Whenever you're ready:
Why would Jean AMPUTATE a reality, only to repair it and then change events in 616 so that that same reality did not exist? 🤨
How would Jean affect 616 by applying her power to an amputated future that is NOT connected to the timestream?😕
How would Jean hear the events of 616's past by gazing into an amputated future which never experienced those events? 😕
Originally posted by Mr Master
I noticed. 😛
😖mart:
(actually, for a second you had me thinking i was nuts . . . 😮 )
Tell it to Marvel, good friend.
a serious query: do you get what i'm saying when i say the bios are all retroactively ACCURATE?
It began in 15104, and ended in 15104.
but there is no on-panel evidence to SAY that it STARTED in 15104. and again, it doesn't make sense that morrison would start a 616 story (616 is ALWAYS the default universe unless otherwise STATED IN THE BOOK) in an alternate universe. 99.9% of readers would ASSUME the story was set in the 616 future. why would morrison have began the story in a place only .01% of readers would correctly recognize?
Admittedly, Jean did mind rape Scott in 616, at the very end.
(but this had nothing to do with applying power to any reality, just one individual)
ahh, BUT -- in applying her power to that 'one individual' she DID affect the reality/universe that followed from that action. what you are saying can be interpretted this way (if i'm interpretting wrongly, i've no doubt you'll let me know 😄 ):
you admit she dealt with 616 scott to create a new future. but, at the same time, you seem to be saying that by affecting 616 scott she did NOT affect the 616 future, but rather 616 scott's NEW actions somehow created yet ANOTHER DIVERGENT timeline. is that accurate?
if it is, my question then is this:
how does one affect the 616 future?? if directly impacting a 616 character serves only to create ANOTHER divergent timeline, then it seems (and i said this earlier) that you are implying there IS NO 616 FUTURE THAT CAN EVER EXIST. just new divergent realities everytime a choice or decision is made. if scott's decision did NOT lead to a new 616 future, does that mean that all x-books are now out of continuity?
it seems so much easier to say the hct future WAS 616's intended future, it was cut-off, it was changed with scott's decision.
to suppose otherwise implies that when scott was altered, the alteration led to a SEPERATE future -- not the 616 future. how could it if you think that were the alteration NOT made it would have led to a FUTURE that wasn't 616? it necessarily follows that everything AFTER scott's altered decision is NOT set in the 616.
The real Future doesn't exist, because it hasn't arrived yet. 🙂
we'll disagree there -- at least in the marvel world. 🙂
I agree. But the certain end of said Timeline cannot be seen,
until we reach said point in Time in the real world.
hmm, maybe not seen all the way to the end (though the end of time HAS been depicted -- the big crunch that mojo tried to create is just one example -- you'd say that story too was set in an alternate universe though, but that has the same paradoxical problem as your other interpretation) but many CAN see into the future. i don't see how you can say that the future they are seeing (at least at times) is not the 616 future . . . could toaa see the end of time? i'd think so, which implies it IS set.
Again, Marvel's 616 Timeline is in accordance with our real World timetable.
but it doesn't always HAVE to be. the writers are god and can decide to CHANGE those rules anytime they want.
You think I expected you to agree with me and not gs?
meh, stranger things have happened. 😄 and i've acknowledged the validity of your opinion -- i just don't like the complications that arise from it.
Likewise friend. 🙂
in spite of our disagreements, one thing is certain -- you make things interesting mm. 🙂
I love this section, this is the crux point.
Excellent post. 😖mart:
Originally posted by leonidas
you admit she dealt with 616 scott to create a new future. but, at the same time, you seem to be saying that by affecting 616 scott she did NOT affect the 616 future, but rather 616 scott's NEW actions somehow created yet ANOTHER DIVERGENT timeline. is that accurate?if it is, my question then is this:
how does one affect the [b]616
future?? if directly impacting a 616 character serves only to create ANOTHER divergent timeline, then it seems (and i said this earlier) that you are implying there IS NO 616 FUTURE THAT CAN EVER EXIST. just new divergent realities everytime a choice or decision is made. if scott's decision did NOT lead to a new 616 future, does that mean that all x-books are now out of continuity?it seems so much easier to say the hct future WAS 616's intended future, it was cut-off, it was changed with scott's decision.
to suppose otherwise implies that when scott was altered, the alteration led to a SEPERATE future -- not the 616 future. how could it if you think that were the alteration NOT made it would have led to a FUTURE that wasn't 616? it necessarily follows that everything AFTER scott's altered decision is NOT set in the 616.
[/B]
Originally posted by Air Legend
HCT was one of many possible futures and the bios and on panel evidence show it was a possible future of reality 15104, hence why it was called an orphan universe. The future is not set in stone because Marvel has characters like Thanos who aren't bound by destiny.
Again you are following the bio explanation, not what’s dictated in comic. Phoenix comes into the WHR with the entire future cut off. Its disinfected and treated in the first panel of page 20 issue 154.
She then manifests a Universe, not the amputee. Why would she manifest, something she was already holdings? Why would the Phoenix address the same patient in different forms (future, universe), and go off to explain what she is holdings? And most importantly how can she diverge a time line (if she is holding the future) with out the past? After all the past is needed, its where 616 Scott resides and alive.
Originally posted by Air Legend
HCT was one of many possible futures and the bios and on panel evidence show it was a possible future of reality 15104, hence why it was called an orphan universe. The future is not set in stone because Marvel has characters like Thanos who aren't bound by destiny.
Your post is answered by this one:
Originally posted by leonidas
i don't WANT it to say anything. however, you're presenting a point that is redundant to YOUR interpretation. you have said numerous times that teh terms realities and universes can be interchangeable. you've also clearly stated your notion that divergent timelines are new universes -- this is also what they are called in that timeline picture. so, of course it stands to reason then that it would say "OF REALITY 15104," because, that future -- by virtue of having NOW been replaced -- IS AN ALTERNATE/DIVERGENT/"NEW UNIVERSE".however, that does NOT mean that BEFORE it was altered, that it was not, at one time, 'the true 616 future'. again, all the bios in the world won't matter because they are all retroactively done -- the divergence has ALREADY occurred so they MUST be designated differently than 616.
When there is a retcon, do the bios refer to the previous state of affairs or do they only reference what is the case at the point the bio was written? 😕
At the point the bio was written, Here Comes Tomorrow had been cut off and then because of Jeans time alteration it was replaced, therefore making it just another future.
However the fact that it was either HCT OR the continuation of 616 that we're reading now shows you that HCT before Jeans intervention wasn't just a divergent future.
If it was, then there would have been no need for Jean to intervene as many divergent futures co-exist with the 616 present. Rachel Summers, Bishop and Cable are testament to that.
However the fact that Jeans alteration did NOT result in another divergent future, but instead the continuation of 616 proves HCT used to be the direct continuation.
Please understand that as that is no longer the case, the bios are going to reflect the status quo, which is it is one future reality.
Do you get bio stating that Jean used to be Phoenix but an editorial decision meant Jean became someone impersonated by the Phoenix? 😕
Do you get bios saying that Beyonder used to be the embodiment of another multiverse, but editors decided he was too powerful so within the comics a the story was changed and he became a cosmic cube? 😕
Or do you just get told, Jean was impersonated, Beyonder was always a cosmic cube.
I rest my case. 😄
The Bio only follow editorials of after a reality is diverged. So it is not wrong or incorrect to classify it as reality 15104 now. But classifying before, the reality is diverged is wrong. And retrospectively one needs, to grasp mechanics behind this concept.
This is putting aside, that bios should not be treated to far from fun reads.
Originally posted by leonidas
if it is, my question then is this:how does one affect the [b]616
future?? if directly impacting a 616 character serves only to create ANOTHER divergent timeline, then it seems (and i said this earlier) that you are implying there IS NO 616 FUTURE THAT CAN EVER EXIST. just new divergent realities everytime a choice or decision is made. if scott's decision did NOT lead to a new 616 future, does that mean that all x-books are now out of continuity?[/B]
Well when it comes right down to it the 616 future is determined by outside factors (but let's just say it's the TOAA). Every decision leads to an alternate future but the TOAA decides which time line is still 616 from moment to moment.
Even if Scott's decision should have lead to a divergence to an alternate time line we can assume they are anyway because the TOAA (writers, editors etc) would never drop so many ongoings into an alternate universe without mentioning it.
One other note on creating alternates. In a recent FF issue Reed found out that not every decision makes an alternate. Apparently minor choices get smoothing out by the time stream but extreme ones create an alternate.
The example they gave was (paraphrased): "If you went back in time and stopped Booth from killing Lincoln he'd go home, slip in the bath tub, crack his skull and die. In the present everyone would suddenly remember the sad story of Lincoln dying in the bath but everything would go along normally." Apparently the criterions for major change are slightly open ended.
Originally posted by Air Legend
HCT was one of many possible futures and the bios and on panel evidence show it was a possible future of reality 15104,
then why was it necessary to go back to 616 scott to alter said amputated future? did the NEW decision by 616 scott NOT affect the future of 616? if you don't think it did, then from that point on all x-books are out of continuity.
The future is not set in stone because Marvel has characters like Thanos who aren't bound by destiny.
of course he's bound by destiny. he references his 'destiny' several times in that god-awful hotu saga. he'd been DESTINED to destroy the universe, DESTINED to find the hotu. i could show the scans again, but it seems unnecessary, but there is irrefutable on-panel evidence of thanos HIMSELF stating these those things were his 'destiny'.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well when it comes right down to it the 616 future is determined by outside factors (but let's just say it's the TOAA). Every decision leads to an alternate future but the TOAA decides which time line is still 616 from moment to moment.
that's exactly what i was saying when i said the writers (toaa) have the ability to DECLARE whatever they wish.
Even if Scott's decision should have lead to a divergence to an alternate time line we can assume they are anyway because the TOAA (writers, editors etc) would never drop so many ongoings into an alternate universe without mentioning it.
if i'm understanding this correctly, this is also along the lines of what i was saying -- scott's new decision would have altered the 616 future -- to assume it only created an alternate would place everything that followed out of continuity.
cheers
(if that's not what you meant -- you suck. 😐 )
One other note on creating alternates. In a recent FF issue Reed found out that not every decision makes an alternate. Apparently minor choices get smoothing out by the time stream but extreme ones create an alternate.
The example they gave was (paraphrased): "If you went back in time and stopped Booth from killing Lincoln he'd go home, slip in the bath tub, crack his skull and die. In the present everyone would suddenly remember the sad story of Lincoln dying in the bath but everything would go along normally." Apparently the criterions for major change are slightly open ended.
that stands to reason. i used the pencil/pen example earlier as an extreme example -- and these types of issues, once looked at with this unintended level of deatil -- will ALWAYS result in open-endedness and some illogical conclusions.
Originally posted by leonidas
if i'm understanding this correctly, this is also along the lines of what i was saying -- scott's new decision would have altered the 616 future -- to assume it only created an alternate would place everything that followed out of continuity.cheers
(if that's not what you meant -- you suck. 😐 )
I don't know the details of the decision well enough but I would assume that anything where people would end up seriously discussing it probably should have made an alternate. Of course, from our position we can safely assume that it didn't (or that if it did, Scott made the "right" decision and it's still 616)
Originally posted by leonidas
that stands to reason. i used the pencil/pen example earlier as an extreme example -- and these types of issues, once looked at with this unintended level of deatil -- will ALWAYS result in open-endedness and some illogical conclusions.
😂
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't know the details of the decision well enough but I would assume that anything where people would end up seriously discussing it probably should have made an alternate. Of course, from our position we can safely assume that it didn't (or that if it did, Scott made the "right" decision and it's still 616)
👆
i don't care what everyone else says about you, you're all right in my book. 😄
Originally posted by leonidas
then why was it necessary to go back to 616 scott to alter said amputated future? did the NEW decision by [b]616 scott NOT affect the future of 616? if you don't think it did, then from that point on all x-books are out of continuity.of course he's bound by destiny. he references his 'destiny' several times in that god-awful hotu saga. he'd been DESTINED to destroy the universe, DESTINED to find the hotu. i could show the scans again, but it seems unnecessary, but there is irrefutable on-panel evidence of thanos HIMSELF stating these those things were his 'destiny'. [/B]
He chose his destiny. There is on panel evidence showing Thanos is not bound by destiny. That is irrefutable.
And Thanos was omnipotent.
Originally posted by Air Legend
What part of there are [B]many possible futures do you not get?[/b]
so you don't think there is one future for 616 that all others diverge from?
He chose his destiny.
no he didn't. he THOUGHT he had. but he was TRICKED into assuming it, as he himself acknowledged.
There is on panel evidence showing Thanos is not bound by destiny. That is irrefutable.
really? where?
And Thanos was omnipotent.
😂
right . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
really? where?
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1637/other10nk0.jpg
Originally posted by leonidas
😂right . . .
Originally posted by King Kandy
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1637/other10nk0.jpg
however, i have more recent evidence that he IS bound by destiny. thanos's statements in hotu saga trump your thanos quest scans. 🙂
Yeah, he was.
sure he was. and your proof of course is that he SAID he was . . . 🙄
old argument i won't rehash here. if you want to debate it bring up the other thread. 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
but there is no on-panel evidence to SAY that it STARTED in 15104. and again, it doesn't make sense that morrison would start a 616 story (616 is ALWAYS the default universe unless otherwise STATED IN THE BOOK) in an alternate universe. 99.9% of readers would ASSUME the story was set in the 616 future. why would morrison have began the story in a place only .01% of readers would correctly recognize?
ahh, BUT -- in applying her power to that 'one individual' she DID affect the reality/universe that followed from that action. what you are saying can be interpretted this way (if i'm interpretting wrongly, i've no doubt you'll let me know
you admit she dealt with 616 scott to create a new future. but, at the same time, you seem to be saying that by affecting 616 scott she did NOT affect the 616 future, but rather 616 scott's NEW actions somehow created yet ANOTHER DIVERGENT timeline. is that accurate?
if it is, my question then is this:
if directly impacting a 616 character serves only to create ANOTHER divergent timeline, then it seems (and i said this earlier) that you are implying there IS NO 616 FUTURE THAT CAN EVER EXIST. just new divergent realities everytime a choice or decision is made. if scott's decision did NOT lead to a new 616 future, does that mean that all x-books are now out of continuity?it seems so much easier to say the hct future WAS 616's intended future, it was cut-off, it was changed with scott's decision.
to suppose otherwise implies that when scott was altered, the alteration led to a SEPERATE future -- not the 616 future. how could it if you think that were the alteration NOT made it would have led to a FUTURE that wasn't 616? it necessarily follows that everything AFTER scott's altered decision is NOT set in the 616.
hmm, maybe not seen all the way to the end (though the end of time HAS been depicted -- the big crunch that mojo tried to create is just one example -- you'd say that story too was set in an alternate universe though, but that has the same paradoxical problem as your other interpretation) but many CAN see into the future.i don't see how you can say that the future they are seeing (at least at times) is not the 616 future . . . could toaa see the end of time? i'd think so, which implies it IS set.
Originally posted by leonidassure he was. and your proof of course is that he SAID he was . . .
He absorbed the LT/Eternity/Infinity and everything else in Time/Space easily.
He was labeled Omnipotent by the Jim Starlin.
Official Handbooks declared Thanos as GOD!!!
Originally posted by King Kandy
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1637/other10nk0.jpgYeah, he was.
