Superman vs. Wonder Woman

Originally posted by carver9
His main purpose was to dip her in the sun...why would he fly her to a planet?

As soon as she attack him with the knite, he slaps it away from her.

I didn't say that Clark was intended to fly her to Venus. He was apparently around Venus at the time of the scene. I'm going to go get confirmation about the writer's word now. Just to make sure we aren't wasting time.

And she stopped before they could get to Sol. My point is that I don't think Clark is being given a fair shake.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It wouldn't matter if she was menstruating. She can't take on Superman in a contest of power. He'll break her. Just overwhelmingly stronger.

As in, not really.

Pissed Superman had his hands full trying to break a barely holding back Wonder Woman. It'd get harder, much harder, if she was pissed as well.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman's about as overwhelmingly stronger, as Wonder Woman is overwhelmingly faster and overwhelmingly more skilled and has an overwhelming magic advantage.

As in, not really.

Pissed Superman had his hands full trying to break a barely holding back Wonder Woman. It'd get harder, much harder, if she was pissed as well.

So why does she get to be at her most effective but not him?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman's about as overwhelmingly stronger, as Wonder Woman is overwhelmingly faster and overwhelmingly more skilled and has an overwhelming magic advantage.

As in, not really.

Pissed Superman had his hands full trying to break a barely holding back Wonder Woman. It'd get harder, much harder, if she was pissed as well.

Even in sacrifice it was made clear he was on another level in terms of physical might. He broke her wrist by squeezing too hard, and temporarily knocked her out with the only punch he threw during the fight. I think the writer emphasized the gap in physical strength pretty well.

In short, if she had tried trading blows with Superman, chances are she would have died.

It doesn't matter if she's pissed or not. Ferocity won't make up the power gap between the two. I'm not arguing she won't be more effective in a battle if she's pissed, it'd be untrue. If nothing else, she'd go for fatal attacks more often etc. but it's irrelevant in the context that I'm debating in.

While I'm in the Wonder Woman gives a hard fight and has good odds camp, I'll say this much:

Supermans skills get downplayed as much as the magic weakness gets downplayed, and probably a bit more.. He's no Batman, but he isn't Solomon Grundy either,..

And here's a question: Can someone be a "skilled" brawler?

Can someone that's self taught, through experience, be as effective as someone that learns from a formal system?

Originally posted by cdtm
While I'm in the Wonder Woman gives a hard fight and has good odds camp, I'll say this much:

Supermans skills get downplayed as much as the magic weakness gets downplayed, and probably a bit more.. He's no Batman, but he isn't Solomon Grundy either,..

And here's a question: Can someone be a "skilled" brawler?

Can someone that's self taught, through experience, be as effective as someone that learns from a formal system?

Yes.

Brawling is a skill in of itself, imo.

I do think Superman's hand to hand skills are downplayed or ignored at times but that's a necessary sacrifice. Especially if you're going to have him fight someone like Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by cdtm
While I'm in the Wonder Woman gives a hard fight and has good odds camp, I'll say this much:

Supermans skills get downplayed as much as the magic weakness gets downplayed, and probably a bit more.. He's no Batman, but he isn't Solomon Grundy either,..

And here's a question: Can someone be a "skilled" brawler?

Can someone that's self taught, through experience, be as effective as someone that learns from a formal system?

Superman is a thinking man's brawler, always has been. Even when he's slugging it out, his mind is at work. There are plenty of examples of this.

Originally posted by -Pr-
So why does she get to be at her most effective but not him?

And when people insist that she was using nearly all her powers in a near overwhelming assault, I'd make some limp retort that Wonder Woman fights better when she's more precise or somesuch.

And when people argue that "Wonder Woman's all-out assault wasn't ultimately successful =/= it not being all-out because if it were, it would have worked" then I'd just randomly cite some vague writer interview.

Then when someone points out that all-out, raging bull Sacrifice/OWAW Superman would probably be a split against all-out, cool collected Elite/Darkseid-pwning Superman, then I'd go off-topic.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because I'd make the lame argument that a pissed, non-holding back, bloodlusted Wonder Woman wouldn't be optimal and would actually be fighting stupidly.

And when people insist that she was using nearly all her powers in a near overwhelming assault, I'd make some limp retort that Wonder Woman fights better when she's more precise or somesuch.

And when people argue that "Wonder Woman's all-out assault wasn't ultimately successful =/= it not being all-out because if it were, it would have worked" then I'd just randomly cite some vague writer interview.

Then when someone points out that all-out, raging bull Sacrifice/OWAW Superman would probably be a split against all-out, cool collected Elite/Darkseid-pwning Superman, then I'd go off-topic.

So you're just bitter, then?

But go ahead, dismiss the arguments you don't like.

Too bad all those pesky comics contradict you.

I'm tired of being on the other side of the fence with Rage...I'm not use to this sh**.

No one is arguing that Superman isn't skilled... He has the showings. Pressure points, martial arts...etc,etc. What I am saying is that if people are going to sit here and say that Wonder Woman can't give Clark a hell of a fight, they are clearly ignoring the character history. I'm not going to sit here and name everyone that she has fought, people that she has stalemated and high tier beings she has defeated but its pretty obvious some people are ignoring her history INCLUDING her power set.

Too difficult for you Carver?

No one ever argued that Wonder Woman can't give Superman a good tussle. I'm not really sure how someone can take that stance based on their history together. Barring a more higher end portrayal like OWAW, Superman should only get like around 7/10 but no fight is a one sided stomp or anything.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Even in sacrifice it was made clear he was on another level in terms of physical might. He broke her wrist by squeezing too hard, and temporarily knocked her out with the only punch he threw during the fight. I think the writer emphasized the gap in physical strength pretty well.

In short, if she had tried trading blows with Superman, chances are she would have died.

It doesn't matter if she's pissed or not. Ferocity won't make up the power gap between the two. I'm not arguing she won't be more effective in a battle if she's pissed, it'd be untrue. If nothing else, she'd go for fatal attacks more often etc. but it's irrelevant in the context that I'm debating in.

In short, if she wasn't holding back and going for the kill, chances are he would have died.

You underestimate Dian's strength while ignoring her speed/skill/magic advantages. It makes little sense. Broken wrist >>>>> shredded throat somehow tho. I get it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
So you're just bitter, then?

But go ahead, dismiss the arguments you don't like.

Too bad all those pesky comics contradict you.

Carver, restrain yourself.

Ultimately, I think most of agree that Superman wins the majority in the end. It's just there are different camps supporting to what degree and what sort of ease he'll have in doing so. Personally, I feel that Diana has the means to inflict more grievous harm on Kal more readily than vice versa, which can go a long way toward a battle between the two.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You win this week's KMC Award for exceeding the upper limits of irony. Let me know when it's clear that all-out cool collected Elite-pwning Superman is so much more effective than all-out raging bull Imperiex probes-wrecking Superman.

yes, continue to make snide, snippy comments at me. you've been doing it long enough, why stop now?

except that calm superman IS imperiex probe crushing superman. and IS elite beating superman.

not sacrifice superman, who was stated by the writer to be, and i quote "out of his mind with grief" and "not fighting smart".

an emotional superman < a calm superman. his feats reflect that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And a barely holding back Wonder Woman toppled him with a kick and cut his throat wide open. I think the writer emphasized that any gap wasn't wide enough for Wonder Woman to fight him toe-to-toe and actually bring him to his knees... while barely holding back.

In short, if she wasn't holding back and going for the kill, chances are he would have died.

You underestimate Dian's strength while ignoring her speed/skill/magic advantages. It makes little sense. Broken wrist >>>>> shredded throat somehow tho. I get it.

😬

Are you just looking for an argument or being purposefully dense? A bit of both?

I made it extremely clear that I was referring to raw power. If Diana trades blows with Superman straight up, she'll die. Thankfully she's intelligent enough to refrain from doing so and relies on her abilities to make the fight very competitive.

Not once did I deny that Diana would become more effective in combat if pissed off. I said the exact opposite. Even so, I disagree.

What the f*ck are you talking about?

Originally posted by -Pr-
yes, continue to make snide, snippy comments at me. you've been doing it long enough, why stop now?

except that calm superman IS imperiex probe crushing superman. and IS elite beating superman.

not sacrifice superman, who was stated by the writer to be, and i quote "out of his mind with grief" and "not fighting smart".

an emotional superman < a calm superman. his feats reflect that.

PLEASE.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
😬

Are you just looking for an argument or being purposefully dense? A bit of both?

I made it extremely clear that I was referring to raw power. If Diana trades blows with Superman straight up, she'll die. Thankfully she's intelligent enough to refrain from doing so and relies on her abilities to make the fight very competitive.

Not once did I deny that Diana would become more effective in combat if pissed off. I said the exact opposite. Even so, I disagree.

What the f*ck are you talking about?

But I guess what you're trying to say is, if you're trying to remove every single thing other than strength and focus only on strength than it'd be over. So you'd agree then, that Wonder Woman taking Superman in pure skill, nothing else, would have an overwhelming advantage that if it came down to pure skill straight up, he'd die. Same with magic advantage then? Nothing else, he just goes against the magical weapons straight up, he'd die?

That's the angle you're approaching this from because you want to emphasize that Superman's strength advantage doesn't get enough credit? I guess I didn't think to do that when I tried to do the same with Wonder Woman's magic advantage. Magic advantage straight-up, ignoring everything else = Superman dies. That's one way to do it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And I said Superman's about as overwhelmingly stronger, as Wonder Woman is overwhelmingly faster and overwhelmingly more skilled and has an overwhelming magic advantage.

But I guess what you're trying to say is, if you're trying to remove every single thing other than strength and focus only on strength than it'd be over. So you'd agree then, that Wonder Woman taking Superman in pure skill, nothing else, would have an overwhelming advantage that if it came down to pure skill straight up, he'd die. Same with magic advantage then? Nothing else, he just goes against the magical weapons straight up, he'd die?

That's the angle you're approaching this from because you want to emphasize that Superman's strength advantage doesn't get enough credit? I guess I didn't think to do that when I tried to do the same with Wonder Woman's magic advantage. Magic advantage straight-up, ignoring everything else = Superman dies. That's one way to do it.

Because those are all obviously the same? Superman is overwhelmingly stronger than Diana. She can't go toe to toe with him in a contest of might as their encounters show. There's nothing to debate in that area. I'm not sure why you think making stupid analogies somehow takes away from that.

If Diana and Clark fought in a contest of pure skill, she'll wreck him and you're free to make that claim in a vs. thread. I'm not sure why you have a problem with what I said. Do you not find it relevant enough? I agree that it's unlikely Diana will go toe to toe with Superman because she's intelligent but I don't f*cking give a shit. That doesn't affect my statement.

I made my stance pretty clear but you being you had to go and make it complicated. You might have had a point if I was using Clark's strength advantage to argue that this wouldn't be a competitive fight but I never made such claims. I said the exact opposite and yet you keep pretending like I'm not giving Diana credit or something.

The statement you quoted comes down to this: Superman is noticeably stronger than Wonder Woman.

It's really that simple. If you want, we can discuss how much of a gap exists between the two but what you're doing so far seems pointless. Are you going to make a point so or are you arguing for no reason other than to argue?