Comic Book Mythbuster

Mythbusting the mythbust - Superman lifting an object while flying is attributed to his flight and not his strength.

Originally posted by Philosophía
All Juntai was agreeing upon was that during the Byrne era, what you posted concerning something other than his strength being at work when he lifted things while flying was true but, like I said, most of what was written during that era was either retconned or completly pulled out of continuity which Juntai also agrees upon.

It would be easier for me to just prove that period is out of continuity, but, if you really want proof directly contradicting that.. I'll elaborate on why it has changed. Here's another scan besides the one you posted where Superman clearly states that that while flying he moves objects by sheer force of will and not by strength. (see how generous I am, giving you arguments uhuh)

Would a scan like this, for example, prove that he still needs his strength moving things even after flying ? (pre Dos/ZH)

No? How about something even better ?

"With my super-strength back..."

Want something [b]even better ? Here not only is it stated that he uses super-strength while flying and moving an object by the writer but due to fluctuations in his super-strength he actually goes through the plane.

Truth is, besides some comments made in a few comics from the Byrne era, the 'super strength not being needed while flying' stuff hasn't really been accepted as a part of Superman's abilities (even some writers from that period seemed to ignore this) and especially after the ZH period it is made quite clear that's not the case. [/B]

Originally posted by Philosophía
[b]Mythbusting the mythbust - Superman lifting an object while flying is attributed to his flight and not his strength. [/B]

Originally posted by darthgoober
What do you mean what does it represent? His strength is turned off and he's still able to pull that ship through flight. He also comments that there's something other than strength at work when he lifts something while flying. Thus lifting feats while fly AREN'T feats of pure strength for Supes. Strength might help in the effort, but the fact that there's something else at work means that those type's of feats aren't valid evidence of his being physically stronger than someone like the Hulk or Thor. To make that kind of determination you have to go by strength feats that AREN't aided by flight.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=301406&pagenumber=36#post11942625

Originally posted by Philosophía
Your argument was entirely dependent on the scans from the Byrne era where it's stated that he moves objects not by strength, but by willpower, similar to how he flies, and thus anything he moves while flying is not due to his strength, but due to his flying ability. I proved, using scans from later instances, that part to be wrong.

Your stance wasn't "I've never contended that strength doesn't factor into it, just that his flight does as well.", that's just something you put up now, because it was entirely based on the scans from that period, which state what I've written above. Now, once those scans have been nullified, you, heh, retcon your stance into something it never was, ignoring what your stance was initially/the scans and start assuming/speculating that flying plays a part in his strength feats, despite this having nothing to do with what we were initially discussing.

So you see, since your stance was based on those scans, it was pretty much "what he moves while flying has nothing to do with his strenght" while your current stance is "flying plays a part in his strength feats while in the air, so they don't count".

Anyhow..

...

Copying/pasting things from other threads is pretty .. funny. 😂

Originally posted by Philosophía
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=301406&pagenumber=36#post11942625

...

Copying/pasting things from other threads is pretty .. funny. 😂

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11175620#post11175620

And you'll see that this statement...

Originally posted by darthgoober
What do you mean what does it represent? His strength is turned off and he's still able to pull that ship through flight. He also comments that there's something other than strength at work when he lifts something while flying. Thus lifting feats while fly AREN'T feats of pure strength for Supes. Strength might help in the effort, but the fact that there's something else at work means that those type's of feats aren't valid evidence of his being physically stronger than someone like the Hulk or Thor. To make that kind of determination you have to go by strength feats that AREN't aided by flight.

Was made exactly 1 hour and 21 minutes after I busted the myth 8 months ago. And even when I originally busted the myth an hour and a half previously, I never said that strength didn't factor into it. I just said...

Originally posted by darthgoober
"Supes moving *insert large object* while flying is a major strength feat"

http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=advsupes43617yl7.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=advsupes43618cr4.jpg
First panel of the second scan...
"And as I discovered some time ago, when I lift an object while I'm flying, there's something other than strength at work."

Myth busted.

You didn't catch me changing my argument, you jumped in on me pointing out an incomplete argument to leo. Me and leo go way back so I didn't feel the need to go into a lot of detail because I knew an all out debate wouldn't be necessary for leo to bring up feats that were unassisted by flight rather than feat that were flight aided 😬 .

Originally posted by Philosophía
You don't seem to understand what is wrong with your stance. The Byrne era and the scans from that era, the very scans on which you base your entire argument clearly state that when flying, he moves objects due to willpower and [b]not strength. Thus since you support those scans, it means you agree with them in the sense that strength has nothing to do with moving/lifting things while flying. Your later stance, your attempted backdoor with the 'it's both strength and flying' post is not in concordance with what the scans which form your entire argument say, and it's more in line with "if they bring proof of him using his super-strength, I'll say it's a combination of both, eventough the scans clearly beg to differ"

Let's see some facts.

*In the Byrne era, Superman's lifting ability while in the air was attributed to his flight/will power and not due to strength.
*As I've shown, after this period, it was made quite clear that he uses super-strength/physicall force in order to move objects even while in air, and thus whatever stance you'd try to make using those scans, it still wouldn't apply to Superman after that period.

True ? [/B]

Originally posted by darthgoober
As you can see by the fact that my quote stating my actual stance on the matter happening just over an hour and 20 minutes after I originally busted the myth, I'm not adjusting my argument. Follow this link...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11175620#post11175620

And you'll see that this statement...

Was made exactly 1 hour and 21 minutes after I busted the myth 8 months ago. And even when I originally busted the myth an hour and a half previously, I never said that strength didn't factor into it. I just said...

You didn't catch me changing my argument, you jumped in on me pointing out an incomplete argument to leo. Me and leo go way back so I didn't feel the need to go into a lot of detail because I knew an all out debate wouldn't be necessary for leo to bring up feats that were unassisted by flight rather than feat that were flight aided 😬 .

Originally posted by Philosophía
You don't seem to understand what is wrong with your stance. The Byrne era and the scans from that era, the very scans on which you base your entire argument clearly state that when flying, he moves objects due to willpower and [b]not strength. Thus since you support those scans, it means you agree with them in the sense that strength has nothing to do with moving/lifting things while flying. Your later stance, your attempted backdoor with the 'it's both strength and flying' post is not in concordance with what the scans which form your entire argument say, and it's more in line with "if they bring proof of him using his super-strength, I'll say it's a combination of both, eventough the scans clearly beg to differ"

Let's see some facts.

*In the Byrne era, Superman's lifting ability while in the air was attributed to his flight/will power and not due to strength.
*As I've shown, after this period, it was made quite clear that he uses super-strength/physicall force in order to move objects even while in air, and thus whatever stance you'd try to make using those scans, it still wouldn't apply to Superman after that period.

True ? [/B]

My scans in no way state that when he moves something it's due to willpower alone and that strength is never an issue, just that there's something else at work. That doesn't mean that whatever he's talking about is the ONLY thing at work, I've always taken it to mean ALSO at work. And as for your scan, do you have any idea how often phrases like "through willpower alone..." get thrown around in comics? A lot. I could probably find a dozen scans saying something similar of Captain America when he's pushing his strength to the max, but it doesn't mean that his muscles aren't doing the work because he's "willing" whatever he's doing to happen. It's called colorful writing. Don't get me wrong because I can totally understand some people interpreting the scans that way, but that was never the interpretation that I myself was espousing.

And my argument is supported by more than just those scans, according to Juntai(who's not prone to lying that I know of) Supes's powers are(not were) often attributed to telekinesis of some form. Now if you can get Juntai in here to say that he was wrong or misspoke and that Supes's powers have NEVER been attributed to anything like tk since the Byrne's day I'll totally accept that because as I pointed out Juntai's a pretty strait shooter and isn't one to lie.

Your problem is that you're so intent on trying to make me look bad that you're grasping at straws to discredit my argument and stance on the matter. That's probably why you seem so pissed now that I've proven your accusations of my changing my argument to be false. But I never changed my argument and I still haven't, Supes lifting/pulling/pushing feats while flying aren't invalid because his strength isn't a factor, they're invalid because we don't know how much of it is physical strength and how much of it is his "flight power". It's an inconsistently portrayed phenomenon, Juntai even said as much. As is, the way I see it...

Facts.

1. Evidence has been posted that Supes's flight IS a factor in his pulling/pushing/lifting things while flying.
2. No evidence has been posted that Supes's flight power ISN'T a factor in his pulling/pushing/lifting things while flying.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You think I posted this scan out of generosity ?

Heh.

No, it's a scan from the same period from where your scan is from, by the same author, to further elaborate how Superman's power worked in that era.

Superman: The Lab seems to have lost almost all of its weight now that I'm flying rather than using pure muscle power. Evidently, I fly objects the same way I fly myself -- [b]by sheer force of will, not by strength

Superman's powers, as my scan show, no longer work this way as he uses his super-strength thus, since these scans no longer apply, anything trying to be proven concerning Superman by using them is not valid.

Like I said, and be carefull when I say this because I've said it enough already, if you base your entire stance on what was established during that era, then your current stance with both strength and flying playing a factor in him lifting objects while in air is not correct because it is clearly said that strength is not a factor.

So in essence, the scans which you used in this thread to try to discredit Superman's feats while in flight, is baseless since the scans you used don't apply and even your stance using them is incorrect.

As for your facts:

1.That evidence is no longer in continuity/doesn't apply to current Superman, as I've proven.
2.It's not my job to prove it's not a factor, it's yours to prove that it is.

What the hell is this, an ego battle ? I'm not trying to discredit you, you're doing a good job by yourself. I already proved my case, that the scans you used to try to discredit Superman are no longer applicable to current Superman and thus, you have absolutley nothing to base your current stance on. It's not that hard really. I don't want to continue this 'I have to say something!!1' ego-fueled driven bullshit, so if you want, we can pm Juntai, Raoul, or whoever to give their views on what was written up until now. [/B]

Originally posted by Philosophía
You think I posted this scan out of generosity ?

Heh.

No, it's a scan from the same period from where your scan is from, by the same author, to further elaborate how Superman's power worked in that era.

Superman: The Lab seems to have lost almost all of its weight now that I'm flying rather than using pure muscle power. Evidently, I fly objects the same way I fly myself -- [b]by sheer force of will, not by strength [/B]

Originally posted by Philosophía
Superman's powers, as my scan show, no longer work this way as he uses his super-strength thus, since these scans no longer apply, anything trying to be proven concerning Superman by using them is not valid.

Like I said, and be carefull when I say this because I've said it enough already, if you base your entire stance on what was established during that era, then your current stance with both strength and flying playing a factor in him lifting objects while in air is not correct because it is clearly said that strength is not a factor.

So in essence, the scans which you used in this thread to try to discredit Superman's feats while in flight, is baseless since the scans you used don't apply and even your stance using them is incorrect.

As for your facts:

1.That evidence is no longer in continuity/doesn't apply to current Superman, as I've proven.
2.It's not my job to prove it's not a factor, it's yours to prove that it is.

No it just means that his strength is now a factor, it doesn't mean that the effect of whatever force used in flight has been completely removed. If you're going to argue that something has been completely changed about a character, you need evidence of the things that have changed. Your scans definitely indicate that Supes's powers have changed, but we can't throw out everything from Byrne because not ALL of his idea's have been thrown out(as made evident by the fact that Supes's powers are often portrayed as being similar to telekinesis). They didn't recton out another force at work, they rectonned out his strength NOT being at work. We know his strength plays a part now... great. My scans still show that other force at work and that's further supported by later authors with instances of his powers being telekinetic in nature. They're not as good a proof as the more recent scans(which I'll start using as I'm pointed their way by a Supes fan or I stumble onto them myself), but they're still valid evidence of my side of the argument.

Originally posted by Philosophía
What the hell is this, an ego battle ? I'm not trying to discredit you, you're doing a good job by yourself. I already proved my case, that the scans you used to try to discredit Superman are no longer applicable to current Superman and thus, you have absolutley nothing to base your current stance on. It's not that hard really. I don't want to continue this 'I have to say something!!1' ego-fueled driven bullshit, so if you want, we can pm Juntai, Raoul, or whoever to give their views on what was written up until now.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Your argument was entirely dependent on the scans from the Byrne era where it's stated that he moves objects not by strength, but by willpower, similar to how he flies, and thus anything he moves while flying is not due to his strength, but due to his flying ability. I proved, using scans from later instances, that part to be wrong.

Your stance wasn't "I've never contended that strength doesn't factor into it, just that his flight does as well.", that's just something you put up now, because it was entirely based on the scans from that period, which state what I've written above. Now, once those scans have been nullified, you, heh, retcon your stance into something it never was, ignoring what your stance was initially/the scans and start assuming/speculating that flying plays a part in his strength feats, despite this having nothing to do with what we were initially discussing.

So you see, since your stance was based on those scans, it was pretty much "what he moves while flying has nothing to do with his strenght" while your current stance is "flying plays a part in his strength feats while in the air, so they don't count".

Anyhow..

...discrediting? It seems to me that the implication was that I was lying and backpeddling about my original stance("Now, once those scans have been nullified, you, heh, retcon your stance into something it never was"😉 but then again I guess maybe I'm the only one who took it that way 🙄 .

Originally posted by Philosophía
Since I posted that scan I logically assumed that you read it, and thus when you started making arguments that weren't in line with what was presented during that period, and yet saying that the scans support you, I called you on it. I wasn't discrediting you since .. that was exactly what you were doing.

And now, funnily enough, you're accusing me of discrediting you and yet, you're the one who, eventough I clearly proved that Superman's power don't work the way they used to during the Byrne period you're going "hey, I'm just going to assume flight is a big part until he's showing me proof that it doesn't". [b]I did provide proof that they changed, drastically, since it went from 'I move objects while in air using willpower and not strength' to 'I move objects while in air using super-strength' nothing about flight playing a big part in it ever being mentioned again. And now you're asking me for proof of Superman somewhat illogically, stupidly saying "my flight plays no part in me lifting things" out of the blue, when it your job to provide proof that after Byrne flight still has a big effect on Superman lifting things while in the air. Is what you're doing sounding logical to you, or, like I said, just some ego-driven I've-got-to-have-the-last word posts ?

And you're also missing what our discussion was all about. We were never discussing how much does flight affect Superman's lifting/moving stuff while in air, we were discussing the Byrne era scans you used/your stance based on them and as I proved that they are no longer in continuity, your whole argument, your 'mythbust' is based on scans that no longer apply.

It's not quantum physics for Christ's sake.[/B]

Originally posted by Philosophía
Since I posted that scan I logically assumed that you read it, and thus when you started making arguments that weren't in line with what was presented during that period, and yet saying that the scans support you, I called you on it. I wasn't discrediting you since .. that was exactly what you were doing.

And now, funnily enough, you're accusing me of discrediting you and yet, you're the one who, eventough I clearly proved that Superman's power don't work the way they used to during the Byrne period you're going "hey, I'm just going to assume flight is a big part until he's showing me proof that it doesn't". [b]I did provide proof that they changed, drastically, since it went from 'I move objects while in air using willpower and not strength' to 'I move objects while in air using super-strength' nothing about flight playing a big part in it ever being mentioned again. And now you're asking me for proof of Superman somewhat illogically, stupidly saying "my flight plays no part in me lifting things" out of the blue, when it your job to provide proof that after Byrne flight still has a big effect on Superman lifting things while in the air. Is what you're doing sounding logical to you, or, like I said, just some ego-driven I've-got-to-have-the-last word posts ?

And you're also missing what our discussion was all about. We were never discussing how much does flight affect Superman's lifting/moving stuff while in air, we were discussing the Byrne era scans you used/your stance based on them and as I proved that they are no longer in continuity, your whole argument, your 'mythbust' is based on scans that no longer apply.

It's not quantum physics for Christ's sake. [/B]

His strength plays a part now, that's not really a major change except as far as his strength goes. And what you keep failing to address, is that Supes's powers are often attributed to telekinesis(or at least something similar). That means that there's still "another force at work" which means that my scans are still valid because the other force at work wasn't recotonned just Supes's strength being a factor. My scans prove that there's another force at work, if you're looking to counter that you need proof that there's not another force at work.

The scans apply until they don't. Like your scan that states he uses strength alone... that doesn't apply anymore. My scan that states there's another force at work when he's flying, that still does. It's still supported by later instances of his powers being portrayed as being telekinetic in nature so it's still valid because those later instances support that aspect of Supes's powers still being in effect.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You said I changed my argument changed... my previous quotes on the matter clearly indicate that it I never did. That was my bad on your scan though.

His strength plays a part now, that's not really a major change except as far as his strength goes. And what you keep failing to address, is that Supes's powers are often attributed to telekinesis(or at least something similar). That means that there's still "another force at work" which means that my scans are still valid because the other force at work wasn't recotonned just Supes's strength being a factor. My scans prove that there's another force at work, if you're looking to counter that you need proof that there's not another force at work.

The scans apply until they don't. Like your scan that states he uses strength alone... that doesn't apply anymore. My scan that states there's another force at work when he's flying, that still does. It's still supported by later instances of his powers being portrayed as being telekinetic in nature so it's still valid because those later instances support that aspect of Supes's powers still being in effect.

That is a major change because it completly nullifies your scans since him not using his strength while lifting things in the air was the whole point of your & my scan. You fail to realize that my scan is talking about exactly the same thing your scan does, written by the same author, concerning the same ability, reffering strictly to Superman not needing his super-strenght when supporting/lifting/moving things while flying, which as I've proved, no longer applies. The scans, the way they describe Superman's abilities are not canon anymore and thus your mythbust, your stance based on them is completly nullified. Any thing you are trying to prove using those scans doesn't apply to current Superman.

It's simple. It's logical. It's obvious. And I'm not going to waste my time anymore with this. I'll PM Juntai and Raoul, because this has become idiotic and see what they have to say.

Originally posted by Philosophía
That is a major change because it completly nullifies your scans since him not using his strength while lifting things in the air was the whole point of your & my scan. You fail to realize that my scan is talking about exactly the same thing your scan does, written by the same author, concerning the same ability, reffering strictly to Superman not needing his super-strenght when supporting/lifting/moving things while flying, which as I've proved, no longer applies. The scans, the way they describe Superman's abilities [b]are not canon anymore and thus your mythbust, your stance based on them is completly nullified. Any thing you are trying to prove using those scans doesn't apply to current Superman.

It's simple. It's logical. It's obvious. And I'm not going to waste my time anymore with this. I'll PM Juntai and Raoul, because this has become idiotic and see what they have to say. [/B]

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're either not getting this or you're deliberately ignoring that which you don't like.

^lol

Originally posted by darthgoober
You say that it's a major change to his powers, but later instances that indicate his powers being telekinetic in nature disagree with you. Those later instances support my stance that the other force is still at work and mean that my scans are still valid even if some of what Byrne set up isn't.

If you have later instances, use those instances. That's not the point of the discussion. We are strictly discussing those scans and your stance based on them, nothing more. And since, like proven what was stated in those scans is no longer in canon, your mythbust and your stance, which was based entirely on them is nullified. What the hell, man ?

Originally posted by Philosophía
^lol

If you have later instances, use those instances. That's not the point of the discussion. We are strictly discussing those scans and your stance based on them, nothing more. And since, like proven what was stated in those scans is no longer in canon, your mythbust and your stance, which was based entirely on them is nullified. What the hell, man ?

I'll use those instances as soon as I get them, but they support the scans I have now, so I'll keep on using them. Your case is dependant on the idea that all of Byrne's stuff should be thrown out, but those later instances of his powers being portrayed as being along the lines of telekinesis(that both you and Juntai acknowledge) support the stance that those scans are still valid.

Or are you of the opinion that Matrix Supergirl is no longer canon since she was introduced in Byrne's run even though she was also featured in books by later authors?

Originally posted by Philosophía
The scans that you have now state that while in flight, strength is not a factor in moving/lifting/pulling things which has been pulled out of continuity. You based your entire argument on this scans, and since they aren't applicable to current Superman, your stance and thus your mythbust are irrelevant. I can't put it in any simpler terms and I've repeated this so many times, my hand hurts. This discussion has been over for a few posts now, and I'm not about to go repeating the same thing over.and.over.again. Your use of the Supergirl example makes me want to e-cry. facepalm

You don't seem to understand simple things. Very simple. It's like I'm arguing with Quanchi/Carver only there's actually coherence in sentences, if not logic. Something was presented in the Byrne era, on which you base your entire argument on. After that era (and since then, there have been quite a few reboots -zero hour and infinite crisis being the major ones-) what was stated there was never mentioned again, and one important thing that just doesn't seem to sink in, there is on-panel proof that what was stated there is not true anymore. As in pulled out of continuity. As not applicable to current Superman Now, you're somehow saying that you're still using those scans because, well, you've heard from Juntai that Superman uses telekinesis while moving things, and thus, those scans are somewhat in agreeance.. with the scans you're using right now, which state that strength is not a factor in Superman moving things in air, eventough as I proved it is. I feel like my eyes bleed if I read another one of your leaps of logic. The Supergirl example is not applicable since there is nothing that directly contradicts it, unlike the case we have here. Hell, this is obviously such a bad example, that I shouldn't even be pointing it out.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Facts.

opinions 😛

1. Evidence has been posted that Supes's flight IS a factor in his pulling/pushing/lifting things while flying.

i disagree. i don't think those panels illustrate what you're claiming at all. plus, any byrne evidence is barely usable considering how many times superman's powers have been redefined since the 80s.

2. No evidence has been posted that Supes's flight power ISN'T a factor in his pulling/pushing/lifting things while flying.

you want people to prove a negative? tsk tsk 😛

If i was asked after reading the evidence here...i would say there is definetly something other than strength involved when superman is flying/lifting.

Originally posted by Philosophía
The scans that you have now state that while in flight, strength is not a factor in moving/lifting/pulling things which has been pulled out of continuity. You based your entire argument on this scans, and since they aren't applicable to current Superman, your stance and thus your mythbust are irrelevant. I can't put it in any simpler terms and I've repeated this so many times, my hand hurts. This discussion has been over for a few posts now, and I'm not about to go repeating the same thing over.and.over.again. Your use of the Supergirl example makes me want to e-cry. facepalm

You don't seem to understand simple things. Very simple. It's like I'm arguing with Quanchi/Carver only there's actually coherence in sentences, if not logic. Something was presented in the Byrne era, on which you base your entire argument on. After that era (and since then, there have been quite a few reboots -zero hour and infinite crisis being the major ones-) what was stated there was never mentioned again, and one important thing that just doesn't seem to sink in, there is on-panel proof that what was stated there is not true anymore. As in pulled out of continuity. As not applicable to current Superman Now, you're somehow saying that you're still using those scans because, well, you've heard from Juntai that Superman uses telekinesis while moving things, and thus, those scans are somewhat in agreeance.. with the scans you're using right now, which state that strength is not a factor in Superman moving things in air, eventough as I proved it is. I feel like my eyes bleed if I read another one of your leaps of logic. The Supergirl example is not applicable since there is nothing that directly contradicts it, unlike the case we have here. Hell, this is obviously such a bad example, that I shouldn't even be pointing it out.

My scans don't state that strength isn't a factor, they state that there's something else at work. Again, I can totally understand how someone might interpret the scans I post to mean that strength's not a factor, but now you're arguing over interpretation of the scans and my opinion is just as valid as yours on the matter. You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want, but I'll continue to post my scans as evidence until a rule is passed against posting scans from Byrne. And I can almost guarantee that such a policy will never be put into place because it means people will start shouting for similar policies instituted against Loeb, Enis, or any other author that they don't like and can come up with a half assed reason supported by two scans for their work to be considered completely rectonned.

Let me try to point out what's wrong with what you're wanting to do by throwing out feats from the Bryne's era using a slightly different example. Supes has FTL feats to his credit, right? Well Mcduffie says that Supes can't even hit lightspeed without entering hyperspace, and if we use your system of throwing out everything that might be rectonned, it means that if Mcduffie ever gets around to putting Supes using hyperspace in a comic we'll have to throw out EVERY single speed feat of Supes's from before Mcduffie took over since the nature of Supes's speed has been effectively rectonned. And it doesn't matter if later writers of Supes give him speed feats that justify the FTL feats right along the same lines as the Pre-Mcduffie feats(just as later writers attributed Supes's powers to telekinesis in a manner similar to Byrne) because according to the standard you're espousing, those feats will still have been rectonned at one point and will therefore never be applicable again. Now do you see the problem here? You posted two scans that kinda contradict the scans I posted and think it's enough to throw out the whole period, but no one in their right mind is going to agree with a precedent that would allow TWO instances from Mcduffie to alter everything about the character.

Unless they've rectonned the actual story that my scans took place in, it means that Supes still moved that ship with his strength being canceled out by the nullifiers. That means that my scans are still valid evidence of Supes's flight being a potential factor when he's moving something while flying. And if you're assuming that the story's been rectonned out of continuity just because Byrne was the writer, it means that ALL of Bryne's stories have been rectonned out of continuity(so my example of Matrix is valid).

Originally posted by Raoul
opinions 😛

Originally posted by Raoul
i disagree. i don't think those panels illustrate what you're claiming at all. plus, any byrne evidence is barely usable considering how many times superman's powers have been redefined since the 80s.

Originally posted by Raoul
you want people to prove a negative? tsk tsk 😛