Originally posted by OneDumbG0Well yeah... we are going to have to "never mind" that because that also isn't true...
[BNever mind the fact that he's gone toe-to-toe with Venom and Spiderman multiple times on-panel? [/B]
Carnage only ever took Venom and Spidey at the same time.... once. And he hightailed it before it became a real fight. Venom has stalemated or beaten Carnage by himself pretty much every time since.
Spiderman himself AND Scarlet have done solo work with Carnage.
Again, your version of Carnage> Marvel Comics Carnage.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
here venom stabs through the suit into Cletus..http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7326/venomontrial03144eh.jpg
🙄
pffft that's impossible... his maleable durabilit would never allow such penetration to take place... PIS I SAY! 😠
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I'm in agreement with you, but Sam will swear up and down that Venom was at a disadvantage himself when that was only evident at the end of the previous issue.
🤨
Only evident at the end of the previous issue?
Carnage had burned and sonic-gunned Eddies symbiote while torturing Eddie himself for... literally days before that battle took place.
Hell, to capture Venom, they had blasted his suit to nothing and then clobbered him with superhuman punishment.
He was WAAAAAAAYYY worse off than Carnage was during that confrontaton and Spiderman was STILL begging Venom to stop beating that ass.
As for Carnage not being all there... there's far less evidence to support that this was what was holding Cletus back during the fight than Venom torture did him.
Cletus was pretty alert..alert enough to start the fight.
Originally posted by jinzinSabretooth =/= Venom. Don't kid yourself. Venom would rock Sabretooth something fierce.
Aaaaaaand? Venom usually kicks the crap out of Carnage so I'm failing to see how that helps your case...And once again, Sabretooth has comparible damage soak given his HF. He has high durability and highter healing factor, the symbiotes have higher durability and weaker healing factors..
And yes, Symbiotes can't tank evisceration. How you can even begin to conclude otherwise goes against pretty much their ENTIRE CAREER.... I don't really know what else to say to that... it's like you just decided... "nu-uh" for the sake of argument here.
I'm failing to see how you're rebutting anything I've said. They have comparable damage soak. And Carnage has superior durability, not even a question. He's bullet-proof. Literally.
Symbiotes can't tank evisceration? That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Going against their entire career? Have you even shown me one instance where stabbing and slashing a symbiote character has killed them?
Originally posted by jinzinActing like I'm needling you with his strength advantage doesn't change the fact that I've been rebutting your assertions that just because Carnage doesn't have a game-changing strength advantage means Sabretooth stalemates.
Again strength isn't going to determine the winner of this fight, there's virtually no point in bringing it up.Which is why I have to ask again why you bothered bringing it up... arguments sake perhaps?
If you're making the argument that Carnage without a doubt takes this fight... yes they do.
Will do nothing to stop Creeds claws from doing their damage.
To rebut your attempts to ratchet off advantages as if the part was representative of the whole. I saw what you were doing.
I'm arguing Carnage wins clearly. 7-8/10. And Sabretooth literally having no advantage here that would blunt Carnage's effectiveness as a killing machine is indicative of that.
Yes, because somehow clawing Carnage's throat = Carnage's instantly put down. And you gave Sabretooth only 5/10 how again? All Sabretooth has to do is claw him once... something he clearly excels at... and he can only manage that single instance half the fights, which will be typically long and drawn out? Stop pretending there isn't a significant disconnect between your tangential arguments and your overall conclusion. The extent you'll argue a single point completely divorces itself from whatever possibly reasonable opinion you had coming in. And that gap is revealing, to say the least.
Originally posted by jinzinYes. Healing from damage near instantly after having his entire symbiote dissolved completely off is low-mid level compared to Creed.
Which are very low-mid level compared to Creed.An ability he has that he likely won't use since he doesn't do that in fights because of his stupidity.
Which has yet to be clearly proven an effective meathod of Cletus' fighting strategies....much less.... AT ALL actually..
An ability he uses in every single fight he's ever been in. You act like all he does is hack and slash. He uses his tendrils in EVERY fight.
Actually it prevented the New Avengers from even touching him at all and having to rely on an invulnerable skinned man. Sabretooth's invulnerable skinned now?
Originally posted by jinzinThere are several things I claim of Carnage. And I'm wrong on these claims? So... Carnage isn't stronger, i.e., superior to Spidey+Venom's application of brute strength? He isn't just as agile? He isn't more durable to piercing, i.e., literally bullet-proof? He doesn't have comparable damage soak with his malleable durability+recuperative abilities? And he doesn't use tendril attacks? Newsflash: you're wrong.
The only "clear advantage" is one that you've imagined which is based on ignoring clear weaknesses of the symbiotes, while boasting advantages they don't possess.... I guess if Carnage was everything you claimed he was just now it would be one thing.... But.... He isn't..I don't think anyone said Carnage would die... just that a throat shot is enough to put him down for a while... And I'm having a hard time see how this claim is so "outrageous" given the numerous times that hosts have been wounded inside the symbiote and unable to quickly recover, or the times that blades and edges have cut right through them.
Carnage being an idiot isn't a red herring by the way... it's a claim to CIS... one which is true... which the forum rules provide as acceptable.
But yeah.... YOUR version of Carnage would mop the floor with Sabretooth.. lol...
Yes, clearly. When Carnage's throat or gut is clawed, he goes down for a while. Yup.
He's always been a psychotic ruffian. His lack of a martial arts acumen doesn't prevent him from being as dangerous as we state. We're not using Karate Kid Carnage here. We're using plain Carnage, who still beats Sabretooth.
The version in the comics. Right.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
so how did i do holding up the fort jinzin? 😮
Meh.... not that you did horrible or anything but we're beginning to run a lot of tangents here. Carnage's cowardice probably won't be a factor in this fight til the fights already swaying one way or the other so there's no point in bringing it up.
And while I don't think that the scan of the venom/carnage fight you showed is clear evidence that that kind of attack is what it takes to significantly hurt/damage carnage, I DO think it pretty much lays to rest the idea that Carnage's "maleable durability" is for shit when his suits being ripped and torn at.
^ Carnage and Venom have ripped into each other and causing each other pain without it ending up as either of them being unconscious.
Sabretooth isn't immune to pain either. How exactly is he going to feel when his skull's poked or his throat's stuffed and he's asphyxiated? Because he was instantly beat when his skull's been poked and he got instantly beat when he was asphyxiated via throat stuffage. Show me Carnage being instantly beat via small pieces of his suit tearing and then possibly, you might be able to argue on an even keel here.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sabretooth =/= Venom. Don't kid yourself. Venom would rock Sabretooth something fierce.
And.. IF Venom beat Sabretooth in a fight it's because he's way smarter and more dangerous than Carnage... Points still the same, bringing up that Venom beats Carnages ass is no way to convince us that Carnage can beat Sabretooth.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm failing to see how you're rebutting anything I've said. They have comparable damage soak. And Carnage has superior durability, not even a question. He's bullet-proof. Literally.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Symbiotes can't tank evisceration? That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Going against their entire career? Have you even shown me one instance where stabbing and slashing a symbiote character has killed them?
Already did, and you chose to ignore it. Seperation anxiety.
And please, it's one of the stupidest things you've ever heard? Is that due to the by-product of you talking out your ass for pretty much this entire conversation?
Because I really don't think we need to show ever example of someone stabbing/cutting a symbiote user to prove that it can be done.. especially when Shadow showed you that Carnages suit couldn't stop a frikkin needle not one page ago...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Ummm that wasn't my argument so you'll forgive me if I ignore this part. Nice strawman though.
Acting like I'm needling you with his strength advantage doesn't change the fact that I've been rebutting your assertions that just because Carnage doesn't have a game-changing strength advantage means Sabretooth stalemates.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
To rebut your attempts to ratchet off advantages as if the part was representative of the whole. I saw what you were doing.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm arguing Carnage wins clearly. 7-8/10. And Sabretooth literally having no advantage here that would blunt Carnage's effectiveness as a killing machine is indicative of that.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, because somehow clawing Carnage's throat = Carnage's instantly put down.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And you gave Sabretooth only 5/10 how again? Stop pretending there isn't a significant disconnect between your arguments and your overall conclusion. The extent you'll argue a single point completely divorces itself from whatever possibly reasonable opinion you had coming in. And that gap is revealing, to say the least.Yes. Healing from damage near instantly after having his entire symbiote dissolved completely off is low-mid level compared to Creed.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0From every inch of his body? Yeah no...
An ability he uses in every single fight he's ever been in. You act like all he does is hack and slash. He uses his tendrils in EVERY fight.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Actually it prevented the New Avengers from even touching him at all and having to rely on an invulnerable skinned man. Sabretooth's invulnerable skinned now?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Carnage isn't stronger, i.e., superior to Spidey+Venom's application of brute strength, just as agile, more durable to piercing, i.e., literally bullet-proof, doesn't have comparable damage soak with his malleable durability+recuperative abilities and he doesn't use tendril attacks? Newsflash: you're wrong.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Ummm I'm pretty sure I've already said symiote users can take being gutted.. though it hurts them... But.... hey I mean I can see how you would have such a hard time believing Carnage WOULDN'T tank lethal blows... what with his inability to heal scratches on a face, or the fact that ripping him in two killed him rather quickly.
Yes, clearly. When Carnage's throat or gut is clawed, he goes down for a while. Yup.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Still beats Sabretooth according to your version... I have no problem with you living your delusions. Funny you talk about pretending when you're going to sit there and "pretend" that skill isn't going to be a factor in this fight (which is a MASSIVE gapping difference between the two) but speed is... (which isn't)... lol OK dumb.
He's always been a psychotic ruffian. His lack of a martial arts acumen doesn't prevent him from being as dangerous as we state. We're not using Karate Kid Carnage here. We're using plain Carnage, who still beats Sabretooth.
The version in the comics. Right.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Carnage and Venom have ripped into each other and causing each other pain without it ending up as either of them being unconscious.Sabretooth isn't immune to pain either. How exactly is he going to feel when his skull's poked or his throat's stuffed and he's asphyxiated? Because he was instantly beat when his skull's been poked and he got instantly beat when he was asphyxiated via throat stuffage. Show me Carnage being instantly beat via small pieces of his suit tearing and then possibly, you might be able to argue on an even keel here.
Actually he wasn't "instantly beat" with the asphyxiation thing though he was hindered a bit...
Meh, Sabretooth's already beaten and eaten three opponents who had Carnages abilities.. at once.
^ Irony. Feel free to not break up my paragraphs into tiny fragments. I follow your lead. You want to summarize, go for it.
Originally posted by jinzinAnd we're arguing Venom vs. Wolverine right now, is that it?
Like he's done to Wolverine every time they've fought right?
Oh wait... no that hasn't happened.... Stalemates.And.. IF Venom beat Sabretooth in a fight it's because he's way smarter and more dangerous than Carnage... Points still the same, bringing up that Venom beats Carnages ass is no way to convince us that Carnage can beat Sabretooth.
Okay... at this point I'm compelled to bring up that Sabretooth has shrugged off a rocket propelled grenade to the chest and a jet crash with little more than burns..... But that aside.. dude... IT DOESN'T MATTER if Carnage can tank blunt trauma due to his symbiote, it's not an advantage against Creed it's not even worth bringing up.
Venom can beat opponents Carnage can't because he's smarter? Bringing up the point that Venom and Carnage match each other equates to Sabretooth winning how exactly?
And bullets are blunt force trauma how?
Originally posted by jinzinAnd this is one instance in the face of how many contrary examples? This coming from the guy who gave me grief over Daredevil using a nerve-blow to down Wolverine for a moment? Carnage couldn't stop a needle from getting through and him being literally bullet-proof evinces no disconnect in your logic? Or maybe just that Venom stabbed the symbiote with his tremendous strength with a needle?
Already did, and you chose to ignore it. Seperation anxiety.
And please, it's one of the stupidest things you've ever heard? Is that due to the by-product of you talking out your ass for pretty much this entire conversation?
Because I really don't think we need to show ever example of someone stabbing/cutting a symbiote user to prove that it can be done.. especially when Shadow showed you that Carnages suit couldn't stop a frikkin needle not one page ago...Ummm that wasn't my argument so you'll forgive me if I ignore this part. Nice strawman though. I was responding to your propaganda that those were what gave carnage a "clear advantage" when that's anything but the case...
I never said Carnage's strength and agility gave him a clear advantage. In fact, that's the opposite of what I said. Thanks for missing the point.
Originally posted by jinzinExcuse me, you just listed non-factors here. Are you forgetting Carnage's superior strength, agility, greater piercing durability AND blunt durability, ability to reform his symbiote completely from his bloodstream, ability to use his entire body as a weapon, ability to perceive his surroundings through his symbiote, and his vampiric touch?
No advantages... yeah... except for his higher intelligence, fighting skills, (WAY HIGHER) healing factor, offensive weaponry that can bypass Carnages defensive durabilty completely, and greater stamina...... Sure no advantages whatsoever there..Because Cletus or any other symbiote user for that matter has shown the ability to walk through mortal/vital blows...
Already explained the first part to you, can't help you more.
And uh.... Carnage having his symbiote reform is not the same as CLETUS healing significant host damage.. sorry.
Actually. Yes. Symbiotes have. A lot.
You didn't explain crap. You focused your argument down to a single claw to his throat or gut and Carnage loses. And you give Sabretooth 5/10 how? Drop this pretense that you're arguing from a credible, unbiased viewpoint here. The complete disconnect is sickening. Either you don't believe a single claw to his throat/gut ends the fight or you don't believe Sabretooth stalemates. Seriously. Drop the pretense.
Originally posted by jinzinWhich has also utterly ensared Spiderman. A lot. You look at any of his fights, and your backhanded estimation that he simply projects lance-type single directional attacks are dead wrong.
From every inch of his body? Yeah no...
He uses tendrils in directional attacks that people like Black Cat have been able to temporarily negotiate..Again 1) I'd have to see this to lend credit to this power Carnage apparently spontaneously developed... and 2) If his last appearance was the only time that power showed up to effect... is that really something your commited to using in this argument.....
And 3) Would you compare this vampiric ability to sayyyy Omega Red's death factor? Because it certainly didn't work against a weaker Creed.
Are you seriously going to argue that Kassady's vampiric touch or Omega Red's death spores is an absolute non-factor against Sabretooth?
Originally posted by jinzinI'm not accusing you of assertign that Carnage was weaker than Venom. I'm calling out your accxusations of me. My so-called "false claims that, if they were true, it would be one thing... but... he isn't..." Carnage does have superior strength. His tendrils alone can ensnare and keep Spiderman's entire body at bay let alone his limbs. Carnage's superior piercing durability isn't a damn question. Sabretooth is not bullet-proof. Carnage is. Nuff said. Don't even try to confuse damage soak with pure piercing durability. Trying to act like I'm straw-manning you when you accuse me of making stuff up is comedy gold.
Never said Carnage wasn't stronger than Venom so that's one argument I never made.
Never said Carnage wasn't as agile as Sabretooth...that's two.
Carnage DOESN'T have more durability to piercing damage.. so that's a fallacy.
Already stated that the difference between Carnage's abilities and Sabretooth's in damage soak was comparible.. so 3rd argument I've never made?
And I already said that I know he uses tendril attacks... so 4 now.... What I'm arguing his how effectively and to what degree he'll use them. Something you haven't quite got a grasp on.Ummm I'm pretty sure I've already said symiote users can take being gutted.. though it hurts them... But.... hey I mean I can see how you would have such a hard time believing Carnage WOULDN'T tank lethal blows... what with his inability to heal scratches on a face, or the fact that ripping him in two killed him rather quickly.
Still beats Sabretooth according to your version... I have no problem with you living your delusions. Funny you talk about pretending when you're going to sit there and "pretend" that skill isn't going to be a factor in this fight (which is a MASSIVE gapping difference between the two) but speed is... (which isn't)... lol OK dumb.
No. You said if their throat is clawed, they're down. Same with gutting/evisceration. Carnage can't heal a scratch on his face... even though he literally did when his symbiote poured out of those scratches and completely reformed around his entire body instantly? Can you not see pictures on your computer or something?
Skill helps Sabretooth avoid having this be an utter curbstomp. But Carnage is literally a whirling dervish of slashing, piercing, and gutting that even Spiderman can't avoid. Combined with his malleable durability and recuperative abilities and vampiric touch and mind-control abilities, and Sabretooth's utter lack of piercing durability, those fighting skills alone aren't overcoming Carnage. Especially when you're operating under the laughable view that Carnage getting clawed in the throat or gut once will put him down.
Originally posted by jinzinSabretooth was done when Deadpool made him suck his arm. And it's a method Carnage uses frequently.
Actually he wasn't "instantly beat" with the asphyxiation thing though he was hindered a bit...
Meh, Sabretooth's already beaten and eaten three opponents who had Carnages abilities.. at once.
Originally posted by jinzinThat's ok man.🙂 Dont get me wrong, I wasnt trying to hype Venom, nothing like that. It's just ive never seen him get beaten by being gutted. And the few times he has been it seemed that it didnt bother him at all. As for his children, they only died because Scream used a special sonic knife. She HAD to, probably because she knew just gutting/stabing wont hurt them. Sure he fell from Logan's unexpected attack and braced himself, but there was no sign of damage, not even of him being hurt, one would expect him to at least make a sound from having adamantium claws rip through his body. Instead he replied to Wolverine as if they didnt even interrupt the conversation and got up like nothing happened and that's after getting impaled with his guts on 3 inch adamantium claws. So I really believe he can even take things like having his organs cut etc The clone though wasnt completely identical, the key things like HF and ability to take damage, weaknesses etc were simillar. I dont think it was writers intention to show that he was superior in any way than Venom, or that he unlike Venom can take getting stabbed, if it was Venom fighting Logan instead of the clone in that book the fight would've went the same way. Actually Anti-Venom's HF was shown to be not as good as Venom's, like when he got stabbed by Scorpion's tale it hurt him, yet EVEN Anti-Venom was able to heal after having his brains blown out. If anything it compliments Venom. Im not comparing their overall abilities, just healing.
^ Yes he survives no doubt, my point is he feels pain too.
I'm a bit under the impression here that you guys think Carnage is just standing there and Sabes starts slashing him. Carnage often used his symbiote for range attacks (projectiles) and midrange attacks (long sharp shovels, turning his arm into a lance kinda thingy etc.)
