Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
I didn't need an explanation... I needed a straight forward answer. First sentence held my answer.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Well, you said you can't accept it...
Do you?
Originally posted by King Kandy
And thus Here Comes Tomorrow is an alternate future of 616.
At some point they were the same, until Scott's desicion. You just admitted it.
Again,
15104 was created by Scotts's decision (as in a NEW separate Universe was created)
But yes,
all these Alternate possible Futures (although separate) are subject (at the mercy)
of changes in 616.
That doesn't mean that they are or ever were the real 616.
That's what I'm admitting for the record, thanx. 🙂
Originally posted by Mr Master
You mis-understood me,
15104 is an alternate Future of 616, but it was never 616,
it was always 15104. (an alternate reality)Again,
15104 was created by Scotts's decision (as in a NEW separate Universe was created)But yes,
all these Alternate possible Futures (although separate) are subject (at the mercy)
of changes in 616.
That doesn't mean that they are or ever were the real 616.That's what I'm admitting for the record, thanx. 🙂
Originally posted by King Kandy
Well it came from 616. That's how it's part of 616.
I'd say no.
Originally posted by King Kandy
There was no 15104 until Scott's decision, only 616.
That's the difference.
You're assuming because Scott made his decision in 616,
15104 was 616 too, but that's a negative.
616 is the Prime Reality of Marvel,
15104 is an alternate reality of Marvel.
The ONLY reason 616 was needed,
was to catch Scott before he made his decision,
which created a New Universe in the year 2154.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually it came from Scott's decision.
I dislike analogies but ...
if I drew a picture on a piece of paper with a pen,
and then drew a different picture on another piece of paper with the same pen,
are the Two drawings the same because they were drawn with the same pen?I'd say no.
No, but we could certainly say both drawings were once the same thing (the pen) and at a cerain point were seperated.
Originally posted by Mr Master
And there was never a 616 in the year 2154 either, just Reality 15104.That's the difference.
You're assuming because Scott made his decision in 616,
15104 was 616 too, but that's a negative.616 is the Prime Reality of Marvel,
15104 is an alternate reality of Marvel.Simple.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, it's true. I can find like five quotes of you saying things like "I didn't read past the first sentence" or "the moment I saw this, I stopped reading" which is what you just said Bran was wrong for doing.
The context behind me doing that,
has absolutely nothing to do with what Bran and I were discussing.
If someone is gonna post a huge essay trying to tell me the Hulk isn't green,
and I have proof the Hulk is green,
why should I waste my time reading it?
That's along the lines of why I ignored those selective postS.
Reply to my PM, cause we're quickly reaching the point of the PM.
Originally posted by King Kandy
No, but we could certainly say
both drawings were once the same thing (the pen)
and at a cerain point were seperated.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Very simple.
It became an alternate reality when scott made his decision.
Before then there was only the 616 version,
which branched into the 15104 version.
Once more, and then, believe what you wish.
15104 was NEVER 616,
it was CREATED by a decision Scott made IN 616. Got it?
Reality 15104 didn't morph out of 616, or was detached from 616.
Reality 15104 is located 150 Years in the Future, (another point in TIME)
it is a separate Alternate New Universe (a life of it's own)
It's ONLY connection to 616 is Scott.
That's WHY Scott was the target in 616, NOT 616 itself.
Originally posted by Mr Master
You should pay more attention when throwing accusations around.The context behind me doing that,
has absolutely nothing to do with what Bran and I were discussing.If someone is gonna post a huge essay trying to tell me the Hulk isn't green,
and I have proof the Hulk is green,
why should I waste my time reading it?That's along the lines of why I ignored those selective postS.
Reply to my PM, cause we're quickly reaching the point of the PM.
Originally posted by Mr Master
But Leo, why do you assume that alternate realities (or "would be" FutureS) are out of continuity?
okay, it's tough to discuss clearly, but i'll try again:
you say the hct future is an alternate and was NEVER intended to be the 616 future. in fact, you go so far as to say the hct future was never even 616 at all. i can't disagree strongly enough with that and my reasoning falls along the same lines as kandy's does.
but, leaving that aside, we know that in order to avoid the hct future, 616 scott's decision needed to be altered. now -- here's the crux -- by your reasoning then (ie--by assuming the hct future was NEVER going to be the 'real' 616 future) if NOT altering scott's decision did NOT lead to the eventual 'real' 616 future (ie--hct future) then altering it can't lead to the 'real' future either.. which of course means that everything from the time of that decision on is NOT in continuity -- or at least is not taking place in 616. you're essentially saying that 616 scott's decisions have no impact on 616's 'real' future.
which led me to ask you -- how DOES one affect the 616 'real' future, if NOT through 616 charatcers?
i mentioned that you hit on the answer in an earlier post when you said marvel presented dozens of 'real' futures. that was exactly right. ANY alternate future that has been seperated from the 616 timeline WAS going to be the 'real' future UNTIL it branched off. until some event took place to ALTER those futures, they WERE the future.
15104 came into existence only when it branched off, which took place when scott's decision was altered. the 15104 'universe' wasn't destroyed, it was simply relegated to one of billions of 'possible futures'. but it was NOT a 'possible' future UNTIL it was severed from the main branch.
The whole discussion for over 20 pages or so was,
Jean affected the "real" Future of 616,
because she touched Scott in Present 616 to affect said Future.
and that's accurate. were scott's decisions NOT altered, he and the universe around him would have followed a path that led directly to the hct future -- that future would have been the 'real' future of 616. (of course, we can sit here and say any number of things in the MU could have still prevented the hct future, but only RETROACTIVELY. otherwise we can't say for certain that every action taken wasn't MEANT to happen on the way to the hct future.)
I was just showing you what I've been arguing from the beginning,
"Here Comes Tomorrow" was Never a special case,
or the "absolute definite" Future of 616,
and I proved it, conclusively.
i don't think i ever claimed it was 'special' in any way. ANY 'possible' 616 future was at one point the 'intended' future. why bother writing it if there was never the danger that an apocalyptic future would never be reached anyway??
All I wanna read is,
I agree based on the irrefutable evidence,
that "Here Comes Tomorrow" was not the definite Future of 616,
because EVIDENTLY, there are MANY supposed "definite FutureS" connected to 616.
and each of those 'supposed definite futures' WERE the intended futures UNTIL they were PREVENTED from being brought about. honestly, i don't see how you can logically see it any other way. 😬
whew . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
okay, it's tough to discuss clearly, but i'll try again:
Originally posted by leonidas
you say the hct future is an alternate
and was NEVER intended to be the 616 future.
What I did emphasize is, that it was never a definite Future,
even without the alteration.
This is why the "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio tells us,
Scott's decision in the end ensured that atleast ONE Future would not come to fruition.
See Leo, even reading it to myself,
I clearly see how they point out it was still not an absolute Future,
this is why Scott ensured it's fate.
It was always a possibility ... but never something absolute,
but Scott changing his mind, absolutely ensured it not being even a possibility.
Originally posted by leonidas
in fact, you go so far as to say the hct future was never even 616 at all.
It was always 15104, from beginning to end.
Originally posted by leonidas
i can't disagree strongly enough with that
Originally posted by leonidas
but, leaving that aside,
we know that in order to avoid the hct future,
616 scott's decision needed to be altered.
No different than "What If's" ...
I'm sure you know that's exactly how "What If" UniverseS are created.
By an occurrence back on 616,
but does this make "What if's" Realities 616?
I'm sure you'l agree to say no.
Originally posted by leonidas
now -- by your reasoning then
(ie--by assuming the hct future was NEVER going to be the 'real' 616 future)
if NOT altering scott's decision did NOT lead to the eventual 'real' 616 future (ie--hct future) then altering it can't lead to the 'real' future either. which of course means that everything from the time of that decision on is NOT in continuity -- or at least is not taking place in 616.
What I've continued to say,
is that 15104 was NOT a definite Future ... that is all for the record. 🙂
I already stated numerous times,
that yes, Scott's decision (on 616) did in fact impact 15104.
The question is Why?
Simple, because Scott was in 616 when he made his first decision,
that resulted in the Creation of a New Universe labeled 15104.
So obviously, in order to alter 15104 all together,
Scott needed to change his mind before he made his first decision.
And well, he made that first decision in 616 ...
so where else was he supposed to change his mind?
In 616, where he was before his first decision.
That explanation harmonizes imo.
Originally posted by leonidas
you're essentially saying that 616 scott's decisions have no impact on 616's 'real' future.
So a better way to phrase that is,
Scott never impacted 616's definite 'real' Future
(because we simply don't know which one is the definitive future)
BUT,
Scott's decision definitely affected ONE of 616's possible FutureS. (15104)
Originally posted by leonidas
which led me to ask you -- how DOES one affect the 616 'real' future,
if NOT through 616 charatcers?
Pardon me, if I confused you by not elaborating sufficiently.
Originally posted by leonidas
i mentioned that you hit on the answer in an earlier post when you said marvel presented dozens of 'real' futures. that was exactly right. ANY alternate future that has been seperated from the 616 timeline WAS going to be the 'real' future UNTIL it branched off. until some event took place to ALTER those futures, they WERE the future.
Yes, Any alternate Future is possibly the 'real' Future,
but none of them are absolutes.
Even without the alteration, it's still just a possibility according to Marvel.
Best On Panel example I have is this On Panel evidence which you already seen:
................................................................................................................
Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)
"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...
The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"
.................................................................................................................
If the GOTG Future is just ONE possibility,
and they made an entire run out of that title,
do we really have to entertain other theories?
Not imo.
Originally posted by leonidas
15104 came into existence only when it branched off,
which took place when scott's decision was altered.
15104 was Created 3 issues before in #150
before Scott's decision was altered in issue #154
Originally posted by leonidas
the 15104 'universe' wasn't destroyed,
it was simply relegated to one of billions of 'possible futures'.
but it was NOT a 'possible' future UNTIL it was severed from the main branch.
15104 was in action and kicking on it's own since issue #150
and it had nothing to do with any decision changing that took place in #154.
Originally posted by leonidas
and that's accurate.
were scott's decisions NOT altered,
he and the universe around him would have followed a path that led directly to the hct future -- that future would have been the 'real' future of 616.
(of course, we can sit here and say any number of things in the MU could have still prevented the hct future, but only RETROACTIVELY. otherwise we can't say for certain that every action taken wasn't MEANT to happen on the way to the hct future.)
So I know it's not accurate.
Again, and for the last time really:
Reality 15104 was created when Scott decided to leave the X-Men and Emma,
BACK in issue #150, after Jean died in the end of that issue.
...............................................................................................
The Official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio clearly states this:
"Here Comes Tomorrow ... Earth 15104 ...
First appearance, New X-Men #150"
...............................................................................................
ON PANEL confirmation:
Jean dies: (page New X-Men #150 Page 30)
...............................................................................................
Reality 15104 is Created:
Page 31 of New-Xmen #150 - 150 YEARS in the Future (another Timeline)
we are in Reality 15104:
Page 32 of New X-men #150
The Phoenix Egg ... IN Reality 15104 (150 Years in the Future)
...............................................................................................
And it is Reality 15104, although it's not mentioned here,
we know it because that's what the "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio tells us. (above)
Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think i ever claimed it was 'special' in any way. ANY 'possible' 616 future was at one point the 'intended' future. why bother writing it if there was never the danger that an apocalyptic future would never be reached anyway??
Originally posted by leonidas
and each of those 'supposed definite futures' WERE the intended futures UNTIL they were PREVENTED from being brought about.
honestly, i don't see how you can logically see it any other way.
Originally posted by leonidas
whew . . .
Even if I was to admit that, Jean amputated the future of a reality. It still does not refute my initial claim that spawned this entire debate. The Manifestation of the entire universe.
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5272/newxmenv115420sf3.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7343/newxmenv115421ah0.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/715/newxmenv115422hm0.jpg
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6696/newxmenv115423ho8.jpg
Above is the proper order, of what occurred in HCT the moment Jean entered the WHR.
#154 page 20, panel one.
Upon entering the WHR, the future is already amputated and treated. Jean is acknowledging what she holds in the palm of her had “The Entire Future of a Reality”.
Jean: Some Kind of intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue….I…Had to amputate the whole future.
Phoenix: Phoenix Disinfection Completed.
Jean: Now What?
Their was no need to re-materialize something she is already holdings. The Future is treated, done finish. Now Jean and the Phoenix contemplate on what lead to the horrific future of HCT. Jean decides her friends deserved better. But wait, EVEN if you regard HCT at this point a possible future it stems from where? The 616 reality. And as the comic depicts, what does Jean do? Manifest the Universe prior to the amputations (the whole future from 150 years and on ward was cut off as the comic states). Which happens to be what now? The 616 reality. Who is she going to manipulate so a possible future does not take place? 616 Scott who resides within that universe.
#154 page 21 panel 3
What does the Phoenix State she is holding now?
Phoenix: A badly wounded orphan universe.
#154 page 22 panel 4
Why is she manifesting the Universe? To intervene in Scott decision in the year 2004.
Jean: Live Scott
154 page 23 & 24
Reality 616. Scott decision alters the future, even if its one out of a million possible futures.
Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - Alternate Universes 2005 - Page 19
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7360/19hb8.jpg
How can we be sure, that it was the 616 reality she held in the palm of her hand? Because events took place in the 616 reality, unless its stated other wise by the comic. Or if you place much faith in the bio, it states the she healed the “Universe” by intervening with “616” Scott.
X-Men_-_Messiah_Complex_-_Mutant_Files_028.
And the most recent Official Bio adds the ability to atomically control the universe through telekinesis in its profile. Take a wild guess where they are citing such feat?
we've been over so much of this already that i'll address just a couple points:
Yes, Any alternate Future is possibly the 'real' Future,
but none of them are absolutes.
i disagree -- each 'possible' was at one time THE future. once something occurred to keep it from coming it is severed from 616 and becomes just a possible. it can again BECOME the future, but only if events somehow realign it with 616.
Even without the alteration, it's still just a possibility according to Marvel.Best On Panel example I have is this On Panel evidence which you already seen:
If the GOTG Future is just ONE possibility,
and they made an entire run out of that title,
do we really have to entertain other theories?Not imo.
mm, i am in utter agreement with you about their being MULTIPLE possible futures. however, gotg is NOT the 616 universe. it's . . . what? 691 or something?? 691 was at one time 616, but something happened at some point in teh 616 timeline and caused 691 to diverge. from the divergence onward it becomes its own universe. prior to diverging though, it was 616. seriously, is there anyone out there reading this that disagrees with this?? (present company aside, mm 🙂 )
Not only do I disagree, but this is definitely wrong.15104 was Created 3 issues before in #150
before Scott's decision was altered in issue #154
it was 616 at that point.
Again, Not true.
15104 was in action and kicking on it's own since issue #150
and it had nothing to do with any decision changing that took place in #154.
again, it was 616 BEFORE it was 15104, so of course it was alive and kicking. again, all the bios are retroactively accurate. marvel can declare 15104's beginning wherever they wish -- prior to it being 15104 though it was 616.
here's a simple question: you believe (i think) that a "possible" future of 616 is a future that has diverged from the main 616 timeline, correct?
if that is correct, then explain to me what you think would happen if the alteration in the 616 timeline that CAUSED the future to diverge, never occurred?
(my view -- without diverging, it REMAINS the 616 'real' future because that was where it came from. all 'possible' futures were 'real' futures up until the moment they diverged, at which point they BECOME 'possible' futures.)
from what i've read, you think that even if the alteration NEVER occurs, the future still remains just 'possible'. but no 'possible' future can have the 616 designation, so how would they become the 616 future? would the 2 universes collapse somehow? merge?
the other thing -- for a future to be designated, we need to know about its being possible. we can't do that unless someone comes back to tell us. if we don't know, and we can't avoid it or keep it from coming, it ARRIVES -- ie -- it becomes the true future.
my brain is done. this really was entertaining. 🙂
Darn, this page has been wrecked with these ridiculous over-sized scans,
cats think if they shove info in your face it somehow makes it more impressing,
when in fact, it just messes up the page.
Please, yall, use normal thumbs ... otherwise your posts become overbearing.
Originally posted by leonidasi disagree -- each 'possible' was at one time THE future. once something occurred to keep it from coming it is severed from 616 and becomes just a possible.
it can again BECOME the future, but only if events somehow realign it with 616.
But Marvel clearly designated "Here Comes Tomorrow" as an Alternate Universe,
the second it jumped 150 years in the Future.
That's what separates it from 616, the fact that it's taking place in the Future,
while 616 is existing in the Present.
Can't be both at the same time.
Originally posted by leonidasmm, i am in utter agreement with you about their being MULTIPLE possible futures. however, gotg is NOT the 616 universe. it's . . . what? 691 or something??
691 was at one time 616, but something happened at some point in teh 616 timeline and caused 691 to diverge. from the divergence onward it becomes its own universe. prior to diverging though, it was 616. seriously, is there anyone out there reading this that disagrees with this?? (present company aside, mm )
The divergence creates an entirely NEW separate Reality,
that resembles 616, but is Not.
Originally posted by leonidasit was 616 at that point.
Again, Not true.
It was never 616, because it was never in existence.
The only reason it's in existence was because Scott created it.
So again, what I said is true.
Originally posted by leonidasagain, it was 616 BEFORE it was 15104, so of course it was alive and kicking.
Again, 15104 is a brand New Reality.
This is why Quentin (Morrison speakin) could care less about Reality 15104:
"If it was me, I'd just let it die"
....................................................................................................
That's Quintin talking about This:
....................................................................................................
Would Quintin ever have the nerve to state,
"I'll just let the 616 Reality die"? 😆 (yea, so ALL of Marvel can die)
That's a preposterous notion.
Originally posted by leonidasagain, all the bios are retroactively accurate.
marvel can declare 15104's beginning wherever they wish --
prior to it being 15104 though it was 616.
15104 was never 616, it was always 15104.
If you wish to dismiss it's own Official Bio, that's on you.
But the Fact is:
...............................................................................................
"Here Comes Tomorrow ... Earth 15104 ...
First appearance, New X-Men #150"
...............................................................................................
If 15104 was 616,
then ALL "What ifs" were 616 too. (a lot of 616's ey)
Originally posted by leonidashere's a simple question:
you believe (i think)
that a "possible" future of 616
is a future that has diverged from the main 616 timeline, correct?
Originally posted by leonidasif that is correct,
then explain to me what you think would happen
if the alteration in the 616 timeline that CAUSED the future to diverge,
never occurred?
When in fact,
only a single being in 616 needs to act to to create a diverged Universe.
It wasn't the 616 Reality that created 15104,
it was Scott, and ONLY Scott.
He made a decision,
and that created an entire New Universe in the year 2154 in an instant.
That New Universe was subject to Scott's decision,
so,
if Scott changes his decision before he made it,
then obviously that New Universe gets altered/nulled.
Simple.
Originally posted by leonidas(my view -- without diverging,
it REMAINS the 616 'real' future because that was where it came from.
And again, there was NO 15104 before Scott's decision,
so in fact, there never was a 'real 616 (as in 15104) Future' to begin with, like ever.
Marvel writers can Not place a story in the Past or Future,
without locating said story in a separate alternate reality.
Because again,
it's impossible for 616 to exist in Two separate points in Time.
Originally posted by leonidasall 'possible' futures were 'real' futures up until the moment they diverged,
at which point they BECOME 'possible' futures.)
No absolutes.
The "real" Future of 616 is unknown, until it's reached in real time.
Originally posted by leonidasfrom what i've read,
you think that even if the alteration NEVER occurs,
the future still remains just 'possible'.
Originally posted by leonidasbut no 'possible' future can have the 616 designation,
so how would they become the 616 future?
would the 2 universes collapse somehow? merge?
What I do know is that every single story that I have ever read
(concerning possible FutureS of 616)
begin in an alternate Reality.
Originally posted by leonidasthe other thing -- for a future to be designated,
we need to know about its being possible.
we can't do that unless someone comes back to tell us.
if we don't know, and we can't avoid it or keep it from coming,
it ARRIVES -- ie -- it becomes the true future.
I (who delve especially in Cosmic stories) been knowing for years,
that ALL possible Futures are located in separate alternate Realities.
The ignorance of cats new to comics is not my problem. (not you)
Originally posted by leonidas
my brain is done. this really was entertaining. 🙂
You can reply, but I'm truly done here.
And yea, it was you I enjoyed this thread the most with,
others are 😏 ... well, let's just say you're not a brick wall imo. 🙂
Besides, this page is very annoying to scroll down on. (silly monster scans)
Originally posted by Mr MasterBut seriously, Jean did repair Reality 15104's Future atomically,
although, she needed to be in the WHR (Hospital for realities) to perform this task.
Absolute rubbish. 🙂
Jean materialised the universe within her palm via telekinesis as illustrated by the Consciousness' reference to Jeans "telekinetic control of all of those atoms" as the universe appearred in her palm.
Nowhere on panel was it stated that Jean got a power up from being in the crystal. It was JUST stated to be her telekinesis. Therefore you can't state that opinion as fact.
And given that OUTSIDE the crystal Jean TELEKINETICALLY amputated a future, which in itself involves manipulation of matter on a universal scale it is completely feasible that Jean achieved the feat through telekinesis.
On top of that, her latest profile updated her powerset by stating that she can telekinetically manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale. So your opinion is conclusively NOT the case 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStormAbsolute rubbish.
Jean materialised the universe within her palm via telekinesis as illustrated by the Consciousness' reference to Jeans "telekinetic control of all of those atoms" as the universe appearred in her palm.
Nowhere on panel was it stated that Jean got a power up from being in the crystal. It was JUST stated to be her telekinesis. Therefore you can't state that opinion as fact.
And given that OUTSIDE the crystal Jean TELEKINETICALLY amputated a future, which in itself involves manipulation of matter on a universal scale it is completely feasible that Jean achieved the feat through telekinesis.
On top of that, her latest profile updated her powerset by stating that she can telekinetically manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale. So your opinion is conclusively NOT the case
This thread is dead, (everything's been said)
so have fun in stroking yourself with delusions of Phoenix.
Everyone knows the Pheonix Force is a unversal power, whoopi doo,
I've never said otherwise.
The rest of what you added to the feat,
is simple exaggerations that have been taking place,
under you screen name since 2005.
But, you go girl. 🙄
Originally posted by Mr Master
15104 was not severed,
it's Future was.So the Future of 15104,
was severed from 15104.15104 itself was only altered
due to Scott's decision.
Nope. Your whole argument is based on faulty wording within a bio.
It starts of by saying the alternate future of reality 15104 was severed, which understandably would lead you to believe what you do, however it then goes on to say that Phoenix then nudged 616 Cyclops to stop that future from ever coming about which supports the point that 15104 was just a divergent future of 616.
You can't agree that 15104 is a future of 616 and at the same time state that 15104 is a fully fledged reality of its own.
In Marvel there are no fully fledged realities of their own, there are only alternate realities which diverge from the 616 timeline.
They are branches from the 616 tree. Go back down these alternate realities past the point of divergence and you're back in 616.
Why? Because theyre just divergent realities. Branches off the 616 tree.
There are no completely independent realities in Marvels multiverse. Such realities would be parallel realities and as stated none of those exist in the Marvel multiverse.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually everything you post is rubbish, always has been, always will be.This thread is dead, (everything's been said)
so have fun in stroking yourself with delusions of Phoenix.Everyone knows the Pheonix Force is a unversal power, whoopi doo,
I've never said otherwise.The rest of what you added to the feat,
is simple exaggerations that have been taking place,
under you screen name since 2005.But, you go girl. 🙄
Throughout this thread your fallacy has been highlighted and your opinions rubbished. 🙂
Counter arguments (as in this case) were met with repost and smilie infused waffle.
Countless questions have been sent your way, left unanswered and will likely remain so because your argument is sheer fantasy. jester
You can't hang with me son, you just don't have the know how. 🙂
