Superman vs Silver surfer

Originally posted by batdude123
Surfer 5.5-6/10.

What do you think of my idea about Surfer creating a red sun right on top of the two of them anyway?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I say 7.5-8/10 is a bit closer to the mark.

Surfer has the versatility advantage... no doubt about it. However, their power output is about the same, and Superman has some advantages of his own. Superman's creativity with being able to use a lot of his powers in conjunction with one another is the reason he's able to fight and defeat your "Silver Surfers" or your "Eradicators" or your "Hank Henshaws" or your "Thors."

It definitely wouldn't be that easy for SS contrary to popular belief here. Sure... if you looked SQUARELY at their power sets, and ignored feats, Norrin would probably beat on Kal 8/10. However, Superman's formidability and creativity, along with other things he brings to the table make it a closer match.

Hence, the reason why I give it to Surfer 5.5-6/10. 😬

Originally posted by darthgoober
What do you think of my idea about Surfer creating a red sun right on top of the two of them anyway?

Then Superman rubs his hands together tearing the fabric of space and time making it go *POOF!!* haermm

Seriously though, most of the things Surfer COULD do to Superman is negated by the fact that Superman has better combat speed and better reflexes. 😬

And of course... you know... there's always T-Vo. 😖hifty:

Originally posted by batdude123
Surfer has the versatility advantage... no doubt about it. However, their power output is about the same, and Superman has some advantages of his own. Superman's creativity with being able to use a lot of his powers in conjunction with one another is the reason he's able to fight and defeat your "Silver Surfers" or your "Eradicators" or your "Hank Henshaws" or your "Thors."

It definitely wouldn't be that easy for SS contrary to popular belief here. Sure... if you looked SQUARELY at their power sets, and ignored feats, Norrin would probably beat on Kal 8/10. However, Superman's formidability and creativity, along with other things he brings to the table make it a closer match.

Hence, the reason why I give it to Surfer 5.5-6/10. 😬

Originally posted by batdude123
Then Superman rubs his hands together tearing the fabric of space and time making it go *POOF!!* haermm

Seriously though, most of the things Surfer COULD do to Superman is negated by the fact that Superman has better combat speed and better reflexes. 😬

And of course... you know... there's always T-Vo. 😖hifty:

lol

Originally posted by xmeat
lol

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I'm not of the opinion that it would be EASY for Surfer, even though I give him a fairly significant majority. I see any victory Surfer gets as being hard fought(and vice versa), I just see him being able to pull off a victory more often(especially since some of his Annihilation showings).

The only thing I disagree with you on is the amount out of 10 Surfer wins. It wouldn't be 80% of the times, but more like 60% of the times. Surfer still gets the nod though, IMO.

PS: Most of his Annihilation feats have been stuff he's already done before.

Judging by his showings in Annihilation, a formal "power upgrade" has been dubious to say the least.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But wouldn't being placed smack dab in the middle of a red sun immediately start draining Supes powers to the point that he'd likely be unable to pull of the hand rubbing feat? I'm not talking about him being COMPLETELY powerless right off, but it certainly seems likely that the drain to his powers would be significant enough that he would be unable to pull off a high ended feat like your talking about.

It's negated because Superman's combat speed and reflexes are better than Norrin's. Clark would be on him like a fly on cow shit from the very beginning of the fight. I don't know if there'd be enough down time for him to do what you're suggesting. Besides, even if he could create a red sun (although, I really doubt it because he's never shown transmutation on this level before), it's not like he could do it with a simple "flick of the wrist" so to speak.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that they were under the influence of a red sun...

Superman has shown to be able to fight off entire armies of demons ON a red sun, and has also moved a planet under a red sun.

PS: Superman's vibrated so fast as to counteract the effects of an "omniversal (yes, OMNIversal) blast" before. Getting himself out of a red sun and finishing this job wouldn't exactly be out the question IMO. 🙂

And again... there's always T-Vo. 😄

Originally posted by batdude123
It's negated because Superman's combat speed and reflexes are better than Norrin's. Clark would be on him like a fly on cow shit from the very beginning of the fight. I don't know if there'd be enough down time for him to do what you're suggesting. Besides, even if he could create a red sun (although, I really doubt it because he's never shown transmutation on this level before), it's not like he could do it with a simple "flick of the wrist" so to speak.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that they were under the influence of a red sun...

Superman has shown to be able to fight off entire armies of demons [B]ON a red sun, and has also moved a planet under a red sun.

PS: Superman's vibrated so fast as to counteract the effects of an "omniversal (yes, OMNIversal) blast" before. Getting himself out of a red sun and finishing this job wouldn't exactly be out the question IMO. 🙂

And again... there's always T-Vo. 😄 [/B]

And Surfer showed transmutation on that level when he created a black hole. What's more, unless I'm mistaken the creation of that black hole happened pretty quick, I'm not saying that it was a "flick of the wrist" type thing(I honestly don't remember off hand) but it's not as if it was shown to take a significant amount of time by any stretch of the imagination(though again, it's been a while since I read that issue, so I may be mistaken).

As for Supes resistance to red sun(and K-nite for that matter), it fluctuates to say the least. One issue it's REALLY low, then it's really high, and then it's really low again depending on the story. Taken on average, it's pretty effective against him even if it's not an instant win type ordeal, so it's not really right to just assume that his highest showings against it are the accurate ones, otherwise we have to go with Surfer's highest showings against physical damage, in which case Supes is completely f*cked.

And with T-Vo, you have to take into consideration Norrin's track record against reality manipulators, which is pretty damn good over all. So it's not as if that's an instant win for Supes either(assuming he can pull it off).

Originally posted by darthgoober
Don't get to smug, either of them would beat the shit out of the Hulk.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait now, I'll give you that Supes uses more combat speed in some of his fights, but I've seen nothing to suggest better reflexes. Surfer has nano second reflexes at the very least, so he should be able to respond to Supes just fine. How fast DOES Supes blitz anyway? I mean, who's the fastest person he's been shown to be able to pull off an actual blitz against before?

Surfer's reflexes are majorly overblown to say the least. If you want to talk "averages," then Norrin definitely doesn't have "nano second" reflexes.

And if this is what you're referring to:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=3657953

Then, that is MAJORLY ambiguous to say the least. 😬 That doesn't prove that his reflexes are nano second level.

Surfer has had trouble with speed before, and his reflexes are not infallible like most people think.

I like to use the "Lobo" analogy. Lobo can zip around on his "hog" (just like Norrin and his surf board) all across the galaxy at tremendous speeds, but take him off his hog and what do you get? Travelling at hyperspeed does not attest to his reflexes, or his combat speed.

Sure, Norrin has fought fast in comics... but these are few and far inbetween. 😬

Originally posted by darthgoober
And Surfer showed transmutation on that level when he created a black hole. What's more, unless I'm mistaken the creation of that black hole happened pretty quick, I'm not saying that it was a "flick of the wrist" type thing(I honestly don't remember off hand) but it's not as if it was shown to take a significant amount of time by any stretch of the imagination(though again, it's been a while since I read that issue, so I may be mistaken).

Apparently comic writers view creating a blackhole to be easier than creating an entire sun. Nova has created one (the herald), and hell even Magneto has created one to a certain degree.

Do I put these two on the level of creating an entire star? No... I don't. Not by a long shot.

And if he could, Surfer also wouldn't have the time to do this because he'd be getting ambushed.

Originally posted by darthgoober
As for Supes resistance to red sun(and K-nite for that matter), it fluctuates to say the least. One issue it's REALLY low, then it's really high, and then it's really low again depending on the story. Taken on average, it's pretty effective against him even if it's not an instant win type ordeal, so it's not really right to just assume that his highest showings against it are the accurate ones, otherwise we have to go with Surfer's highest showings against physical damage, in which case Supes is completely f*cked.

Name a recent comic that shows him being weak to red sun radiation because I'm honestly having a hard time coming up with one.

Nowadays, Superman resisting red sun radiation IS an average feat.

-Eclipso fought Superman while pumping out red sun radiation and kryptonite radiation at the same time... Supes still won

-He's battled armies while on a red sun

-He moved a planet under a red sun

-After being exposed to a heavy dosage of it, he reamped himself in a second and smacked away Ruin casually.

-Survived being thrown into a red sun twice in succession

-Beat SBP after flying him through Rao and landing knee deep in k-nite

-Under a red sun, he summoned enough energy with his heat vision to power up a machine with a mass 16x greater than Earth's

-Zod and Superman's blows were breaking a planet apart... under a red sun as well.

And the feats just go on and on and on. 😬 It's not the instant win most here think it is.

And I also wouldn't put it past him to seal it in a space/time rift, or vibrate to the specific frequency in order to push it away. He's done similar stuff before.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And with T-Vo, you have to take into consideration Norrin's track record against reality manipulators, which is pretty damn good over all. So it's not as if that's an instant win for Supes either(assuming he can pull it off).

I'm not saying it would be an instant win for Superman, but it could be used to get a few wins. If he can do it against Erads (who is basically everything Surfer is), and a magical skyfather in Blaze, then I think he could affect SS with it. I'm not even gonna bring up the Dominus fight, because you and I both know that it was shit. 🙂

My opinion still stands that Norrin wins 5.5-6/10. Seems we have to agree to disagree. 🙂

Originally posted by batdude123
Surfer's reflexes are [B]majorly overblown to say the least. If you want to talk "averages," then Norrin definitely doesn't have "nano second" reflexes.

And if this is what you're referring to:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=3657953

Then, that is MAJORLY ambiguous to say the least. 😬 That doesn't prove that his reflexes are nano second level.

Surfer has had trouble with speed before, and his reflexes are not infallible like most people think.

I like to use the "Lobo" analogy. Lobo can zip around on his "hog" (just like Norrin and his surf board) all across the galaxy at tremendous speeds, but take him off his hog and what do you get? Travelling at hyperspeed does not attest to his reflexes, or his combat speed.

Sure, Norrin has fought fast in comics... but these are few and far inbetween. 😬[/B]

Hey if we go COMPLETELY by averages, then Supes speed and reflexes aren't all they're cracked up to be either. Supes biggest showings of speed are pretty much all traveling speed, and Surfer's trumps him in that category. The only person I can think of that Surfer's had difficulty with just because of speed was the Runner(though I may be over looking someone I'll admit), and that's not really an indication of speed being a problem for him.

And you never answered who's the fastest being Supes has blitzed before.

Originally posted by batdude123
Apparently comic writers view creating a blackhole to be easier than creating an entire sun. Nova has created one (the herald), and hell even Magneto has created one to a certain degree.

Do I put these two on the level of creating an entire star? No... I don't. Not by a long shot.

And if he could, Surfer also wouldn't have the time to do this because he'd be getting ambushed.

Originally posted by batdude123
Name a recent comic that shows him being weak to red sun radiation because I'm honestly having a hard time coming up with one.

Nowadays, Superman resisting red sun radiation IS an average feat.

-Eclipso fought Superman while pumping out red sun radiation and kryptonite radiation at the same time... Supes still won

-He's battled armies while on a red sun

-He moved a planet under a red sun

-After being exposed to a heavy dosage of it, he reamped himself in a second and smacked away Ruin casually.

-Survived being thrown into a red sun twice in succession

-Beat SBP after flying him through Rao and landing knee deep in k-nite

-Under a red sun, he summoned enough energy with his heat vision to power up a machine with a mass 16x greater than Earth's

-Zod and Superman's blows were breaking a planet apart... under a red sun as well.

And the feats just go on and on and on. 😬 It's not the instant win most here think it is.

And I also wouldn't put it past him to seal it in a space/time rift, or vibrate to the specific frequency in order to push it away. He's done similar stuff before.

Originally posted by batdude123
I'm not saying it would be an instant win for Superman, but it could be used to get a few wins. If he can do it against Erads (who is basically everything Surfer is), and a magical skyfather in Blaze, then I think he could affect SS with it. I'm not even gonna bring up the Dominus fight, because you and I both know that it was shit. 🙂

My opinion still stands that Norrin wins 5.5-6/10. Seems we have to agree to disagree. 🙂

You rarely, if ever, see Superman go faster than sound on earth. Most of his blitzes are under the sound barrier, hence why there's no big "boom" .

If there isn't anything implying a sonic boom, then I won't believe SM is going above the speed of sound.

Writers hardly focus on stuff like that when dealing with super-speed. It's kind of like how you can have two characters racing each other at FTL speeds and they can still have a conversation with each other despite going much, much faster than sound.

The race between Flash and Superman is a good example of that. They were estimated to be running at about 2000 mph or something like that and they were able to talk to each other as if they were simply jogging along.

Originally posted by SarKastic_OJ
Before you close this Paola let me throw in a quick jab...

Did any of you see the comic where Gladiator(Superman's clone and equal) went blow for blow with Surfer and no side gained the upper hand?

The Comic went like this(to a tee):
Gladiator and the Shiar forces were journeying through space, suddenly they came across a giant living planet(Ego), Gladiator along with the Shiar forces proceeding in attempting to "dismantle' the living planet as they deemed him "a threat" to space.Surfer comes out of nowhere and battles Gladiator in a blow for blow "even" battle, Surfer's plea is that Ego is a "living being" and deserves to live thus they fight it out in a blow for blow EVEN battle, no circumstances, no holding back, both fought for the win.Surfer is about to give the battle up as Glad is beginning to gain the upper hand.Ego "realizing" that Surfer was on his side donated some of his power to Surfer in attempts of ridden himself of Gladiator(his threat)..Surfer "still" didn't topple Gladiator, the fight ended in a stalemate as Glad decided that Surfer's way of piece was the "right" way..

Surfer used no power draining whatsoeva, it's assumed that it wouldn't work because or else he would have saved himself alot of trouble against Gladiator..

Edit: That was a blast from the past and completely pointless in the current debate. Ignore.

Originally posted by long pig
You rarely, if ever, see Superman go faster than sound on earth. Most of his blitzes are under the sound barrier, hence why there's no big "boom" .

If there isn't anything implying a sonic boom, then I won't believe SM is going above the speed of sound.

In his fight with some kind of asian gods or heroes of some sort, he and the guy were fighting so fast that they were creating sonic booms constantly, yet the guy kept up and was hammering superman at every blitz attempt.

It showed some nice ma feats for Superman and was a great speedfeat.

But the whole lightspeed blitz thing that many say Superman can do, has never been done on paper.

On average, i'd say his blitzes are around or a shade below the sound barrier, or mach 1.

Well if he actually blitzes at about the speed of sound, then I think it's safe to say that Surfer should be able to handle his speed without to much difficulty.

Originally posted by UniOmni
In his fight with some kind of asian gods or heroes of some sort, he and the guy were fighting so fast that they were creating sonic booms constantly, yet the guy kept up and was hammering superman at every blitz attempt.

It showed some nice ma feats for Superman and was a great speedfeat.

But the whole lightspeed blitz thing that many say Superman can do, has never been done on paper.

On average, i'd say his blitzes are around or a shade below the sound barrier, or mach 1.

Supes fight people like CM, WW, BA, and plenty more, that are all way faster than mach 1. BA was even fast enough to fight with Barry at superspeeds; there's noway in hell any of them are that slow. Especailly when Supes and Doomsday were fighting mach speeds years ago. All of them have improved greatly in speed over the years.

And do you remeber what superman issue where he fought that asian god?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well if he actually blitzes at about the speed of sound, then I think it's safe to say that Surfer should be able to handle his speed without to much difficulty.

If the battle leaves the atmosphere they'll both be going much faster.

Heros usually don't go Mach500 while on a planet for fear of doing damage.

The fastest I have ever read Superman going on Earth is over 2000 miles per second.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If the battle leaves the atmosphere they'll both be going much faster.

Heros usually don't go Mach500 while on a planet for fear of doing damage.

true...

imo (yes its late, but what the hell), in a slugfest, superman has enough to take surfer as much as surfer does to take him, maybe even more...

surfer's energy powers give him a huge advantage though... if he fights intelligently, he takes the vast majority imo...

lol mach 1, what is the world coming to.