WC Phoenix runs a mini DC gauntlet!

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not actually discounting your interpretation, actually.
i can see BOTH sides of this.
i just happen to think BOTH are equally valid.

Originally posted by leonidas
like i said,
i think the only way to definitively answer the question
would be to have had the future declared 616 in the arc itself.
without that i don't think there is anyway to say it was

Originally posted by leonidas
or wasn't intended to be the 'true' 616 future.

I state that with 100% confidence.

Both Bios state, it was just another possible Future.

Originally posted by leonidas
basically you're saying it was an alternate future from the get-go.

...............................................................................................

The Official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio clearly states this:

"Here Comes Tomorrow ... Earth 15104 ...

First appearance, New X-Men #150"

...............................................................................................

Originally posted by leonidas
gs is saying it is NOW an alternate future but previously (before it was altered) it was the 'true' future of the 616.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think gs's interpretation is what morrison was intending, personally.

But in actuality, as you saw in the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio,
it was not.

Originally posted by leonidas
to say he was intending -- as he wrote it --
that it was just some meaningless future
that had no real relevence to the 'main universe'
seems to demean the effort of writing the story in the first place.
morrison has always gone for the 'grand plan',
so, imo, gs's interpretation just . . . fits better with me.

This is what Morrison thought of that Reality, through the eyes of Quintin:

"If it was me, I'd just let it die"

.............................................................................

If that was 616,
what Quintin is daring to stae is,

"if it was me, I'd just let ALL of Marvel die"

.............................................................................

WHY?

.............................................................................

616 dies, everything dies:

"After my last report however, we were forced to reinspect our fundamental principles.

We concluded that the destruction of This Universe,
while still bounded by the speed of light,
would occur within an expanding simultaneity, which would,
paratemporally, have begun immediately following the initial
nanoseconds of This Universe.

And then it would Expand outward from This Universe ...
we call it 616 ... to engulf All Others ... "

..................................................................................

Dr Stange is confused with the Uatu's explanation,
so Uatu tells him in plain engilsh the fact concerning the significance
of the 616 Reality:

Dr Strange says,

"I do not understand ... please explain more simply"

Uatu explains more simply,

"If your World Dies now, Stephen, it will take Everything with it.

Not only This Universe (616) but All the Other UniverseS as well.

Everything there is, will End.

Or rather put it even more simply, Everything will never have been"

..................................................................................

Originally posted by leonidas
the bios you showed can STILL be viewed as accurate, because, again,
that future HAS been relegated as a 'possible' future by virtue of its having been amputated.
of course, your own view is also valid.
lacking the definitive in-story proof,
i think it boils down to a choice of equally valid interpretations.

Originally posted by Mr Master

This is what Morrison thought of that Reality, through the eyes of Quintin:

"If it was me, [B]I'd just let it die"

.............................................................................

If that was 616,
what Quintin is daring to stae is,

"if it was me, I'd just let ALL of Marvel die"

.............................................................................

WHY?

.............................................................................

616 dies, everything dies:

"After my last report however, we were forced to reinspect our fundamental principles.

We concluded that the destruction of This Universe,
while still bounded by the speed of light,
would occur within an expanding simultaneity, which would,
paratemporally, have begun immediately following the initial
nanoseconds of This Universe.

And then it would Expand outward from This Universe ...
we call it 616 ... to engulf All Others ... "

..................................................................................

Dr Stange is confused with the Uatu's explanation,
so Uatu tells him in plain engilsh the fact concerning the significance
of the 616 Reality:

Dr Strange says,

"I do not understand ... please explain more simply"

Uatu explains more simply,

"If your World Dies now, Stephen, it will take Everything with it.

Not only This Universe (616) but All the Other UniverseS as well.

Everything there is, will End.

Or rather put it even more simply, Everything will never have been"

..................................................................................

I'm flabbergasted. 😛 [/B]

Quentins comments don't indicate what Grant Morrisson thinks of reality.

Whose to say Quentin wasn't just being a cocky punk?

And most importantly......did Jean listen to Quentin in the end or did she grow a new future for 616? 😕

Thats all that matters 🙂

....

Originally posted by Mr Master

Which is contradicted by Marvel right above.

The bios don't contradict me at all, because as it stands Here Comes Tomorrow IS just another future for 616.

However before Jean separated and replaced it by changing the event which created it, it was THE future of 616.

How do we know? 😕

It wasn't just a divergent future which existed alongside 616.

It WAS 616. 616 Cyclops' reaction resulted in HCT or what we're reading now. Not HCT AND what we're reading now.

That alone tells you that before Jeans intervention it wasn't just one of many futures.

😄

😖hifty:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You love me really don't you? droolio

Come on!!! Admit it!!! 😱

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So with regards to what happened in the White Hot Room, what do you believe.

Mr Master believes:

Jean amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow future,

let it be carried away by some mysterious bird like claw

only for Jean to manifest it again within the crystal and repair it,

then she held this amputated future she had just repaired and after hearing events from the past of 616 from it changed the past so that this amputated future never existed

.........................................................................................

Concerning this arc,
it always dealt with Reality 15104 from the very beginning.

.........................................................................................

My On Panel, Bio corroborated, Grant Morrison confirmed Proof is undeniable.

It was Reality/Timeline 15104 (150 years in the Future) all along:

It's the SAME Universe/Timeline that Phoenix disinfected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was disconnected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was repaired atomically (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that houses a "broken hearted Beast"
an "Emma leaving, X-Men quitting" dead Cyclops. (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline - a wounded orphan because of "Here Comes Tomorrow"
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline Jean "symbolically waters with her heart's blood" (15104)
(by reaching into the Past and changing Scott's mind)

Finally,
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that was altered (15104)
by Scott changing his mind, in it's pre-diverged state.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I on the other hand believe

Originally posted by Mr Master

My On Panel, Bio corroborated, Grant Morrison confirmed Proof is undeniable.

It was Reality/Timeline 15104 (150 years in the Future) all along:

It's the SAME Universe/Timeline that Phoenix disinfected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was disconnected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was repaired atomically (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that houses a "broken hearted Beast"
an "Emma leaving, X-Men quitting" dead Cyclops. (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline - a wounded orphan because of "Here Comes Tomorrow"
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline Jean "symbolically waters with her heart's blood" (15104)
(by reaching into the Past and changing Scott's mind)

Finally,
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that was altered (15104)
by Scott changing his mind, in it's pre-diverged state.

Yea, stick to that.

Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, because as a divergent future, it WAS 616 up until the point of divergence.

Jean did remove Sublime from what came to be known as 15104

15104 was a divergent future itself so could its future be amputated.

The amputation of a futures future? Hmmmm 🤨

That opinion stems from one bio saying Phoenix severed the alternate future of reality 15104 ❌

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was a poor choice of wording. The statement contradicts itself.

It says "Phoenix severed the alternate future of reality 15104"

But reality 15104 was a future itself, so that would mean she severed the future of a future. 🤨

On top of that we know from the comics that it was a future of 616.

It then supports that by continuing"....from the rest of the multiverse and nudged [B]Cyclops of Earth 616 to re-open the Xavier Institute TO PREVENT THIS FUTURE FROM COMING ABOUT

The last part of the explanation then supports the comics by telling us that that future was a future of 616 and Jeans time alteration prevented reality 15104 from occurring.

So i think its safe to say that was a little grammar slip up 🙂 [/B]

It IS the same timeline that houses a broken hearted Beast as Beast became like that after the divergence point.

Its conclusively NOT however the reality Jean applied her power to to change Cyclops 616's actions.

How can Cyclops of 616 who is 150 years in the past be affected by altering the events of an amputated future that has been cut off and isolated from the rest of the multiverse?

You're not stupid, you know you're wrong on that last point 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'm not being stupid am I? 😕

Everytime i state that, he confusingly mocks the statement and makes me out to be some madman.

If Jeans manipulation perpetuated the 616 timeline then of course her actions resulted in what we're reading now. 😬

nah, not stupid at all.

unless we're BOTH stupid . . . 😬

and your interpretation of the events in the whr seem logical enough to me. and again, to restate your point -- the bois do NOT contradict the view that it WAS the 'true' future of 616.

having that future designated as a divergent timeline NOW, because it is no longer the 'real 616 future' only stands to reason. had that scan that starts with "150 years later" at the top of it said somewhere that we were viewing 15104, THEN mm could definitively declare his pov.

however, since it does NOT (nor does it say it is 616 but it seems that is the assumption almost any reader is INTENDED to make, cuz, don't forget, most 'normal' folk don't look at things as deeply as we do and it would have been written for the 'masses' who again would have interpretted it as being 616's future) there can be no way to say FOR CERTAIN that it really was 15104 from the start. bios that retroactively state it is divergent are really inconsequential because the need for a new designation for that future is self-evident. 😬

Why would Jean AMPUTATE a reality, only to repair it and then change events in 616 so that that same reality did not exist? 🤨

Thats the most ridiculous notion i've ever heard 😂

How would Jean affect 616 by applying her power to an amputated future that is NOT connected to the timestream?😕

How would Jean hear the events of 616's past by gazing into an amputated future which never experienced those events? 😕

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Quentins comments don't indicate what Grant Morrisson thinks of reality.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whose to say Quentin wasn't just being a cocky punk?

This is a cop out dogs, and you know it,
you know very well if you submit to what Quintin said,
there's absolutely NO WAY that was 616.

But you'l just dismiss that comment as "a cocky punk" talking instead, ey ptona?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And most importantly......
did Jean listen to Quentin in the end or did she grow a new future for 616?

Anywho,

Jean altered Reality 15104 (through Scott)
because the future-selves (in said Reality) of her friends were all screwed,
Wolvy died, Scott died and a whole mess was contained in there.

Now,
even though these Future-selves were not the Templates (Originals of 616)
they were still representations of said templates,
and thus they were real, living beings,
that felt just as much misery as the Templates themselves would have,
had this incident occured withIN 616.

So Jean felt bad, and decided to change that outcome.

But Jean made that decision, she didn't have to,

AGAIN, like Quentin said:

"If it was me, I'd just let it die"

..................................................................................

Cause it's just a possible Future Timeline, nothing special.

Quentin can't be talking about 616, if he is, he's an idiot,
because in Marvel, if 616 dies, all of Marvel collapses.

..................................................................................

You can't get around this dogs,
just like you can't get around the fact
that the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio
clearly states that Reality 15104 began in issue #150 the instant the story began,
NOT, I repeat ... NOT in issue #154 as you wish it did.

You also can't get around, the FACT,
that the second Bio referencing "Here Comes Tomorrow"
also states,

"In ONE Future,

Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"

..................................................................................

You want that to say 616, but it does NOT,
it clearly says, the Future OF Reality 15104. 🙂

Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, because as a divergent future, it WAS 616 up until the point of divergence.

yeah, that's a big point for me too. to say that scott's NEW choice simply creates another 'divergent' future, then seemingly leaves the 616 (the timeline from which diversions OCCUR) without a future . . .? 😕

Originally posted by Mr Master

There's no assurance that 616 would ever become 15104.

For there's a slew of Realities taking place Far beyond 150 years as we speak,
all these Realities are "Possible Future Timelines"

Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

"There is [B]a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...

The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"
[/B]

👆

It's funny how people can easily be swayed by over-sized not readable scans with a lot of rambling. However, it's what I expect from a comic vs forum.

I suppose you've swayed many with your scans to Mr M, but I've never seen you purposely try to exaggerate feats of a character or exaggerate in general. Can't say the same for GS.

The bios state that she severed an alternate future of reality 15104...NOT an alternate reality of 616. But even if we say she severed a possible future of 616, that is simply what she did. She severed one of many possible futures, which isn't going to help her get past 3, if she somehow manages to get past 2.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah, they just indicate what Morrison thinks of This Reality. (15104)
or were you under the impression that Quintin thinks for himself,
and it's not Morrison talking through him?

Got my answer, I guess you think Quintin is real? 🙂

This is a cop out dogs, and you know it,
you know very well if you submit to what Quintin said,
there's absolutely NO WAY that was 616.

But you'l just dismiss that comment as "a cocky punk" talking instead, ey ptona?

So what, the mere fact that he stated that,
confirms it could not have been 616, that's the bottomline.

Anywho,

Jean altered Reality 15104 (through Scott)
because the future-selves (in said Reality) of her friends were all screwed,
Wolvy died, Scott died and a whole mess was contained in there.

Now,
even though these Future-selves were not the Templates (Originals of 616)
they were still representations of said templates,
and thus they were real, living beings,
that felt just as much misery as the Templates themselves would have,
had this incident occured withIN 616.

So Jean felt bad, and decided to change that outcome.

But Jean made that decision, [B]she didn't have to,

AGAIN, like Quentin said:

"If it was me, I'd just let it die"

..................................................................................

Cause it's just a possible Future Timeline, nothing special.

Quentin can't be talking about 616, if he is, he's an idiot,
because in Marvel, if 616 dies, all of Marvel collapses.

..................................................................................

You can't get around this dogs,
just like you can't get around the fact
that the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio
clearly states that Reality 15104 began in issue #150 the instant the story began,
NOT, I repeat ... NOT in issue #154 as you wish it did.

You also can't get around, the FACT,
that the second Bio referencing "Here Comes Tomorrow"
also states,

"In ONE Future,

Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"

..................................................................................

You want that to say 616, but it does NOT,
it clearly says, the Future OF Reality 15104. 🙂 [/B]

Quentin said "He'd let it die" and then went on to give Jean advice on how to heal it anyway.

Your point is irrelevant, you're clutching at straws. 🙁

The only thing Jean did to reality 15104 through Scott was ensure it never existed 🙂

. “In the modern era of Earth 616, Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the Xavier Institute, unknowingly ensuring that at least one apocalyptic future would not come to fruition”

You're conclusively wrong on that point i'm afraid.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, that's a big point for me too. to say that scott's NEW choice simply creates another 'divergent' future, then seemingly leaves the 616 (the timeline from which diversions OCCUR) without a future . . .? 😕

His interpretation just doesn't make sense. 😬

Do you wanna try reconciling these gaping holes in your interpretation? 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why would Jean [B]AMPUTATE a reality, only to repair it and then change events in 616 so that that same reality did not exist? 🤨

Thats the most ridiculous notion i've ever heard 😂

How would Jean affect 616 by applying her power to an amputated future that is NOT connected to the timestream?😕

How would Jean hear the events of 616's past by gazing into an amputated future which never experienced those events? 😕 [/B]

Originally posted by leonidas

had that scan that starts with "150 years later" at the top of it said
somewhere that we were viewing 15104,

THEN mm could definitively declare his pov.

But what it does say, in the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" BIO is:

...............................................................................................

The Official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio clearly states this:

"Here Comes Tomorrow ... Earth 15104 ...

First appearance, New X-Men #150"

...............................................................................................

On Panel, it's clearly depicted on the last two pages of New X-Men #150:

...............................................................................................

AGAIN ----

Reality 15104 did NOT appear in issue #154 when Jean amputated it's future,
Reality 15104 was clearly born the instant the story jumped into the Future.

On Panel:

Page 31 of New-Xmen #150 - 150 YEARS in the Future (another Timeline)

we are in Reality 15104:

Page 32 of New X-men #150

The Phoenix Egg ... IN Reality 15104 (150 Years in the Future)

...............................................................................................

This is exactly why, it was the Future of Reality 15104 she amputated,
not of any other reality:

"In ONE Future,

Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"

..................................................................................

You want that to say 616, but it does NOT,
it clearly says, the Future OF Reality 15104.

stoned

Originally posted by leonidas
there can be no way to say FOR CERTAIN that it really was 15104 from the start.

Proven right above.

Btw. I'm done. Nothying left to prove,
yall can believe what yall wish.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
“In the modern era of Earth 616, Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the Xavier Institute, unknowingly ensuring that at least one apocalyptic future would not come to fruition”

You're conclusively wrong on that point i'm afraid.

So tell me...how does this prove him wrong?

You've been avoiding my questions for the longest time now. Everytime i ask them, they get covered up with reposts.

Go on, surprise us, show us how your interpretation makes sense by answering them. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master

I disagree, because of what Marvel established as fact.

Proven right above.

Btw. I'm done. Nothying left to prove,
yall can believe what yall wish.

You can disagree allllllll you want but nowhere in HCT is reality 15104 referenced.

Theres nothing to say that that HCT was 15104 all along. For all we know it gained the designation 15104 when Jean separated it from 616 and changed the event which created it, thereby necessitating a reality designation to distinguish it from 616 because it was no longer a continuation of it.

😄

The bios are right, they don't prove ne wrong mate.

Unfortunately the fact that they show that its either HCT OR what we're reading now shows us HCT was not a divergent timeline in the traditional sense, because if it was, then it would have existed alongside 616.

Instead Cyclops reactions resulted in one OR the other, showing HCT used to be a direct continuation.

😄

Originally posted by Air Legend
How does that prove anything wrong? I haven't responded to some of your posts because some of them are just meaningless and refute nothing.

So tell me...how does this prove him wrong?

Mr Master stated that:

Jean altered Reality 15104 (through Scott)

All Jean did through Scott was change the 616 present so that reality 15104 never existed.

Hence the reason i quoted the bio:

. “In the modern era of Earth 616, Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the Xavier Institute, unknowingly ensuring that at least one apocalyptic future would not come to fruition”

You with me now? 😕