Superman vs Silver surfer · Comic Book 'Versus' Forum

Juntai Divine Vengeance

I don't believe entering the theta state, to continue the battle, and dragging Surfer there as well, is leaving the battlefield, because the battle is ongoing.

Endrict Nuul Senior Member

SS at his best would shit stomp Superman.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't believe entering the theta state, to continue the battle, and dragging Surfer there as well, is leaving the battlefield, because the battle is ongoing.

I'm not sure what the Theta State is so you could be right, but if he leaves the established neutral battlefield set by the thread starter for the Astral Plane or something like that I'm pretty sure it counts. Otherwise Surfer could just teleport with his opponent to an area near the Crunch or something like that...

Juntai Divine Vengeance

Obviously, if one side is expected to believe in this uber forum version of Surfer, who can do anything and everything on the fly in rapid succession while dodging at 100x the speed of light-- that he simply hasn't shown in the comics... then the other side should accept the uber Superman showings, were Kryptnite and Red Sun are next to useless, and force fields are a minor inconvenience at best, unless we're watching Super Friends.

The debate just keeps going in circles, because for these two particular characters, each low showing, or high showing or ability has a counter that the other has likely beaten before. Eventually you'll just have to accept your different views.

I hold these two in the highest of regards in this 'level' of characters and accept that either could win any given day, as I've said in pretty much every thread between the two, and every debate I've spent on them with Goober or anyone else.

Some of the guys Surfer regularly fights and has trouble with, are in a similar class with Superman. On the flip side, some of Superman's rogues gallery can match Surfer in the sheer versatility and power department. Neither one is going 'stomp' the other.

However personally, when it comes down to it, with the world/universe at stake, I believe Superman is both more naturally powerful and craftier[partly because he needs to be]. Although Surfer still has more ready options due to a naturally more dynamic powerset.

Tell me, if Superman were in Annihilation in place of Surfer, how do you think the story would have gone down?
From what I've seen...in major cosmic stories involving Surfer, he seems vastly outpowered by many of the others there.
However when Superman enters one of these stories, he is rarely one of the smaller playing pieces on the board, and then he starts to drop the mental blocks and show how powerful he actually is when he cuts loose.

Juntai Divine Vengeance

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm not sure what the Theta State is so you could be right, but if he leaves the established neutral battlefield set by the thread starter for the Astral Plane or something like that I'm pretty sure it counts. Otherwise Surfer could just teleport with his opponent to an area near the Crunch or something like that...

Avalon likely has all the scans about Torqasm Vo, Torqasm Rao and the Theta State, but it's a supercheap move. Probably why most people don't like it.

However, he's even shown mental disciplines as recently as after Infinite Crisis, where he projecting thoughts to people from space and creating mental duplicates of himself, etc. Like in the OMAC mini, not the Crisis tie in, but the one afterwards.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Juntai
Obviously, if one side is expected to believe in this uber forum version of Surfer, who can do anything and everything on the fly in rapid succession while dodging at 100x the speed of light-- that he simply hasn't shown in the comics... then the other side should accept the uber Superman showings, were Kryptnite and Red Sun are next to useless, and force fields are a minor inconvenience at best, unless we're watching Super Friends.

I don't get it Jun, how are people making out Surfer to be anymore uber than he is? I mean I know there are a couple of people saying that Surfer's on a whole different level but I believe they're in the minority. Surfer does most of the things subscribed to him here pretty regularly, flying/dodging at high speeds, blasting with energy, manipulating exotic forms of energy, showing off his superior powerset by using it in ways his opponents can't counter, these are things Surfer does in nearly every issue.

Starscream M Senior Member

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't get it Jun, how are people making out Surfer to be anymore uber than he is? I mean I know there are a couple of people saying that Surfer's on a whole different level but I believe they're in the minority. Surfer does most of the things subscribed to him here pretty regularly, flying/dodging at high speeds, blasting with energy, manipulating exotic forms of energy, exploiting his superior powerset by using it in ways his opponents can't counter, these are things Surfer does in nearly every issue.

has surfer ever been shown to blitz or defend against a blitz?

Juntai Divine Vengeance

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't get it Jun, how are people making out Surfer to be anymore uber than he is? I mean I know there are a couple of people saying that Surfer's on a whole different level but I believe they're in the minority. Surfer does most of the things subscribed to him here pretty regularly, flying/dodging at high speeds, blasting with energy, manipulating exotic forms of energy, exploiting his superior powerset by using it in ways his opponents can't counter, these are things Surfer does in nearly every issue.

And how often does Superman encounter kryptonite rays and red sun and overcome?
How often does he fight energy users similar to Surfer, or other characters equally as versatile in practice?

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Juntai
Avalon likely has all the scans about Torqasm Vo, Torqasm Rao and the Theta State, but it's a supercheap move. Probably why most people don't like it.
However, he's even shown mental disciplines as recently as after Infinite Crisis, where he projecting thoughts to people from space and creating mental duplicates of himself, etc. Like in the OMAC mini, not the Crisis tie in, but the one afterwards.

Well I'm sure those types of things would be fine since he stays on the battlefield to do it. But those are all the kind of thing Surfer deals with regularly so there's no guarantee's they'll work. Not that you said they definitely would or anything, I just thought I'd point that out.

Juntai Divine Vengeance

Originally posted by Starscream M
has surfer ever been shown to blitz or defend against a blitz?

He's likely defended as many bliztes as he's been on the recieving end of.

It's not in his character really to blitz, Surfer is a pacifist and would rather nuetralize than overwhelm.

Juntai Divine Vengeance

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well I'm sure those types of things would be fine since he stays on the battlefield to do it. But those are all the kind of thing Surfer deals with regularly so there's no guarantee's they'll work. Not that you said they definitely would or anything, I just thought I'd point that out.

I wasn't suggesting them as a tactic at all, but was replying to you and avy's discussion.

Starscream M Senior Member

Originally posted by Juntai
He's likely defended as many bliztes as he's been on the recieving end of.
It's not in his character really to blitz, Surfer is a pacifist and would rather nuetralize than overwhelm.

so how many times has Surfer been blitzed?

cuz Surfer always struck me as someone who could travel very fast, but couldn't maneuver or zigzag with the insane speeds that Superman does.

Juntai Divine Vengeance

Originally posted by Starscream M
so how many times has Surfer been blitzed?
cuz Surfer always struck me as someone who could travel very fast, but couldn't maneuver or zigzag with the insane speeds that Superman does.

Marvel comics doesn't tend to use the blitz in the manner that Superman often does/ is shown capable of.

However I can recall at least a Thor story, where he was walloping all over Surfer and Warlock, too fast and too fierce for them, with mostly all physical attacks.

However, Goober is definately the better person to ask this of, but as I've said, Superman is shown capable of example A. Surfer has shown capable of stopping example A, and attacks with example B and C, Superman fights through B and punches C clean out of existance. Lather rinse repeat. Which is why I'm not bothering to go tic for tat knowing anything either of these guys can or has thrown at the other, the other has beaten.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Juntai
And how often does Superman encounter kryptonite rays and red sun and overcome?

I'm not sure about standard K-nite anymore, but there's more than just "regular" k-nite for Surfer to use now(though I honestly wouldn't see the more exotic forms coming into play until pretty late in the fight). And from what I understand(though the claim may be exaggerated), Supes's last 3 or 4 showings against Red Sun Radiation have been pretty bad.

But don't get me wrong because I'm not saying that Surfer would one shot Supes with anything less than a gold K-nite blast, but a blast of K-nite or(and especially) Red Sun Radiation will take a greater toll on Supes than a punch from Supes will take on Surfer, and that gap is going to widen with every subsequent blast.

IMO Surfer's just a bad match up for Supes. It's not because Surfer's outright more powerful than Supes, it's just that he's tailor made to take him down.

Originally posted by Juntai
How often does he fight energy users similar to Surfer, or other characters equally as versatile in practice?

There aren't really a lot of characters who are that similar. There are some, but they're reletively few and far between. Most characters with his strength/speed/durability typically in versatility and vice versa. That's why Surfer's such a monster when PIS is removed from play, he's a high herald in pretty much every respect. Confrontations between Supes and guys like GL and Firestorm aren't a direct comparison because Surfer begins the fight with Supes level durability and speed and has a different mindset in battle(especially after Annihilation).

Avlon Godot Brew#107

Originally posted by Juntai
Obviously, if one side is expected to believe in this uber forum version of Surfer, who can do anything and everything on the fly in rapid succession while dodging at 100x the speed of light-- that he simply hasn't shown in the comics... then the other side should accept the uber Superman showings, were Kryptnite and Red Sun are next to useless, and force fields are a minor inconvenience at best, unless we're watching Super Friends.
The debate just keeps going in circles, because for these two particular characters, each low showing, or high showing or ability has a counter that the other has likely beaten before. Eventually you'll just have to accept your different views.
I hold these two in the highest of regards in this 'level' of characters and accept that either could win any given day, as I've said in pretty much every thread between the two, and every debate I've spent on them with Goober or anyone else.
Some of the guys Surfer regularly fights and has trouble with, are in a similar class with Superman. On the flip side, some of Superman's rogues gallery can match Surfer in the sheer versatility and power department. Neither one is going 'stomp' the other.
However personally, when it comes down to it, with the world/universe at stake, I believe Superman is both more naturally powerful and craftier[partly because he needs to be]. Although Surfer still has more ready options due to a naturally more dynamic powerset.
Tell me, if Superman were in Annihilation in place of Surfer, how do you think the story would have gone down?
From what I've seen...in major cosmic stories involving Surfer, he seems vastly outpowered by many of the others there.
However when Superman enters one of these stories, he is rarely one of the smaller playing pieces on the board, and then he starts to drop the mental blocks and show how powerful he actually is when he cuts loose.

Well said. I agree with this statement 100%.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Starscream M
has surfer ever been shown to blitz or defend against a blitz?

He recently did a half ass blitz on Nova and he frequently uses high speed dodging/bullrushing/blasting combo's but he doesn't fight with Supes's style of speed. That's not to say that he can't(it does seem to be a rather obvious extrapolation on his abilities) but we've never actually seen it.

And I know he defended against a blitz from Ganymede, but she's the only one who leaps to mind at present(though I'm all but positive there's been more).

Avlon Godot Brew#107

Originally posted by darthgoober
It’s no more ABC logic than the kind we use to decide who wins in a forum fight...
Thing’s been easily KO’d(K-nite’s been easily created) by people weaker than Superman(less proficient energy manipulators than Surfer) and Supes has easily KO’d people tougher than Thing(Surfer’s manipulated more complex energy than K-nite), thus Supes should easily KO the Thing(Surfer should easily be able to create K-nite).
In fact if we replaced the Thing’s name with Surfer’s, it would pretty much be the case you’re using to support the theory that Supes’s will be able to KO Surfer with punches.

No, you just completely justified ABC logic to yourself...
Energy manipulation is a lot more complicated than punching. Especially with the involvements of different universes and the rewritten rules of kryptonite for DC.

For instance, if it were that easy, Thanos is from his same universe and Drax carries a certain wavelength (suspiciously green too I might add) and Surfer is familiar with dealing with him. Why can't or hasn't he reproduced such a beam in battle?

Everyone is weak to something. Yet Surfer doesn't go around having knowledge of all weaknesses or has the opportunity/skill to recreate them all.

I

Originally posted by darthgoober
t's an uphill battle.
Yep…
“Leaving the field
Combatants who leave the field of combat on purpose forfeit the match. [b]If they are removed from the arena against their will (being punched, thrown, teleported, etc.) and can make it back under their own power in a reasonable amount of time, then they are still in the fight. Obviously, if a combatant leaves the field and cannot return under their own power, then they have lost.”

Notice the bold part. T-vo has many different uses. It's a cheap maneuver.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Avlon
No, you just completely justified ABC logic to yourself...
Energy manipulation is a lot more complicated than punching. Especially with the involvements of different universes and the rewritten rules of kryptonite for DC.

The fact that energy manipulation is more complicated doesn't change the fact the the basic logic is the same. I believe Soljer gave the best explanation for it...

Originally posted by Soljer
It isn't ABC logic. The ABC logic is a fallacy when we're looking at incomparable powers. Saying that Captain America can beat Superman because he can beat Batman, and Bruce can also beat Superman is ABC logic. Bruce beats superman due to kryptonite (and PIS, 😛).
ABC logic is saying that character A can beat character C because he can beat B who can beat C. It's a fallacy because it doesn't take into account the different abilities and stipulations that go into each victory.
I'm not saying that Batman can do it because Black Panther can do it. I'm saying that because Black Panther is too fast for Karnak, Batman also is.
It isn't ABC logic to say that the Flash is faster than Mongul because Superman is, and the Flash is faster than Superman.
Do you see the distinction I'm making? ABC logic in FIGHTS doesn't take into account possible strengths/weaknesses that are TAILORED to each combatant. ABC logic in...statistics (for lack of a better word - I'm a little brain dead right now - don't ask) is perfectly acceptable. Character A can lift more than B, who can lift more than C, is it not appropriate to say A can lift more than C?

Originally posted by Avlon
For instance, if it were that easy, Thanos is from his same universe and Drax carries a certain wavelength (suspiciously green too I might add) and Surfer is familiar with dealing with him. Why can't or hasn't he reproduced such a beam in battle?

Unlike K-nite, WHATEVER was used against Thanos has never been recreated by anyone else. You're ASSUMING that it's part of the electromagnetic spectrum but there was no such indication given at any point.

Originally posted by Avlon
Everyone is weak to something. Yet Surfer doesn't go around having knowledge of all weaknesses or has the opportunity/skill to recreate them all.

Proof that EVERYONE in comics has a easily exploitable weakness like Supes does? I can name all kinds of characters who don't have a specific vulnerability to two different types of radiation that exist within the electromagnetic spectrum...

Originally posted by Avlon
Notice the bold part. T-vo has many different uses. It's a cheap maneuver.

Yes but Surfer's loss would only lose if he couldn't return from the Astral Plane after enough time, and by then Supes would have already forfeited.

Starscream M Senior Member

Originally posted by darthgoober

Unlike K-nite, WHATEVER was used against Thanos has never been recreated by anyone else. You're ASSUMING that it's part of the electromagnetic spectrum but there was no such indication given at any point.

isn't everythng within the electromagnetic spectrum? (meaning thanos weakness has to be included within the ES)

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Starscream M
isn't everythng within the electromagnetic spectrum? (meaning thanos weakness has to be included within the ES)

Most forms of energy are, but many of the exotic forms(like magic) aren't unless I'm mistaken. You gotta remember that it was a special ability given to him by Kronos, we can't just assume that anyone could create it otherwise he just would have told Surfer or Mar-Vell how to do it a long time ago. If the effect is ever recreated than I'll have no problems crediting an energy manipulator of sufficient skill with the ability to do so, but that's quite a leap when we're talking about a gift from a cosmic entity.