Do the Marvel and Dc multiverses exist within the same creation?

Originally posted by 123KID
so...the omniverse includes real life ?
makes sense
i remember this one night i was walking along the street and all of a sudden lampposts started leaping to life and the sky turned pink with light purple clouds that formed amusing shapes
i myself was now four-legged with a broomhandle for a head

but next thing i knew
i was me again and everything else was normal

so...it wasn't i ate the wrong kind of mushrooms
it was the Scarlet Witch's reality warp that effected the whole omniverse and thus me and the rest of you

don't you all remember ?

😛

idiot.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

All i'm saying is like it or lump it Marvel has spoken, the contrary argument presented is just opinion, it is a string of vaguely relevant scans accompanied by an argument telling us how Marvels assessment of their own comics is wrong and this comic fans assessment is the one to go by. 🤨

You're better than this Manjaro.

this i agree with..events are only referenced and relevant via crossovers

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Of course they're not. While they acknowledge that they exist within the same single creation of course Marvel writers when referring to omniverse aren't going to think of DC because [B]its only through these crossovers that they're allowed to depict that point , otherwise its like the other company doesn't exist and its done solely from a Marvel perspective. [/B]

but here is where i depart. the simple fact that Marvel comics was created by an individual who set out to create a comic company called "Marvel comics" and vice versa for a guy who set out to create "DC comics" is what makes the difference for me. the only link these entities share are canonical crossovers of which there are only two. Three if you wanna get technical cuz afterall the brothers were retconned to being the sentient avatars/Gaurdians of two respective megaverses.. MU also shares yet another link with Image via Invincible. and very loosley Savage Dragon and the only time these crossovers become relevant or even brought up specifically is in reference to that previous event....and have no lasting effect. sometimes they are never brought up again at all

if the two entities are one and the same how would you reconcile there being two supreme beings... TOAA and the Presence, who act in two different ways [insert joke about god acting in myterious ways]...DC is more religiously themed with there being a "God" and a "Heaven" who really did send his only begotten son to die for our sins while Marvel is more like "I am God and i create other beings who carry out specific functions for me"....BTW remember when in FF 511 Reed and his Peeps actually met TOAA who turned out to be depicted as any given writer at any given time who is working on any given story For Marvel comics ?...that was when Reed made his comment that he couldnt believe that "the wellspring of all reality came from a yellow stick" where as in DC the Presence has never been depicted beyond a truly myterious figure who truly acts in myterious ways.

Also think about the LT for a second....... now according to marvel.com in his Bio it says that "The Living Tribunal is an omnipotent entity which presides over all realities and universes , including the main Universe, Earth X, the Ultimate Universe, and all other alternate and potential realities" one needs to pay attention to those words carefully . whether one has faith in the site or not you must admit, that job description is pretty straight forward and doesnt really leave any room for debate or misinterpretation......it has also been established on panel that LT "Exists in all mutiverses simultaneously."which i would assume to be all the multiverse in creation....... aka the omniverse. 😬 Also on panel it makes mention of him having to consult his "hooded spectral ally" also in that same shot we see the Brothers dancing in LT's hand. ok so here is where im going with all this. the same way we clearly see the Spectre is basically the Presence's right hand man, and naturally we can argue the same relationship between LT and TOAA. if LT is established as being a unique being in creation who is above all other cosmics and exists everywhere at once.....barring copyright violations, why doesnt he exist in DC? meaning..why would there be another like himself in another plane of existence who he acknowledges not as an underling,puppet,servant,minion, vice chancellor, or his bed wench, but an ally , an ally he needed help from to complete a task.

to conclude . It is well established and accpeted that LT is basically the omniversal gorvernor of marvel. in fact we could say that he is the true omniversal Guardian...Starlight Citadel be damned...we have seen on panel that power artifacts from marvel did not work in DC and vice versa...we have seen on panel that LT considers the Spectre an ally, an equal if you will, not someone who is under him or lesser in power and prestige.

Long story short if we were to read into this shared omniverse concept the way it has been argued thus far, especially after all we have seen on panel and in handbooks that means that at best DC is a Megaverse that exists within Marvel, as one of the Brothers represents the totality of one company and of course we see them battling in LT's hand and at Worst DC is an alternate universe that exists within Marvel with just a yet to be disclosed numerical designation, seeing as how, LT who is supremely unique had to seek out a guy just like him, who baaaasically performs the same function he does to help him out with a situation. and most importantly seeing as how up until 2.5 yrs ago DC had just One Earth in One universe
both of these scenarios i refuse to accept

it harkens back to my original stance that MArvel has been the one creaming their undies about the omniverse..all mention,feelings, and graphical illustrations of the omniverse has been marvel's doing, its thier baby and they are the ones raising it.. all crossovers canon or not has been Marvel's thing. in fact the word omniverse wouldnt have came about in comics if it want for Gruenwald, who was working for.....you guessed it, Marvel comics...

Respectfully, and Objectively yours,

Jaroeuro

Originally posted by starlock
Stuart Vandal
OHOTMU Writer

He's already dropped Marvel.com since it no longer backs him. He'll be unable to argue the Handbooks support him when they restate the Omniverse definition in a few more months - though frankly, if he read the handbooks properly, he'd already know that, as recent bios continue to reference JLA/Avengers. But I'm sure as the handbooks state the Omniverse includes non-Marvel realities, he'll state the handbooks don't count either, and only "On-Panel" matters. So I'd like to draw your attention to what I'd already said in one of my posts in the Omniverse thread here.

Omniverse includes all realities - he accepts that definition, but insists that it can only be all Marvel realities. But Invincible (Image Comics) and Spider-Man (Marvel Comics) met in an "in-continuity," "on-panel" crossover. As I noted "That's not shown in any special mini-series which might be considered "out of continuity," it's shown in Invincible's own title and the very much in-continuity Marvel Team-Up. So Marvel and Image share an Omniverse." To expand on that last sentence - we've seen that when Invincible took a trip across several realities, Marvel (616) was one of them. Seen ON-PANEL as Mr. Master would like to put it. That means that by the definition of Omniverse ("includes all realities"😉 Image must be in the Omniverse that Marvel is in - they are, after all, both realities. But if a very-clearly non-Marvel reality is part of the Omniverse, then it can't be a Marvel Omniverse - QED. And that's without then going into the other realities Image has crossed over with "in-continuity" and "on-panel," which serve to demonstrate even more non-Marvel realities in the Omniverse.

It wouldn't surprise me if he still tries to discount this - but he can't have it both ways. He can't legitimately claim that only the panels he chooses count, especially when his choice of panels are open to other interpretation, while the Invincible-Spidey crossover isn't.

That is from Stuart Vandal OHOTMU Writer, who has had communications with me since i joined comixfans.com

I dont know why it is even up for debate anymore, but somtimes people can be stubborn

Originally posted by manjaro
i know for a momen there in between my rants it seemed like i was bandwagon jumping, but im not....i wasnt even going by MM's scans per se

this i agree with..events are only referenced and relevant via crossovers

but here is where i depart. the simple fact that Marvel comics was created by an individual who set out to create a comic company called "Marvel comics" and vice versa for a guy who set out to create "DC comics" is what makes the difference for me. the only link these entities share are [B]canonical crossovers of which there are only two. Three if you wanna get technical cuz afterall the brothers were retconned to being the sentient avatars/Gaurdians of two respective megaverses.. MU also shares yet another link with Image via Invincible. and very loosley Savage Dragon and the only time these crossovers become relevant or even brought up specifically is in reference to that previous event....and have no lasting effect. sometimes they are never brought up again at all

if the two entities are one and the same how would you reconcile there being two supreme beings... TOAA and the Presence, who act in two different ways [insert joke about god acting in myterious ways]...DC is more religiously themed with there being a "God" and a "Heaven" who really did send his only begotten son to die for our sins while Marvel is more like "I am God and i create other beings who carry out specific functions for me"....BTW remember when in FF 511 Reed and his Peeps actually met TOAA who turned out to be depicted as any given writer at any given time who is working on any given story For Marvel comics ?...that was when Reed made his comment that he couldnt believe that "the wellspring of all reality came from a yellow stick" where as in DC the Presence has never been depicted beyond a truly myterious figure who truly acts in myterious ways.

Also think about the LT for a second....... now according to marvel.com in his Bio it says that "The Living Tribunal is an omnipotent entity which presides over all realities and universes , including the main Universe, Earth X, the Ultimate Universe, and all other alternate and potential realities" one needs to pay attention to those words carefully . whether one has faith in the site or not you must admit, that job description is pretty straight forward and doesnt really leave any room for debate or misinterpretation......it has also been established on panel that LT "Exists in all mutiverses simultaneously."which i would assume to be all the multiverse in creation....... aka the omniverse. 😬 Also on panel it makes mention of him having to consult his "hooded spectral ally" also in that same shot we see the Brothers dancing in LT's hand. ok so here is where im going with all this. the same way we clearly see the Spectre is basically the Presence's right hand man, and naturally we can argue the same relationship between LT and TOAA. if LT is established as being a unique being in creation who is above all other cosmics and exists everywhere at once.....barring copyright violations, why doesnt he exist in DC? meaning..why would there be another like himself in another plane of existence who he acknowledges not as an underling,puppet,servant,minion, vice chancellor, or his bed wench, but an ally , an ally he needed help from to complete a task.

to conclude . It is well established and accpeted that LT is basically the omniversal gorvernor of marvel. in fact we could say that he is the true omniversal Guardian...Starlight Citadel be damned...we have seen on panel that power artifacts from marvel did not work in DC and vice versa...we have seen on panel that LT considers the Spectre an ally, an equal if you will, not someone who is under him or lesser in power and prestige.

Long story short if we were to read into this shared omniverse concept the way it has been argued thus far, especially after all we have seen on panel and in handbooks that means that at best DC is a Megaverse that exists within Marvel, as one of the Brothers represents the totality of one company and of course we see them battling in LT's hand and at Worst DC is an alternate universe that exists within Marvel with just a yet to be disclosed numerical designation, seeing as how, LT who is supremely unique had to seek out a guy just like him, who baaaasically performs the same function he does to help him out with a situation. and most importantly seeing as how up until 2.5 yrs ago DC had just One Earth in One universe
both of these scenarios i refuse to accept

it harkens back to my original stance that MArvel has been the one creaming their undies about the omniverse..all mention,feelings, and graphical illustrations of the omniverse has been marvel's doing, its thier baby and they are the ones raising it.. all crossovers canon or not has been Marvel's thing. in fact the word omniverse wouldnt have came about in comics if it want for Gruenwald, who was working for.....you guessed it, Marvel comics...

Respectfully, and Objectively yours,

Jaroeuro [/B]

Your opinion is based on an outdated perception my friend. The brothers are not megaverses. They are merely cosmic guardians/architects of realities, created and appointed by the Spectre and LT.

Even if they were megaverses as you incorrectly believed, they would not be alternate univereses within Marvel as Marvel has acknowleedged its collection of realities is a neighbour to DC's within a single omniverse and it also states that a major DC cosmic had equal say in the creation of the Brothers, therefore the Brothers would not solely belong to either company.

With regard to Marvel numbering all realities within the omniverse, that means nothing, because that is solely from Marvels persoective. What Roma for instance would call Earth 15671, a DC cosmic may simply call Earth S. Doesn't make them different realities, just means each comapny has a different reference for them.

A Marvel real world worker may have created the concept of an omniverse, but as such a concept has been accepted by comic book conpanies as canon, you must accept that as the case. DC agrees that its realities exist alongside Marvels. Marvel says the same and illustrates that point through crossovers and handbook entries.

No comic book fan can credibly argue that their assement of Marvel comics is more accurate than Marvels own assessment of their own comics.

Originally posted by manjaro
in fact the word omniverse wouldnt have came about in comics if it want for Gruenwald, who was working for.....you guessed it, Marvel comics...

Respectfully, and Objectively yours,

Jaroeuro

Neither company owns the concept.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your opinion is based on an outdated perception my friend. The brothers are not megaverses. They are merely cosmic guardians/architects of realities, created and appointed by the Spectre and LT.

Even if they were megaverses as you incorrectly believed, they would not be alternate univereses within Marvel as Marvel has acknowleedged its collection of realities is a neighbour to DC's within a single omniverse and it also states that a major DC cosmic had equal say in the creation of the Brothers, therefore the Brothers would not solely belong to either company.

With regard to Marvel numbering all realities within the omniverse, that means nothing, because that is solely from Marvels persoective. What Roma for instance would call Earth 15671, a DC cosmic may simply call Earth S. Doesn't make them different realities, just means each comapny has a different reference for them.

A Marvel real world worker may have created the concept of an omniverse, but as such a concept has been accepted by comic book conpanies as canon, you must accept that as the case. DC agrees that its realities exist alongside Marvels. Marvel says the same and illustrates that point through crossovers and handbook entries.

No comic book fan can credibly argue that their assement of Marvel comics is more accurate than Marvels own assessment of their own comics.

I was a bit drunk when i wrote this hence my spelling mistakes and why it might not have the most clarity.

You wouldn't believe how much concentration this took! 😱

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I was a bit drunk when i wrote this hence my spelling mistakes and why it might not have the most clarity.

You wouldn't believe how much concentration this took! 😱

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I was a bit drunk when i wrote this hence my spelling mistakes and why it might not have the most clarity.

You wouldn't believe how much concentration this took! 😱

well i guess i just wrote too much, and my thoughts got lost in my essay....my perception isnt outdated...i understand the brothers were retconned to something lesser. i said based on how the concept was been argued thus far, two scenarios could only be the logical outcome(at least for me)....both of which I rejected.

As for LT the point was to show that if he exists everywhere at once, and ready to exact judgement on any given universe or multiverse, he should exist in DC too. even if they have to illustrate him in a different form to avoid problems with intellectual property....if LT had never met the Spectre before, then id make the leap and say OK Spectre is obviously the disguise he wears when in DC space and that is how he looks from DC's perspective. the same way that Galactus looks different to every different race...if you catch my drift. again going by the pretext that he exists everywhere simultaneously and is unique

but we see that is not the case, LT and Spectre are not alternate versions of each other. simply put he is not an alternate version of himself. rather the two are completely different components for the cosmic consonance of thier own omniverse...yes i said omniverse 😉. They are peers, Allies in LT's own words. even tho technicially DC is just one multiverse i'll still give them the benefit of the doubt

To conclude . other than crossovers there is no set in stone link that bridges them. i dont deny that "Marvel has acknowleedged its collection of realities is a neighbour to DC." But its just that..... neighboring omniverses 🙂 thats not a hard conclusion for me to arrive at. forgetting about most of the scans of super teams and beings who tap into temporal energies tooting thier own horn about thier roles in the universe for a moment.....the lynch pin that kills the permalink argument is the fact that LT a unique being who carries out the dictates of his creator, and Spectre a unique being who carries out the dictates of his creator have met and consulted...they are allies. how would you reconcile there being two clearly unique beings with the same round-a-about duties existing in the one time/space...unless there was....you know....two also, i never meant that Gruenwald invented omniverse for the sake of marvel, but its obvious, thats where he chose to let loose with it

-Jaro

Originally posted by manjaro
well i guess i just wrote too much, and my thoughts got lost in my essay....my perception isnt outdated...i understand the brothers were retconned to something lesser. i said based on how the concept was been argued thus far, two scenarios could only be the logical outcome(at least for me)....both of which I rejected.

As for LT the point was to show that if he exists everywhere at once, and ready to exact judgement on any given universe or multiverse, he should exist in DC too. even if they have to illustrate him in a different form to avoid problems with intellectual property....if LT had never met the Spectre before, then id make the leap and say OK Spectre is obviously the disguise he wears when in DC space and that is how he looks from DC's perspective. the same way that Galactus looks different to every different race...if you catch my drift. again going by the pretext that he exists everywhere simultaneously and is unique

but we see that is not the case, LT and Spectre are not alternate versions of each other. simply put he is not an alternate version of himself. rather the two are completely different components for the cosmic consonance of thier own omniverse...yes i said omniverse 😉. They are peers, [B]Allies in LT's own words. even tho technicially DC is just one multiverse i'll still give them the benefit of the doubt[/B]

Why would LT not being an alternate dimensional counterpart of Spectre support the opinion that DC and Marvel aren't within the same omniverse? 😕

LT is only associated with Marvels collection of realities. He exists everywhere at once within Marvel realities. Its never been stated that he exists everywhere within the omniverse, i don't know from what source you've misinterpreted that notion.

Originally posted by manjaro
[B]To conclude . other than crossovers there is no set in stone link that bridges them. i dont deny that "Marvel has acknowleedged its collection of realities is a neighbour to DC." But its just that..... neighboring omniverses 🙂 thats not a hard conclusion for me to arrive at. forgetting about most of the scans of super teams and beings who tap into temporal energies tooting thier own horn about thier roles in the universe for a moment.....the lynch pin that kills the permalink argument is the fact that LT a unique being who carries out the dictates of his creator, and Spectre a unique being who carries out the dictates of his creator have met and consulted...they are allies. how would you reconcile there being two clearly unique beings with the same round-a-about duties existing in the one time/space...unless there was....you know....two also, i never meant that Gruenwald invented omniverse for the sake of marvel, but its obvious, thats where he chose to let loose with it

-Jaro [/B]

Marvel has stated there is only one omniverse and that within it are its collection of realities and those of other companies. Therefore your opinion that Marvels realities compose an omniverse themselves are a direct contradiction of this and as such is conclusively not the case, regardless of how dumb you think Marvels perspective is. Despite how many questions and doubts their perspective might arouse in your mind.

If you wish to have that opinion, that is your prerogative, but understand that it is officially rejected, therefore in a debate where we're attempting to uncover the truth, without a direct statement from either company to counter the one i've presented, such an opinion whilst interesting to hear is conclusively untrue.

Marvel has stated that copyright is what limits regular interaction on panel between the two companies properties. You have an explanation for the lack of interaction, therefore an opinion that the two companies have two separate omniverses based on a lack of regular interaction between the two companies is unjustified and similarly rejected by Marvel.

With regard to your point about LT and Spectre, the answer to that is obvious. In real world terms we know the two companies were created at different times and their continuities have been created over the years independently of each other, however in recent years a connection has been forged between the two. Some crossovers have been acknowledged as canon and their collections of realities have been stated to exist as part of ONE omniverse. As aforementioned when such a change occurs to continuity we readers are to accept it as if it was always the case.

This recent change brings many questions to mind as you have demonstrated, questions we comic book readers can never know the answers to until we're informed by either company,if we're informed at all.

However such questions do NOT enable you to renounce and disregard what has been established as canon by both companies, it is what it is like it or lump it, as i said before we do not dictate canon, we are just presented with it. These questions allow us comic book readers to come together on forums like this one and hypothesize on possible answers, (e.g Could TOAA and Presence be different aspects of the same being?)but that is all.

Regardless of what personal conclusions we reach, regardless of how we think things should be, Marvel and DC's perspectives are what they are, until THEY say different.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why would LT not being an alternate dimensional counterpart of Spectre support the opinion that DC and Marvel aren't within the same omniverse? 😕

LT is only associated with Marvels collection of realities. He exists everywhere at once within Marvel realities. Its never been stated that he exists everywhere within the omniverse, i don't know from what source you've misinterpreted that notion.

look i know im not the fellow who normally posts a gaggle of scans, and everyone hates this by now but bare with me here for a moment .....I misinterpret nothing. here in a thought bubble it sums up the idea that the omniverse is an unending number of alternate realities and that it is a collection of all possibilties.

here is where it says on panel that LT exists in all multiverses simultaneously. note it said all, not a few or some or a choice selection, but all ....so in other words if he exists simultaneously in every single universe in every multiverse sooner or later all those realites are gonna tally up to the omniverse. this is basic intuitive reasoning here. and remember, marvel was the one who said there is only one omniverse.

On LT's bio on Marvel.com, a direct qoute from it says "The Living Tribunal is an omnipotent entity which presides over all realities and universes, including the main Universe, Earth X, the Ultimate Universe, and all other alternate and potential realities ."

One Last item about LT. right here its says plain and straight that he doesnt have any counterparts in other realties

To conclude... here is where im going with all this...no more scans after this i swear 😉

None of this can be reconciled unless each comic company has ther own omniverse. wasnt it sherlock holmes who said it best when he said "once you have eliminated all possiblities, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth."? marvel says it right there in the above scan that there is only one omniverse. and gave a defintion for it. it says no where that "its collection of realities and those of other companies " like u claimed.

so unless we are gonna start discrediting bio entries on marvel.com or official handbooks, we already know that LT presides over all realites, not just a select collection. all of them, thats his tag. so if all realties are in question and you want to include all others then DC and anybody else would be under his umbrella. especially if we are going by what Marvel's defintion of an omniverse is and what LT's role is. But that train of thought all goes to shit when the Spectre shows up and sees LT already fulfilling the right-man-handship of the Creator.

Lastly, going by strict definition DC isnt an omniverse, but rather a single multiverse. Wildstorm used to have its own multiverse but it has been retconned to being a single universe...Earth 50 to be exact. again with the above scan in the very last sentence it gives a defintion for what a Megaverse is...which is a collection of associated realms from different multiverses . what that means is:

Possibilty#1. Though DC has a slew of associated realms like Heaven, hell, limbo, shadowverse, Darkworld, mirrorverse, 4th world, Dreamscape, Dimensions 1-9(presumably there are more but 9 is the farthest they have shown on panel) the simple fact that it is a singular multiverse eliminates it from being a megaverse. after the brothers retcon megaverses only exist in marvel

Possibility#2. The simple fact that Both LT and Spectre are singular beings who are equal in power pending the mandate of each one's creator and have met and consulted with each other proves that neither are alternate versions of one another. this elimates DC from being an Alternate or possible reality for we know that LT doesnt have any counterparts and we know point blank that his function is to preside over all realities not a special collection of them ...all of them. and all realities = the omniverse..there is no getting around that. so DC could not be included in the same omniversal space and not be presided over by LT. so the only possible truth is that all companies have thier own thing going

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT is only associated with Marvels collection of realities. He exists everywhere at once within Marvel realities.

you see this is exactly what im talking about. youre making my argument for me. you cant have it both ways guy. you clearly acknowledge and accept that marvel has its own collection of realities. and that DC has its own but you feel that they perpetually share the same omniverse. it doesnt make any sense for them to be a part of something yet separate from it at the same time. Based on the criteria that marvel has defined for what makes up the omniverse or any others couldnt be inlcuded.

euro

Stuart Vandal
Answering the points Manjaro raises:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manjaro
here in a thought bubble it sums up the idea that the omniverse is an unending number of alternate realities and that it is a collection of all possibilties.

Stuart Vandal
The scan is from Earth X and Merlyn's funeral. In and off itself, it does not support his belief of a separate Marvel Omniverse. "Non-Marvel realities must surely be included in "all possibilities."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manjaro
here is where it says on panel that LT exists in all multiverses simultaneously. note it said all, not a few or some or a choice selection, but all ....so in other words if he exists simultaneously in every single universe in every multiverse sooner or later all those realites are gonna tally up to the omniverse. this is basic intuitive reasoning here. and remember, marvel was the one who said there is only one omniverse.

Stuart vandal
Remember first what I said about individual characters making sweeping statements about "this affects everything!" The speaker (Kosmos or Nova? Can't be sure from the scan) making the statement to Kubik is capable of being wrong (Nova especially, as she would just be parroting what she heard from either Reed Richards or Galactus, not fully understanding what they explained to her). So her statement may not be strictly accurate. Even if it is accurate, that doesn't mean anything, other than that we haven't seen the Tribunal in DC's universe, or that we have seen the Tribunal wearing another form and not recognised it.

Originally Posted by Manjaro
On LT's bio on Marvel.com, a direct qoute from it says

Stuart Vandal
No point going further than this. Despite the moderators' best efforts, Marvel.com is still a wiki, so you can't take what it says as gospel, unless it is on a protected page that only staff / moderators can alter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manjaro
One Last item about LT. right here its says plain and straight that he doesnt have any counterparts in other realties

Stuart Vandal
The quote from the Handbook here has been misinterpreted, as Manjaro has misunderstood what we mean when we say someone has no counterparts in other realities. If you look at Peter Parker in different realities, you will find he has many versions of himself - counterparts - all sharing some similarities, but all differing in various ways. This is true of the vast majority of beings. However, a small handfull of individuals have no counterparts. There's only the one of them, so no matter which reality you might encounter them in, it's the same individual. Barring impersonators, if you see the Living Tribunal in Reality-616 and then you see him in Reality-310, it's the same being. That's not to say the LT will always look the same or use the same name; he's powerful enough to change his appearance if he chooses. But his being a singular entity is why his appearance in Adventures of X-Men is "canon" for him.

Manjaro includes another Handbook scan, where we stated "The Omniverse is the collection of every single universe, dimension, etc." and yet somehow tries to argue that this must mean Marvel has its own Omniverse. No. "Every single" means EVERY SINGLE, and that has to include other companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manjaro
it says no where that "its collection of realities and those of other companies "

Stuart Vandal
It's never going to say "and those of other companies" in a Handbook. Handbooks are written as if the profile writer is an impartial observer to real events - the closest analogy I can think of is how the Watcher might record things - and as such, we'll never refer to "other companies" and more than we would say "in the Marvel universe" in a profile. But I'll repeat again, if there is "only one omniverse" then how can there be an argument for a Marvel Omniverse which is separate from the DC Omniverse or the Image Omniverse.

Originally Posted by Manjaro
Both LT and Spectre are singular beings who are equal in power pending the mandate of each one's creator and have met and consulted with each other proves that neither are alternate versions of one another.

Stuart Vandal
Yes, they've met, and no, they aren't alternate versions of one another. LT at least doesn't have alternate versions. However they don't fulfill exactly the same role either, so even if LT's mandate included the DC multiverse, that doesn't cause any real conflict. The "Creator" can have more than one "right-hand man" if he wants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manjaro
we know that LT doesnt have any counterparts and we know point blank that his function is to preside over all realities not a special collection of them

Stuart Vandal
We know he has no alternate versions of himself - that's what the Handbooks mean by counterparts. That doesn't mean he can't have counterparts in the sense of "work colleagues who do the same job in other parts of the company (for company, read Omniverse)" or counterparts in the sense of "assistants who look after assigned portions of the Omniverse so that the LT doesn't have to handle every little matter" (in fact, there's some indication that LT does delegate when he can). Either of which would account for beings who appear to share his mandate.

As for the "all realities," that's already been covered above - the meaning of "all" depends on who is speaking, and is not always (in fact rarely) accurately applied by individual characters within the comics, at least in this context.

ok i dont even understand the context of this...i was responding directly to GS..which i did in full detail. taking snippets of my posts and presenting to another individual in another forum doesnt sit too well with me. especially since the little bits and peices used make me seem repetitive. but oh well

The Marvel multiverse is the name given to describe all of the marvel realities that share the traditional hierarchy of the abstracts. Some writers consider each of these realities to be a multiverse unto themselves, why? Because look at Eternity 616 for example, associated with him you have other dimensions such as Asgard, Mephistos realm, the Negative Zone, hyperspace where the Celestials come from and others. All of those alternate dimensions associated with Eternity 616. However other Eternitys have their same versions of Asgard, Negative Zone etc associated with them however they are still generally deemed universes and all of them together are deemed the Marvel multiverse.

The Beyonder even stated the point on panel:

The point has been stated a number of times on panel.

Dimensions are universes:

Many universes within the so called Marvel multiverse are composed of multiple dimensions themselves:

Because the dimensions share the same cosmic hierarchy they are grouped into a single cluster(hence why one of these multi dimensional continuums are still referred to as a universe) and each of these clusters is LT’s responsibility.

This basically proves the point that Marvels universes are pseudo multiverses referred to as universes and yet all of them together are still referred to as the Marvel multiverse and it is this that LT is stated to be in charge of.

This all explains why you will get the occasional writer referring to "the multiverses" such as featured in your scan, yet despite that all of those realms are deemed The Marvel multiverse.

If you look at the 06 LT you have presented, it doesn’t talk of multiverses, it talks of LT’s role within the multiverse, it states that LT has no counterpart not in all of the multiverses, but in the multiverse.

It seems your single scan followed the idea that each of these alternate realities we are given a glimpse of via publications such as What If’s are multiverses themselves, pseudo multiverses. That explains that comic scans statement.

LT’s presence and role has primarily been limited to the Marvel multiverse that is his domain.

When he decided to act outside of the multiverse, he called on the aid of the Spectre from DC’s multiverse and together they created the Brothers.

I see the LT and Spectre as peers in very separate multiverses.

As I said before, Marvel and DC are separate companies. The companies have worked independently of each other for many decades before a recent decision to bring unity to the two continuities was made.

Marvel and DC have acknowledged that there is a single omniverse and that both of their properties co-exist within it, however despite that real world legal matters prevent the two continuities from fully combining, therefore while it is canon that the two are within the same creation, the point is only ever demonstrated through carefully planned crossovers.

So you have the two companies and their continuities emerging and developing independently for decades and then suddenly the top brass decide to combine the two company’s properties. Of course there are going to be a multitude of incompatibilities.

Even after the link was formed the fact that legal issues limit comic book interaction and leave the two continuities developing independently of each other mean that such incompatibilities are likely never going to be officially explained away with a satisfactory answer. As such we are left with a number of queries such as, what is the relationship between the Presence and TOAA if Marvel and DC say they exist in the same creation, yet Marvel says TOAA created the omniverse?

Not knowing the answers to those questions does NOT give a comic book fan the right to disregard what we ARE given the answers to. Marvel and DC have agreed that their properties are contained within one omniverse, we know why there are incompatibilities between the roles of each separate companies canonically joint properties, therefore all we as readers can do is accept them and if we wish, come on forums like this and speculate and hypothesize about possible ways to reconcile such incompatibilities.

Both companies have spoken. Until they release subsequent statements or works which state the two properties are within their own separate omniverses, then as previously stated, the link remains, regardless of any comic fans opinion to the contrary. That is what needs to be understood here.

Brought to you by GS 😱

Originally posted by manjaro
ok i dont even understand the context of this...i was responding directly to GS..which i did in full detail. taking snippets of my posts and presenting to another individual in another forum doesnt sit too well with me. especially since the little bits and peices used make me seem repetitive. but oh well

I didn't find you repetitive at all, in fact i thought your argument was well structured. 🙂

Just to summarize, your misinterpretation that LT's role is omniversal and that he himself exists within all realities of the omniverse was incorrect and flawed because it was based solely on one scan which used the reference "multiverses".

Using this single reference, supposition came into play and the aforementioned misinterpretation arose.

In a multitude of sources it has been established over the years that a large number if not all alternate realities within Marvels multiverse can be deemed pseudo multiverses themselves, which is why you will get references such as "multiverses" even though LT is said to watch over the Marvel multiverse.

So with that point out of the way, it just comes down to the fact that the two companies have forged a link and shown that their collections of realities exist within the same single omniverse.

Regardless of how stupid you think that idea is, they have spoken, that is the case. They are two independent companies whose properties have been similarly independent for decades, so its common sense that to suddenly forge a link will highlight the fact that there are incompatible elements in each continuity.

However all we can do is read on and hope for answers, or we can speculate about possible ones. However we need to acknowledge that such speculation is JUST THAT and whatever the companies present to us as canon is similarly JUST THAT.

Thanks for your time

-GS

can't we just agree to look at the omniverse as a venn diagram of sorts, with marvel and dc and whatever other companies' stories existing at ends of the grouping, and only mild spillover happening in the middle?

Originally posted by lando005
i've been swayed back and forth on this matter
this may be a nail in the coffin as they say
but i am interested in masters rebuttal for this

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=474708&pagenumber=19

And the new Comixfan responses on this page
seem to be coming from a person that's #1. not sure what they're talking about,
and #2. homie is commenting and dismissing On Panel depictions,
yet, homie hasn't even opened up the book.

Like thinking Nova is Kosmos. 😂

All I see is this person putting aside everything that's on panel and in offical bios,
with a secondary explanation that isn't conclusive, concrete or sensible,
because it contradicts everything we've been reading on panel for years.

So that's my response, and final one concerning said person. 🙂

..........................................................................................

If he's really who is, and has Marvel juice,
tell em to make an official entry in the next set of Handbooks,
and tell em to get a Marvel Writer to confirm it On Panel,
otherwise it's just a rogue writer's words against, On Panel illustrations,
On Panel statements by characters and Writers,
Official Bios confirming said events concerning the entire Omniverse.

That's all.

Originally posted by Juntai
Gruenwald wrote the stuff about the Omniverse long before joining Marvel.

Neither company owns the concept.

While other companies, mention it what? ... ever?

I know DC mentioned it once.

Marvel had bio entries, for nearly Two decades referencing the Omniverse in bios.
Nearly 30 years stating it, and invloving it in stories, On Panel.
Marvel literally has illustrated what it looks like (in the physical sense)
by depicting the entire Omniverse (space/time) On Panel
across more than several Marvel titles.
Marvel has published stories where the entire Omniverse has been damaged,
and a few times completely destroyed and re-created.

And I agree with that, Marvel may not have the right to the concept,
but it seems that only Marvel implements the Omniverse in stories.
The entire Omniverse that is.

We agree Wanda did not tear DC to pieces with the Chaos Wave,
so then,
what Omniverse was it she tore to pieces?

Not debating this with ya Jun, just generalizing the paradox.

Originally posted by starlock

Stuart vandal

Remember first what I said about individual characters making sweeping statements about "this affects everything!" The speaker (Kosmos or Nova? Can't be sure from the scan) making the statement to Kubik is capable of being wrong (Nova especially, as she would just be parroting what she heard from either Reed Richards or Galactus, not fully understanding what they explained to her). So her statement may not be strictly accurate.

... Not to mention that he's again, just maiing stuff up as he goes along.

None of this is fact, I noticerd this,
and the rest of his replies are coming straight from his own perspective,
ignoring or simply rejecting everything that's taken place On Panel.

This speech, how is it relevant to Kubik or Kosmos?

Tell our mystery man over at "Comixfan" to atleast read the issue,
before accusing characters in the story as being "wrong" ... 😬

Originally posted by starlock

Stuart vandal

Even if it is accurate, that doesn't mean anything