Darth Sion vs Darth Sidious

GahLakTus!

I am not going to waste my time arguing with you on a point that you are trying to prolong for no valid reason.

I never said that Nihilus' Super Force Severing attack > Palpatine' Force Storm. If you think that I have said this than apparently it is clear that you are not concentrating properly or you have reading issues.

I have got much more important things to do instead.

Oh ok, i thought you were saying his ability > palpatines, sorry

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Rude? Whenever in my post above did I insult you or call you a name? I was trying to have formal discussion but you obviously would rather insult me.

In my head I know what I'm talking about, but not in the head of others? I consider that highly offensive, you rude, rude person. Apolagize, and do it properly.

An order that we know absolutely nothing about. For all we know they could have been around before since the Great Hyperspace war meaning they would be around longer than Nadd, and even before Exar Kunwhich was 40 years earlier than Revan's sith. They could have even predated the sith empire of Ragnos.

We know that they were Ancient Sith, a species that practised the darkside, and the species that laid out the entire Sith Culture.

That is true that was Revan's original goal before he started. But he adopted all the sith philosophies and became a sith lord and reopened the korriban academy

You clearly don't quite get the whole reason behind Revan's fall to the darkside. He did it to build an Empire strong enough to challenge the True Sith. He planned on using the darkside and Sith Magic against them. Everything he did was purely for the purpose of eradicating the true threat.

Now, we know that eventually he fell so far that that no longer became his goal (as indicated by how he leaves behind his holocron) and he truly was immersed in the Sith ways, but the fact that goals which were detrimental to the True Sith Empire were what began the order, it simply can't be considered a truly legitimate Sith Order.

And again, nothing indicates that Revan truly learnt from the Ancient Sith [or true Sith that followed them], or was deemed worthy by them, so there's simply no reason to consider he and his Order true Sith.

and was because of the surviving sith of his empire would eventually lead to the sith that would eventually be lead by Ruin.

Where are you getting this from? Darth Ruin simply left the Jedi Order and reformed the Sith Empire by gathering the Sith Cults that had been scattered after the Great Sith War (Exar Kun's Sith War).

Even still, so a pretender gathers sects of the empire of a pretender? How exactly does this make him a legitimate Sith Lord, or the Order before him?

Both groups are sith, Revan,Malak,Nihilus,Sion, Traya are all sith they have been regarded as sith throughout time.

1. KotOR is actually a pretty isolated piece of work as far as the EU is concerned. A few mentions here and there, and that's it.

2. They are referred as such because that is what they proclaimed themselves as being. Doesn't make their self proclamation legitimate, however.

And for all we know the "true sith" Could be member of the sith species not apart of the cult or sith empire of marka ragnos. Since after Adas defeated the Rakatan since they did posses the technology to relocate themselves. We don't know.

For all we know? We do know that, Traya makes it pretty clear that they are members of the actual Sith Race, and the fact that they were actual Ancient Sith doesn't detract from my point. The Ancient Sith were practitioners of the darkside, that began the Sith Ways. The Sith originated with them.

Um i have read but I have also read Path of Destruction (which we know came out more recently) and I know you read it too. In which Revan's holocron also talks about the rule of two. Revan's holocron clearly said:This is also the reason there can only be one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be.

Then a little bit latter on it says
Bane was sitting cross-legged on the stone floor of the central chamber on the Rakatan Temple's uppermost floor. He was meditating on Revan's words as he had often done between the Holocron's lessons. Now that the artifact was gone, it was even more important to contemplate what he had learned about the nature of the dark side . . . and the path it would lead him down.
During this point the narrator states this( i apologize for it being a little long)

This was the inescapable paradox of the Sith.Kaan had tried to solve the problem by making everyone equal in the Brotherhood. But his solution was flawed. It showed no understanding of the real problem. No understanding of the true nature of the dark side. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If all are equal, then none is strong. Yet whoever rose from the swollen and bloated ranks of the Sith to claim the mantle of Dark Lord would never be able to hold it. In time the apprentices will unite their strength and overthrow the Master. It is inevitable. Together the weak would overwhelm the strong in a gross perversion of the natural order.But there was another solution. A way to break the endless cycle dragging the Sith down. Bane understood that now. At first he had thought the answer might be to replace the order of the Sith with a single, all-powerful Dark Lord. No other Masters. No apprentices. Just one vessel to contain all the knowledge and power of the dark side. But he had quickly dismissed the idea.Eventually even a Dark Lord would wither and die; all the knowledge of the Sith would be lost. If the leader grows weak, another must rise to seize the mantle. One alone would never work. But if the Sith numbered exactly two. Minions and servants could be drawn in to the service of the dark side by the temptation of power. They could be given small tastes of what it offered, as an owner might share morsels from the table with his faithful curs. In the end, however, there could be only one true Sith Master. And to serve this Master, there could be only one true apprentice.Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody the power, the other to crave it. [B]The Rule of Two .This was the knowledge that would lead the dark side into a new age. A revelation that would bring an end to the infighting that had defined the order for a thousand generations. The Sith would be reborn, the new ways

So Revan can received just as much credit as Nadd for the rule of two if not more (depends of the next bane book)

I wasn't arguing who receives more credit for it, I was simply explaining why I consider Bane a true Sith Lord, and not Revan or his Empire.

And your opinion is not canon no matter what you argue says.

Canon doesn't indicate whether Kaan and his Brotherhood of Darkness were true Sith or not, meaning we simply don't know, and can't label him as such. I'm not saying my opinion is definite or anything, just explaining why I think that way.

Kaan is a sith a bad one at that yet still a sith. Whether you recognize him as one or not And the same goes for anyother sith lord you have mentioned as not being one since they are recognized as being sith in every source book or any star wars material period.

Yes, and they are recognised that way because that's how they chose to label themselves. Doesn't make them truly legitimate.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
After 10+ bans and countless wtfpwns, you still have the temerity to waste everybody's time and embarass yourself doing it. Since your argument has yet again been pwned and you are in a need of a reality check, I'll chime in.

I didn't know you were an authority on "speed", or the author of KOTOR, or even ANYBODY credible to interpret the fight as "Sion won with speed alone", and "Sion is one fast mofo". Since there's no real evidence of this, you're an idiot.

No real evidence? Traya is clearly extremely adept with the force given her displays of it (predicting numerous events with extreme precision and detail, one in particular which would take place thousands of years into the future); the resurrection of Hanharr, killing three Jedi Masters effortlessly in quick succession, and cloaking her entire presence from Jedi Masters while being right next to them), and amping up one's speed and reactions are both applications of the force, meaning she's adept with them. Not to mentioned her unrivalled precognition, yet none of that (speed, reactions, precognition) was able to prevent Sion from one hit owning her with his lightsaber.

The sheer speed to overpower one with speed, reaction times and precognition of the likes of Traya is only ever replicated by Luke Skywalker. If such speed wasn't anything special, we would see such displays replicated more than just once.

Someone that doesn't know how to debate or the meaning of "argument", shouldn't be using big words he doesn't understand. Imagine your "argument" is a squirrel, and I ran up behind you and kicked you're argument (at least try and keep your so very unfunny jokes consistant, Sexy) over the fence. Pwned, wtfpwned, debunked, call it what you'd like because they all apply.

Right.

And as canon policy is stated, n-canon=n-canon. Your constant ability to argue with pure canon makes you look more ridiculous than ever.

Canon is essentially the storyline. I wasn't claiming that the cut scene would be part of the storyline, meaning I wasn't arguing with canon. I doubt you even know what canon is.

However, given that the scene was only not included because of time restraints, we can deduce that the powers displayed by Nihilus, and the resistance displayed by Sion, both fully fit in accordance with the Game producer's vision.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Nihilus is the most destructive force power? Are you forgetting Sidious' storms? Nihilus' technique kills individuals (if that's even the tech he used), but it does not have the pure destructive power of Sidious' storms.

You're ignoring scale, like most, as well as the fact that Sidious' technique can't be focused in a one-on-one scenario, and the very nature of it means that no ability is required to pull it off (essentially meaning that it doesn't speak for his overall ability).

Besides all that, is that scene even cannon, considering that it was cut from the game.

The scene itself, no. But what we see of their powers would fit with what the Game Developer's intended them to be like.

How are they even remotely on the same scale? Forgetting the storms, Sidious' once killed 100 stormtroopers in a singe power burst.

Isolate all of his other lightning displays, why don't you?

Now look to the movies, when Dooku attempts to overpower Yoda with Lightning, Yoda absorbs it with ease. Yet when Sidious does, Yoda struggles to contain it. But surely, given the similar scale of both attacks, the force energies expanded would have been the same, by your logic. Clearly, you haven't quite grasped the whole concept of concentrated energies, and how scale isn't all.

By your logic, to overpower a non force sensitive, and to overpower Yoda, through pure TK, wouldn't require any variance in force energies expanded simply because of the scale being constant in both cases.

Or to move an object a given distance, and to do the same at twice the speed, would require no different release of force energies.

show me where it says that simply having powerful force potential gave you amazing pre-cog or speed without having to refine the technique.

I didn't say force potential, I said force ability. As for whether or not she would have refined the technique, padawans are taught to amp up their physical attributes with the force. Traya, being an experience Jedi Master, would have definitely refined such a simply technique. As for pre-cog, the same applies, as well as the fact that she actually displays the technique with a potency like no other (at the end of KotOR2).

Also show me where it's implied that Traya herself possessed speed that was worth a damn, because if she didn't then Sion out pacing her is irrelevant.

She's a phenomenally powerful force user. Force speed is a very simply technique that padawans learn. Ergo, she would know how to do it, and would excel at it.

Exactly how much was her force ability augmented by with each kill?

Like I'm somehow supposed to know what's not shown in canon... Silly question. However, when the Masters bring it up, they do it with emphasis on her power, meaning the augmentation was obviously to quite a high degree.

What's more, how does anything about the exile even come close to comparing to the most powerful Sith lord in history.

Most powerful Sith lord in history? Stop bringing up this bullshit, he quite clearly wasn't (that's right, ambiguous text doesn't change that), given he's displayed clear limits to his power, which other Sith have displayed power in excess of.

Also, try not to lose sight of the bigger picture here. You were claiming that Sion getting beat down by Exile repeatedly somehow means the same would happen with Sidious, meaning it's your burden of proof to prove that Sidious is greater than the Exile, not mine to prove otherwise.

Your grasping at straws here, give her power some context if your going to claim that she's stronger than Sidious.

I already did, if you could actually read, you would know this. Fighting through an entire Sith Academy filled with Dark Jedi, Droids, Turret Guns, Darth fricking Sion, a then going on to defeat Traya makes it quite clear that she was exceptionally powerful.

First off, the statement does exist (seriously, your ignorance of the source material only proves that even you don't believe the crap you spew), ROTS novelization, enjoy.

Loving the quote and page number. Oh wait!

Secondly, the whole point of the KOTOR II lightside path was the exile reclaiming her title as a jedi, she's identified as such in other material, she is a jedi.

She's barely mentioned in other material, and at best, she's only ever referred to as the Jedi Exile, which doesn't qualify as a Jedi, in the same way that "Fallen Jedi" or "Dark Jedi" don't. Fact is, there was no Jedi Order at the time for which to be a Jedi of, and when there had been, she had been exiled and essentially was no longer truly a Jedi. Fact of the matter is, The Exile ain't no Jedi.

How about you post some actual evidence aside from your personal views on a characters state of mind for a change? Like a statement or something indicating that, as you say, he wasn't fully defending himself.

Clearly you need a statement expressing such a thing and can't quite think logically for yourself. Now don't be dense [u got] Pwned, if one doesn't need to protect oneself, and is in a fight in which he is going full out, the focus would quite clearly be on the offense, rather than defence. There would be no need, essentially making defending himself mostly pointless. Only a 5 year old wouldn't quite understand that. Are you a 5 year old, Pwned?

Now show me where it was stated that he was decapitated or had a limb severed and still got up.

Apparently logical deduction is beyond you.

Please tell me Pwned, why exactly would the Exile continue to simply just stab him (if indeed that is what she originally did to strike him down) if it was quite clearly ineffective against him? Don't you think, as an accomplished warrior, she would step it up, and maybe go for decapitation, or the removal of his limb? Only an idiot would continue to attack him in such a way that was quite clearly ineffective. Occam's Razor would indicate that any form of lightsaber damage, was quite simply ineffective against his resistance to damage.

I've already said where the statements can be found, they clearly state that Sids is the strongest.

No they don't, ambiguous text proves nothing.

Pure speed alone would not be enough to overcome those master, especially not ones with their ability in combat.

Wow, you're still not getting this. Technique, strength and other such factors only factor in when blades clash, and combinations are utilised. Sion sliced her hand off in one move. He essentially was able to strike his blade through a position before Traya could react to it. What factor, other than speed, would be utilised there? On Traya's part, the only means with which to prevent such a thing would be her reactions and her speed. Simply being able to react to an attack and blocking it has no relation to pure technique.

And even if it were all about speed, then you'll have to show me where Sion displays anywhere near the same.

Sion appears in a few cutscenes within one video game...

It's not like there's much exposure on him that would highlight his speed on the constant.

Please, don't be ridiculous, the feat quite clearly speaks heavily for his speed. Another feat to support that is not necessary, and you asking for one simply highlights your lack to argue against the one mentioned.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
In my head I know what I'm talking about, but not in the head of others? I consider that highly offensive, you rude, rude person. Apolagize, and do it properly.

Whatever you say Nebaris.

We know that they were Ancient Sith, a species that practised the darkside, and the species that laid out the entire Sith Culture.

Then a little latter down you say this:

For all we know? We do know that, Traya makes it pretty clear that they are members of the actual Sith Race, and the fact that they were actual Ancient Sith doesn't detract from my point. The Ancient Sith were practitioners of the darkside, that began the Sith Ways. The Sith originated with them.

If they are members of the sith race and Traya says the predate the sith empire. It seems they left after Adas died meaning they predated the exile of the dark jedi who would land on Korriban. And the point then would be they are not practitioners of the darkside the darkside they way the sith would be after the dark jedi arrived. That is a key point. There is simply not enough info about them to make an accurate judgment. So if there is ever more info then an arguement can truly be made but you are going by Traya's comments which is all there is about them.

You clearly don't quite get the whole reason behind Revan's fall to the darkside. He did it to build an Empire strong enough to challenge the True Sith. He planned on using the darkside and Sith Magic against them. Everything he did was purely for the purpose of eradicating the true threat.Now, we know that eventually he fell so far that that no longer became his goal (as indicated by how he leaves behind his holocron) and he truly was immersed in the Sith ways, but the fact that goals which were detrimental to the True Sith Empire were what began the order, it simply can't be considered a truly legitimate Sith Order.

But that is your opinion and it is like Bane saying that Kaan is not a true sith but Revan was. The facts are that they are sith and its canon and if they had the same opinon as you on Revan they can announce that Revan is not really a sith but a pretender like you say.

And if these true sith did exist then what happened to them? Since there is no mention of them later on after the kotor period it seems to me that they would have been defeated since they were very close to invading the republic and then all of sudden no mention of them. So if they were defeated and that is why the never came then what sith would be considered real and not prenteders? Granted this a theory since koto 3 has not be made or released it is not exaclty definitve but holds water that they would have been defeated and with their defeat then there is no sith left until Bane well at least in yoir opinion since you seem to not recognize Revan or Kaan to be pretenders.

And again, nothing indicates that Revan truly learnt from the Ancient Sith [or true Sith that followed them], or was deemed worthy by them, so there's simply no reason to consider he and his Order true Sith

Right so Revan just ignored all of the sith knowledge and power he gain from Malachor and later on when he went to Korriban. He learned from the ancient sith without actually having one of them teach him. And then you say your opinion that they were not true which goes against canon.

Where are you getting this from? Darth Ruin simply left the Jedi Order and reformed the Sith Empire by gathering the Sith Cults that had been scattered after the Great Sith War (Exar Kun's Sith War).

Prove to me that they were remnants of kun's sith. It much more likely the sith that Ruin would join/unite were remnants of Revan's sith who survived the JCW and the sith civil wars to follow. In fact I believe it was mentioned in the NEC that there was a surviving sith from what I have just mentioned above.

Even still, so a pretender gathers sects of the empire of a pretender? How exactly does this make him a legitimate Sith Lord, or the Order before him?

I assume you are talking about Kaan and what does? canon does like it or not. Like Bane's opinion on them both of yours is not canon. So the fact remain\s that Revan's lineage of sith would become the sith that Ruin would come to unite.

1. KotOR is actually a pretty isolated piece of work as far as the EU is concerned. A few mentions here and there, and that's it.2. They are referred as such because that is what they proclaimed themselves as being. Doesn't make their self proclamation legitimate, however.

Yet it if they did(out of universe) dconsider Revan a pretender they have the power to say he is really just a dark jedi and a pretender sith but they don't. No the reason is that they jedi accepted and them to be and the sith later on like Bane say refer to them as such.

I wasn't arguing who receives more credit for it, I was simply explaining why I consider Bane a true Sith Lord, and not Revan or his Empire.

Fair enough. It sounded like you were giving all the credit to Nadd. But your second statement is the same as Bane considering Revan to be a true sith lord yet Kaan not.

Canon doesn't indicate whether Kaan and his Brotherhood of Darkness were true Sith or not, meaning we simply don't know, and can't label him as such. I'm not saying my opinion is definite or anything, just explaining why I think that way

I understand where your coming from but canon stills labels them as sith meaning they are true sith in terms of being part of the sith lineage as for Revan and Nihilus etc. this got really off topic the point is that that you claiming that Nihilus is not a true sith meaning that he would be included in the sith so the quotes that back Sidious as the most powerful sith ever is false and he does pertain to it. You really could a be a great debater here if you would not argue against canon which is what you are doing here by trying to find a loophole to exclude sion and nihilus from being real sith. The bottom line is the true sith have not enough info about them for your claims to hold water here. You can provide all the in universe "evidence" to support your theory and views but when they go against canon is where you lose everytime.

Noobaris, you're boring everyone. Stop talking and turn off your computer.

Originally posted by Gideon
My apologies, Nebaris, but "those statements" do -- in fact -- exist; three separate ones from three separate sources off the top of my head, with my copy of the RotS novelization notwithstanding.

"The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. [B]The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."
-- Death Star, page 76. Emphasis mine.

"...Yoda could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page ??? (I don't own the book). Emphasis mine.

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72. Emphasis mine.

And before you go off reciting how the adjective is referring to Darth Sidious's political achievements -- the statement is made in the very beginning of the Attack of the Clones section. All he has done, at this point, has gotten himself elected Chancellor -- with relatively limited powers -- as this is before the manipulation of the Separatist crisis granted him unprecedented political latitude. Likewise, the Jedi Order is still functioning, as is the Republic, and the Empire is nonexistent. It is an obvious reference to power.

Likewise, here is a bit from Publius:

The Dark Empire Sourcebook states (p. 39) that "Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure". It goes on to list the following powers: Absorb/dissipate energy, accelerate healing, control pain, detoxify poison, enhance attribute, hibernation trance, rage, reduce injury, remain conscious, resist stun, short-term memory enhancement, combat sense, danger sense, instinctive astrogation, life detection, life sense, magnify senses, receptive telepathy, sense Force, sense path, injure/kill, telekinesis, farseeing (i.e., prescience and clairvoyance), lightsaber combat, projective telepathy, accelerate another's healing, control another's pain, feed on dark side, Force lightning, inflict pain, return another to consciousness, transfer Force, affect mind, control minds, create Force storms, Dopplegänger, drain life essence, enhanced coordination, telekinetic kill, transfer life, and dim another's senses.

Three notable powers subsequently introduced which he almost surely possessed include the forbidden Jedi arts of malacia and mortichro (ref. the Databank) and the Sith discipline mechu-duru (ref. "The Emperor's Pawns"😉; one notable exception is the creation of Sith zombies, which he has been specifically stated not to have known (as detailed in the Wizards of the Coast web site's entry on Korriban). Generally speaking, however, it is a reasonable assumption that the Galactic Emperor either possesses a given ability, or could easily learn it.

The most intriguing demonstrations of his power are the circumstances surrounding the burial of HIMS Lusankya on Imperial Centre (some speculate that he "clouded men's minds" à la Shadow) and the circumstances surrounding the arrival of General Skywalker on Byss (which involved the Emperor opening a wormhole in hyperspace and projecting a Force storm across possibly thousands of light years, and somehow physically depositing General Skywalker in the hold of a Lictor-class dungeon ship with the Force storm, suggesting that he is in fact capable of teleportation).

PUBLIUS

Addendums: The situation regarding the burial of the Lusankya were proven to be a direct result from "the Emperor's mind-fogging powers" (the Essential Guide to Characters, Ysanne Isard). Likewise, the Essential Chronology states that when the Star Destroyer tore itself from the planet, it killed "millions instantly" -- so Palpatine warped the minds of millions. [/B]

edit

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

You're ignoring scale, like most, as well as the fact that Sidious' technique can't be focused in a one-on-one scenario, and the very nature of it means that no ability is required to pull it off (essentially meaning that it doesn't speak for his overall ability).

[/B]

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

No real evidence? Traya is clearly extremely adept with the force given her displays of it (predicting numerous events with extreme precision and detail, one in particular which would take place thousands of years into the future); the resurrection of Hanharr, killing three Jedi Masters effortlessly in quick succession, and cloaking her entire presence from Jedi Masters while being right next to them), and amping up one's speed and reactions are both applications of the force, meaning she's adept with them. Not to mentioned her unrivalled precognition, yet none of that (speed, reactions, precognition) was able to prevent Sion from one hit owning her with his lightsaber.

[/B]

Prove that kreia ressurected hanharr seeing that he questioned her "why didn't you let me die". Had he really die and brought back to life, he would have said "Why didn't you leave me dead"
Right i also forgot that she killed 3 inferior average jedi masters whom have not shown anything spetacular.

If sion is more powerful than kreia, why did he bow to her towards the end to the game, for the sith the more powerful will never bow to somebody inferior. Your an idiot nebaris an idiot who has demonstrated "infinite stupidity"

Right
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Now thanks to gideon for these

"The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
When Kreia had her hand cut off, she wasn't even a remotely powerful Force user, cause, you know, Nihilus cut her off.

Firstly, we don't even know that Nihilus had cut her off for certain.

Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that such would have any sort of longterm effect.

Thirdly, the incident took place ages before, and Kreia could use the force just fine at the beginning of KotOR 2. She could use force sight, could speak to the Exile telepathically, could predict things with the force, could hide her presence with the force, and put herself into a force trance. I highly doubt she would have even gone up against Sion in the first place if she wasn't at her best.

Either way, it's your job to prove that her force ability would be in any way not quite at best at the beginning of KotOR 2 for your point to stand.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Firstly, we don't even know that Nihilus had cut her off for certain.

Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that such would have any sort of longterm effect.

Thirdly, the incident took place ages before, and Kreia could use the force just fine at the beginning of KotOR 2. She could use force sight, could speak to the Exile telepathically, could predict things with the force, could hide her presence with the force, and put herself into a force trance.

Im actually think I might agree with you here that she was not cut off(or at least for long time) otherwise she could not telepathically and remember she did make her lightsaber move after she hit the wall a little then she stopped yet could do all the things you mentioned but could it be because of the bond with the exile that allowed her to use the force again? That's the only explanation I can think of Nihilus cut her off then maybe the exile could have reconnect her with the bond.(im no expert on the exile or traya or force bonds for that matter) It is so dam inconsistent really. Fill me in here people.

Originally posted by Gideon
My apologies, Nebaris,

Look, Gideon, I can see that you're clearly much more intelligent than most here, and you haven't decided to get aggressive or anything, so I'll remain civil. But, honestly, I'm not Nebaris, there's not really much more I can say. If you could, post this guy's profile, so I'll be better able to point out the differences that will clearly be there. Also, out of curiosity, did Nebaris happen to go by the alias of David Storm? Some fool in the comic book versus forum accused me of being a sock of that person, so just curious.

but "those statements" do -- in fact -- exist; three separate ones from three separate sources off the top of my head, with my copy of the RotS novelization notwithstanding.

What does the RotS novelisation have to do with anything?

"The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."
-- Death Star, page 76. Emphasis mine.

1. This was actually quite clearly from Vader's PoV.

Vader could sense the hostility of some of the men behind Tarkin, but that was of no importance. Hostile words or actions he could and would deal with, but thoughts of the weak-minded were no threat.
Tarkin, oily and smooth as always, was a man who knew where his best interests lay, and as long as his own plans matched those of the Emperor, he was a useful tool. Which was good, because Vader would not hesitate to use that tool.
The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.
As would Vader be, someday.
But that was in the future. Now he had more mundane duties. There were problems with the construction of this station. When Vader left, those problems would be corrected. He would return as necessary to correct more troubles as they appeared, and he would also return at times when things were proceeding smoothly, just to remind Tarkin and his senior officers that the Emperor's eye was always watching them.
Always.

As you can see, the text that appears both directly before and after the paragraph you posted explores Vader's thoughts, meaning that the paragraph most likely represents what Vader was thinking at the time.

Either way, prove that it was fully the Omniscient Narrator's thoughts and feelings, or drop the point. If you reall choose to go that route, you'd also have to argue that Vader eventially surpassed Sidious, given it's stated that he would have, directly afterwards.

2. Powerful is a very ambiguous word. Just look at the context that surrounds the paragraph you posted.

The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force.

This is essentially saying that Palpatine fully worked in accordance with the darkside, and was the perfect tool to do its bidding. Speaking for his dedication to the darkside and the Sith Ways. Dedication, which when directed with patience at the Jedi and Republic, enabled him to be the most politically and military powerful Sith there had ever been.

Now, prove that power in this sense referred to personal power, or drop the point.

"...Yoda could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page ??? (I don't own the book). Emphasis mine.

Well, this point I find troubling to deal with. Whilst I know that the New Essential Chronology is technically a fallible in-universe guide, I also know at the same time that it's only made to appear as such, so that the reader feels more in touch with the SWU, and it's really as infallible as an out-of-universe guide. But, at the end of the day, the statement makes no sense whatsoever, given it refers to RotS Sidious (who, along with his rivals, has displayed limits that other Sith have been able to overcome), so I'm gonna choose to treat it as what it technically is: an opinion from someone inside the SWU. And such an opinion will always be infallible.

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72. Emphasis mine.

And before you go off reciting how the adjective is referring to Darth Sidious's political achievements -- the statement is made in the very beginning of the Attack of the Clones section. All he has done, at this point, has gotten himself elected Chancellor -- with relatively limited powers -- as this is before the manipulation of the Separatist crisis granted him unprecedented political latitude. Likewise, the Jedi Order is still functioning, as is the Republic, and the Empire is nonexistent. It is an obvious reference to power.

Firstly, greatness is almost always measured through accomplishments. Prove, undeniably, that it's power in this case.

Secondly, you may say that it's in reference to Sidious at the beginning of AotC, but it doesn't change the fact that it's being explored from a time later on. The description could refer to a Sidious at a much later time, yet simply speaking of that person, in respect to the past.

Likewise, here is a bit from Publius: I'll get to that in a bit

Addendums: The situation regarding the burial of the Lusankya were proven to be a direct result from "the Emperor's mind-fogging powers" (the Essential Guide to Characters, Ysanne Isard). Likewise, the Essential Chronology states that when the Star Destroyer tore itself from the planet, it killed "millions instantly" -- so Palpatine warped the minds of millions.

Not sure I quite follow. How would the fact that the Star Destroyer killed millions instantly mean that Palpatine warped the minds of millions? From what I've read, Palpatine simply warped the minds of the engineers who oversaw the burial of the Star Destroyer.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Im actually think I might agree with you here that she was not cut off(or at least for long time) otherwise she could not telepathically and remember she did make her lightsaber move after she hit the wall a little then she stopped yet could do all the things you mentioned but could it be because of the bond with the exile that allowed her to use the force again? That's the only explanation I can think of Nihilus cut her off then maybe the exile could have reconnect her with the bond.(im no expert on the exile or traya or force bonds for that matter) It is so dam inconsistent really. Fill me in here people.

It's possible, but we really won't know either way unless it's later explored.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Not sure I quite follow. How would the fact that the Star Destroyer killed millions instantly mean that Palpatine warped the minds of millions? From what I've read, Palpatine simply warped the minds of the engineers who oversaw the burial of the Star Destroyer.

I will let Gideon address the rest since he posted it and knows more on Sidious and those quotes than me but here he is saying that Palpatine had to wipe the minds of the citizens or surely they would notice something about 19 kilometers being buried beneath the surface and the noise something I like that would make not to mention the massive shadows that would appear. And by wiping away the minds then they would not know it was there certainly people would talk about if they remembered it and woud you want your home above a super star destroyer that would destroy your house and kill you if you were present when launched to be below your feet.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Whatever you say Nebaris.

Then a little latter down you say this:

If they are members of the sith race and Traya says the predate the sith empire. It seems they left after Adas died meaning they predated the exile of the dark jedi who would land on Korriban. And the point then would be they are not practitioners of the darkside the darkside they way the sith would be after the dark jedi arrived. That is a key point. There is simply not enough info about them to make an accurate judgment. So if there is ever more info then an arguement can truly be made but you are going by Traya's comments which is all there is about them.

I do know why he fell and you mentioned it here and how he did fall so far. The thing is they left behind things other sith that would later use. The name darth while not necessarily created by them yet they certainly revived it and the revived korriban academy. And again the whole point of this is you claiming they are pretenders due to Revan creating them to fight the true sith.

But that is your opinion and it is like Bane saying that Kaan is not a true sith but Revan was. The facts are that they are sith and its canon and if they had the same opinon as you on Revan they can announce that Revan is not really a sith but a pretender like you say.

And if these true sith did exist then what happened to them? Since there is no mention of them later on after the kotor period it seems to me that they would have been defeated since they were very close to invading the republic and then all of sudden no mention of them. So if they were defeated and that is why the never came then what sith would be considered real and not prenteders? Granted this a theory since koto 3 has not be made or released it is not exaclty definitve but holds water that they would have been defeated and with their defeat then there is no sith left until Bane well at least in yoir opinion since you seem to not recognize Revan or Kaan to be pretenders.

Right so Revan just ignored all of the sith knowledge and power he gain from Malachor and later on when he went to Korriban. He learned from the ancient sith without actually having one of them teach him. And then you say your opinion that they were not true which goes against canon.

Prove to me that they were remnants of kun's sith. It much more likely the sith that Ruin would join/unite were remnants of Revan's sith who survived the JCW and the sith civil wars to follow. In fact I believe it was mentioned in the NEC that there was a surviving sith from what I have just mentioned above.

I assume you are talking about Kaan and what does? canon does like it or not. Like Bane's opinion on them both of yours is not canon. So the fact remain\s that Revan's lineage of sith would become the sith that Ruin would come to unite.

Yet it if they did(out of universe) dconsider Revan a pretender they have the power to say he is really just a dark jedi and a pretender sith but they don't. No the reason is that they jedi accepted and them to be and the sith later on like Bane say refer to them as such.

Fair enough. It sounded like you were giving all the credit to Nadd. But your second statement is the same as Bane considering Revan to be a true sith lord yet Kaan not.

I understand where your coming from but canon stills labels them as sith meaning they are true sith in terms of being part of the sith lineage as for Revan and Nihilus etc. this got really off topic the point is that that you claiming that Nihilus is not a true sith meaning that he would be included in the sith so the quotes that back Sidious as the most powerful sith ever is false and he does pertain to it. You really could a be a great debater here if you would not argue against canon which is what you are doing here by trying to find a loophole to exclude sion and nihilus from being real sith. The bottom line is the true sith have not enough info about them for your claims to hold water here. You can provide all the in universe "evidence" to support your theory and views but when they go against canon is where you lose everytime.

Traya makes it explicitly clear that these Sith were a real threat, which they wouldn't be if not for practising Sith Magic. Now you may label Traya fallible, but it's quite clearly the Game Developer's means for which to set up the drama behind Revan's fall and what he was hoping to achieve. Meaning, these Ancient Sith would be the very same that essentially created the entire culture. Now, Revan may have eventually truly fallen and become fully immersed in the Sith Ways, but the fact that his Empire was built to combat these Sith, in my mind, detracts from its possible legitimacy.

And of course, like I've said, there's no proof that Revan learnt directly from any Ancient Sith or legitimate Sith that followed, and especially is there no proof that they deemed him worthy.

"Further supporting this, from the NEC: Revan and Malak took up Sith holdings left dormant after the First Sith War, establishing a link between their ideology and that of Exar Kun, despite their lack of a connection to the Sith Species itself."

Really, nothing indicates that Revan and his Order were definitely legitimate Sith. being referred to as such is simply because that was what they were considered at the time, and how they proclaimed themselves. Not that this matters really; as shown, Gideon's quotes aren't conclusive, and neither is any other from what I've seen of SW literature.

BTW, for the record, Darth Ruin was stated to have gathered scattered cults from Kun's Empire in Evil Never Dies. Not Revan's Empire.

Also, sorry about the hostility earlier, my bad on that bigtime.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I will let Gideon address the rest since he posted it and knows more on Sidious and those quotes than me but here he is saying that Palpatine had to wipe the minds of the citizens or surely they would notice something about 19 kilometers being buried beneath the surface and the noise something I like that would make not to mention the massive shadows that would appear. And by wiping away the minds then they would not know it was there certainly people would talk about if they remembered it and woud you want your home above a super star destroyer that would destroy your house and kill you if you were present when launched to be below your feet.

Well, there's no indication as to whether any citizens would have witnessed the burial. It's only ever stated that he wiped the minds of the engineers that buried it, and for all we know, that could have been in an isolated area with no witnesses. Or, he could have simply had any witnesses killer or imprisoned. I honestly don't think he did anything more than what's actually stated.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Well, there's no indication as to whether any citizens would have witnessed the burial. It's only ever stated that he wiped the minds of the engineers that buried it, and for all we know, that could have been in an isolated area with no witnesses. Or, he could have simply had any witnesses killer or imprisoned. I honestly don't think he did anything more than what's actually stated.

You do know that there would millions upon million of witnesses to see the ship coming descending that be a a significant amount of the population to be killed to be noticed by the citizens who didn't actually witness. To hide a ship 19 kilometers or 11 miles long without the use of the force would be impossible since there is always traffic in the skies of coruscant. A ship leaving the planet could have seen it descend and Sidious could not to a thing to stop the people of the ship from telling their story since they would have left the planet and I would bet there would be many ships doing that. And it is possible that the republic could have found out about it that way. Not to mention the republic probably had spies on coruscant that could have seen it. And then what about the people in the imperial military? Certainly not all of them were qualified to know something this important. Sidious would also have to worry about treacherous naval officers ( or common thieves for that matter) from trying to steal or sabotage the ship if they had enough support. It is much more likely that the he erased the citizens minds.

2 words: Cloaking Device. The ship could have landed into Coruscant whilst cloaked, taken to an isolated area (we know it was buried in one of the Mountain sectors of Coruscant), and only the engineers and crew of the ship would have been in the know (the crew of which he could have simply ordered the death of). The giant shadow and noise wouldn't in any way matter if it were buried in an isolated area. Nothing indicates that the Emperor would have had to mind wipe anyone other than the engineers. As for your claim that Coruscant is constantly filled with air traffic, could I have some proof? Same with your claim that there would be millions of witnesses.

As for the millions that were killed, that happened much later, during a completely unrelated incident, when Yvanne Isard fled from Coruscant to Thyferra in the Lusyanka. That had nothing to do with when the Lusyanka was buried.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
2 words: Cloaking Device. The ship could have landed into Coruscant whilst cloaked, taken to an isolated area (we know it was buried in one of the Mountain sectors of Coruscant), and only the engineers and crew of the ship would have been in the know (the crew of which he could have simply ordered the death of). The giant shadow and noise wouldn't in any way matter if it were buried in an isolated area. Nothing indicates that the Emperor would have had to mind wipe anyone other than the engineers. As for your claim that Coruscant is constantly filled with air traffic, could I have some proof? Same with your claim that there would be millions of witnesses.

As for the millions that were killed, that happened much later, during a completely unrelated incident, when Yvanne Isard fled from Coruscant to Thyferra in the Lusyanka. That had nothing to do with when the Lusyanka was buried.

Proof that there was a cloaking device? I don't think there was ever any mention of one. Maybe not traffic directly over the 2 mountain peaks but being as how the whole planet is a city it would be surrounded by skyscrapers. Again the sher size (19 km or 11 miles) I don't recall the mountains being listed as being taller than that. And the proof about the traffic is in the movies of the constant multiple levels of traffic leaving and arriving. Even at night the planet has lots of traffic judging from the chase scene in episode 2. It reminds me of New York city even at night there are still plenty of cars on the road and corscant is just a big city with a population over a trillion and combine that with a size of super star destroyer descending it is very likely that the ship would have been scene. That would be like a ufo landing on the outskirts of NYC in more of the residential areas lots of people would see and hear it. There is no way a ship that size could be silent went descending.Then peole could record it like we record ufos and show them to the world via tv and internet. I would have to see definitive proof of cloaking device was put on the ship. And then what about the possibly of a nearby republic spy seeing? That is certainly interesting news to report,we know Sidious is a very very smart man, he would have to have known the possibility of republic spies seeing it. A super star destroyer is very valuable I wold not want my enemies to know I buried one and risk a sabotage operation. Seeing as how there is no proof a cloaking device being put on the ship it would label that out as possibility cause it would have been simple enough to say that it had a cloaking device and yet it didn't and the ship could be scene from miles and miles away from the city skyscrapers and ships. It is next to impossible for it not to have been seen by someone who shouldn't have.

Edit: I will try to get a response to your other post up tommorrow.