Originally posted by AvlonSee I dont get that you are saying here. Its like you are saying since he hasnt create red solar energy that his power cosmic would fail him in this regard. It wouldnt. If you still think so show me a time where the power cosmic has failed otherwise he could definitely assess Superman's weaknesses.
Has anyone tried? We know Supes has fast fighting speed. Can you say the same for Surfer? If so, show the examples.It's up for you to prove that he can since you are making a case for it. Is any of it on panel? How would he know? Cosmic awareness is not that specific to characters and pretty useless in battle.
I haven't suggested that Surfer ignore anything. The more likely scenario is Superman using superior speed and strength to KO Surfer. SS has options (as does Supes) but the standard scenario would probably involve SS shooting cosmic blasts and Superman flying in and punching as that is what they both do most of the time.
If people want to make elaborate scenarios for Surfer, they can be used for Clark as well.
And your opinion is fine. It's a double/triple edged sword though. Each are weak to different things so durability is relative. However, Thanos and Supes are both far stronger than Surfer with Thanos and Supes being peers in that category. Thanos also being much slower than Superman handles Surfer with ease. Amazingly, Thanos is also weak to a mysterious green energy and SS cosmic awareness sure never told him how to create that or that the weakness even existed...
If no one has dominated the Silver Surfer through speed and since the Surfer can fly very fast on his board I dont think it makes any sense to say that a speed blitz could do anything to him that would make him unable to react per say. Surfer isnt a slow character has met many powerful characters and has a shitload of appearances so if you cant find someone using Superman like speed dominating him then imo you dont have anything.
I must have missed the part where you proved Superman has superior speed and the scans where Surfer has lost due to being too slow to react. When has the Silver Surfer been ko'd easily? I can name a few times for Superman but I cant seem to recall any for the Silver Surfer. Your whole argument seems to relying on the fact that the Surfer doesnt fight to the best of his ability and just shoots blasts.
Thanos and Superman arent peers in terms of strength and brawling ability by any means. Thanos is also miles ahead in terms of durability. Superman is an impressive top tier but Thanos is well beyond that.
Drax was created to kill Thanos by Kronos. Big difference as it has nothing do with cosmic power failing there. He also cheapshotted him.
Originally posted by quanchi112
See I dont get that you are saying here. Its like you are saying since he hasnt create red solar energy that his power cosmic would fail him in this regard. It wouldnt. If you still think so show me a time where the power cosmic has failed otherwise he could definitely assess Superman's weaknesses.
It's not my job to prove that he can't, it's up to you to prove that he can with some type of on panel evidence. It's your claim, not mine.
Unless they are fighting indoors, it wouldn't matter much anyway.
So now, those examples? We know Superman has some nice examples of fighting through red solar energy, now where are some of SS making that type of energy on panel?
Originally posted by quanchi112
If no one has dominated the Silver Surfer through speed and since the Surfer can fly very fast on his board I dont think it makes any sense to say that a speed blitz could do anything to him that would make him unable to react per say. Surfer isnt a slow character has met many powerful characters and has a shitload of appearances so if you cant find someone using Superman like speed dominating him then imo you dont have anything.
In other words, you don't have any battle speed feats for Surfer. Your style of debating by twisting things isn't going to work here Quan.
Show the feats and examples. Non-travelling and in battle please.
Thanks.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I must have missed the part where you proved Superman has superior speed and the scans where Surfer has lost due to being too slow to react. When has the Silver Surfer been ko'd easily? I can name a few times for Superman but I cant seem to recall any for the Silver Surfer. Your whole argument seems to relying on the fact that the Surfer doesnt fight to the best of his ability and just shoots blasts.
No, you missed the point. If we go to there basics then Superman flies and punches and Surfer soars and blasts PC shots. If we get more elaborate, it can be done for both characters. Your argument seems to fare the same for Supes. He isn't fighting his best.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos and Superman arent peers in terms of strength and brawling ability by any means. Thanos is also miles ahead in terms of durability. Superman is an impressive top tier but Thanos is well beyond that.
Thanos and Superman are strength peers despite the fact that you hate the idea. Durability wise it's also debatable.
Speed isn't debatable. Supes is far faster than Thanos in H2H.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Drax was created to kill Thanos by Kronos. Big difference as it has nothing do with cosmic power failing there. He also cheapshotted him.
Energy is energy. If SS can't recreate an energy from his own universe, what makes you think he will know how to create energy from a completely different one. Kryptonite may be common knowledge, but it's composition isn't.
How would SS know how to create it? How do you know he can? Surfer may be versatile but he can't create all types of energy though he is a great manipulator of it.
Originally posted by AvlonThanos and Superman are strength peers despite the fact that you hate the idea. Durability wise it's also debatable.
Speed isn't debatable. Supes is far faster than Thanos in H2H.
Energy is energy. If SS can't recreate an energy from his own universe, what makes you think he will know how to create energy from a completely different one. Kryptonite may be common knowledge, but it's composition isn't.
How would SS know how to create it? How do you know he can? Surfer may be versatile but he can't create all types of energy though he is a great manipulator of it.
Strength wise agreed. Thanos and supes are peers. Durability wise no way. Thanos is a few notches above any top tier durability wise.
And actually, supes and thanos's weaknesses are different. Supes weakness has to do with kryptonians in general being weak naturally occurring forms of radiation. Reproducing this radiation would not be beyond surfers scope. Howver thanos's so called weakness is not the same as supes. It was specifically created by an above skyfather level being based on information about thanos bodily compostion. This being created this enrgy to have a specific effect on Thanos.
In other words while supermans weakness is a naturally occurring "defect" so to speak among kryptonians. Thanos's "weakness" in actuality is not a weakness at all but is a specific form of enrgy engineered by a higher level being that is able to negate thanos's durability. The same thing could have bin done to SS or evn thor. Therefore when we take into account that it was a very high level being that engineered this enrgy form specifically based on thanos composition then it certainly is beyond the silver surfers scope of power. SS exploiting thanos "weakness" would be equivalent to SS scanning someone like thor and engineering an enrgy form that would negate the his durability. SS is a great enrgy maniplator but he is not that good.
Originally posted by AvlonWhy would the Surfer make red solar energy on panel? Which enemy of his has a weakness that this would exploit? To me its like saying prove the ig has power over time in dc. If you have any evidence showing the limitations of the power cosmic by all means show it. Its the same song and dance as before. If I say he can create k'nite but I cant prove it because the k'nite doesnt exist in marvel universe unless someone from dc enters on over making it fair game. Red solar energy isnt exclusive to the dcu though.
It's not my job to prove that he can't, it's up to you to prove that he can with some type of on panel evidence. It's your claim, not mine.Unless they are fighting indoors, it wouldn't matter much anyway.
So now, those examples? We know Superman has some nice examples of fighting through red solar energy, now where are some of SS making that type of energy on panel?
In other words, you don't have any battle speed feats for Surfer. Your style of debating by twisting things isn't going to work here Quan.
Show the feats and examples. Non-travelling and in battle please.
Thanks.
No, you missed the point. If we go to there basics then Superman flies and punches and Surfer soars and blasts PC shots. If we get more elaborate, it can be done for both characters. Your argument seems to fare the same for Supes. He isn't fighting his best.
Thanos and Superman are strength peers despite the fact that you hate the idea. Durability wise it's also debatable.
Speed isn't debatable. Supes is far faster than Thanos in H2H.
Energy is energy. If SS can't recreate an energy from his own universe, what makes you think he will know how to create energy from a completely different one. Kryptonite may be common knowledge, but it's composition isn't.
How would SS know how to create it? How do you know he can? Surfer may be versatile but he can't create all types of energy though he is a great manipulator of it.
You are saying Superman and his superior speed will get the job done here. Prove it. Prove it by showing someone utilizing speed that the Surfer cannot counter.
Thanos and Superman imo arent peers in strength by any means. Thanos was physically hanging with and trading blows with power gem amped Thor who was a lot stronger than Superman at the time. Durability wise isnt debatable at all by any means imo. Kalibak,Konvikt,Zod,etc. are prime examples of characters getting the better of Superman that would be of no consequence whatsoever to Thanos imo.
🙂
Drax changed upon his last death and became the silver bullet. Kronos built made whatever him to be able to kill Thanos someday and his abilities changed into just that. Surfer upon scanning Superman would kno whis weaknesses instantly.
Superman beats Norrins head in. He's stronger, thouger, faster in combat and is the FAR better fighter.
Surfer CANNOT discover how to create Kryptonite energy and does not know about Sueprman's red sun vulnerability.
Superman has resisted transmutation from Elder Gods in JLA: Primeval.
He can escape extra-dimensional traps through Flash-like molecular vibration as shown in the Next miniseries.
He is strong enough to stalemate the Earth-2 Superman in a fight where his hits have so much force they shatter the local space/time barrier.
He withstood the Omega Effect--which is much more powerful than ANY attack Surfer has-- at point blank range and deflected it with heat vision. the Omega Effect was powerful enough to crack Herald Surfer's skin in the Galactus/Darkseid crossover.
Superman is NOT as durable as Thanos, at his best he may come somewhere near in in blunt force durabilility, but he is much mroe vulnerable to energy manipulating forms of attack.
Either way Superman tahes 6-7/10 from Surfer.
Originally posted by panthergodLong time no see. Where have you been by the way?
Superman beats Norrins head in. He's stronger, thouger, faster in combat and is the FAR better fighter.Surfer CANNOT discover how to create Kryptonite energy and does not know about Sueprman's red sun vulnerability.
Superman has resisted transmutation from Elder Gods in JLA: Primeval.
He can escape extra-dimensional traps through Flash-like molecular vibration as shown in the Next miniseries.
He is strong enough to stalemate the Earth-2 Superman in a fight where his hits have so much force they shatter the local space/time barrier.
He withstood the Omega Effect--which is much more powerful than ANY attack Surfer has-- at point blank range and deflected it with heat vision. the Omega Effect was powerful enough to crack Herald Surfer's skin in the Galactus/Darkseid crossover.
Superman is NOT as durable as Thanos, at his best he may come somewhere near in in blunt force durabilility, but he is much mroe vulnerable to energy manipulating forms of attack.
Either way Superman tahes 6-7/10 from Surfer.
One question here. I see that we disagree but I am fine with that. When has Superman withstood the omega effect?
Originally posted by Avlon
So now, those examples? We know Superman has some nice examples of fighting through red solar energy, now where are some of SS making that type of energy on panel?
http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssvsuni3df8.jpg
Surfer transform matter and energy to any form he so chooses..
So since Surfer already knows the configuration of red solar energies taken from the 1st scan above and his is the power to transform energy to anyform his encountered or sampled, then it should be taken into account that it is within his power to configure PC into forms of red solar radiation blast..
Supermans Current showing against red solar energies was pretty bad to a point where he was taken out with one shot.. So then lets meet in the middle, a doust of red solar energies would not allow Supes to operate at full capacity (FTL blitz/punch/durability/Strength) upon each successfull hit, an advantage toward Surfer..
Originally posted by Avlon
In other words, you don't have any battle speed feats for Surfer.Show the feats and examples. Non-travelling and in battle please.
Thanks.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/SilverSurfer_Rune-14.jpg
Theres more... Non likes Supes of course but shows he can hang in with him...
Its all for now..
Originally posted by darthgoober
He doesn't have to block every shot. If he blocks the first shot and then tags Supes with an eye blast or something Supes is going to have a hard time following that first punch up.As for "pivotal speed", take a look at the first scan. Surfer pivots his body to bring his right hand up to block the blast.
It takes skill and hella speed and reflexes to block a punch and counter with an eye blast before Supes can throw another. Remember Supes is capable of moving his arms FTL (as well as WW). Now taking my analogy that a baseball player can hit a 95mph baseball and not be able to block a 60mph punch implies that SS may be able to block a beam of energy from 10 meters away but not a slightly slower attack from close range (1/2 meter) due to lack of skill and or reflexes.
To clarify, Supes can most probably can make his fist travel within a 1/2 of a meter in far less time than a beam of energy can travel in 10 meters, assuming that Supes punches slightly slower than a beam of energy. Besides reflexes and speed, it takes skill to block a punch. If I don't know the correct technique then the punch will slip through and nail me. SS h2h skills are horrible. Supes 6/10.
Originally posted by AmbientNicely done. Red solar energy no problem for Surfer exactly like I thought and knew. I havent read that Nova vs. Surfer battle but he sure seems to be using considerable battle speed in that scan. 👆
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Homecoming47.jpg
Surfer absorbs and transfer Red Solar energy..http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssvsuni3df8.jpg
Surfer transform matter and energy to any form he so chooses..So since Surfer already knows the configuration of red solar energies taken from the 1st scan above and his is the power to transform energy to anyform his encountered or sampled, then it should be taken into account that it is within his power to configure PC into forms of red solar radiation blast..
Supermans Current showing against red solar energies was pretty bad to a point where he was taken out with one shot.. So then lets meet in the middle, a doust of red solar energies would not allow Supes to operate at full capacity (FTL blitz/punch/durability/Strength) upon each successfull hit, an advantage toward Surfer..
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0010ct3.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0011pd5.jpg
Nova though it was an energy beam and he was facing directly at Surfer directiion when this happened.. 2X...http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/SilverSurfer_Rune-14.jpg
Theres more... Non likes Supes of course but shows he can hang in with him...
Its all for now..
Originally posted by ultimatethor
Strength wise agreed. Thanos and supes are peers. Durability wise no way. Thanos is a few notches above any top tier durability wise.
I'll have to disagree on this one. Superman has some insane durability feats to him. Thanos does as well but he normally has some kind of prep or leaves battles earlier than Superman does.
They are both pretty high up on the scale though.
Originally posted by ultimatethor
And actually, supes and thanos's weaknesses are different. Supes weakness has to do with kryptonians in general being weak naturally occurring forms of radiation. Reproducing this radiation would not be beyond surfers scope. Howver thanos's so called weakness is not the same as supes. It was specifically created by an above skyfather level being based on information about thanos bodily compostion. This being created this enrgy to have a specific effect on Thanos.
Both are just using a specific type of radiation. Thanos just happened to not be known to anyone. I doubt he created a whole new form of radiation that can't be recreated. If SS can't create specific types of radiation from his own universe then how would he create one from a different one that he doesn't know the composition of in the 1st place?
After IC, Kryptonite from different universes don't typically affect kryptonians, making things even more difficult.
And even fake kryptonite is nowhere near as potent as the real thing.
Originally posted by ultimatethor
In other words while supermans weakness is a naturally occurring "defect" so to speak among kryptonians. Thanos's "weakness" in actuality is not a weakness at all but is a specific form of enrgy engineered by a higher level being that is able to negate thanos's durability. The same thing could have bin done to SS or evn thor. Therefore when we take into account that it was a very high level being that engineered this enrgy form specifically based on thanos composition then it certainly is beyond the silver surfers scope of power. SS exploiting thanos "weakness" would be equivalent to SS scanning someone like thor and engineering an enrgy form that would negate the his durability. SS is a great enrgy maniplator but he is not that good.
Outside of possibly knowing the name Kryptonite, SS would not know how to make an energy form that comes from an entirely different universe. Even then, there is no way to prove that he actually could do so.
Originally posted by h1a8
The first scan shows SS in the same angle before the blast as after. Look where the super skrull is in relation to before and after the blast.
What I mean by pivotal speed is the speed in which you pivot on your feet or board to cover 180 degrees without moving out of the point you are initially positioned on. The point your standing on is the axis.It takes skill and hella speed and reflexes to block a punch and counter with an eye blast before Supes can throw another. Remember Supes is capable of moving his arms FTL (as well as WW). Now taking my analogy that a baseball player can hit a 95mph baseball and not be able to block a 60mph punch implies that SS may be able to block a beam of energy from 10 meters away but not a slightly slower attack from close range (1/2 meter) due to lack of skill and or reflexes.
To clarify, Supes can most probably can make his fist travel within a 1/2 of a meter in far less time than a beam of energy can travel in 10 meters, assuming that Supes punches slightly slower than a beam of energy. Besides reflexes and speed, it takes skill to block a punch. If I don't know the correct technique then the punch will slip through and nail me. SS h2h skills are horrible. Supes 6/10.
As i have said in this thread, surfer is not going to need to continuously parry supes punches. A quick forcefield will take care of it. SS hand to hand skills are not actually horrible as darthgoober has shown evn though they are not as good as superman's. Ur analogy would have been useful if SS was confined to physically( with his hands etc) defending against supes attacks. While moving at multiple times FTL speeds, SS was able to note the exact position of evry single star he passed and use it to determine his exact position in the universe. I put it forth then that SS will definitely se supes attack and his only problem will be physically defending against it. This howver is not a problem at all as SS can instantly create a forcefield to protect himself. Heck evn IF( a big if) supes gets the first punch in he wont get in too many hits b4 SS forcfield goes up. Also id like too see some proof of supes punching an opponent at FTL speed or evn close to it. Also No comment yet on WW.( thats coming after this 😄 )
Originally posted by AvlonMentor is Thanos' biological father and together with the Abstract entity Kronos, they bestowed Drax with power that could kill Thanos. Suggesting that it was simply a variant frequency of normally occurring radiation is pure and utter speculation. Nobody knows what Mentor and Kronos did to make Drax emit that kind of power or what kind of power it actually was. The Power Cosmic is not merely a different form of naturally occurring radiation. The Darkforce is not merely a different form of naturally occurring radiation. Neither is the Power of the Guardians merely a different form of naturally occurring radiation. I'm pretty sure the same could be said of Captain Atom's Quantum field energies. What leads you to believe that Drax's power was normally occurring radiation?
Both are just using a specific type of radiation. Thanos just happened to not be known to anyone. I doubt he created a whole new form of radiation that can't be recreated. If SS can't create specific types of radiation from his own universe then how would he create one from a different one that he doesn't know the composition of in the 1st place?
Surfer never tried to make Drax's power. We don't even know what kind of power it was. And you're trying to use it as evidence that Surfer cannot manipulate or create red sunlight?
Originally posted by AvlonThanos has never lost to a top tier physically on panel while Superman has been beaten and knocked out. I see you still agree but show me a Thanos showing that Superman could replicate. Could Superman have taken multiple blasts from Odin? Could he have lasted as long as long as Thanos lasted against Tyrant? Could he have weathered the physical assault by power gem crazed Thor that Thanos took onlyto have bloodied his nose?
I'll have to disagree on this one. Superman has some insane durability feats to him. Thanos does as well but he normally has some kind of prep or leaves battles earlier than Superman does.They are both pretty high up on the scale though.
Both are just using a specific type of radiation. Thanos just happened to not be known to anyone. I doubt he created a whole new form of radiation that can't be recreated. If SS can't create specific types of radiation from his own universe then how would he create one from a different one that he doesn't know the composition of in the 1st place?
After IC, Kryptonite from different universes don't typically affect kryptonians, making things even more difficult.
And even fake kryptonite is nowhere near as potent as the real thing.
Outside of possibly knowing the name Kryptonite, SS would not know how to make an energy form that comes from an entirely different universe. Even then, there is no way to prove that he actually could do so.
Now looking at it from the other side. Thanos wouldnt have been knocked cold imo by Konvikt. Thanos wouldnt have been dazed by a lucky Kalibak punch imo. Thanos wouldnt have had his jaw broken by Zod either imo.
Feel free to post some evidence as to why you think Superman's durability is up there with Thanos' please.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0👆
Mentor is Thanos' biological father and together with the Abstract entity Kronos, they bestowed Drax with power that could kill Thanos. Suggesting that it was simply a variant frequency of normally occurring radiation is pure and utter speculation. Nobody knows what Mentor and Kronos did to make Drax emit that kind of power or what kind of power it actually was. The Power Cosmic is not merely a different form of naturally occurring radiation. The Darkforce is not merely a different form of naturally occurring radiation. Neither is the Power of the Guardians merely a different form of naturally occurring radiation. I'm pretty sure the same could be said of Captain Atom's Quantum field energies.Surfer never tried to make Drax's power. We don't even know what kind of power it was. And you're trying to use it as evidence that Surfer cannot manipulate or create red sunlight?
Originally posted by Avlon
I'll have to disagree on this one. Superman has some insane durability feats to him. Thanos does as well but he normally has some kind of prep or leaves battles earlier than Superman does.They are both pretty high up on the scale though.
Both are just using a specific type of radiation. Thanos just happened to not be known to anyone. I doubt he created a whole new form of radiation that can't be recreated. If SS can't create specific types of radiation from his own universe then how would he create one from a different one that he doesn't know the composition of in the 1st place?
After IC, Kryptonite from different universes don't typically affect kryptonians, making things even more difficult.
And even fake kryptonite is nowhere near as potent as the real thing.
Outside of possibly knowing the name Kryptonite, SS would not know how to make an energy form that comes from an entirely different universe. Even then, there is no way to prove that he actually could do so.
IMO thanos is far more durable than surfer or supes and he has the feats to prove it. But thats besides the point so ill just leave it at that.
To the next part, Creating a totally new form of radiation that works negatively against thanos is exactly what happened. It is certainly within Chronos's abilities and all the evidence points towards it. Also considering that it was specifically created by a being like Chronos it would obviously be above the capabilities of a top tier like SS to do. Further since supermans weakness is a naturally occurring "defect" in kryptonians it should not be difficult for SS to scan supermans physiology instantly or use his cosmic senses to ascertain the weakness and then use that same form of radiation on superman. But yes i do agree that this cannot be definitively proven as kryptonite is not in Marvel.
As the polls say here and on every other board.
Surfer takes this fight EVERYTIME. Surfer just has too many weapons and is too versatile for Superman.
Cosmic Amping+Self-sustenance+Matter Manipulation+Cosmic awareness. He could break down Superman's Kryptonian physiology in seconds and produce all kinds of weapons to shut him down.
If he chose, he would wind up weaponizing various forms of Kryptonites or lethal forms of solar energies to annihialate Superman simply by scanning his DNA and even his aura, and doing the math himself.
No contest.
