sagat he's OP".. instead he brought everyone up a few notches..I know that wont happen 'right away' with SFIV.. but I hope it eventually does

Sado: Wait, you think Seth is broken? Now I know you're not tournament level. You'd have to be a complete idiot to think Seth was broken. His zoning game is specatular I'll grant you, but that level of teleport and zone control mastery is quite hard to play, and you can lose half your HP to a combo or two. Hell, most ultras will gravely wound or kill him if he's at 60-70%. Gief and Gouki could probably finish him at 80.
So no, he's not broken. If his HP and stun were higher, and he didn't have certain weaknesses built into his moves, then yes, he would be broken. But the programmers didn't do that. Not like Tekken, which has had 3 SNK boss syndrome bosses. Seth is a boss who's fairly well balanced while still being a strong threat.