Superman vs Goku (Official Thread)

Actually Kento, in the manga Vegeta did train in 450 times gravity (although he nearly killed himself doing so). Still that's hardly comparable to Superman, who, even early in his career (Pre - DOS, Byrne era) could stand in black hole gravity (billions of times earth gravity) and only be slightly encumbered. Later on he could escape from past the event horizon of a black hole (infinite gravity).

Also, ki is not magic, it's life force energy. The difference is explicitly stated in the manga:

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7839/kinotmagicov7.jpg
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/4156/kinotmagicalsobabidiconvu7.gif

Babidi was a sorceror who was dangerous because of his magic, even though his actual fighting ki was weak.

As for the whole "hardest/densest" metal argument, I already posted the scan that showed that it was only stated to be the hardest. Hardness and density are not so closely related.

I posted this before:

Lightweight materials can be much harder than heavier materials.

Uranium is the densest natural element, diamond is the hardest natural substance. Uranium is over 5 times denser than diamond.

To use a comic book example, Adamantium is one of the strongest/hardest materials in the Marvel universe, but it's not particularly heavy.

The scan also shows the size of the block. It was only about 1 - 1.5 meters on each side.

Furthermore, if you think it was the densest, you're missing the entire point of that scene. The whole point was to test the strength/cutting power of the Z sword. For that, they would need something hard, not dense.

Now as for the speed argument, Superman has speed feats that dwarf anything seen in DBZ, both in travelling and reaction. I posted this already, but in case you missed it:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanspeedfight.jpg

Of course now you're going to retort with the stupid "But he doesn't do that in every single comic he appears in, so therefore he can't really do it" argument 🙄

The double standard you hold is amazing. For Goku's feats, you use things that other characters have done and then say he can do it too. But when you are shown Superman's feats, you say they don't count because he doesn't do them in every comic all the time.

Superman doesn't always go all - out all the time. He only uses as much force/power as is necessary for a certain goal. Do you think he is going to use planet - cracking punches and FTL speed against random Intergang thugs? 😆

The fact is that he has demonstrated he is capable of these things, and he does them consistently.

As for the distinction about travel and combat speed, that would only hold for long straight travel, not travel across the world (since he would have to change his course and avoid obstacles at super speed, and if you can react that fast, you can fight that fast).

How can you even think Goku is faster when Superman routinely does things like this?

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanspeed5.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanspeed6.jpg

I didn't pull that from some respect thread (although it is in the respect thread, because I put it there), I saw this in a comic I was reading, just part of my weekly pickup, and here it is. This kind of stuff happens all the time. I guess that kind of blows your "LOL HE ONLY DOES THESE KINDS OF FEATS ONCE A YEAR" argument out of the water.

Now as for your argument that Goku is faster because the manga is drawn all blurry with afterimages, all I have to say is this:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/55/blurryjustartstyleou7.gif
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7133/blurryjustartstyle1dc2.gif
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/197/highspeedfightrw3.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1184/highspeedfightbatman613hu2.jpg

Wow! I guess Mr. Satan, Catwoman, Lady Shiva, and Harley Quinn are also faster than Superman! 😱

http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d6sp.gif

Look at that! Spider-man left more afterimages than any DBZ character ever did! I guess he can leave both Goku and Superman in the dust! Jumpy

Originally posted by Endless Mike
[B]First of all, it was only stated to be the hardest metal, not the densest.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/434/zswordtraining2ac4.gif

Hardness =/= density]

Your hardness is determined by density, how packed the molecules are. Ergo Adamantium is also the densest metals in the Marvel Universe.

Goku stated it was impossible for him to lift 10 tons in base form,

It would be impossible for him to train with 10 tons in base, not lift. Context lulz.

and as soon as it was changed to 40 tons all of his limbs were pulled down and he started sinking, and he had to transform immediately to stay afloat.

And guess what happened when he transformed?

DBZ characters can only move at their highest speeds for short bursts lasting a few seconds at most.

No, their fights only last a few moments and thus it seems like they can only speed burst for a few seconds. Hell Goku and Nappa were going at it full speed in a fight that would have lasted "days" or w/e.

Shiiiiit Goku vs. Freeza only lasted 5 minutes and most of that time was smack talk and power ups.

Your point about Gohan having to track Yamcha and the Saibamen by their ki instead of using his eyes is nullified by the entire android saga.

What?

The androids had no ki,

16, 19 and 20 had no ki. 17 and 18's were stated as infinite.

they could only track them visually.

Yeah and the ones that could were much stronger (Vegeta and Piccolo).

Normal humans can see DBZ fighters for most of their fights, right up to the end of the manga.

I'd imagine they could since Goten and Trunks weren't moving around much.

When Goku fought Yakon, he could track his movements by the air currents he created. If they were anywhere near lightspeed, that would be useless as the air can't move close to that speed:

I forgot Yakon was the staple to which DB characters were to be judged and didn't accidentally get killed because of how terribly weak he was. My mistake.

Not to mention that even at the very end of the manga, they still take several minutes just to fly to another location on earth.

You talking about when Gotenks flew around the world a couple dozen times in one panel then took a nap?

Moving faster than the eye can see is a neat trick, but it's hardly in Superman's speed class. Rorouni Kenshin characters, Captain America, Spider-man, and Wolverine do it all the time.

I forget that Rorouni Kenshin and them also move faster then fellow speedsters could follow.

My mistake.

The distance Tao threw the pillar was never stated.

But we do know it's a much > cl 40 feat.

If Superman uses an ability, it means he has it.

Yup, and fighting at light speed isn't a ability Superman has used, nor is skill comparable to the Z fighters.

Most of the DBZ fans' arguments aren't even based on things Goku has done, they're of the form "Character A did such and such and Goku is way stronger than character A was when he did that, so Goku can do it better".

So what you're saying is, Goku can't blow up a moon because he didn't do it and we should ignore the much weaker Roshi's and Piccolo. Or Goku never walked in greater then 100gs but the much weaker Vegeta did, but it should be ignored because Goku is now weaker then Vegeta.

At least Superman fans use feats that Superman has actually done.

Yeah, one time feats and out of character move sets are awesome.

You have absolutely no way of quantifying DBZ speed,

Like how you have absolutely no way of quantifying Superman's fighting speed. And considering Superman can't even go light in atmosphere, what makes you think it's anywhere near that?

and Superman has so many speed feats (both travelling and reaction) that claiming DBZ characters are faster is pure folly.

No, they use their speed on a consistant basis to fight, unlike Superman. Claiming he's faster is folly.

Ki blasts in DBZ take many forms, they can have burning, electrical, cutting, acid - like, attacks but mostly they are explosive.

Yup and all the stronger ones are explosive.

Picollo never hit Raditz with a moon - destroying attack,

Yes he did.

if he did a large chunk of the earth would have been missing when it hit.

Or Piccolo has control over the spread of the beam. Nah, impossible, DB characters can't control their attacks!

Furthermore, DBZ characters have demonstrated more resistance to ki attacks than they have against physical attacks.

When?

Surviving on the surface of an exploding planet is far less impressive than taking all of the energy required to destroy a planet point - blank.

Having your durability stated as much greater then that of a planet and surviving said explosion while missing 3/4's of your body, however, is.

DBZ characters stopped using tactics and actual martial arts and just resorted to kicking, punching, and spamming ki blasts somewhere around the Saiyan saga.

Yeah because the Martial Arts aren't just kicking, punching and parrying.

Oh wait.

It is

As for Roshi and Krillin, they didn't play three games of janken, they only played one, and started another but Roshi interrupted it by kicking him.

Oh shit, that makes it MUCH less impressive and a couple dozen times faster then humans.

Oh wait,

it doesn't.

And it took one second in total, not "a blink of an eye". Looks like you're the one who hasn't read the manga.

It happened in a blink.

Furthermore, I never said 15,

A couple dozen, I was off by 9. HUGE DIFFERENCE

not really.

Then again, what can I expect from someone who said that Tao threw a metal beam instead of a stone pillar?

Who cares?

🙄

As for the numbers, peak human reaction time is around 0.15 seconds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time)

Krillin and Roshi performed 9 actions in 0.2 seconds (kick, dodge, punch, dodge, spit, dodge, punch, spit, dodge), played one game of janken (I'll count that as 4 actions, 3 hand movements with the last one showing their hand, and then reacting to their opponents' hand), then half of another game (2 more actions), then Roshi jumped and kicked Krillin's head (2 more) and landed (1).

Dividing up the first part between them, we get 6 actions/reactions by Roshi in 0.2 seconds. That amounts to a reaction time of 0.03 repeating seconds (around 4.5 times peak human).

Counting the actions of the second part, we get 9 actions/reactions in 0.8 seconds for Roshi (reaction time of 0.088 seconds, around 1.7 times peak human).

Averaging them out, we get 3.1 times peak human reaction time.

Well guess what, looks like I was wrong. Their reaction times for that feat weren't dozens of times peak human, but only 3 - 4 times. Thanks for helping me correct my error. 😎

Wow, what shitty math based on shit, PRE-Algebra has failed you sir.

Also, considering the very small distances they move, they wouldn't have even had to be moving faster than sound to accomplish that.

So the Dragonball cast was at sound (based on giving them the very least amount of credit you could give on random numbers not based on any fact), at the beginning of the series and using the Daizenshuu numbers Goku was 10,000,000 stronger (and thus faster) as of the end of Frieza saga good shit.

So 10,000,000 sound (lulz Mach 10,000,000) at the end of Frieza saga. That's about 7,000,000,000mph which is about 10x's light

Hay look I can use random math too (oh and these are all based on your poorly put together argument/numbers). 😂

Originally posted by Endless Mike

As for the whole "hardest/densest" metal argument, I already posted the scan that showed that it was only stated to be the hardest. Hardness and density are not so closely related.

Yeah they are, your hardness is determined by density.

Furthermore, if you think it was the densest, you're missing the entire point of that scene. The whole point was to test the strength/cutting power of the Z sword. For that, they would need something hard, not dense.

Yeah and your hardness is determined by your density.

Now as for the speed argument, Superman has speed feats that dwarf anything seen in DBZ, both in travelling

Superman has never moved faster then instant.

and reaction.

Of course now you're going to retort with the stupid "But he doesn't do that in every single comic he appears in, so therefore he can't really do it" argument 🙄

More like he doesn't even do it in 1/50th of the comics he appears in so it's not likely he would suddenly feel the need to do it to Goku.

For Goku's feats, you use things that other characters have done and then say he can do it too.

Yeah because he's stronger, of course this wouldn't make sense to you, you're a Superman supporter.

But when you are shown Superman's feats, you say they don't count because he doesn't do them in every comic all the time.

No, it because he RARELY does it. These things are FEATS for a reason, they only appear once every blue moon. Apparently, this blue moon will happen in a Goku fight (not just a Goku fight, but mulitple times), but not in a Captain Marvel/Dr. Light/Despero/Maxima/John Stewart/Doomsday/Fernus/Asmodel/Triumph/General Eiling/Orion/etc etc etc fight.

Bias much? How about this

For every ONE fight you point out Superman blitzes his opponent for the win at light, I'll point out 15 where he doesn't. Sound fun? I mean, damn, the odds are on your side.

Superman doesn't always go all - out all the time.

Superman has gone all out maybe 3x's in his 20 year post-crisis career.

Do you think he is going to use planet - cracking punches and FTL speed against random Intergang thugs? 😆

Do you think he has EVER used planet cracking and FTL speed?

Actually he hasn't. Superman has never destroyed a planet, or punched someone faster then light (well at least inside the Earth).

The fact is that he has demonstrated he is capable of these things, and he does them consistently.

No he hasn't, and no he doesn't.

As for the distinction about travel and combat speed, that would only hold for long straight travel, not travel across the world (since he would have to change his course and avoid obstacles at super speed, and if you can react that fast, you can fight that fast).

And when has Superman gone faster then light across the world?

How can you even think Goku is faster when Superman routinely does things like this?

Because he is.

This kind of stuff happens all the time.

No it doesn't.

Now as for your argument that Goku is faster because the manga is drawn all blurry with afterimages, all I have to say is this:

Wow! I guess Mr. Satan, Catwoman, Lady Shiva, and Harley Quinn are also faster than Superman! 😱

I forgot Mr. Satan, Catwoman, Lady Shiva and Harley Quinn have done the blurry to speedsters on par with even YAMCHA.

Oh wait, they haven't. Lulz.

Look at that! Spider-man left more afterimages than any DBZ character ever did!

Those weren't after images, those were fight illistrations to diagram their punches. After images would be someone seeing and stating they see multiple Spidermen like what happens to Goku in DB.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Yeah they are, your hardness is determined by density.

Which material is denser?

Gold has a density of 19.30 grams per cubic centimeter.
Iron has a density of 7.80 grams per cubic centimeter.

Going by your reasoning Gold is harder right?

Well lets look at the hardness now. On the Mohs hardness scale Gold rates a 2.5–3. A little harder than a fingernail. Iron rates a 4-5.

Iron is clearly harder than the softer metal of gold, but no where near as dense.

Bit of a descrepincy there between your reasoning and reality...
Pure diamond has a density of 3.52 g/cm3 but rates a hardness of 10.

Diamond is harder than Iron or gold, but is not as dense as either.

Titanium has a density of 4.51 g/cm3 and a hardness of 6.0

If Adamantium was that dense, Wolverine would need class 100+ strength just to stand up.

Goku said that 10 tons would be impossible for him in base form. In the previous panel, South Kaio asked how much weight he was holding. Meaning it was impossible for him to hold 10 tons. It's clear that Superman's strength outclasses him by dozens of orders of magnitude.

He could lift it in SSJ1, but that's not the point. The point is that he needed to do so in order to hold it.

One of the ways you can tell Superman is stronger than Goku is that Goku has to power up to fight or perform feats, while Superman has to constantly hold his full power back in order to avoid hurting people.

WTF are you talking about with Goku and Nappa fighting for days? That makes absolutely no sense.

A large majority of Goku's fight with Frieza in the anime was filler, in the manga it was much shorter. The entire fight wasn't taking place at super speed, as shown by the fact that everything around them was happening at normal speed (rocks falling, waves crashing, lightning striking, Bulma, Gohan, and Picollo doing random crap in the background, Kaio talking to Yamcha and the others in the afterlife and people on earth, etc.)

No, the androids have no ki. They used a different type of energy to power themselves. 19 and 20 absorb ki from enemies and convert it into their own type of energy. 17 and 18 have generators that never run out of energy (giving them effectively unlimited stamina). They still can't be sensed by other characters with their ki senses.

You are now completely changing your argument, since you claimed that Picollo told Gohan that using your eyes to follow a fight was useless and they had to rely on tracking their ki instead.

Goten and Trunks were flying all over the place, up in the air, punching and kicking and dodging at super speed. That's not the only example. Stop making excuses. People could see the Cell games fights, they could see Goku fighting fat Buu, Mr. Satan could see Goku, Vegeta, and Mr. Buu fighting Kid Buu, etc.

Stop trying to dismiss any incident you don't like. Goku was worried about Yakon:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7999/gokuworriedaboutyakonsd5.gif

He had to transform to SSJ2 to defeat him.

Gotenks' flight took 29 minutes (since he started as soon as he fused, fusion lasts 30 minutes, and after Picollo arrived he left immediately and Picollo said he only had one minute remaining in the fusion). Then when he reached Buu's house, he yelled at Buu and immediately defused (meaning he took a whole minute to fly from wherever he was just to another spot on the earth).

Also, Super Buu 3 (with Gohan absorbed) took a minute or so to fly to where Goku, Vegeta, and Baba were before they fused. As soon as Baba took Vegeta back to Earth, Goku sensed him (Baba stated their location was "a long way off" since she was scared of Buu). Goku IT'd to Vegeta's location, and Buu took off after him at top speed. In the meantime, Baba explained some things and left, then Goku and Vegeta had a whole conversation where Vegeta yelled at Goku for not letting him know about SSJ3, and Goku eventually convinced him to fuse. This is all while Buu was racing toward them (at one other spot on the planet) at his top speed. There are plenty more examples. DBZ characters have never, ever demonstrated the ability of Superman or the Flash to zip from one part of the earth to the next hundreds/thousands of kms away in a split second (without teleporting).

I forget that Rorouni Kenshin and them also move faster then fellow speedsters could follow.

My mistake.

They do. Soujiro was faster than Kenshin could see until he trained for him. Not to mention that this argument is completely irrelevant, since it is of the form B > A, C > B, all you can infer from that is that C > A, unless you can actually quantify it it's meaningless.

But we do know it's a much > cl 40 feat.

Which is an inconsistency. Besides, Tao isn't Goku.

Yup, and fighting at light speed isn't a ability Superman has used

Yes he has, I've stated this repeatedly. Wonder Woman Sacrifice Arc, Superman/Batman #13, Obsidian Age, etc.

nor is skill comparable to the Z fighters.

He is far more skilled than they are, the proof is in his respect thread. He has knowledge of pressure points and can fight armed assailants and master martial artists without his powers. If you took away Goku's powers, any random street thug would kick his ass.

If you get to use other characters' feats as Goku's feats, I can do the same for Superman. Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are generally regarded as weaker than Supes, so I guess he has all of their feats now. Supergirl, Powergirl, and all of the other Kryptonians have the same powerset, so he gets all of their feats too. Daxamites are close enough, so that's even more feats for him. Should I go on? 🙄

Your attempt to classify all of Superman's feats as "one time" and "out of character" is not only dishonest, but hypocritical. Roshi only destroyed the moon one time, so I guess he can't. Same with Picollo. Roshi and Krillin's fight that you like to wank about only happened one time, so it doesn't count. Gotenks flying around the world only happened one time, so he can't really do that. Do you see where this line of reasoning gets you?

Superman can go lightspeed in the atmosphere, he just doesn't because it would damage the earth. Goku can't even survive outside of the atmosphere.

Superman only uses his super speed on his opponents if it's necessary. Most of the time, he can just beat them with super strength or heat vision, or his other powers. But he has fought at super speed tons of times, and very effectively as well. Just because he doesn't do it every single time, you can't claim that he can't. That's just stupid.

Or Piccolo has control over the spread of the beam. Nah, impossible, DB characters can't control their attacks!

This shit again? Tell me, have you ever heard of the law of conservation of energy? Energy doesn't just disappear, it has to go somewhere. If that blast had enough power to destroy the moon, then where did all of that power go?

When?

All the time. They routinely get up from ki attacks that leave huge craters in the ground, yet get hurt by punches that only knock them a few dozen meters back. Krillin got hurt and bled from a rock hitting his head.

King Cold's statement was an obvious hyperbole. There's nothing to back it up.

Yeah because the Martial Arts aren't just kicking, punching and parrying.

Oh wait.

It is

You've obviously never studied real martial arts in your life. If you did, you would realize that the stuff you see in DBZ is in no way, shape, or form, martial arts.

Oh shit, that makes it MUCH less impressive and a couple dozen times faster then humans.

Oh wait,

it doesn't.

Actually it does. Your lie that I exposed made it seem twice as impressive. I'd say that's "much".

It happened in a blink.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9991/roshikrillin4lr1.gif

It's obvious you're losing when you have to resort to blatant lies like this. Then again, you've been doing so since the very beginning.

A couple dozen, I was off by 9. HUGE DIFFERENCE

not really.

It's proof that you lied again, and used a strawman fallacy.

Who cares?

Honest debators, unlike you.

Wow, what shitty math based on shit, PRE-Algebra has failed you sir.

So, in other words, you have no refutation for the numbers. Concession accepted.

So the Dragonball cast was at sound (based on giving them the very least amount of credit you could give on random numbers not based on any fact)

If you don't count the canon facts stated in the manga, and the facts of human reaction time.

at the beginning of the series and using the Daizenshuu numbers Goku was 10,000,000 stronger (and thus faster) as of the end of Frieza saga good shit.

So 10,000,000 sound (lulz Mach 10,000,000) at the end of Frieza saga. That's about 7,000,000,000mph which is about 10x's light

Hay look I can use random math too (oh and these are all based on your poorly put together argument/numbers)

Except my math is sound, and yours is not. Power levels do not scale linearly with speed.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Yeah they are, your hardness is determined by density.

So Uranium is the hardest material on earth?

Yeah and your hardness is determined by your density.

Wrong.

Superman has never moved faster then instant.

That's teleportation, not speed.

More like he doesn't even do it in 1/50th of the comics he appears in so it's not likely he would suddenly feel the need to do it to Goku.

In a vs. debate it's generally assumed that both combatants use all of their powers to their utmost abilities. Besides, the OP has both of them thinking the other wiped out their planet. I think he'd be pissed enough. Remember, Superman's use of his powers depends somewhat on the opponent's powers.

Yeah because he's stronger, of course this wouldn't make sense to you, you're a Superman supporter.

Appeal to motive fallacy.

No, it because he RARELY does it. These things are FEATS for a reason, they only appear once every blue moon. Apparently, this blue moon will happen in a Goku fight (not just a Goku fight, but mulitple times), but not in a Captain Marvel/Dr. Light/Despero/Maxima/John Stewart/Doomsday/Fernus/Asmodel/Triumph/General Eiling/Orion/etc etc etc fight.

He's gone all - out on several of those characters. Many times he can't because he doesn't want to kill them, or he's in a place where he could put others in danger. Those considerations don't apply here. Besides, in a vs. debate, characters are expected to perform to their best demonstrated ability.

Bias much? How about this

For every ONE fight you point out Superman blitzes his opponent for the win at light, I'll point out 15 where he doesn't. Sound fun? I mean, damn, the odds are on your side.

And this somehow proves he can't? Your logic is hilarious. Most of the time he doesn't even need to, it would be overkill, or illogical in the current situation, or dangerous to innocents.

Basically, your argument is "Superman can win, but he won't" which is just retarded.

Superman has gone all out maybe 3x's in his 20 year post-crisis career.

Because he holds back and has mental blocks.

Do you think he has EVER used planet cracking and FTL speed?

Actually he hasn't. Superman has never destroyed a planet, or punched someone faster then light (well at least inside the Earth).

Goku has never destroyed a planet either, but that doesn't mean he can't. When Superman fought the earth elementals, he threatened to smash the earth to rubble, and they backed down (beings that embody the earth ought to know he wasn't bluffing). He punched apart an asteroid that he stated could have demolished the earth had it hit. Batman said he could casually crack the earth in two. Superman said the same thing about Supergirl. Superman has fought multiple enemies capable of destroying planets and more and won. He's punched through GL shields, which can take supernovae and black holes.

As for punching someone faster than light, of course he wouldn't do that in the earth's atmosphere, that was my whole point! It would completely wreck the planet. That's why he doesn't do those kinds of things unless he absolutely has to.

No he hasn't, and no he doesn't.[quote]

Denial doesn't change the facts. What do you want, Superman to end every comic in three panels by flying around the earth at FTL speed and punching every criminal into space (and as a side effect making the planet uninhabitable due to the damage he caused)?

[quote]And when has Superman gone faster then light across the world?[quote]

When he raced the Flash.

[quote]Because he is.

You have not provided any proof or evidence of this claim whatsoever. You have not even attempted to quantify Goku's speed, other than "LOLZ HE LEAVES TEH BLURRY LINES SO HE IS TEH FASTZORZ!!!!!111!!!SHIFT-1!1"

🙄

No it doesn't.

Yes it does. I see it in the comics all the time. I'm a major comic reader, and you're just a dishonest liar. Just off the top of my head, in the recent comics I've read featuring Superman, in addition to that feat, he moved Batman several kms before Batman could react, he got punched to Tokyo and flew back in a split second, he flew from Vega (23 light - years away) to earth in a few minutes, etc.

I forgot Mr. Satan, Catwoman, Lady Shiva and Harley Quinn have done the blurry to speedsters on par with even YAMCHA.

Oh wait, they haven't. Lulz.

Oh yes, the great Yamcha, the benchmark of speed. Isn't this the same guy who won, like, 1 fight in the entire manga (and he needed Bulma and Roshi's help)?

Those weren't after images, those were fight illistrations to diagram their punches. After images would be someone seeing and stating they see multiple Spidermen like what happens to Goku in DB.

Oh, so unless someone points it out, it doesn't count. Way to make up arbitrary rules. 🙄

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Oh, so unless someone points it out, it doesn't count. Way to make up arbitrary rules. 🙄

Like that "hardness is determined by density" line.

Goku was lifting 8 tons easily in base form, he was lifting 2 on each limb, he can lift more than 10 tons in base, but less that 40.

Ok, is good this debate is still on, I was failing in my school and this is a time consuming debate, I will intervene sometimes.

My point is that Goku is underestimate and the truth is change in this Thread to make Superman superior.

First of all Endless Mike Goku never said 10 tons each was impossible, that is not the original translation, he said he won’t be able to move, that scan is probably translate by someone like Creshok.

Second that it can be considered a low feat of Goku, and even so is not his maximum strength, still has 2 big Supersaiyans transformations, in between, Piccolo is equal to SSJ1 and is far, very far behind from Supersaiyan 2, to the point that in the manga he curse his powerlessness to Cell, who is inferior to SSJ 2 Gohan, who is inferior to SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. even with plot holes, you can not denie that if Cell or Freeza appear in the end of the Manga, they will be disintegrate easily.

And like i said the last time, Science from DC and Marvel is different from Science DB, impossible to compare, DB Universe is more towards the fantasy.

Second that it can be considered a low feat of Goku, and even so is not his maximum strength, still has 2 big Supersaiyans transformations, in between, Piccolo is equal to SSJ1 and is far, very far behind from Supersaiyan 2, to the point that in the manga he curse his powerlessness to Cell, who is inferior to SSJ 2 Gohan, who is inferior to SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. even with plot holes, you can not denied that if Cell or Freeza appear in the end of the Manga, they will be disintegrate easily.

And like i said the last time, Science from DC and Marvel is different from Science DB, impossible to compare, DB Universe is more towards the fantasy.

Dbz Characters are beings of energy, the size of their attacks does not matter, the power they have evolve since DB, mostly the Daimao Arc, is when DB change from the silly Fantasy, but yet Goku has an evolution of speed and power.

The same Blast that disintegrate a city from Piccolo Dai mao is nothing Compare with a blast from Raditz, and Nappa, and so on, until the Buu Saga, a blast power increase in millions times according to the history that is undeniable.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Your hardness is determined by density, how packed the molecules are. Ergo Adamantium is also the densest metals in the Marvel Universe.

Goku stated it was impossible for him to lift 10 tons in base form,

It would be impossible for him to train with 10 tons in base, not lift. Context lulz.

and as soon as it was changed to 40 tons all of his limbs were pulled down and he started sinking, and he had to transform immediately to stay afloat.

And guess what happened when he transformed?

DBZ characters can only move at their highest speeds for short bursts lasting a few seconds at most.

No, their fights only last a few moments and thus it seems like they can only speed burst for a few seconds. Hell Goku and Nappa were going at it full speed in a fight that would have lasted "days" or w/e.

Shiiiiit Goku vs. Freeza only lasted 5 minutes and most of that time was smack talk and power ups.

Your point about Gohan having to track Yamcha and the Saibamen by their ki instead of using his eyes is nullified by the entire android saga.

What?

The androids had no ki,

16, 19 and 20 had no ki. 17 and 18's were stated as infinite.

they could only track them visually.

Yeah and the ones that could were much stronger (Vegeta and Piccolo).

Normal humans can see DBZ fighters for most of their fights, right up to the end of the manga.

I'd imagine they could since Goten and Trunks weren't moving around much.

When Goku fought Yakon, he could track his movements by the air currents he created. If they were anywhere near lightspeed, that would be useless as the air can't move close to that speed:

I forgot Yakon was the staple to which DB characters were to be judged and didn't accidentally get killed because of how terribly weak he was. My mistake.

Not to mention that even at the very end of the manga, they still take several minutes just to fly to another location on earth.

You talking about when Gotenks flew around the world a couple dozen times in one panel then took a nap?

Moving faster than the eye can see is a neat trick, but it's hardly in Superman's speed class. Rorouni Kenshin characters, Captain America, Spider-man, and Wolverine do it all the time.

I forget that Rorouni Kenshin and them also move faster then fellow speedsters could follow.

My mistake.

The distance Tao threw the pillar was never stated.

But we do know it's a much > cl 40 feat.

If Superman uses an ability, it means he has it.

Yup, and fighting at light speed isn't a ability Superman has used, nor is skill comparable to the Z fighters.

Most of the DBZ fans' arguments aren't even based on things Goku has done, they're of the form "Character A did such and such and Goku is way stronger than character A was when he did that, so Goku can do it better".

So what you're saying is, Goku can't blow up a moon because he didn't do it and we should ignore the much weaker Roshi's and Piccolo. Or Goku never walked in greater then 100gs but the much weaker Vegeta did, but it should be ignored because Goku is now weaker then Vegeta.

At least Superman fans use feats that Superman has actually done.

Yeah, one time feats and out of character move sets are awesome.

You have absolutely no way of quantifying DBZ speed,

Like how you have absolutely no way of quantifying Superman's fighting speed. And considering Superman can't even go light in atmosphere, what makes you think it's anywhere near that?

and Superman has so many speed feats (both travelling and reaction) that claiming DBZ characters are faster is pure folly.

No, they use their speed on a consistant basis to fight, unlike Superman. Claiming he's faster is folly.

Ki blasts in DBZ take many forms, they can have burning, electrical, cutting, acid - like, attacks but mostly they are explosive.

Yup and all the stronger ones are explosive.

Picollo never hit Raditz with a moon - destroying attack,

Yes he did.

if he did a large chunk of the earth would have been missing when it hit.

Or Piccolo has control over the spread of the beam. Nah, impossible, DB characters can't control their attacks!

Furthermore, DBZ characters have demonstrated more resistance to ki attacks than they have against physical attacks.

When?

Surviving on the surface of an exploding planet is far less impressive than taking all of the energy required to destroy a planet point - blank.

Having your durability stated as much greater then that of a planet and surviving said explosion while missing 3/4's of your body, however, is.

DBZ characters stopped using tactics and actual martial arts and just resorted to kicking, punching, and spamming ki blasts somewhere around the Saiyan saga.

Yeah because the Martial Arts aren't just kicking, punching and parrying.

Oh wait.

It is

As for Roshi and Krillin, they didn't play three games of janken, they only played one, and started another but Roshi interrupted it by kicking him.

Oh shit, that makes it MUCH less impressive and a couple dozen times faster then humans.

Oh wait,

it doesn't.

And it took one second in total, not "a blink of an eye". Looks like you're the one who hasn't read the manga.

It happened in a blink.

Furthermore, I never said 15,

A couple dozen, I was off by 9. HUGE DIFFERENCE

not really.

Then again, what can I expect from someone who said that Tao threw a metal beam instead of a stone pillar?

Who cares?

🙄

As for the numbers, peak human reaction time is around 0.15 seconds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time)

Krillin and Roshi performed 9 actions in 0.2 seconds (kick, dodge, punch, dodge, spit, dodge, punch, spit, dodge), played one game of janken (I'll count that as 4 actions, 3 hand movements with the last one showing their hand, and then reacting to their opponents' hand), then half of another game (2 more actions), then Roshi jumped and kicked Krillin's head (2 more) and landed (1).

Dividing up the first part between them, we get 6 actions/reactions by Roshi in 0.2 seconds. That amounts to a reaction time of 0.03 repeating seconds (around 4.5 times peak human).

Counting the actions of the second part, we get 9 actions/reactions in 0.8 seconds for Roshi (reaction time of 0.088 seconds, around 1.7 times peak human).

Averaging them out, we get 3.1 times peak human reaction time.

Well guess what, looks like I was wrong. Their reaction times for that feat weren't dozens of times peak human, but only 3 - 4 times. Thanks for helping me correct my error. 😎

Wow, what shitty math based on shit, PRE-Algebra has failed you sir.

Also, considering the very small distances they move, they wouldn't have even had to be moving faster than sound to accomplish that.

So the Dragonball cast was at sound (based on giving them the very least amount of credit you could give on random numbers not based on any fact), at the beginning of the series and using the Daizenshuu numbers Goku was 10,000,000 stronger (and thus faster) as of the end of Frieza saga good shit.

So 10,000,000 sound (lulz Mach 10,000,000) at the end of Frieza saga. That's about 7,000,000,000mph which is about 10x's light

Hay look I can use random math too (oh and these are all based on your poorly put together argument/numbers). 😂

You sir are made of win. All the supefan boys do is make up magic math and numbers because REAL LIFE math and science apply to FICTIONAL UNIVERSES lolol 😆

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Ok, is good this debate is still on, I was failing in my school and this is a time consuming debate, I will intervene sometimes.

My point is that Goku is underestimate and the truth is change in this Thread to make Superman superior.

First of all Endless Mike Goku never said 10 tons each was impossible, that is not the original translation, he said he won’t be able to move, that scan is probably translate by someone like Creshok.

Second that it can be considered a low feat of Goku, and even so is not his maximum strength, still has 2 big Supersaiyans transformations, in between, Piccolo is equal to SSJ1 and is far, very far behind from Supersaiyan 2, to the point that in the manga he curse his powerlessness to Cell, who is inferior to SSJ 2 Gohan, who is inferior to SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. even with plot holes, you can not denie that if Cell or Freeza appear in the end of the Manga, they will be disintegrate easily.

And like i said the last time, Science from DC and Marvel is different from Science DB, impossible to compare, DB Universe is more towards the fantasy.

Strenght doesn't equate to power. Future Trunks was stronger physically than Cell yet he still lost. Heck Vegeta should be physically superior to Gokou if anything.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Goku was lifting 8 tons easily in base form, he was lifting 2 on each limb, he can lift more than 10 tons in base, but less that 40.

"How much is he lifting?"
"2 tons"

A 2 tons car will not magically weigh 4 tons if you use both hands to lift it.

Originally posted by Sarutobi700
You sir are made of win. All the supefan boys do is make up magic math and numbers because REAL LIFE math and science apply to FICTIONAL UNIVERSES lolol 😆

I love the way that since science isn't in your favor you choose to discard it.

You can't win. Evidence, logic and reasoning are not on your side, neither is science or physics.

Its why you have to discard them and yell about it being fantasy.

Well no duh, its fictional. there'd be no point in even comparing any cross company characters without a basis of comparison. And what i the basis we use? the world that both are based off of. Ours.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
First of all Endless Mike Goku never said 10 tons each was impossible, that is not the original translation, he said he won’t be able to move, that scan is probably translate by someone like Creshok.

the manga doesn't agree with your assesments so you're going to change it from what it is to suit your needs?

Pathetic.

Actually Creshok is does say 2 tons each...well according to this translation anyways.

Originally posted by Vvendeta

I notice the confusion, When King Kai ask Goku : What about 10 tons?, they were talking all the time about each of the weighs, not the whole,
Ok, this is the last time i post this, i think is clear now.

That tranlation is the original. made in USA/Canada SHonenp SHomp and Sold in all Europe, that is the Canon Translation.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
[B]If Adamantium was that dense, Wolverine would need
Goku said that 10 tons would be impossible for him in base form. In the previous panel, South Kaio asked how much weight he was holding. Meaning it was impossible for him to hold 10 tons. It's clear that Superman's strength outclasses him by dozens of orders of magnitude.

Originally posted by Kento
Won't be able to move...That means he can't lift it at all. If he can't move then ten tons is too much for him and would be impossible. Same way to say things just worded different.

Strenght doesn't equate to power. Future Trunks was stronger physically than Cell yet he still lost. Heck Vegeta should be physically superior to Gokou if anything.

Goku saying he won´t be able to move as he was doing it, is different than saying is imposible, and he was not Glowing at the time he was levitating. From 8 tons (2 tons each limbs) to 40 tons he just need to do 5 Kai o Ken, SSJ 1 is better and easier transformation for Goku, he dominate it perfectly after the Cell Saga.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
[B]He could lift it in SSJ1, but that's not the point. The point is that he needed to do so in order to hold it.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
[B]One of the ways you can tell Superman is stronger than Goku is that Goku has to power up to fight or perform feats, while Superman has to constantly hold his full power back in order to avoid hurting people.