So GS is saying .. she edited the 616 timeline to prevent the [possible?] future from coming about. We know this because it is definiately at least 'a' future of 616 reality, and she went to before it's divergence to prevent it from happening. This would place it 'now.', 616.
And MrMaster is saying, even though that Earth is a 616 timeline, none of these events affected the 616 timeline, because traveling back to 'now', puts you in divergent timeline from the start?
But once again, we have seen divergent timeline characters in 616 continuity, by traveling backwards in time to before the point their divergence takes place.
Originally posted by Juntai
So GS is saying .. she edited the 616 timeline to prevent the [possible?] future from coming about. We know this because it is definiately at least 'a' future of 616 reality, and she went to before it's divergence to prevent it from happening. This would place it 'now.', 616.And MrMaster is saying, even though that Earth is a 616 timeline, none of these events affected the 616 timeline, because traveling back to 'now', puts you in divergent timeline from the start?
But once again, we have seen divergent timeline characters in 616 continuity, by traveling backwards in time to before the point their divergence takes place.
✅ Precisely, because as the diagram from F4#553 shows, divergent realities are just branches off of 616, created when an event takes place that is not meant to happen.
If the breach is strong enough then a new divergent reality is created. However if you go back in time past the point in divergence, you get back into the 616 timeline.
I think whats confusing them Jun is the fact that its stated that a new universe is created with a difference in history.
But what they're forgetting to take note of is the fact that the example shown is talking about time travelling to the past. So by altering events in the past, creating a divergent reality, of course that divergent reality is going to have some different history.
Because events were changed in the past, so events in that new reality are going to be different in comparison to events in 616.
That divergent reality created from a point in 616's past is going to continue differently to 616 did during the same time period
However if in that past divergent reality you go back to divergent point, you'll end up back in 616.
Was that clear, or was that a complete mess? 😂
Originally posted by Juntai
So GS is saying ..
she edited the 616 timeline to prevent the [possible?] future from coming about.
We know this because it is definiately at least 'a' future of 616 reality,
and she went to before it's divergence to prevent it from happening.
This would place it 'now.', 616.
Jean only forced Scott (who was in 616) to stay with Emma and the X-Men,
Scotts decision advertantly altered that One possible Future,
of the literally countless possible FutureS of 616.
The power of divergence and alteration was ALL in Scotts mind.
Originally posted by JuntaiAnd MrMaster is saying, even though that Earth is a 616 timeline,
none of these events affected the 616 timeline,
because traveling back to 'now', puts you in divergent timeline from the start?
First off, there's only One 616 Timeline,
Other Timelines (like 15104)
are separate Universes with separate Histories after their divergence.
So Reality 15104 is a Timeline branched off from 616,
but the instant it became 15104, it became another Universe.
The question is, when did it become 15104?
The moment the story landed 150 Years in the Future:
...............................................................................................
AGAIN ----
Reality 15104 did NOT appear in issue #154 when Jean amputated it's future,
Reality 15104 was clearly born the instant the story jumped into the Future.
On Panel:
Page 31 of New-Xmen #150 - 150 YEARS in the Future (another Timeline)
we are in Reality 15104:
Page 32 of New X-men #150
The Phoenix Egg ... IN Reality 15104 (150 Years in the Future)
...............................................................................................
The Official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio clearly states this:
"Here Comes Tomorrow ... Earth 15104 ...
First appearance, New X-Men #150"
...............................................................................................
There's no getting aorund this.
Reality 15104 began WAY BEFORE Jean did anything in issue #154.
...............................................................................................
Btw, if one travels back to "now" (as in the Present 616)
one ends up in 616.
Now travel to one second BEFORE or AFTER the Present/Current 616,
and you end up in another Timeline,
because every second before and after the Current/Present Timeline is another Reality:
.........................................................................................
Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)
"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...
The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"
Originally posted by JuntaiBut once again, we have seen divergent timeline characters in 616 continuity,
by traveling backwards in time to before the point their divergence takes place.
But this scenerio you're painting
has absolutely nothing to do with "Here Comes Tomorrow"
Again, no one traveled anywhere (Past or Future) to create Reality 15104,
Morrison just monkey wrenched it into a story,
thus it was Reality 15104 from the very beginning.
Just like,
the "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bios clearly states above. (with the On Panel confirmation)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, Jean didn't do anything to the actual 616 Universe,
Jean only affected 15104.Jean only forced Scott (who was in 616) to stay with Emma and the X-Men,
Scotts decision advertantly altered that One possible Future,
of the literally countless possible FutureS of 616.The power of divergence and alteration was ALL in Scotts mind.
I never said that, let's be thorough true debater.
First off, there's only One 616 Timeline,
Other Timelines (like 15104)
are separate Universes with separate Histories after their divergence.
So Reality 15104 is a Timeline branched off from 616,
but the instant it became 15104, it became another Universe.The question is, when did it become 15104?
The moment the story landed 150 Years in the Future:
...............................................................................................
AGAIN ----
Reality 15104 did NOT appear in issue #154 when Jean amputated it's future,
Reality 15104 was clearly born the instant the story jumped into the Future.[B]On Panel
:Page 31 of New-Xmen #150 - 150 YEARS in the Future (another Timeline)
we are in Reality 15104:
Page 32 of New X-men #150
The Phoenix Egg ... IN Reality 15104 (150 Years in the Future)
...............................................................................................
The Official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio clearly states this:
"Here Comes Tomorrow ... Earth 15104 ...
First appearance, New X-Men #150"
...............................................................................................
There's no getting aorund this.
Reality 15104 began WAY BEFORE Jean did anything in issue #154.
...............................................................................................
Btw, if one travels back to "now" (as in the Present 616)
one ends up in 616.Now travel to one second BEFORE the Present/Current 616,
and you end up in another Timeline,
because every second before and after the Current/Present Timeline is another Reality:.........................................................................................
Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)
"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"
Correct, I never said that was impossible.
But this scenerio you're painting
has absolutely nothing to do with "Here Comes Tomorrow"Again, no one traveled anywhere (Past or Future) to create Reality 15104,
Morrison just monkey wrenched it into a story,
thus it was Reality 15104 from the very beginning.Just like,
the "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bios clearly states above. (with the On Panel confirmation) [/B]
Without Jeans intervention the Here Comes Tomorrow future is the result. Without intervention from an external force he would have done the same thing. Jeans intervention saw that Cyclops did what he was fated to do and so 616 continued as it was supposed to.
You're right, there is only one 616 timeline, but when a reality diverges from it it only has a different history if it was created by a time traveller altering events in the past.
Otherwise IT IS 616 up until the point of divergence as the diagram clearly shows:
These divergent realities are NOT separate parallel lines to the main 616 timeline. They are branches off of the main line.
However as the diagram clearly shows, go past the point of divergence and you're back in 616.
This point i sclearly demonstrated by alternate future time travellers such as Bishop, Cable, Rachel Summers etc, travelling back in time only to find themselves in 616 😬
Once again please note the F4 example is focused on time travellers creating divergent realities in the past. THAT is why it talks of these new realities having different historys.
Originally posted by GalacticStormPrecisely, because as the diagram from F4#553 shows,
divergent realities are just branches off of 616,
created when an event takes place that is not meant to happen.If the breach is strong enough then a new divergent reality is created. However if you go back in time past the point in divergence, you get back into the 616 timeline.
No one traveled anywhere to create Reality 15104,
it simply was cause that's where Morrison placed the story.
Just like Valentino placed GOTG in the 31st Century of the 616 Universe from the beginning,
and thus was forced to designate that Reality Earth 691.
Originally posted by GalacticStormI think whats confusing them Jun
is the fact that its stated that a new universe is created with a difference in history.
"I think what's confusing them?"
😆 ... Get over yourself gs.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But what they're forgetting to take note of is the fact that the example shown is talking about time travelling to the past. So by altering events in the past, creating a divergent reality, of course that divergent reality is going to have some different history.
Because events were changed in the past, so events in that new reality are going to be different in comparison to events in 616.
That divergent reality created from a point in 616's past is going to continue differently to 616 did during the same time period
However if in that past divergent reality you go back to divergent point, you'll end up back in 616.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Was that clear, or was that a complete mess?
The first appearance of reality 15104 was in issue 150 of New X-men, however up until Jean amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow future and replaced it by altering the events which caused it, it was the direct continuation of 616.
When Jean replaced it, then it gained its reality designation 15104.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What seems to have escaped your notice is that if cutting off the Here Comes Tomorrow future, you are taken back to 616 present, then of course it [B]WAS the direct continuation of the 616 timeline.Jean altered Cyclops reaction to Emma and “In the modern era of Earth 616, Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the Xavier Institute, unknowingly ensuring that at least one apocalyptic future would not come to fruition”
Here Comes Tomorrow was the direct continuation of 616 and by changing the event which lead to 616, Jean continued the main 616 timeline NOT another divergent reality. 😄
And the bio confirms this:
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]Without Jeans intervention the Here Comes Tomorrow future is the result. Without intervention from an external force he would have done the same thing. Jeans intervention saw that Cyclops did what he was fated to do and so 616 continued as it was supposed to.
You're right, there is only one 616 timeline, but when a reality diverges from it it only has a different history if it was created by a time traveller altering events in the past.
Otherwise IT IS 616 up until the point of divergence as the diagram clearly shows:
These divergent realities are NOT separate parallel lines to the main 616 timeline. They are branches off of the main line.
However as the diagram clearly shows, go past the point of divergence and you're back in 616.
This point i sclearly demonstrated by alternate future time travellers such as Bishop, Cable, Rachel Summers etc, travelling back in time only to find themselves in 616
Once again please note the F4 example is focused on time travellers creating divergent realities in the past. THAT is why it talks of these new realities having different historys.
Nice.
Gotta go now, this has turned into a major ... durznuts
of the literally countless possible FutureS of 616.
actually, there is only ONE future for 616 -- any other future is no longer 616. rather they are branches OFF of 616. to say it differently -- they are designated by different numbers than 616.
what is being lost however is that there IS a 'true' path that the 616 is meant to follow. eternity embodies time -- he is finite. the question becomes what IS the 'true path' 616 is supposed to take. could it have been the future morrison showed? i don't see why not. the 616 COULD have progressed along those lines -- ie, those events could very well have been the ones that WOULD have occurred along the MAIN BRANCH in the diagram.
morrison could decree that future 616 if he chose to do so -- it's only a glimpse and reserved to only the x-world, so no harm done to continuity because we don't KNOW what happened anywhere else.
however, once that future was reached, and someone was sent back to the point where that future could be ALTERED (ie where the issue with scott took place) THEN -- because the previously pre-destined future has now been amputated and removed, there is now a NEW future for the 616 timeline.
does that makes sense to anyone NOT on drugs . . .? 😕
Originally posted by Mr Master
This diagram is inconsequential and still defies your explanations.No one traveled anywhere to create Reality 15104,
it simply was cause that's where Morrison placed the story.Just like Valentino placed GOTG in the 31st Century of the 616 Universe from the beginning,
and thus was forced to designate that Reality Earth 691.
You deem it inconsequential because you've missed the whole point. 😉
The diagram serves to portray the structure of the continuum and what it looks like when divergent realities are created.
The only difference between the diagram and Here Comes Tomorrow is that the divergent realities in the diagram were created in the past, whereas the divergent reality of Here Comes Tomorrow was created in the present 🙂
As stated, in the F4 issue, a divergent reality is created when some event in time takes place that isn't supposed to.
That is very much relevant to this HCT issue.
Here Comes Tomorrow was not meant to happen:
Jean was supposed to carry out her Phoenix duties and exterminate Sublime. That was the reason she was reborn in the first place, she was not meant to live out her life as a human for all of these years.
As the Consciousness says when blaming her for the Here Comes Tomorrow future, she became "emotionally engaged", "Heart got stuck"
That lead to her getting killed by a Sublime infested Xorneto and Cyclops grief and guilt ridden abandoned Emma.
Reality diverged into HCT.
Originally posted by leonidas
actually, there is only ONE future for 616 -- any other future is no longer 616. rather they are branches OFF of 616. to say it differently -- they are designated by different numbers than 616.what is being lost however is that there IS a 'true' path that the 616 is meant to follow. eternity embodies time -- he is finite. the question becomes what IS the 'true path' 616 is supposed to take. could it have been the future morrison showed? i don't see why not. the 616 COULD have progressed along those lines -- ie, those events could very well have been the ones that WOULD have occurred along the MAIN BRANCH in the diagram.
morrison could decree that future 616 if he chose to do so -- it's only a glimpse and reserved to only the x-world, so no harm done to continuity because we don't KNOW what happened anywhere else.
however, once that future was reached, and someone was sent back to the point where that future could be ALTERED (ie where the issue with scott took place) THEN -- because the previously pre-destined future has now been amputated and removed, there is now a NEW future for the 616 timeline.
does that makes sense to anyone NOT on drugs . . .? 😕
And that is my interpretation, relayed to the masses as only Leonidas can 😱 clap
616 has a future.
Here Comes Tomorrow was presented as the direct continuation of 616.
That is why when Phoenix cut off 616 and altered the event which created 616(Cyclops reaction to Emma) 616 and NOT a divergent reality, continued.
Once again i will highlight the bios support of this:
“In the modern era of Earth 616, Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the Xavier Institute, unknowingly ensuring that at least one apocalyptic future would not come to fruition”
Here Comes Tomorrow was 616, until Jean cut it off and changed the event which created it. Once she had replaced HCT, it became just another future instead of THE future, it was at this point that it gained the designation 15104.
By saying that, what i am NOT saying is that 15104 was created the moment Jean replaced it, because thats not true, it first appearred the moment Cyclops abandoned Emma, however it wasn't until Jean separated and replaced it, making it NOT 616, that a different reality designation was required to distinguish it.
🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And that is my interpretation, relayed to the masses as only Leonidas can 😱 clap
😮
the thing i forgot to mention -- the timeline that was amputated would also become an ALTERNATE timeline by reason of its divergence from the NEW main, 616 timeline.
so it stands to reason (moreso even than -- it would DEMAND . . .) it is now designated as a divergent/alternate timeline. 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
😮the thing i forgot to mention -- the timeline that was amputated would also become an ALTERNATE timeline by reason of its divergence from the NEW main, 616 timeline.
so it stands to reason (moreso even than -- it would DEMAND . . .) it is now designated as a divergent/alternate timeline. 🙂
Pure debating perfection cheers
Originally posted by leonidas
actually, there is only ONE future for 616 -- any other future is no longer 616. rather they are branches OFF of 616. to say it differently -- they are designated by different numbers than 616.
Originally posted by leonidas
what is being lost however is that there IS a 'true' path that the 616 is meant to follow. eternity embodies time -- he is finite. the question becomes what IS the 'true path' 616 is supposed to take.
could it have been the future morrison showed? i don't see why not. the 616 COULD have progressed along those lines -- ie, those events could very well have been the ones that WOULD have occurred along the MAIN BRANCH in the diagram.
Besides the Fact that nor Morrison or anyone else has claimed that,
Both Bios state it's just One Future:
.........................................................................................
"Here Comes Tomorrow" BIO clearly states:
Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the X Institute ...
unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future ...
would Not come to fruition" ...
.........................................................................................
Sounds to me, no, it most certainly is, just another possible Future.
.........................................................................................
I guess this is why the other bio also states:
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"
.........................................................................................
Which fits in perfectly with the Concept of MANY possible Futures in 616.
.........................................................................................
Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)
"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...
The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"
Originally posted by leonidas
morrison could decree that future 616 if he chose to do so --
it's only a glimpse and reserved to only the x-world,
so no harm done to continuity
because we don't KNOW what happened anywhere else.
...............................................................................................
The Official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio clearly states this:
"Here Comes Tomorrow ... Earth 15104 ...
First appearance, New X-Men #150"
...............................................................................................
The Real 616 Future, will appear on panel,
when Time passes by and that Future is reached.
(Only way to be certain)
Originally posted by leonidas
however, once that future was reached,
and someone was sent back to the point where that future could be ALTERED
(ie where the issue with scott took place)
THEN -- because the previously pre-destined future has now been amputated
and removed, there is now a NEW future for the 616 timeline.does that makes sense to anyone NOT on drugs . . .?
Now, if you can present proof
that Marvel made the "Here Comes Tomorrow" Future, it's definite Future,
I'll concede, if not ... well, it's just a respected unsupported opinion,
respected .. but of no consequence.
Especially when it directly contradicts what Marvel has confirmed.
