WC Phoenix runs a mini DC gauntlet!

Instead of just performing her role, Jean let her human side take over and became too emotionally involved with her native reality, she got involved in situations she should not have and whilst trying to appeal to Xorneto’s kinder side she was killed:

As a result of her inaction, Cyclops heartbroken and grief ridden, abandoned Emma and then this lead to the formation of what would later be called reality 15104, Here Comes Tomorrow:

616 was never meant to diverge into reality 15104:

Cassandra Nova noted that the universe was broken and that there was a point in time which lead to this apocalyptic future:

The comic then goes back to the present(616) to show us what that divergent point was:

150 years earlier and it has taken us back to 616. If it was a totally different reality it would have said so. If it was a totally different reality then why would the comic show a direct link with 616?

Because 15104 is NOT a separate parallel reality, it is a divergent future, meaning it IS 616 until a divergence point, an event not meant to happen causes reality to splinter off.

Jean Grey was reborn into reality to rectify her error. However her premature awakening at the hands of Sublime lead her to be disoriented and she forgot her mission:

Jean had her connection to the Phoenix Consciousness rebooted and this awakened her to what her true purpose was:

Jean proceeded to disinfect that future of Sublime

Jean telekinetically cuts away the WHOLE future:

She asks the Consciousness if this future she has just away is THE future i.e is that what her native reality 616 is destined to go through.

The Consciousness replies and referring to the amputated future says "This is NOW!" i.e that is what is currently in store for 616.

The Consciousness blames Jean for 616 being destined to that fate and basically says that she lost track of her duties she became too “emotionally engaged”

Jean gets distressed and says my friends don’t deserve that” (This is Jean of 616, if this was a different reality why would she call the people within her friends and be so concerned about their future?)

i.e her friends don’t deserve to be fated to go through a future like Here Comes Tomorrow.

The Consciousness gives her a solution. It tells her to “Turn around”, it says “Here, Before, Always” (Referring to the nature of the White Hot Room within the M’kraan crystal, how it doesn’t obey the laws of time/space.)

Jean looks around and sees the M’kraan crystal.

(As this is happening the Here Comes Tomorrow future in Jeans hand is carried away by a birdlike black claw.)

It refers to the White Hot Room within the crystal as the hospital.

It tells Jean to heal the wound in the “hospital” (She has after all just “amputated” part of the timeline) by growing it a new future.

As previously mentioned, Jeans early awakening left her disoriented, even after her reboot, she still seems confused and whilst being shown using her powers still doesn’t seem to know exactly what she’s doing.

An explanation for this was provided by Jean earlier on in the series. Jean talks of how the Phoenix Consciousness talks to her(as we see throughout the White Hot Room) scene and when things get too much for her, it “replaces her” i.e it takes the reins and takes charge of her body. That explains why Jean appears to use her powers, yet doesn’t know what she’s doing at points.

Within the White Hot Room Jean is surrounded by the other avatars.

The Consciousness says in the first panel that “telekinetic control of all of those atoms isn’t as easy as it looks in training”

Jean demonstrates how she’s a straight A student by manifesting the 616 universe within the palm of her hand with no discernible effort, having total control of its atomic structure.

(There used to be talk about how this wasn’t a universe or when that was disproven that she could only do it inside the White Hot Room, but bearing in mind that on the previous page from OUTSIDE the White Hot Room, Jean had just telekinetically amputated and carried away the future of the 616 universe and given that there was no mention of an alleged empowerment, such comments are unfounded and must be struck off as speculation.)

Confirming the feat, Jeans official bio was updated to include within her powerset the ability to manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale:

Being disoriented from her premature awakening from her Phoenix egg Jean questions what she’s there to do and the Consciousness reasserts that she needs to fix the universe.

Containing the universes atomic structure within her palm, Jean gazes into it still unsure of her task.

She hears words from within the 616 timeline. “Every diamond has a flaw” “Are these words from the future” (All of these contained within the pages of New X-men thereby giving yet more proof that the reality she manifested and hold in her hand within the crystal was 616:

Prof X: “Are these words from the future?”

Quentin Quire tells her that if she wants to grow a new future to replace the one she cut away she must water it with her hearts blood, i.e she must sever all emotional links with the 616 reality so that she can perform her Phoenix Work.

Quentin mutters that he’d just let the universe die, indicating how little any one reality is in the scheme of things to a Phoenix.

Jean ignores him; she gazes into the reality in her hand and says “Live Scott Live”

This application of power resulted in 616 Cyclops changing his reaction to Emma, once again confirming that reality she manifested within the crystal as 616.

As i've shown, divergent futures are conclusively NOT totally separate realities and as such your interpretation canNOT be the case.

Another area i think you're getting confused is where me and ID39 say that reality 15104 came into place when Jean amputated.

We don't mean thats where it was suddenly created because it was created the moment Cyclops abandoned Emma, however it wasn't until it was cut off from the rest of the multiverse, that the designation was given.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I think you’ve lost track of what’s being argued here Mr Master.

I’m not saying that two different points in time existed in the same place, no one is, so why you keep repeating that statement I really do not know.

You are arguing that Here Comes Tomorrow was a completely separate reality. It was NOT.

It is a divergent future which IS 616 up until a point of divergence. Once again think of 616 as the main trunk of a tree and think of reality 15104 as a branch off from that main trunk.

Before the point of divergence (which for reality 15104 was Scott’s reaction to Emma) you have 616. That is what makes 15104 a future OF 616. If it was a completely separate reality then Here Comes Tomorrow wouldn’t have had anything to do with 616 characters, it would not have been a future of 616.

I think your perceptions of what alternate realities/futures are and the structure of a timeline is flawed, so allow me to present a comic scan which visualizes it:

616 as illustrated here is the main timeline. It is the trunk of the multiversal structure. Time and events are set in stone, so when an event either in the past or the present is changed from what it is supposed to be, then reality diverges from the main trunk and an alternate timeline is born.

These divergent timelines aren’t separate trees; they are branches off of a tree. That is where you are going wrong.

So if you cut away that divergent timeline, then all you are left with is 616.

The timeline is [B]a stream from one point in time to another, so by holding the amputated Here Comes Tomorrow future Jean would NOT have been able to hear events from the past of 616 as she’s holding an isolated piece of timeline that doesn’t flow into 616.

It’s like downloading a video from the internet only for your internet connection to be cut. As you’re no longer connected to the source, all you can watch is the chunk you’ve got on your hard drive; you can’t watch the rest of the movie because the stream of data from the source to your PC has been cut off. [/B]

suicide1wa

Originally posted by Inhuman
suicide1wa

nopity

I see this what the good old days between you guys were...

Anyway GS where do you think she stops in the gauntlet.

The grave mistake I see in Mr. M claims is tagging me ,with the idea that either two timelines are taking at the same time or two points in time are occupying the same slot in a time line. Which is incorrect.

If you want to view 616 history as a timeline. Then we acknowledge what a timeline is. Which is a line used to represent recorded history up until the present (in real life standards).

Remember, HCT clearly labels 150 years have progressed. So to view HCT in future tense, is incorrect up until, Phoenix intervenes with its past. Which means, HCT is occupying the present slot in the timeline. Or as the Phoenix states “The Future is Now”.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Where is/was the Present-day (year 2004 at the time) 616 Universe,
while Here Comes Tomorrow was taking place 150 years later?

Here Comes Tomorrow was occupying the present time slot. Planet X at this time was occupying the past time slot, since 150 years of history has progressed.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Either you're in the Present (current 616 Timeline)
or you're in the Past/Future (Other Timelines)

This claim is wrong in so many level’s. Two timelines can not exist in in a single universe. Past events can not be labeled in a different timeline. Just different Time slot, according to its placement in the timeline.

Does the Arc “Blood Ties” take place in a different timeline? NO. What about “Fatal Attractions”? No. “X-Cutioner”? No they all pertain to the same 616 timeline, occupying their designated spot in reference to its history of when they occurred.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

We don't mean thats where it was suddenly created because it was created the moment Cyclops abandoned Emma, however it wasn't until it was cut off from the rest of the multiverse, that the designation was given.

Not according to Marvel comics. 🙂

Either you're in the Present (current 616 Timeline)
or you're in the Past/Future (Other Timelines)

Like GOTG for instance,
they reside in Reality 691 (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

Why is the Future or Past of 616 located in separate Timeline? (good question)

Because TWO separate points in Time can NOT occupy the same space.
(simple answer with simple physics)

Notice the term ... "Time ... line"
(a designation in a line representing separate points in Time)

150 Years into the Future of 616 is, well ... 150 years beyond the Present,
which is exactly why,
the instant Morrison decided to place his story in the Future,
he was forced to locate the designation of said story in a separate Timeline.

Hence:

(excerpt from the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio)

"Here Comes Tomorrow ... Earth 15104 ... First appearance, New X-Men #150"

...............................................................................................

You may spin the "Here Comes Tomorrow" bio,
or make up some story to dismiss it,
but it's there for all to see and read.

...............................................................................................

Reality 15104 did NOT appear in issue #154 when Jean amputated it's future,
Reality 15104 was clearly born the instant the story jumped into the Future.

On Panel confirmation:

Page 31 of New-Xmen #150 - 150 YEARS in the Future (another Timeline)

we are in Reality 15104:

Page 32 of New X-men #150

The Phoenix Egg ... IN Reality 15104 (150 Years in the Future)

Just like the Official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio states. 🙂

Originally posted by Inhuman
suicide1wa

Btw ... I'm with ya ... 7900f44c82a964c25f448263bcfaa7a6

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

I think your perceptions of what alternate realities/futures are and the structure of a timeline is flawed, so allow me to present a comic scan which visualizes it:

Let's show the onlookers the scan you left out that spits on that theory.

That diagram above is based on "Kang's Third Law of Time"

What does Reed say, on the very NEXT Page of your silly diagram:

"I know intimately that Kang is a LIAR ...

and His Laws aren't entirely to be trusted"

swank ... Nice try, as usual.

Did you just repost the same pre typed explanation? Whatever anyhow.

Explanations are from, Solar: Man of the Atom volume 2 issue #1

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1967/07dk0.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7213/08kw3.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3236/09fg4.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1884/10yz5.jpg

Solar: Revelations
Every time the timeline is interfered with, it spawns a new parallel reality with its own new time line.

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/5572/36lc8.jpg

Granted this comic is not from marvel comics, but its explanation concords with what is shown in the given subject. I stand by my claims (as its shown in the comic) that 150 years of history progressed in the 616 timeline that lead to a chaotic Apocalyptic world dubbed “Here Comes Tomorrow”.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4042/xm15031es8.jpg

Before Phoenix ascended to the White Hot Room, HCT occupied the “current/present time slot in the 616 timeline. However once Phoenix manifested the “Wounded Orphan Universe”, it was through that universe that Jean interfered with 616 past, and manipulated 616 Scott to prevent 150 years worth of history that would eventually lead to “HCT”.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2428/j4iw6.jpg

Because of those actions, HCT from then on is no longer part of the 616 timeline. It is now belongs to a parallel reality, with its own timeline.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Upto your old tricks again, aren't ya Pino?

Let's show the onlookers the scan you left out that spits on that theory.

That diagram above is based on "Kang's Third Law of Time"

What does Reed say, on the very NEXT Page of your silly diagram:

"I know intimately that [B]Kang is a LIAR ...

and His Laws aren't entirely to be trusted"

swank ... Nice try, as usual. [/B]

Good try Emmie, but what Reed actually says is that not all changes in events will result in a divergent timeline, some changes are small enough to be worked out by the timeline itself and 616 will carry on without diverging:

So unless you're now arguing that Here Comes Tomorrow was actually 616 i really would learn to read and comprehend scans before commenting on them.

And on top of that Kangs law still stands, it just doesn't always happen. But as we know Here Comes Tomorrow was a divergent future anyway, your rebuttal was somewhat pointless. 🙁

blowup

Once again i'm accused of deceit and once again its because Emmie neglects to read the comic properly before flapping. 😬

So just to clarify, this still stands:

I think you’ve lost track of what’s being argued here Mr Master.

I’m not saying that two different points in time existed in the same place, no one is, so why you keep repeating that statement I really do not know.

You are arguing that Here Comes Tomorrow was a completely separate reality. It was NOT.

It is a divergent future which IS 616 up until a point of divergence. Once again think of 616 as the main trunk of a tree and think of reality 15104 as a branch off from that main trunk.

Before the point of divergence (which for reality 15104 was Scott’s reaction to Emma) you have 616. That is what makes 15104 a future OF 616. If it was a completely separate reality then Here Comes Tomorrow wouldn’t have had anything to do with 616 characters, it would not have been a future of 616.

I think your perceptions of what alternate realities/futures are and the structure of a timeline is flawed, so allow me to present a comic scan which visualizes it:

616 as illustrated here is the main timeline. It is the trunk of the multiversal structure. Time and events are set in stone, so when an event either in the past or the present is changed from what it is supposed to be, then reality diverges from the main trunk and an alternate timeline is born.

These divergent timelines aren’t separate trees; they are branches off of a tree. That is where you are going wrong.

So if you cut away that divergent timeline, then all you are left with is 616.

The timeline is [B]a stream from one point in time to another, so by holding the amputated Here Comes Tomorrow future Jean would NOT have been able to hear events from the past of 616 as she’s holding an isolated piece of timeline that doesn’t flow into 616.

It’s like downloading a video from the internet only for your internet connection to be cut. As you’re no longer connected to the source, all you can watch is the chunk you’ve got on your hard drive; you can’t watch the rest of the movie because the stream of data from the source to your PC has been cut off.

By holding an amputated future Jean would not be able to apply her power to it to cause changes 150 years back in the present (616) because the timeline is isolated and doesn’t flow into the main 616 timestream since Jean cut it off after the divergence point.

Your interpretation is conclusively wrong, because you’re trying to argue reality 15104 was a completely separate universe and as a DIVERGENT FUTURE that is absolutely not the case. It is just a branch off of 616.[/B]

Your interpretation regarding the White Hot Room is CONCLUSIVELY because your understanding of what an alternate timeline is was flawed.

You have now been enlightened.

Now you can see why your interpretation makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. jester

Good day to you! wavey

3 if not 4

An alternate timeline diverged from 616 is NOT an entirely separate reality. It IS 616 up until the point of divergence whereby it sprouts off from the main 616 timeline like a branch from the main 616 trunk.

By amputating the Here Comes Tomorrow future as stated, through it, Jean could NOT have made changes to 616 and she could NOT have heard events from 616 through this amputated future.

WHY?

Because the timestream is a flow of time from one point to another. Jean amputated the timeline from before the divergence point(Scotts reaction to Emma) and carried away that future.

Therefore with time not flowing from the HCT future timeline into 616, with it being an isolated timeline, she could not affect 616 through it and she could NOT hear events through it that happened BEFORE the point of divergence which created 616 in the first place. 🙂

isn't Future Imperfect set 100yrs in to the future of 616?
so, shouldn't we be expecting Surfer, Thor and co to all die at some point in the intervening time?

I'm going with the idea that anything set in the 'future' is just a variant of alternative realities. obeying the basic relations of 616 but then extrapolating them out or introducing new factors, in ways that cannot be taken as destined for 616 (present).