Darth Sion vs Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Dude... the burden of proof is [b]not on me. I'm simply pointing out holes in the "Sidious mindwiped millions" theory that people have going on here. The fact is, cloaking devices are not exactly that rare when it comes to ships in the SWU, and the Lusyanka could have easily been cloaked.

As for the air traffic, while there may be a lot in the city areas of Coruscant, there really wouldn't be any in an isolated mountain region. Also, we don't know how large this region was, and how isolated it may have been, meaning that the sound may not even register to the city region. Fact is, nothing indicates that the Lusyanka couldn't have landed in a distant and isolated Mountain area where any kind of noise or shadow wouldn't have been recognised by any of Coruscant's inhabitants. Nothing indicates that the Lusyanka couldn't have been cloaked, preventing anyone from seeing it as it descended into the Planet's atmosphere. Nothing indicates that Palpatine had to do anything more than what is stated: mindwiping the engineers that buried the ship. I appreciate the thought into the theory, I really do, but that's all it is: a theory.

Nothing in canon indicates that Sidious would have had to mindwipe millions... [/B]

You do realize that there was a grand total of 2 twin mountain peaks.And even if the were multiple mountains there is nothing to suggest they rivaled the Lusyanka in size.

Let's say that the Empire State Building is the Lusyanka and the buildings surrounding it were the mountains. A ship that size would have descend at a slow rate to get under ground would it not? A seen by smaller ships they don't exactly land as easy as 1,2,3. Now the empire state building(which I now use ESL. L is for Lusyanka) is visible for miles and miles away from the hills in upstate new york and from across the Hudson river in both north and central new jersey. The hills of in upstate NY and NJ could be seen as skyscrapers on corscant and they clear have a view of the ESL. Now even if the Lusyanka was smaller than the mountains there would be a periods in descent that the ship would stick out from the skyline much like the ESL sticks out from the NYC skyline (and the skyscrapers surrounding it) Aswell as being visible from being visible at sea level from NJ and NY.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Manarai_Mountains

Hear they have a pretty good description of what is surrounding the mountains. Not to mention it clearly says that the there were restaurants and the "monument plaza." And by reading the mountains it is pretty clear that is is close such places as the imperial palace. The odds the no one would such an event is impossible. I there was never no mention to a cloaking device so there would have to be a mention of one on the Lusyanka for me to believe and if the ship had one it would certainly be useful while it escaped corscant and the surrounding space above the planet when the republic attacked.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Nihilus - mere presence kills and bends beings to his will, can cause destruction on a planetwide scale quickly and with little effort, and has a cosmic level awareness. Has also displayed incredible ability with using multiple abilities at once.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Sion - pure speed, damage resistance, and cheating death.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Exar - so strong in the darkside that the ground trembled when he walked, was able to freeze thousands, and drain thousands, both effortlessly.

Funny you try to refute the "sidious mind fu(king the inhabitants of coruscant" when it's clear he mind raped them, yet to try to insist he mind raped the engineers who piloted the ship, oh i forgot for a mere venator star destroyer to be piloted, it takes a crew of a thousands, source : SWI

Now for a 19 000m warship, It certeinly woudld take tens and thousands to merely operate the ship so it coudl fly, And prove that a ship that size could be cloaked, why the hell should it even be cloaked when radar can still detect something of that size?

So yes, palaptine mind raping the inhabitants of coruscant is very likely

Exar - so strong in the darkside that the ground trembled when he walked, was able to freeze thousands, and drain thousands, both effortlessly.

1.) Substantiate the ground quaking and prove it would be above Sidious.

2.) Hell, Sidious was able to hold the entire Imperial Navy in his thrall during his tenure as Emperor.

3.) Palpatine draining billions on Byss > Exar's thousands. By far.

Originally posted by Gideon
Prove all of it.

The scene is non-canon. Prove it.

LMAO. You try to counter this by nitpicking at the least impressive thing I mentioned. Truly wonderful.

Now don't be silly. The scene was taken out of continuity due to time restraints. What we see would therefor fit the Game Developer's vision, and best support explanations of his power mentioned during the game.

Given the evidence on hand, Nihilus is more powerful than Sidious.

1.) Darth Sidious has demonstrated greater speed. You've yet to prove Sion can move faster than the eye can see.

Given that TPM Kenobi can, I really don't see what the big deal is. Also, you've yet to prove Sidious can move fast enough to slice off Kreia's hand. [Gideon]Prove it all.[/Gideon]

2.) Sidious's Dun Moch and manipulation skills (especially since he's completely aware about the events of Malachor V) are sufficient to eliminate this.

No, they're not, as explained earlier on in the thread. Respond to that first, and then go bring this point up again.

3.) Sidious's Dun Moch and manipulation skills (especially since he's completely aware about the events of Malachor V) are sufficient to eliminate this.

No, they're not, as explained earlier on in the thread. Respond to that first, and then go bring this point up again.

1.) The potency of Palpatine's spirit required the "Force and all the Jedi before us" to hold it in the netherworld.

What is this bullshit? There's no proof that such was required. All we know is that those lengths were taken, to make sure that Palpatine's spirit wasn't free to roam the cosmos.

2.) Palpatine can hurl three automobile sized Senate pods around like wiffle balls, without any trouble.

In a setting where Force users can manipulate Black Holes and nudge moons, I fail to see how this is impressive.

3.) Kudos for Nadd being a Ghostly First Aid Kit.

Cute.

1.) Prove that they could all do it.

Excuse me? I didn't assert that all are more powerful than Palpatine, ergo I don't have to. Now, given that the likes of Ragnos, Simus, Sadow, and Kressh were the most renowned of the Ancients for their power in the Golden Age, which the mentioned Ancient Sith Witch was a part of, they, along with her, would all be more powerful than Palpatine.

2.) Palpatine demonstrated a refined control for the siphoning of energy on a galactic scale,

Elaborate.

and Force Storms possess the power to "rip surfaces off of worlds".

And Force Storms are useless in one-on-one scenarios, and speak nothing for personal power. Proves nothing for Sidious' power.

1.) Prove that Bane was the "Sith Chosen One". 😉

The Sith Chosen One aka The Sith'ari was stated to lead the Sith (which Bane essentially did with his knowledge of ritual Lore from Lehon, where he would literally order Kaan around and manipulated the hell out of him, went behind everyone's backs and would assign orders to the Sith Military), destroy them (which Bane essentially did with providing Kaan with knowledge of the thought bomb and manipulating him into using it), and make them stronger (which Bane essentially did with his Ro2).

Bane is the only one shown to apply on all counts.

Descriptions of the Sith'ari include "perfect power," "perfect being," (which, given Darth "with power far greater than that of the entire BoD" Bane's power, would further support him being the Sith'ari) and someone who would break away from what he knew and build things according to his design (which is what he did with the Ro2).

There's also the fact that PoD is all but screaming at you that he is in fact the Sith'ari. It's one of the major themes in the book, and Kopekz already thought that Bane might be that person after just having met him. The Darth Bane series of books are quite clearly telling the story of the Sith'ari, and it's obvious that that person would be Bane.

2.) The Dark Side Sourcebook says that Darth Sidious was the most powerful of Bane's Order. Which includes Bane.

Yet, like all of your other quotes, it is inconclusive. The statement speaks as much for political power as it does for personal.

3.) The Essential Guide to the Force says that he is the "grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings".

This translates to personal power... how? All that quote proves is that Sidious was able to learn from a millennium of Sith teachings and philosophy, and was a product of all of it.

4.) Sidious was the "unbalance" in the Force that required elimination at the hands of the true Chosen One, Anakin Skywalker.

Again, what is this bullshit? The unbalance had been there before Sidious was born, for thousands of years, ever since the prophecy of the Chosen One had been made.

Cue the RotS novelization quotes regarding his status as a "black hole of the Force".

Good luck. 🙂

Already addressed. Reply to that before you bring this up again.

Originally posted by Gideon
1.) Substantiate the ground quaking and prove it would be above Sidious.

Given the amount of energy that was directed purely as a product of his raw power with the darkside, it heavily suggests his power would be greater than Sidious'.

2.) Hell, Sidious was able to hold the entire Imperial Navy in his thrall during his tenure as Emperor.

Eh? Do you mean he actually physically held it with the force?

3.) Palpatine draining billions on Byss > Exar's thousands. By far.

WTF?

There were billions of inhabitants on Byss, yes, but it's not like he drained them all at once. He would drain an unknown amount of energy from the planet and inhabitants every now and then to sustain his old age. We don't know how many inhabitants he would drain at any given time, meaning this proves nothing.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
And Force Storms are useless in one-on-one scenarios, and speak nothing for personal power. Proves nothing for Sidious' power.

How does a force storm not mean someone is powerful in the force? H transported Luke from Coruscant to a dungeon ship while he himself was on Byss. The force storm is a wormhole that can destroy fleets of ships and transport people great distances in an instant bending the fabric time and space itself if that does not equal perosnal power in the force than nothing does. Even if it can't be used in a 1 vs 1. situation. Sidious is a single person is defeating muiltiple capital ships of the republic by himself.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
LMAO. You try to counter this by nitpicking at the least impressive thing I mentioned. Truly wonderful.

This is incorrect. To quote Yoda, "there is no try". I've merely used a relatively cheap and absurd defense to compromise your argument, as you've tried to do with mine. The only difference is that I've got more to work with than you; you wanted to play this game, so we'll play it your way.

Now don't be silly. The scene was taken out of continuity due to time restraints. What we see would therefor fit the Game Developer's vision, and best support explanations of his power mentioned during the game.

"Don't be silly" isn't a defense. What's "silly" is you constantly using the absence of proof clause or the ambiguity card to try to make a point when you know you have no proof to support your claims. That is silly. Me? I'm going with canon policy. The cutscene is N-canon. It's a non-issue. It's gone. 😉

Given the evidence on hand, Nihilus is more powerful than Sidious.

I'm sorry, but you've yet to list a set of feats where Nihilus compares with Sidious.

Given that TPM Kenobi can, I really don't see what the big deal is. Also, you've yet to prove Sidious can move fast enough to slice off Kreia's hand. [Gideon]Prove it all.[/Gideon]

a.) I don't have to prove that Sidious can move fast enough to slice of Kreia's hand.

b.) You made the claim that Sion has speed comparable or in excess of Sidious's. You've yet to prove it.

c.) You're the one who kept saying "prove it!". Again, I'm simply using your own methods to compromise your argument.

No, they're not, as explained earlier on in the thread. Respond to that first, and then go bring this point up again.

Yes, they are. You've yet to prove that they can't, whereas I've used logic to reasonably conclude that he is capable of doing so. If he can dick around with the entire galaxy for twenty years, he can logically dick around with Sion, as he's aware of the events that occured on Malachor V.

No, they're not, as explained earlier on in the thread. Respond to that first, and then go bring this point up again.

Yes, they are. You've yet to prove that they can't, whereas I've used logic to reasonably conclude that he is capable of doing so. If he can dick around with the entire galaxy for twenty years, he can logically dick around with Sion, as he's aware of the events that occured on Malachor V.

What is this bullshit? There's no proof that such was required. All we know is that those lengths were taken, to make sure that Palpatine's spirit wasn't free to roam the cosmos.

"Palpatine will never return. The Force and the Jedi before us will see to that." It's plainly obvious. Hell, since the Jedi are legendary for taking measures that will get the job done only -- they've never been one for overkill -- logic concludes this was required.

In a setting where Force users can manipulate Black Holes and nudge moons, I fail to see how this is impressive.

Yet none of the people you've claimed can do either. Prove that they can. 😉

Cute.

Yes, it's cute, funny, and directly applies. Nadd's mending of Kun is irrelevant.

Excuse me? I didn't assert that all are more powerful than Palpatine, ergo I don't have to. Now, given that the likes of Ragnos, Simus, Sadow, and Kressh were the most renowned of the Ancients for their power in the Golden Age, which the mentioned Ancient Sith Witch was a part of, they, along with her, would all be more powerful than Palpatine.

Prove it. 😉

Elaborate.

Read Sithisis. He fed off of the anxiety of the Jedi and the carnage all across the galaxy.

And Force Storms are useless in one-on-one scenarios, and speak nothing for personal power. Proves nothing for Sidious' power.

Yet no other Force user has demonstrated an attack that rivals it. So, actually, in your attempts to undermine it, all you've proven is that Sidious's most powerful attack -- the most powerful Force maneuver there is -- is not even reaching the pinnacle of his prowess. Thanks. 🙂

The Sith Chosen One aka The Sith'ari was stated to lead the Sith (which Bane essentially did with his knowledge of ritual Lore from Lehon, where he would literally order Kaan around and manipulated the hell out of him, went behind everyone's backs and would assign orders to the Sith Military), destroy them (which Bane essentially did with providing Kaan with knowledge of the thought bomb and manipulating him into using it), and make them stronger (which Bane essentially did with his Ro2).

Bane is the only one shown to apply on all counts.

Descriptions of the Sith'ari include "perfect power," "perfect being," (which, given Darth "with power far greater than that of the entire BoD" Bane's power, would further support him being the Sith'ari) and someone who would break away from what he knew and build things according to his design (which is what he did with the Ro2).

There's also the fact that PoD is all but screaming at you that he is in fact the Sith'ari. It's one of the major themes in the book, and Kopekz already thought that Bane might be that person after just having met him. The Darth Bane series of books are quite clearly telling the story of the Sith'ari, and it's obvious that that person would be Bane.

Rofl. Three paragraphs and one sentence of pure speculation. Nothing concrete. Ergo, it's still up for debate. You've proven nothing. This is is now irrelevant. Oh, and since Bane didn't conquer the Jedi or the Republic (like Sidious did) and accomplish the goals of the Sith (like Sidious did), guess he really doesn't qualify for "perfect" does he?

Yet, like all of your other quotes, it is inconclusive. The statement speaks as much for political power as it does for personal.

Prove it. The context clearly identifies personal prowess.

This translates to personal power... how? All that quote proves is that Sidious was able to learn from a millennium of Sith teachings and philosophy, and was a product of all of it.

Grab a dictionary. Read what it says for culmination.

Again, what is this bullshit? The unbalance had been there before Sidious was born, for thousands of years, ever since the prophecy of the Chosen One had been made.

Wrong.

The Sith hadn't affected the Force like they did during the PT and OT. It was literally dark side ascendance. The Jedi's ability to sense the Force was draining. LoE makes it clear that in preparation for Darth Sidious, the dark side had been "gaining strength".

Already addressed. Reply to that before you bring this up again.

Prove it was metaphor.

It doesn't, because as stated in the TotJ Companion, the technique itself grants its user limited control over the storm (which is all Palps had). It's ritualistic in nature. The force user simply focuses onto a certain part of their body with the force, and a wormhole is summoned. Again, many, including Nadd, have been stated to be able to perform the technique. Meaning, it can't put Sidious at the top of the hierarchy of Sith, given Sith within that hierarchy can perform the same feat.

Given the amount of energy that was directed purely as a product of his raw power with the darkside, it heavily suggests his power would be greater than Sidious'.

Ah, so nothing concrete? So this is a "suggestion" -- ultimately fallible. Hell, the "suggestion" could be that Kun merely lacked Sidious's control. Ergo, it is... irrelevant.

Eh? Do you mean he actually physically held it with the force?

Mental control.

WTF?

There were billions of inhabitants on Byss, yes, but it's not like he drained them all at once. He would drain an unknown amount of energy from the planet and inhabitants every now and then to sustain his old age. We don't know how many inhabitants he would drain at any given time, meaning this proves nothing.

Meaning this proves everything. He'd slowly feed off of the inhabitants to sustain his health as the dark side disintigrated his body. To quote tEGttF: "The more successful the dark sider, the more quickly that dark sider's body decays" -- to quote Luke in TUF, Palpatine was "more energy than flesh".

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
It doesn't, because as stated in the TotJ Companion, the technique itself grants its user limited control over the storm (which is all Palps had). It's ritualistic in nature. The force user simply focuses onto a certain part of their body with the force, and a wormhole is summoned. Again, many, including Nadd, have been stated to be able to perform the technique. Meaning, it can't put Sidious at the top of the hierarchy of Sith, given Sith within that hierarchy can perform the same feat.

Where does it say Nadd can do that? Are you referring to the "summon storm" technique listed in the DSSB?

As Gahlaktus said a few pages ago a scan or at the very least page number would help so I can see this storm you are referring to.

Edit: A scan would be the best.

TotJ Companion, PG 60.

Create Force Storms

Effect: this is perhaps the most destructive force power known. It allows the Jedi to twist the space - time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these Storms.

[random info that most know of]

Use of this power requires the focusing of hate and anger to an almost palpable degree...

[random info that most know of]

So, as you can see, power doesn't appear to be a real requirement. The ability grants its user limited control over the storm, and it's only stated that real anger and willpower is required (willpower is indicated given that hatred and anger has to be focused to a near palpable degree).

The power is ritualistic in nature, and it would appear that aside from having to know the location of the area in one's body that has to be focused with force energies (this is explained in the Book of Anger), it only speaks for willpower and anger + hatred. That fact, along with the fact that others have been attributed as knowing the ability, and it really doesn't say anything for Palpatine's power, nor does it make him the most powerful sith.

As for Nadd knowing it, it's stated that he can perform every mentioned ability in the sourcebook.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
As for Nadd knowing it, it's stated that he can perform every mentioned ability in the sourcebook. [/B]

And your pitiful argument is defeated yet again because Palpatine created the force storm, this is canon. Understand? So whatever is in that TOTJ book has clearly been retconned. Furthermore, it's unlikely Nadd knew half of the stuff in there considering his only source of power was Sadow, who specialized in sith magic. Kun knew various rituals and sith spells, but Revan knew a lot more than Kun did considering he got his power from various sources..

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
[b]TotJ Companion, PG 60.

Create Force Storms

Effect: this is perhaps the most destructive force power known. It allows the Jedi to twist the space - time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these Storms.

[random info that most know of]

Use of this power requires the focusing of hate and anger to an almost palpable degree...

[random info that most know of]

So, as you can see, power doesn't appear to be a real requirement. The ability grants its user limited control over the storm, and it's only stated that real anger and willpower is required (willpower is indicated given that hatred and anger has to be focused to a near palpable degree).

The power is ritualistic in nature, and it would appear that aside from having to know the location of the area in one's body that has to be focused with force energies (this is explained in the Book of Anger), it only speaks for willpower and anger + hatred. That fact, along with the fact that others have been attributed as knowing the ability, and it really doesn't say anything for Palpatine's power, nor does it make him the most powerful sith.

As for Nadd knowing it, it's stated that he can perform every mentioned ability in the sourcebook. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And your pitiful argument is defeated yet again because Palpatine created the force storm, this is canon. Understand? So whatever is in that TOTJ book has clearly been retconned.

Or, as is the case, you have no idea what you're talking about. The force storm was "created" by the Ancient Sith. Palpatine simply rediscovered it. Nowhere, in canon, does it say that Sidious created the ritual.

Furthermore, it's unlikely Nadd knew half of the stuff in there considering his only source of power was Sadow, who specialized in sith magic.

Or, as is the case, you have no clue what you're talking about. Aside from his Jedi training, Nadd is not only stated to have learnt from numerous Ancient Holocrons and Tomes, but we know that he learnt from Adas' Holocron, considered the greatest Source of Sith Teaching there is, and directly from the spirit of Naga Sadow, the same guy who's inferior could annihilate the life of an entire Planet with one force attack (Sources: Path of Destruction, and the TotJ Companion).

Kun knew various rituals and sith spells, but Revan knew a lot more than Kun did considering he got his power from various sources..

Please tell me Sexy, why exactly post this irrelevant piece of information, if not to give your boyfriend a virtual blowjob? I mean really, what purpose does that piece of information have, other than confirming for us your intense obsession for a video game character?

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Or, as is the case, you have no idea what you're talking about. The force storm was "created" by the Ancient Sith. Palpatine simply rediscovered it. Nowhere, in canon, does it say that Sidious created the ritual.

Please tell me Sexy, why exactly post this irrelevant piece of information, if not to give your boyfriend a virtual blowjob? I mean really, what purpose does that piece of information have, other than confirming for us your intense obsession for a video game character?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes, actually in canon it does say he created his version of the force storm. We know the original force storm( whatever it was), was derived from the ancient sith. The force storm Sidious created is entirely his, try again.

No, you appear to think there's some kind of difference there when there is none. Sidious' Force Storm, the wormhole technique, is the very technique that the Ancients invented. Stated in canon. And the very one that Ancient Jedi, and Nadd could perform. Hell, it's likely that Bane learnt it from Nadd's Holocron, and that's how Sidious even gained knowledge of it in the first place.

Not to mention that given that you claimed that Sidious was the one who invented it, it would be your burden of proof. Prove up, or shut up.

LOL.. Numerous ancient sith holocrons? Like what? OH that's right, you're full of shit as usual. The only holocron we KNOW he had was Adas'

Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes. - TotJ Companion, pg. 70.

Not to mention, even if that weren't the case, not only was your claim that Nadd gained knowledge from Sadow unsupported, but unsupportable.

[quote]and he used his primitive sith magic to conquer a backwater planet.

This has nothing to do with the topic. You're clearly a huge fan of irrelevant misdirection, I see. Do it again, and I'm done arguing with you.

Who is Naga Sadow's inferior now? For you to make a stupid statement like that, you'd have to show proof as to how and why this guy you are referring to is his "inferior".

Woman, actually, and she came from the Golden Age of the Ancient Sith. Kressh and Sadow were outright stated the most powerful Sith there were after Ragnos' passing, making them more powerful than her. Then, you have the fact that among the Ancient Sith, she wasn't even championed, whereas along with Ragnos, Kressh and Sadow, others such as Simus, Hord, Pall and Andeddu were. The Ancient Sith were clearly very powerful, and Nadd got to learn at the foot of one of the greatest.

Aww what's the matter Noobaris? Still mad because you can't debate? Because you can't win one? Because you have been banned 10+ times for utter stupidity? Or is it all of the above?

What an odd response. Not mad, no. I just find it strange how you had to bring Revan and Kun into the discussion for no real purpose, other then the fact that seeing Revan's name on your compute screen gives you goosebumps.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
No, you appear to think there's some kind of difference there when there is none. Sidious' Force Storm, the wormhole technique, is the very technique that the Ancients invented. Stated in canon. And the very one that Ancient Jedi, and Nadd could perform. Hell, it's likely that Bane learnt it from Nadd's Holocron, and that's how Sidious even gained knowledge of it in the first place.

Not to mention that given that you claimed that Sidious was the one who invented it, it would be your burden of proof. Prove up, or shut up.

This has nothing to do with the topic. You're clearly a huge fan of irrelevant misdirection, I see. Do it again, and I'm done arguing with you.

Woman, actually, and she came from the Golden Age of the Ancient Sith. Kressh and Sadow were outright stated the most powerful Sith there were after Ragnos' passing, making them more powerful than her. Then, you have the fact that among the Ancient Sith, she wasn't even championed, whereas along with Ragnos, Kressh and Sadow, others such as Simus, Hord, Pall and Andeddu were. The Ancient Sith were clearly very powerful, and Nadd got to learn at the foot of one of the greatest.

What an odd response. Not mad, no. I just find it strange how you had to bring Revan and Kun into the discussion for no real purpose, other then the fact that seeing Revan's name on your compute screen gives you goosebumps. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I, along with everybody else, always thought you were stupid. Now I can see it's not even a mystery anymore. There is NOTHING that states Sidious' force storm is the same as the ancients.

...

Did I not earlier post the description of the power given in the TotJ Companion? The description which is identical to that which describes Sidious' Force Storm.

So, clearly you're wrong, except in a world where "nothing" means "something."

In fact it is stated that Sidious created his own VERSION, so you lose.

No it isn't, your misinterpretations mean nothing.

There is no proof that Nadd can perform the force storm, since apparently the TOTJ sourcebook is obselete.

Apparently? Firstly, no, it's not. Secondly, clearly you don't actually have any fist hand knowledge, and are obviously going off of what someone was saying.

His sources of knowledge inolved primitive sith magic from Adas,

...

Clearly you don't actually know what primitive means, and think using the word whenever Nadd is mentioned makes you seem smart.

But no, Adas' holocron wouldn't be so sought after, and considered the greatest single source of Sith Magic if the knowledge within it was primitive.

and sith magic/alchemy from Sadow.

Not only is this unsupported, bu unsupportable, and quite clearly wrong as will be shown.

Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes. - TotJ Companion, pg. 70.

So, you're wrong.

So unless you'd like to guess where he MIGHT have learned it, your point is moot.

Wow I had no idea that your ability to use logic was this inept.

Your argument is essentially saying that Nadd only learnt from Sadow and Adas because that's all that's ever shown (not only are you wrong in the information count, but you're treating an absence of proof as a proof of absence), and then telling me that until I prove where exactly knowledge of the Force Storm was learnt from one of his source, the perfectly canon information in the TotJ Companion is wrong and retconned (essentially saying that the information that Nadd knew of the Force Storm is wrong until it can be shown exactly where he learnt it from).

I think we've established who out of us can't debate, Sexy.

Oh and right, Bane apparently learned it too. And apparently THATS how Sidious gained it! I forgot, this isn't star wars, it's star wars according to Noobaris. You have no point as usual.

It was an idea, I didn't claim it as fact, and you would know this if you'd learnt how to read.

It is in either Dark Empire Sourcebook, DSSB, or the new Jedi vs. Sith book. You'll find it in 2 of those.

I have all sources, ad it's not mentioned in one of them. Your inability to recall where you supposedly read this further supports that you're quite clearly talking shit.

Good Noobaris, because you can't debate. The fact that everybody but you can acknowledge this fact is pretty sad on your part. Don't "argue" with me, take the loss as you usually do, and go back to the drawing board.

Witty. Truly.

Except for the fact that it seems Ragnos was the last truly powerful sith,

Oh wow, such confidant words. "It seems." Wow. truly concrete argument there.

as Sadow and Kressh didn't exhibit anything on the level of uberness.

Again, you're treating an absence of proof as a proof of absence.

They don't need to have displayed it to have it.

Sadow was a sith alchemist, that was his speciality.

Sure it was, yet he was still perfectly on par with Kressh as far as power goes, one of the two most powerful Ancient Sith after Ragnos' passing, who wasn't specialised in such a branch of Sith Magic. point is, specialising in something doesn't in any way speak negatively for what you don't specialise in. He's still declared as one of the two Most Powerful Ancients, during the time that this Ancient Sith lady lived. He's more powerful than her, bottom line, and given what she was able to do, I'd say Nadd learning from him speaks volumes.

Your opinion means so much to me. Try winning a debate, and I'll consider taking you seriously..One day..

You taking me seriously wouldn't be a good thing for me, believe me, so continue not taking me seriously please. What you should take seriously, however, is your obsession with male Video Game characters. Seriously.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
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Did I not earlier post the description of the power given in the TotJ Companion? The description which is identical to that which describes Sidious' Force Storm.

You taking me seriously wouldn't be a good thing for me, believe me, so continue not taking me seriously please. What you should take seriously, however, is your obsession with male Video Game characters. Seriously.