Originally posted by Kento
Assuming Vegetto could even go ssj3 since nobody really knows. And I think Gohan reached his full power and that he couldn't go ssj because the Old Kaioshin told him to do what he does to go ssj and he never went ssj. And if he could have went ssj he wouldn't have let himself get beat around by Buu cause he didn't think Gokou was going to show up since Gokou was suppose to be dead and unable to come back.
Well you know there is a lot of wonky logic to some DBZ fights, like Goku not fighting Super Buu as SSJ3 and instead only fighting as a SSJ2. Better yet, Goku not using IT to bring in Gohan or Gotenks while fighting Kid Buu on the Ki planet when it look like they were all going to die. Vegetto could have gone to SSJ3 considering Goku was able too, and remember Gohans "mystic"power up is derived from hiw own hidden powers which are completly seperate from the powers of a SSJ. Technically speaking, he could have went SSJ2 while as his mystic self....although it was something that was never really made clear by Akira.
Originally posted by The Great GalenGokou never really fought Super Buu and the one time he was going to actually fight he went ssj3 because he had no choice except to hold off Buu until Gohan found the earring when Super Buu had Gotenks absorbed but Buu stopped when Gotenks unfused and Gokou said Gohan could beat him then. Gokou and Vegeta only went ssj when they were going to fight Super Buu but they never really fight him, and just a bit before that Gokou already said they'd both be killed by Buu because they were to weak. Then Vegeta pulls out Fat Buu, Kid Buu forms, destroys Earth, Gokou goes ssj3 fights Kid Buu yada yada. Gokou even says himself he doesn't have time to get them. Gokou doesn't even IT to Kaioshin planet. Kaioshin comes down and saves them. Plus it's not like Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, and Gohan can't just be wished back anyways. Don't know why them being killed really made Vegeta mad. Sure Gohan's mystic power-up came from his own hidden power but there had to be a reason why Old Kaioshin told him to do the Super Saiyan thing and he didn't transform. And unlike Gokou who didn't really fight all those times Gohan was in the middle of fighting. When Gokou was actually fighting he turned ssj3 and Vegeta turned ssj2 when he actually fought. Not that either form helped them. Vegeta was nearly killed in a minute, and Gokou lost all his energy just by trying to power up.
Well you know there is a lot of wonky logic to some DBZ fights, like Goku not fighting Super Buu as SSJ3 and instead only fighting as a SSJ2. Better yet, Goku not using IT to bring in Gohan or Gotenks while fighting Kid Buu on the Ki planet when it look like they were all going to die. Vegetto could have gone to SSJ3 considering Goku was able too, and remember Gohans "mystic"power up is derived from hiw own hidden powers which are completly seperate from the powers of a SSJ. Technically speaking, he could have went SSJ2 while as his mystic self....although it was something that was never really made clear by Akira.
As for Vegetto going ssj3...Just because Gokou could doesn't mean Vegetto could. Vegeta couldn't and it seemed like Vegeta was a lot more dominate personality anyway. He was cocky, toyed with his opponent, actually had a plan, and combined the names Vegeta and Kakarotto.
Originally posted by Kento
Gokou never really fought Super Buu and the one time he was going to actually fight he went ssj3 because he had no choice except to hold off Buu until Gohan found the earring when Super Buu had Gotenks absorbed but Buu stopped when Gotenks unfused and Gokou said Gohan could beat him then. Gokou and Vegeta only went ssj when they were going to fight Super Buu but they never really fight him, and just a bit before that Gokou already said they'd both be killed by Buu because they were to weak. Then Vegeta pulls out Fat Buu, Kid Buu forms, destroys Earth, Gokou goes ssj3 fights Kid Buu yada yada. Gokou even says himself he doesn't have time to get them. Gokou doesn't even IT to Kaioshin planet. Kaioshin comes down and saves them. Plus it's not like Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, and Gohan can't just be wished back anyways. Don't know why them being killed really made Vegeta mad. Sure Gohan's mystic power-up came from his own hidden power but there had to be a reason why Old Kaioshin told him to do the Super Saiyan thing and he didn't transform. And unlike Gokou who didn't really fight all those times Gohan was in the middle of fighting. When Gokou was actually fighting he turned ssj3 and Vegeta turned ssj2 when he actually fought. Not that either form helped them. Vegeta was nearly killed in a minute, and Gokou lost all his energy just by trying to power up.As for Vegetto going ssj3...Just because Gokou could doesn't mean Vegetto could. Vegeta couldn't and it seemed like Vegeta was a lot more dominate personality anyway. He was cocky, toyed with his opponent, actually had a plan, and combined the names Vegeta and Kakarotto.
Well bottomline is we will never know, could Gohan have gone SSJ2 at his mystic self...who knows. Could Vegeto go SSJ3...again who knows. Tthats why I intially stated they were both underdevloped...we will never know there true power.
I think we know Gohan's because he wasn't fooling around and loosing while I do agree with Vegetto being unknown since he didn't really try. If you think about it a few people are unknown at full power. Gokou because he can't use it alive, Buu w/Gotenks absorbed because he toys with Gohan but Gotenks unfused before any major fight happens for him, Vegetto obviously, and Kid Buu. Possibly even Gohan though I don't think he's in the group since I don't think he can go ssj and he can't get mad and get stronger anymore.
Originally posted by Dark-JaxxThat's phenomenol all right:
After reading back on this thread, this guy's posts seem remarkably similar to someone who posted in this thread and was banned...Just throwing that out there.
Originally posted by Phenomenol
READ THE DAMN comic the damn ALIEN helped Superman escape the black Hole...Superman didn't go past the speed of light! He didn't escape under his own speed.Mike can you read? Seriously...Can you read? Or is english your second language. 🙄
Originally posted by Phenomenol
I don't need to, I just showed you how Supes FAILED to escape a Blackhole with his speed.
Originally posted by Unrivaled
2. As for your so called escaping a black hole (surviving one) HA..you forgot these notice how he DIDN"T escape it with his speed notice how the comic says he was going to die if he stayed...
Originally posted by Unrivaled
Your entire post is ridiculous...Because EVERYTHING you said completely contradicted what was said or happened in the scans I posted. Read them again CAREFULLY.
😆@Dvampire: Your statement is ridiculous, he would have been killed by energy suffiecient enough to destroy a planet.
Goku >>>>>>>Supes.
mystic or "chou" gohan is gohan at his best. the old kaioshin unlocked gohans full potential. so mystic gohan is the most powerful gohan can possibly be because it is gohan with ALL his potential unlocked. he can't go ssj anymore because he is at his most powerful at his base now. the mystic powerup is far superior to ssj because it doesn't suffer energy loss and causes no strain. besides, if an ssj transformation could make him more powerful, he certainly would have doen it when buu was kicking his teeth in.
Originally posted by Vvendeta
[B]1. Piccolo insist in the question and Goku smile, Goku also tell this to Vegeta before the final battle against Kid buu, what more prove do you need?.
What? He told Picollo he couldn't beat him, Goten and Trunks were not within ear shot. I believe he actually could beat him, he was just unsure about it.
2.Never said IT replace speed he can use it and combine it with his many techniques he has
Yet it hardly gives him an advantage.
If you are saying that Bulma follow the whole fight here, then I just simple disagree with you. there are moments were they are explosions, or like Zarbon, he is covering his face and Vegeta appears behind, does not mean Bulma follow the whole fight
Are you even listening to me? I never said that normal humans can follow entire fights, just that DBZ characters can only move fast enough to be invisible in short bursts.
the same when Cell fought Goku and Gohan, there are moments when Cell is making his force field, and you use that to say the public watch the whole battle, or when Satan watch moments of explosions and you say he is watching the whole fight, all contradict the standard speed of fight that Goku and the Z have, since DB Goku 12 years old.
They can see most of the fight, just not the times when they move too fast to be seen. 12 - year - old Goku never had an entire fight that was too fast to be seen (unless you count those instances where he defeats the opponent immediately as a fight).
*snip*
What does that prove? I already said they can move invisibly for short bursts.
4.What is more logical to think, that the normal humans can watch some moments when the characters talk, or fight in the same position? Or they really can watch the whole fights and movement?
False dichotomy fallacy. I never said they could see the whole fight, just some parts of it.
. I don’t think they got slower, I think there are more plop holes
Sorry, I generally don't make fun of people's spelling, but that made me snicker uncontrollably.
n the DB history after Freeza Saga; I think that Toriyama plan well his history until the Freeza Saga, an improvise in the following Sagas, he confess in the interviews he didn’t know how to finish the Cell and Buu saga, he respond of what the fans wanted instead of what he was trying to put (Gohan the new hero) he got stress and Tired of do more DB, therefore he make plop holes. But the standard speed of Goku in a crossover is not what you believe, and your argument of meaningless make the whole DB manga Meanigless, there is no Quantification in DB, only the history that tells us that the characters grow stronger and faster.
If it only happened once or twice, then I could accept your reasoning that it's a plot hole, but it happens all the time, in every fight that normal people watch.
And if you yourself admit you can't quantify their speed, then how can you claim they are as fast as Superman?
6. No, and this is your big weapon , you know nobody will be able to quantify speed, Toriyama didn’t care of explain his feats( as I imaging, he let the guys in the anime show what is suppose to be, The manga and the anime run at the same time)
Yet he didn't create the anime, the most he did was contribute a few character designs. The anime is not canon. Not to mention it shows things like ki blasts moving slower than bullets, so sticking to the manga is probably best for both of us.
have one feat tough, Freeza trap Goku in a force field and trough him to the floor, the force field explode and supposedly kill Goku, miles away piccolo is impress with freeza might, and then he said to krillin and Gohan not to worry, Goku can match Freeza might, then Goku appear behind him, he escape the force field in the moment of his explosion, that show how fast he is in normal form, all in the manga.
Yes, I'm familiar with that incident. Yet how do you know it was "miles away"? Have you scaled it? How do you know the detonation velocity of Frieza's ki ball?
7. Well, what I was trying to said is that a energy attack base on life force it was never use against Superman, now it depends of a writer if affect him or not, Goku has vast amount of energy that is not possible to calculate, like the reach other dimensions through the universe, you would say is meaningless, but I don’t think so, in a crossover it will be take it in consideration, IMO.
Okay, taking it into consideration: When they fight, people in other dimensions will be able to feel it (if they have sensory abilities comparable to those of the Kaioshins). How does that affect the actual fight?
8. A more time he is in red sun yes, but is possible that his bio field still protect him, otherwise is an inconsistency, Superman biofield is the key of his invulnerability. So all red sun feat is not as impressive as some believe.
What do you mean? The fact that he took the heat and gravity of the red sun even as it was draining his powers makes it even more impressive.
9. I always said superman invulnerability is superior to Goku´s, and the reason he wont be kill by any attack of Goku, but that does not mean IMO Goku could damage Superman, the point of view depends who would write the crossovers, DC or Birth Studio.
But we're not writing a crossover. We're debating a hypothetical scenario. There's a big difference.
Of course they have the durability to withstand one, in DB master roshi even has the power to blow up the moon with a blast
That has nothing to do with durability. Not to mention it takes some 1800 times more energy to destroy the earth than the moon.
later in dbz everyone is about a million times stronger
You came up with this number how? Show your math.
and they take blasts from each other all the time.
Most of which don't do any more than create small craters in the ground.
ssj Trunks held Freeza's death ball in his bare hand like it was nothing
Filler.
Freeza took the spirit bomb
Which only created a small crater.
vegeta took the spirit bomb, etc.
Which wasn't even complete.
Not to mention all of this is totally irrelevant, since you don't even understand how a black hole works. The gravitational forces near the event horizon tear matter apart on a subatomic level, and once you get past the event horizon, energy and matter can't escape (unless it's moving faster than light, which is impossible IRL).
Since we have no meter of time we have no way of telling how long it took. Please prove that it is instant between panels
I think you're being overly pedantic here. He couldn't have stood there for minutes on end powering up, for obvious reasons.
Trunks grabbing Freeza's death ball which he uses specifically to destroy planets.
Filler.
Far weaker characters early on in db and dbz show they can blow up planets, do you really think Master Roshi in dragonball has any blast that is more powerful than someone like Cell's? You think the blasts that Cell hurt Goku with are weaker than what Roshi used on the moon? Do you think Roshi could kill a ssj3 Goku?
DBZ characters can repel/weaken the effect of their opponents' ki attacks if their own ki is higher. For example, they can punch or kick away ki blasts before they explode, but only if they are fired by someone who is not much stronger than them. Durability against ki attacks is different from durability against physical attacks in the DBU.
As far as the earth still being there, Freeza was one of the only characters who could live in outerspace so I doubt the other fighers would let their attacks blow up the planet they were fighting on.
So they can magically make the attack have the power to destroy a planet, but only create a small crater?
hen Vegeta used his final flash on Cell they all thought he lost it and was going to let his final flash destroy earth but he ended up controlling it, its likely that they all control their energy so they don't destroy the planet.
He controlled it by directing it into space, where it flew off harmlessly. That doesn't apply to most DBZ blasts, which don't fly off into space.
I was obviously talking about them being durable enough to take planet destroying blasts. Sorry weirdo I'm no fan of dbz, its ok but there are plenty of way better animes out there, unlike you some of us can debate without having to be complete fanboys.
Actually, you said Goku has the durability to take a black hole.
1. I already said what I had to say about all this "filler" nonsense. Do you have a scan of what happended in the manga after freeza used his deathball? and Freeza exploded the blast right after Trunks held it in his hand and Trunks was fine.
No, because that never happened in the manga. In the manga Frieza just fired a generic ki blast at Trunks, who dodged it and killed him.
2. Like I said above Freeza's deathball exploded above the earth in Trunks' hand, everything wasn't destroyed but we know for a fact that his deathball is a planet destroyer.
It's not even canon. Said attack never appeared in the manga.
This is going in circles.We know it's a planet destroyer, we've seen one that size obliterate a planet
Only in filler and a non - canon movie.
we saw a small one destroy Namek.
That was a different attack (it was black, not orange), and it was via a chain reaction.
No, I'm saying that any attack they are using and intending to do real damage with could destroy a planet if they used it with that purpose. I can't imagine ssj2 Cell using attacks weaker than master roshi.
Obviously he has stronger attacks, but not all of them are.
As for you, Phenomenol (yes, you're little sockpuppet isn't fooling anyone), Superman did escape the black hole. Here are the rest of the scans:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanescapesblackhole1.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanescapesblackhole2.jpg
You can clearly see him flying out of it.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Obviously he has stronger attacks, but not all of them are.As for you, Phenomenol (yes, you're little sockpuppet isn't fooling anyone), Superman did escape the black hole. Here are the rest of the scans:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanescapesblackhole1.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanescapesblackhole2.jpgYou can clearly see him flying out of it.
LOL at the generals comment at the end.
Originally posted by Creshoskwell he's kinda right, goku mnaged to absorb the energy of all of ther universes living beings but that doesn't mean he can take that blast
You're from one of those DBZ fanboy schools for retarded idiots aren't you?🙂
So by your definition of tanking, even though he still took enough energy to destroy a galaxy. No matter what your idiotic ass says or pulls definitions out of your ass.
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Going to die from wait for it...the entropy bomb that followed the 50x supernovas explosion **** ass,try pulling your head out of gokus nuts sometime.
*Facepalm*
Nothing YOU SAID MATCHES WITH THE COMIC..Why is it you can't pull Superman's cape off your bed spread?
Planet Destroying blast >>>>Supes period.
Goku wins.
@Endless Mike: Your scans are irreleavnt because I posted scans showing HOW Superman was going to escape.
lol its funny how every dbz feats gets tremendously downplayed while the most obscure Superman feats are counted as evidence for anything, no one mentions his low end showings like getting ko'd by a truck blowing up. But they'll bring up the dbz comedic relief (burned by lava) like it proves low durability even though we've also seen Goku take a bath in lava and be fine after the greatest of hell's temperature extremes in GT. and when all else fails yell FILLER and provide no scans. Toriyama considers the anime cannon, Toriyama>>>>>Random fanboy.
one hting about the scan nin question, it seems there were two forces i nthe comic one being the suneater exploding two being the bomb he used
the scan acknowledges that superman took a shockwave (doesn't specify from what) and that the radiatio nof the suneater would have killed him
if a suneater is equa lto 50 supernovas the nthe radiation is the energy, supernova's dont explode they release a shockwave and then just radiate their energy outwards
so based on that scan superman took the shockwave of 50 supernovas and nothing else looking at how closely yo uguys monitor what is said in the comics (especially with dbz manga scans) it would only be fair to do the same with superman comics, since it only says and shows him being hit by a shockwave the most we ca nsay is he was hit by the shockwave of 50 supernovas but not 50 supernovas
Originally posted by Unrivaled
*Facepalm*
Nothing YOU SAID MATCHES WITH THE COMIC..Why is it you can't pull Superman's cape off your bed spread?
Planet Destroying blast >>>>Supes period.
Goku wins.@Endless Mike: Your scans are irreleavnt because I posted scans showing HOW Superman was going to escape.
Originally posted by TheBadguy
lol its funny how every dbz feats gets tremendously downplayed while the most obscure Superman feats are counted as evidence for anything, no one mentions his low end showings like getting ko'd by a truck blowing up. But they'll bring up the dbz comedic relief (burned by lava) like it proves low durability even though we've also seen Goku take a bath in lava and be fine after the greatest of hell's temperature extremes in GT. and when all else fails yell FILLER and provide no scans. Toriyama considers the anime cannon, Toriyama>>>>>Random fanboy.
..if yo uhave an interview or something of toriyama saying that wouldnt that mean that the anime could be included?
no one mentions his low end showings like getting ko'd by a truck blowing up.
If it was in the last 10 years post a scan, otherwise it was irrelevant.
it would only be fair to do the same with superman comics, since it only says and shows him being hit by a shockwave the most we ca nsay is he was hit by the shockwave of 50 supernovas but not 50 supernovas
What does a Super Nova have apart from a shockwave?
lol its funny how every dbz feats gets tremendously downplayed while the most obscure Superman feats are counted as evidence for anything,
Please you have no idea. I have a few vague feats that put Superman at galaxy busting levels if they weren't hyperbole. For example:
Supergirl fought a being who said he had the power of countless galaxies and every attack he threw as equal to exploding suns. She dropped him with no effort and he was unable to hurt her or Superman. Seeing as Superman is much more powerful than Supergirl he'd have no trouble dropping this supposedly sky father level being
Hyperbole? Definitely. But no more hyperbole than random threats of planetary destruction and above that the DBZ crowd rely on. for their arguments.
