Superman vs Black Adam(punchfest)

Originally posted by Stoic
Is Captain Marvel as powerful as Superman, or is it that he appears that way when they fight due to his magical nature? Can Marvel actually lift as much as Superman, take as much abuse, fire lasers out of his eyes, use telescopic vision, see different spectrum's of energy, use freeze breath. The only thing I thing that Marvel has on Superman, is speed (maybe), and the wisdom of Solomon. Oh and he has better magical defenses. is this at all correct?

Originally posted by Stoic
Is Captain Marvel as powerful as Superman, or is it that he appears that way when they fight due to his magical nature? Can Marvel actually lift as much as Superman, take as much abuse, fire lasers out of his eyes, use telescopic vision, see different spectrum's of energy, use freeze breath. The only thing I thing that Marvel has on Superman, is speed (maybe), and the wisdom of Solomon. Oh and he has better magical defenses. is this at all correct?

Captain Marvel has stalemated Superman in a contest of strength plenty of times. I just don't think either of them have an edge against the other minus Captain Marvel bringing magic to the game. Hell, there was a time Captain Marvel and Superman shared bodies and Superman was mind boggled at the amount of power Captain Marvel has at his possession. Captain Marvel can also shoot blast as well. They are pretty much equals except Marvel just have that magic that he brings to the table.

In a fight, I would give Marvel the edge.

Originally posted by carver9
Captain Marvel has stalemated Superman in a contest of strength plenty of times. I just don't think either of them have an edge against the other minus Captain Marvel bringing magic to the game. Hell, there was a time Captain Marvel and Superman shared bodies and Superman was mind boggled at the amount of power Captain Marvel has at his possession. Captain Marvel can also shoot blast as well. They are pretty much equals except Marvel just have that magic that he brings to the table.

In a fight, I would give Marvel the edge.

Originally posted by carver9
Captain Marvel has stalemated Superman in a contest of strength plenty of times. I just don't think either of them have an edge against the other minus Captain Marvel bringing magic to the game. Hell, there was a time Captain Marvel and Superman shared bodies and Superman was mind boggled at the amount of power Captain Marvel has at his possession. Captain Marvel can also shoot blast as well. They are pretty much equals except Marvel just have that magic that he brings to the table.

In a fight, I would give Marvel the edge.

you just copy and paste nowadays, don't you.

Originally posted by carver9
Show me the scan that stated he was weakened.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just like wrecker and hulk, huh?
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/sb-04-15.jpg

Batman: "I CANNOT BE CERTAIN (emphasis mine) but the oncoming Kryptonite Asteroid COULD already be affecting Clark".

It doesn't state that he was weakened, or have I missed something?

Also:

Originally posted by abhilegend
Cap's strength amped by stamina of atlas and it isn't in his standard strength description.

Are you saying that Cap does NOT have the stamina of Atlas? As in the second 'A' in 'SHAZAM' stands for something else?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman: "I CANNOT BE CERTAIN (emphasis mine) but the oncoming Kryptonite Asteroid COULD already be affecting Clark".

It doesn't state that he was weakened, or have I missed something?

Also:

Are you saying that Cap does NOT have the stamina of Atlas? As in the second 'A' in 'SHAZAM' stands for something else?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Did you forget the part where he was shown to be slower than "atlantean" power girl and had to make an excuse in order to escape from that question. He was also exhausted from fighting non stop and had his energies sapped by nightshade.
It's exactly what it's stated: Stamina Of Atlas. When cap combined it to armwrestle kal he was sweating profusely. He may combine both to reach kal's strength but his endurance would take a dive for it.

....Now we'll get bogged down in whether Superman was lying or not, and his motivations for it (if he was). I personally take it as face value, and that he really DID want to fly under the Toyman's radar....but if you think he was slower and was covering up for it, that's fine. It's also sunrise, so its debateable how weak he was anyway, as I've seen him recharge pretty quickly.

And having stamina doesn't amp your strength - look at a marathon runner vs sprinter. The marathon runner has oodles of stamina, but in a leg press competition, I'm betting on the sprinter.

Atlas' stamina will help keep him in the competition longer, yes. But if you don't have the strength there in the first place, you're gone.

^He also asked karen why didn't she felt the affects of kryptonite which she didn't because she was switching between kryptonian and atlantean bodies. Now don't mix real world in comics.

Originally posted by abhilegend
^He also asked karen why didn't she felt the affects of kryptonite which she didn't because she was switching between kryptonian and atlantean bodies. Now don't mix real world in comics.

I guess in that case, you'll have to prove that comics are different to the real world in this instance, and prove that the stamina of Atlas amps his strength...which you won't be able to, because the counterfactual is finding an example of any member of the MArvel family possessing the Strength of Hercules, but not the Stamina of Atlas, and then engaging in some strength feat.

I'm just asking why you would assume that Atlas' stamina would amp his strength, that's all - is there a comic I am unaware of (more than likely, actually) where its shown to have indeed amped the strength? And don't say the armwrestling competition lol.....

Originally posted by abhilegend
What has been the use of Wisdom of Solomon like diana's wisdom of athena, nothing notable.

I agree with this...seriously, its such an under-used power...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I guess in that case, you'll have to prove that comics are different to the real world in this instance, and prove that the stamina of Atlas amps his strength...which you won't be able to, because the counterfactual is finding an example of any member of the MArvel family possessing the Strength of Hercules, but not the Stamina of Atlas, and then engaging in some strength feat.

I'm just asking why you would assume that Atlas' stamina would amp his strength, that's all - is there a comic I am unaware of (more than likely, actually) where its shown to have indeed amped the strength? And don't say the armwrestling competition lol.....

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is a weird request. Why would I need to prove something that's explicitly stated in the comic. Superman has used astral projection (not t-vo), sealed holes in time-space by rubbing his hands and sealed a rip in reality by HV. He has never done these things again, does that mean these are discarded as his feats? Marvel explicitly said that he would combine the strength of hercules and stamina of atlas and beat superman in armwrestling but failed. What's to nitpick here and from where does real world science come in this?

He explicitly said that he would combine the strength and the stamina....I am not arguing with this, and never have. I'm saying that the strength of Hercules ALONE is on par with Superman's strength, and that no amping from the stamina occurs.

There was no 'real world science', simply me using real world examples to show that just because you have extra stamina, that does not make you stronger......

As for the other feats you mentioned, why would they be discarded?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He explicitly said that he would combine the strength and the stamina....I am not arguing with this, and never have. I'm saying that the strength of Hercules ALONE is on par with Superman's strength, and that no amping from the stamina occurs.

There was no 'real world science', simply me using real world examples to show that just because you have extra stamina, that does not make you stronger......

As for the other feats you mentioned, why would they be discarded?

Originally posted by abhilegend
[B]No offense, but you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

Again why would I need to prove something that's explicitly stated. You tell me why would marvel combine his stamina to his strength and be almost arrogantly confident that he would beat superman if it doesn't increase his strength.

If Cap and Supes both start out at strength level 100 (just for example), and Cap knows (or is confident that) as time goes on, his own strength level will not decrease, but rather, would continue to plateau at level 100 as Superman tires (and decreases)....why wouldn't he be almost arrogantly confident?

His strength of hercules didn't stop him yelling in pain in a handshake in Action comics 768. I don't have to prove anything, it's already in the comic.

And yes, I know it was a sucker punch, but that does not mean much here. Just because I brace for a punch from Manny Pacquiao, doesn't mean that it'll hurt me any less.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No I'm not, I'm trying to argue that the strength of Hercules is on par with Superman's. As I stated.

Because it would enable him to last longer against Superman. I.e. have the stamina to beat him. Not using 'real world science' here, but:

If Cap and Supes both start out at strength level 100 (just for example), and Cap knows (or is confident that) as time goes on, his own strength level will not decrease, but rather, would continue to plateau at level 100 as Superman tires (and decreases)....why wouldn't he be almost arrogantly confident?

True, it didn't. But it DID help him KO Superman in 2 punches in JLA. Which is a more directly applicable example here, as the OP is about a punchfest, rather than a test of grip strength.

And yes, I know it was a sucker punch, but that does not mean much here. Just because I brace for a punch from Manny Pacquiao, doesn't mean that it'll hurt me any less.

Originally posted by abhilegend
[B]Your theory would be correct if any of this had been said or even alluded in the comic. But it was said that it would help him in beating superman in armwrestling.

J'onn has koed marvel in one punch while beaten half to death in a sucker punch. Here adam isn't allowed to sneak and surround his hands in lightning.

(I removed the scan from the quote because I didn't want to clog the page up). That is a dubious example, I am sure there are better - Marvel seems to be dazed and confused even before the punch, so I am not surprised. Yes, I'm sure you'll say that I'm picking and choosing, but you have to admit that wasn't the best example.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If you read my post, I said that it WOULD help him in beating him at armwrestling. I'm not arguing against the comic, please reread my post. What I am saying is, it would help him last longer (stamina), thus enabling him to be at 100% strength for longer. Doesn't mean that he gets stronger.

(I removed the scan from the quote because I didn't want to clog the page up). That is a dubious example, I am sure there are better - Marvel seems to be dazed and confused even before the punch, so I am not surprised. Yes, I'm sure you'll say that I'm picking and choosing, but you have to admit that wasn't the best example.

Originally posted by abhilegend
[B]Now you are just speculating. You have no proof of your theory as he already accesses his stamina without having to announce it or do we disregard his stamina everytime he doesn't announce it.

I am NOT saying he did not access his stamina. I am NOT saying it confers no advantage.

I am saying he used it, and it aids him in armwrestling. But not in the way you think. It enables him to outlast him, not amp his strength.

In Superman Man of tomorrow 4 which happened before POS 46 they were both stalemating in armwrestling for 3 hours off-panel so marvel had to know that he can't outlast superman so easily.

At the end of the day, after armwrestling for 3 hours previously, Marvel still confidently announces that he'll be able to beat him.

Is this because he previously DIDN'T amp his strength during the 3 hour session? Or more likely, the writers forgot about it? If its the latter, then your point about Marvel knowing that his Atlas stamina not enabling him to outlast Superman is null. Of course, there is a third option - that Captain Marvel believes that this time, this second time, he will be able to outlast him, he just needs to go past 3 or so hours.

All of this is moot, as he lost the armwrestle, but my point still stands- he doesn't use Atlas' stamina to amp his strength. Its separate, hence STRENGTH of Hercules, STAMINA of Atlas.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Keep yourselves telling that. I've pwned cdtm many times on this topic and has no desire to debate (=bash) with someone like quan who is the biggest troll on kmc. Untill someone better than you two comes along, bye.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I am NOT saying he did not access his stamina. I am NOT saying it confers no advantage.

I am saying he used it, and it aids him in armwrestling. But not in the way you think. It enables him to outlast him, not amp his strength.

By this argument, Marvel also had to know that the 'strength amp' conferred on to him by the stamina of Atlas (if it exists) won't enable him to beat him so easily. Yet he was still confident. Why?

At the end of the day, after armwrestling for 3 hours previously, Marvel still confidently announces that he'll be able to beat him.

Is this because he previously DIDN'T amp his strength during the 3 hour session? Or more likely, the writers forgot about it? If its the latter, then your point about Marvel knowing that his Atlas stamina not enabling him to outlast Superman is null. Of course, there is a third option - that Captain Marvel believes that this time, this second time, he will be able to outlast him, he just needs to go past 3 or so hours.

All of this is moot, as he lost the armwrestle, but my point still stands- he doesn't use Atlas' stamina to amp his strength. Its separate, hence STRENGTH of Hercules, STAMINA of Atlas.