Superman vs Black Adam(punchfest)

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
The Shazam-Superman fight in Kahndaq was the definition of a brief, inconclusive skirmish. It showed Billy was strong enough to be noticed by Superman. But the fight never became serious. Billy may have had more in his tank, and Superman definitely did--even making comments to the effect that he was far from dropping the gloves.

Ultraman may be more powerful than Superman. But there is nothing about the Captain Marvel/Superman fight that necessarily contradicts the idea Superman and Ultraman have the same potential strength, even if Captain Marvel is as tough as Black Adam.

👆

Agreed. As of now, it's pretty much impossible to compare Superman and Shazam's strength.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not to long ago I remember it being argued that Superman was definitively superior to Billy based on their scuffle(or something along those lines)-- several people claimed this, iirc. But the fact is: their strength levels were portrayed identically. Superman's blows knocked Billy down, and caused no lasting damage-- Billy's blows knocked Superman down, and caused no lasting damage. Conversely, Adam beat the phuck out of Billy(and the entire empowered Marvel family) to the point where Billy outright admitted inferiority... Then Ultraman waltzes up and owns BA like he's a feeb.

My opinion:
Ultraman>Black Adam~/>Shazam~Superman~Orion>Dianna, etc.

Of course this may very well change over time-- but as of now, that seems to be an accurate hierarchy, imo.

I honestly don't agree with your conclusions. I'm going to try not to appear presumptuous, but it may happen, so apologies in advance.

I don't think we can take much from Superman vs Marvel except that they're in relatively the same bracket of power. I think it's unfair to say that because Adam beat Marvel that he's above Superman too, as the fight between Superman and Billy was WAY too short, and as well as that, their fight was after Billy fought Adam, wasn't it?

I honestly think that Superman is at or around the same level as Adam. Maybe even higher, depending on what Johns does with the guy. I'm not going to say he's as strong as Ultraman, as Johns likes to make his alternate Supermen > Regular Superman (for whatever reason).

So yes, while I can see why you say that, I honestly don't agree, and I think it's way too early to tell definitively.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
The Shazam-Superman fight in Kahndaq was the definition of a brief, inconclusive skirmish. It showed Billy was strong enough to be noticed by Superman. But the fight never became serious. Billy may have had more in his tank, and Superman definitely did--even making comments to the effect that he was far from dropping the gloves.

And this is all secondary to the fact that Dianna interfered during their fight and lassoed Billy, enabling Supes to freely hit him with a pissed off strike. Despite this, Billy was still completely unfazed(aside from being knocked to the ground, of course), and didn't have a scratch on him. He stopped fighting because he wanted to stop fighting-- not because Superman 'one-upped' him or w/e.

They were depicted evenly, is what I'm saying.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't agree with your conclusions. I'm going to try not to appear presumptuous, but it may happen, so apologies in advance.

I don't think we can take much from Superman vs Marvel except that they're in relatively the same bracket of power. I think it's unfair to say that because Adam beat Marvel that he's above Superman too, as the fight between Superman and Billy was WAY too short, and as well as that, their fight was after Billy fought Adam, wasn't it?

I honestly think that Superman is at or around the same level as Adam. Maybe even higher, depending on what Johns does with the guy. I'm not going to say he's as strong as Ultraman, as Johns likes to make his alternate Supermen > Regular Superman (for whatever reason).

So yes, while I can see why you say that, I honestly don't agree, and I think it's way too early to tell definitively.

I'm fine with assuming Adam/Billy/Supes are all relatively equal. That doesn't bother me at all. It's when people start crying that the Marvel family are now "fodder", because they've been "shit on" by the DCnU, and as such are now definitively "sub-Superman-level", that I have a problem.

They're all roughly on par with on another. Their depictions thus far have been glaringly indicative of such. IF one of them is more powerful than the other, the difference is marginal.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think my use of "~/>" may have been misleading.

I'm fine with assuming Adam/Billy/Supes are all relatively equal. That doesn't bother me at all. It's when people start crying that the Marvel family are now "fodder", because they've been "shit on" by the DCnU, and as such are now definitively "sub-Superman-level", that I have a problem.

They're all roughly on par with on another. Their depictions thus far have been glaringly indicative of such. IF one of them is more powerful than the other, the difference is marginal.

The JL will break out of the FS matrix and Superman is gonna put the hurt on UM. At the very least, I bet you ANYTHING he's not gonna break a fingernail (much less his jaw) in that fight.

UM=SM >>>CM/BA.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think my use of "~/>" may have been misleading.

I'm fine with assuming Adam/Billy/Supes are all relatively equal. That doesn't bother me at all. It's when people start crying that the Marvel family are now "fodder", because they've been "shit on" by the DCnU, and as such are now definitively "sub-Superman-level", that I have a problem.

They're all roughly on par with on another. Their depictions thus far have been glaringly indicative of such. IF one of them is more powerful than the other, the difference is marginal.

Okay, I'd be fine with that for the most part.

I honestly don't think the Marvel family has been shit all over. Adam was being used to show how powerful Ultraman was, not to show how weak Adam was.

Johns loves those Marvels almost as much as he loves Hal or Barry.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Johns loves those Marvels almost as much as he loves Hal or Barry.

If that's what you call love, I'd hate to see what would happen if he hated the characters.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah, he "loves" them as much as Hickman "loves" the Starbrand/N.U.

If that's what you call love, I'd hate to see what would happen if he hated the characters.

So you think he made Adam fodder, I take it?

Originally posted by -Pr-
So you think he made Adam fodder, I take it?

Originally posted by zopzop
No. He just restated what's been obvious for the past few years : a serious SM >>>>CM/BA.

Then why doubt Johns' affection for the Marvels?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Then why doubt Johns' affection for the Marvels?

Originally posted by zopzop
Watch and see.

The JL will break out of the FS matrix and Superman is gonna put the hurt on UM. At the very least, I bet you ANYTHING he's not gonna break a fingernail (much less his jaw) in that fight.

UM=SM >>>CM/BA.

Luthor will be the real 'hero' in this all.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Okay, I'd be fine with that for the most part.

I honestly don't think the Marvel family has been shit all over. Adam was being used to show how powerful Ultraman was, not to show how weak Adam was.

Johns loves those Marvels almost as much as he loves Hal or Barry.

Originally posted by zopzop
Because he could have had him lose in a less humiliating fashion. The fight could have lasted more than like 4 panels or whatever it was.

Johns did what he does in every event he does: Kick the absolute shit out of everyone the main villain goes up against. He's been doing it for years, and I'm honestly not surprised about Adam at all.

Nor do I think it hurt his rep.

Originally posted by Galan007
The 'lesser evil'(Luthor and co.) will overcome the 'true evil'(the CSA and co.) That's how Johns is gearing this entire event. It won't be as simple as Superman being released and rushing in at the last minute to save the day-- and if he does, it will be because Luthor has already done something major.

Luthor will be the real 'hero' in this all.

Exactly. I'm e-hugging you right now. 👆

vin

Originally posted by zopzop
Watch and see.

The JL will break out of the FS matrix and Superman is gonna put the hurt on UM. At the very least, I bet you ANYTHING he's not gonna break a fingernail (much less his jaw) in that fight.

UM=SM >>>CM/BA.

It has already once happened with SBP. A less powerful version of SBP laughed off attacks from a bloodlusted black adam. SBP and even Time-Trapper SBP couldn't do that to superman who went toe to toe with them for a time. Johns has outright said that he views superman as the most powerful hero on earth.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No, during the Doomsdays arc just before the reboot.

Originally posted by ODG
Are we just completely ignoring that Captain Marvel had no trouble giving as good as he took from Superman himself?

Talk about missing the forest for the trees here.

As was already sad, that was a brief skirmish that didn't prove much. Especially since both Cap and Superman hold back a lot of their power... At best, they felt each other out for a future slugfest..

If Superman ends up fighting evenly with Ultraman at some point, the Cap/Supes fight won't do too much to mitigate that showing, vs the damage done from Ultraman crushing Adam.. (And pr, you really don't think that fight hurts Adam's rep? Is it because you're assuming Ultraman is trans tier, on a level above Superman himself, or does your opinion include if he was Superman level?

And how close in power level have you normally considered the Shazam family to Superman?)

^ There's no need to restate the blatantly obvious:

Originally posted by Galan007
Superman and Billy's scuffle, while brief, actually did show us quite a bit. It showed us that Billy is strong enough to go blow for blow with Superman without showing any signs of slowing down. It showed us that he is able to literally shrug off multiple strikes from Supes-- and yes Superman's final blow was 'serious', as evident by his red glowing eyes(which are indicative of him being pissed.) It showed us that the only reason Supes was able to gain ground initially is because of Billy's child-like demeanor(he's still a kid, remember.)

And this is all secondary to the fact that Dianna interfered during their fight and lassoed Billy, enabling Supes to freely hit him with a pissed off strike. Despite this, Billy was still completely unfazed(aside from being knocked to the ground, of course), and didn't have a scratch on him. He stopped fighting because he wanted to stop fighting-- not because Superman 'one-upped' him or w/e.

They were depicted evenly, is what I'm saying.

So, was Adam powered down when Ultraman crushed his face? It seemed like he was judging by the absolute ease and the Shazam bolt... but then again, meh.

Though I don't get how this reflects on Superman... I take it I must have missed the fight where Superman beats up Ultraman?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So, was Adam powered down when Ultraman crushed his face? It seemed like he was judging by the absolute ease and the Shazam bolt... but then again, meh.

Though I don't get how this reflects on Superman... I take it I must have missed the fight where Superman beats up Ultraman?

I can't speak for other people, but what I'm saying is that UM = SM power level wise, the only difference is their : morality, power source, and weaknesses (which are reversed).

UM is basically an evil SM (aka non holding back SM) and look what he did to BA. BA and CM can hang with SM when he's playing around, if he's ever bloodlusted or dead serious, well we just saw what went down.

Originally posted by zopzop
I can't speak for other people, but what I'm saying is that UM = SM power level wise