Darth maul vs Dark jedi bastilla

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh, really? Watch TPM, the end, Qui-Gons funeral. Yoda specifically mentions that there are always two Sith, one master, one apprentice. That means the Jedi must obviously have encountered Sith in the past thousand years (since that "Rule of Two" was designed by Darth Bane). Hell...the mere fact that they can identify Maul as a "Sith" is testament to the fact that they actually do have some extensive knowledge of the Sith Order.

For the non English speaking mad men of the forum:

"you cant give me one cannon source that says the two Jedi had dealed with a sith before Darth maul"

"the two Jedi" as in Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

How does that matter?

It would matter because if they hadn't, they would have been at a disadvantage that Bastilla logically wouldn't, meaning the feat loses value in terms of gauging Maul's relative level of ability.

We see Qui-Gon being hard pressed against Maul during their fight on Tatooine and in that situation Maul was just using a single blade. So obviously the guy can keep up and outclass one of the Orders bests duellist while not even using the special properties of his weapon.

Ignoring the fact that Maul was prepared whereas Qui-Gon wasn't, I fail to see where Qui-Gon was outclassed in that situation exactly.

Well...consider the situation. Maul was trained for his entire life to kill Jedi. He got one down. The second was about to fall. Who would have expected a Padawan to pull off an action like Obi-Wan did in this situation?

No excuse. With precognition and extremely heightened reflexes, expecting an action based on how you perceive your enemy shouldn't even be a factor for a decent Force user. If his reaction time was anything worth bragging about, he would have at least moved his body.

Lmao. You are talking about the "dream" that happens after Revan has received a direct hit from a turbolaser shot. Impressive. Actually it would have been more useful to mention that Bastilla was apparently able to keep Malak busy over a certain amount of time, while Revan and Carth escape from the Leviathan.

Yet still she got owned by Malak. Who at this time, had studied the Sith ways for some years at max.

Quit card stacking. He would have also been studying Jedi teachings for his entire life.

I doubt he compares to a killing machine like Darth Maul who has been trained in the ways of the Dark Side for his entire life (more than two decades)

You're failing to factor in natural talent, Nai. Sidious hardly exactly had the widest selection of Force users to pick an apprentice from (given that his selection was limited to who the Jedi either missed out on or purposefully ignored), meaning there would be no logical basis in arguing that Maul had even above average strength in the force, and nothing suggests that he was talented in any way. Malak on the other hand, along with Revan, was noted to have stood out among the entire Order for possessing extraordinary talent and force strength, and by virtue of displays of power, as far as force prowess goes, he easily has Maul beat (freezing the extremely powerful Bastilla along with Carth (not arguing that the latter alone would be anything special, but it's the fact that he did it at the same time as the former) in place for example, with little effort).

by one of the most powerful (if not the most powerful) Sith Lord ever.

Since when does that honestly factor in on how great a teacher Sidious would be?

They certainly aren't "gods" with their lightsabers.

Still. Qui-Gon was the former apprentice of one of the "saber gods" of the SW mythos (Dooku)

Dooku? A saber God? Right, because he's done... what, exactly? Practised in one form for several decades, and acted as a lightsaber instructor? Don't be ridiculous, he hardly even stands out from the crowd. The only beings that could truly be classified as such, given an extraordinary talent or extreme mastery (I'm talking technique, here, though the same applies with Dooku in all out ability as well), would be Kas'im, Ulic Quel-Droma, Mace Windu, and Kyle Katarn.

Also, given that Jedi generally train with the lightsaber instructors of the Order rather than with their Masters, as well as the fact that the level of teaching doesn't reflect on the level of talent, this point was always going to mean little.

and trained Obi-Wan.

Refer to the above.

His attunement with the living force is also certainly nothing to cough at.

Which means what?

And Obi-Wan himself is certainly quite a gifted Padawan - at the very least in terms of bladework.

I'd like some proof.

How, huh?

Given how she effortlessly overpowers the force defences of two Jedi at once, not to mention the countless times she's referred to as extremely gifted, as well as the potency of her BM, she's clearly in a whole different league to Darth Maul in force ability, based on what we know.

Bastilla still was a freaking Padawan

I'd like some proof.

who's sole strength was Battle Meditation

Because you say so? This is hardly the case, given her offensive displays with the force, which were clearly exceptional.

- which can't be used in this fight. How would she kill Maul with the force.

Lightning, perhaps? Maul's reaction time has been shown to be pretty lacking on two occasions: 1. Failing to react to Obi-Wan's ninja attack, and 2. Failing to block the lightning of a relatively average Nightsister with his lightsaber. I doubt he'd be able to defend against the extremely powerful Bastilla's lightning, given his already shown displays. Then, of course, there's Bastilla's extremely potent force stun, which was able to overpower the force defences of two Jedi at once, with little effort on Bastilla's part.

Just to remind you, the Maul we're deaing with is the same Darth Maul that has nothing going for him as far as his force ability is concerned.

Hell...how would she even touch Maul with it? Maul is a fully trained Sith Apprentice - the Malak of his time, so to say.

Laughable.

One of the "deadliest Sith apprentices" trained in the entire history of the Order.

1. Given that, as a title, "apprentice" was only the official name for the Ro2 Sith, we have no reason to believe that this refers to any Sith outside of that Order.

2. We also have no reason to believe that it would be referring to any Sith except the ones that never became Masters, given that the Apprentices that became Masters wouldn't be labelled as such. Essentially, not only narrowing down the number of Sith included in the category, but excluding the more powerful ones.

3. Bare in mind, the Order was far less militant than other's, meaning that the training would generally be less focused on battle prowess.

4. Bare in mind, also, that the Order was mostly in hiding, further undermining its level of power, as the Sith would mostly have not been getting any real battle experience.

So essentially, all that the quote proves is that Maul was among the most powerful of the lesser group of Sith (most likely numbering in the 20s, tops) within a particularly pathetic Order. Impressive. 🙄

What has Bastilla (canonically) ever done impressive with her lightsaber or the force (except for her battle meditation)? Nothing. Correct, Sir.

Play the game, and know what you're talking about.

WTF?

WFT?

Peacetime? Interresting interpretation of the pre-PT-times. I wouldn't call the Mandalorian Civil War, the Stark Hyperspace War and the Ynchorri Uprising "peaceful" times.

That's great, and I love how elaborate you were there... oh wait!

swtimeline.ru/?comics=12&page=016

Yoda: After so many years of relative peace, troubles me does a threat like this.

The Yinchorri Uprising wasn't exactly the norm of the time, and clearly doesn't change the fact that the era was relatively peaceful.

Nor do I see where it does actually matter, given the display of actual combat skill that both Jedi do show during the TPM movie.

Like what?

If you own the TPM DVD you might want to check the commentary. There is a reason why Lucas does call the Jedi in general "invincible" in combat...

Lucas' standards are hardly parallel to those of the EU writer's, given how the epitome of force usage in the movies is pretty much chucking Senate Pods around. I'd question how exactly he'd define the term "invincible," and would love to see how exactly it changes the fact that the Jedi of the time were generally not so battle hardened.

Wow. Thing that goes through my mind while reading this sentence: "Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their own level and then beat you with experience." 🙄

Wow, never heard that one before. How original.

F.U.

I am quitting these forums just because apperantly, debating to them is some form of stubborn fight in which they refuse to see each others points.

As for you, Borborad, I said "the two jedi" Kenobi and Jinn. THEY had not encountered sith before.

Dooku was far younger and less experienced when he trained Jinn, maybe you should take that into account.

And sure... who would have expected that from a padawan? ME. Thats who. and Im not even skilled in the force. Seriously, you get into a street fight with someone maybe half as skilled as you, and he goes down but is still pretty pissed off cause you killed his freind, hes gonna come right back up and hit you. EVERYONE would expect that from a padawan.

And no, Tyrannus was not a "Saber God" he was supremely skilled however, in the fact that he could keep yoda from killing him, and if I graduate you from a highschool class, if you should say I was trained in such and such by the great soandso, so I am just as good, you would be a fool.

Being padawan to a great lord does not make you a great lord.

Jedi In General being "invincible" also implies that anyone able to kill a jedi in general would be "invincible" by this logic, the sith would be generally "invincible" in combat, as well.

sorry, wrong again. there is no "malak of mauls time" If there was it would be Dooku.

fine. Bastilla kept a sith lord (notice the careful use of the word LORD and not apprentice) busy long enough for revan and carth to escape.

This would give you the necessary Lightsaber skills to take maul down.

I understand that wookiepedia is not cannon, but this stuff is cannon it is backed by my memory of the game (faint as it is)

from wookiepedia:
"Im… impossible. I… I cannot be beaten. I am the Dark Lord of the Sith."
¯Darth Malak[src]

During her short time as a Sith apprentice, she was capable of using Force powers such as Force Insanity, Force Choke, Force Wave, Force Shock, Force Plague, Force Breach, Drain Life, (Force Drain) and Force Stasis Field. From her point of view, she was more powerful than all but a few Jedi Masters.[2]

"Maul had been an animal. A skilled animal, but a beast nonetheless."
¯Darth Tyranus's thoughts on Darth Maul[src]
----not too bright. all ud have to do is do something unexpected like vader did to kill him after kenobi.

Maul was resurrected. Leland Chee later declared the incident canon

In wikipedia, there is no mention of any force abilites on maces part. therefor since bastilla posesses many, i think in force at least, she would own him.

maul is a practicioner of juyo wich sacrifices greatly any form of defence for strong hard and fast strokes wich involve striking out with the darkside.

With these wide strong swings, bastilla would find an oppening and hit it with her skill in any of the "jedi forms" wich sacrifice attack for defence.

btw. dont reply to this for my sake, im not coming back.

Mother****er just copied all of my points. Don't be fooled by the timing, a man can type a lot in a minute.

lol m8 i replied to it after I came back from work. on an old webpage my brother had been looking at. it hadnt been refreshed to see yours.

lol.. a man can type alot in a minute?

including do research on wookipedia to prove his points, read the entire articles on bastilla, maul, and malak, to double verify is facts, and then copy the key quotes from wookipedia that had the most relevence on his cause?

riiiiggghhht....

Wouldn't be surprised if this fafalla reject is just a Noobaris sock. He's just as incompetent.

Boringlad got owned.

Originally posted by E-Hotshot
Boringlad got owned.

Poor Noobaris, still in denial..

dude...
ok i said i was gone, but... i have decided that in order to not be laughed at forever, I would have to stick it out a bit.

Darth Sexy, you arent exactly known as the greatest debator on this forum either.

I dont think hes nebaris... anyway.

Darth Sexy I have seen countless threads where you were ridiculed as a noob. notice you are the only one still fighting for maul here? E-Hotshot and I have made ambiguitiless points that have prettty much made this thread closed. instead of making dumb posts about where noobaris is (are you a fan or something?) why dont you post a arguement or a quote from a canon source that says we are wrong?

your just being an annoying, insulting noob.

No I am not saying I am not a noob. I am a noob, but I Know my stuff and am learning more stuff 😄

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
dude...
ok i said i was gone, but... i have decided that in order to not be laughed at forever, I would have to stick it out a bit.

Darth Sexy, you arent exactly known as the greatest debator on this forum either.

I dont think hes nebaris... anyway.

Darth Sexy I have seen countless threads where you were ridiculed as a noob. notice you are the only one still fighting for maul here? E-Hotshot and I have made ambiguitiless points that have prettty much made this thread closed. instead of making dumb posts about where noobaris is (are you a fan or something?) why dont you post a arguement or a quote from a canon source that says we are wrong?

your just being an annoying, insulting noob.

No I am not saying I am not a noob. I am a noob, but I Know my stuff and am learning more stuff 😄

Sure thing Noobaris. Keep getting pwned.

lol you tard. im not "noobaris" whoever that is. I have just heard the legend.

you have yet to show how I have been "pwned" in any way.

You are going way off topic....

go see a doctor. everyone you disagree with is "noobaris" including me and "e-hotshot"

Originally posted by E-Hotshot
For the non English speaking mad men of the forum:

"you cant give me one cannon source that says [b]the two Jedi had dealed with a sith before Darth maul"

"the two Jedi" as in Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

And it's still a stupid stance to take. It was Qui-Gon who did confront Maul on Tatooine (so yes...he DID confront him before the fight at the end of TPM) and instantly identified him as Sith (seen when he's back at Coruscant and says that to the council members).

It would matter because if they hadn't, they would have been at a disadvantage that Bastilla logically wouldn't, meaning the feat loses value in terms of gauging Maul's relative level of ability.

Which is stupid beyond believe. A Sith is nothing but a Jedi with the exception of other force powers. He wields a lightsaber, he uses the force. So unless you want to claim that two force users, who lived around other force users for the entirety of their lives aren't capable of gauging the relative level of ability that another force user has - I have to tell you that you're the damn epitome of stupidity.

Ignoring the fact that Maul was prepared whereas Qui-Gon wasn't, I fail to see where Qui-Gon was outclassed in that situation exactly.

They duel, Qui-Gon escapes and he has to lay down first, visibly breathing hard. While Maul just stands there in the desert showing no exertion from the fight. Obviously he was plain simply in better shape than the Jedi Master. What a surprise.

No excuse. With precognition and extremely heightened reflexes, expecting an action based on how you perceive your enemy shouldn't even be a factor for a decent Force user. If his reaction time was anything worth bragging about, he would have at least moved his body.

Coming from the guy who thinks that Bane must be uber despite the fact that the guy had a nice load of his own force lightning thrown back into his face by an enemy he deemed beaten. Oh wait. That's the exactly same situation Maul was in. So you have proven that Bane sucks now? Interesting.

Quit card stacking. He would have also been studying Jedi teachings for his entire life.

Yes? Then give me the proof for Malak starting his Jedi training as a kid (which was not the standard back in the KotoR days). You can't? Then you better shut up.

You're failing to factor in natural talent, Nai. Sidious hardly exactly had the widest selection of Force users to pick an apprentice from (given that his selection was limited to who the Jedi either missed out on or purposefully ignored), meaning there would be no logical basis in arguing that Maul had even above average strength in the force, and nothing suggests that he was talented in any way.

With exception of the quote telling us that he was "one of the deadliest Sith Apprentices ever trained". End of story. I don't have to factor anything in and even if I would - the natural talent for Maul would be an unknown. Comparing an unknown to something else and then try to draw conclusions from the comparison is utter nonsense. Especially nice try to talk down Maul. The guy survived Sidious training, which was clearly designed to create a being that might be able to become his successor at some point in time. Not to mention the fact that Maul once almost managed to kill Sidious.

Malak on the other hand, along with Revan, was noted to have stood out among the entire Order for possessing extraordinary talent and force strength, and by virtue of displays of power, as far as force prowess goes, he easily has Maul beat (freezing the extremely powerful Bastilla along with Carth (not arguing that the latter alone would be anything special, but it's the fact that he did it at the same time as the former) in place for example, with little effort).

And since when does it matter what Malak and Revan had done. This is Maul vs Bastilla. Not Maul vs Malak or Maul vs Revan. So the matter of the debate would be what Bastilla has done to put her above Maul. Right answer: Nothing.

Dooku? A saber God? Right, because he's done... what, exactly? Practised in one form for several decades, and acted as a lightsaber instructor? Don't be ridiculous, he hardly even stands out from the crowd.

Right. He was one of the top 3 duellist of an Order that numbered 10,000 Jedi Knights. Which his other rivals being Yoda, and Mace Windu. Wow. Glad to know he hardly stands out from the crowd. He's just on par with a guy who designed the "deadliest form of lightsaber combat" when he was a freaking teenager. An action that required multiple-form mastery. Holy shit. Dooku must indeed suck with a lightsaber.

Also, given that Jedi generally train with the lightsaber instructors of the Order rather than with their Masters, as well as the fact that the level of teaching doesn't reflect on the level of talent, this point was always going to mean little.

Urm. No. They go to extensive sparring with their respective masters once they reached Padawan status. And the better the guy instructing you (or the guy you're sparring with) the more you obviously can learn from him - regardless of talent. But maybe the guy that had lightsaber skills "rivaling that of Mace Windu" (Shadow Hunter - Qui-Gon) and the dude that Mace called the "only true master of the lightsaber" (RotS novel) didn't possess any talent when it came to lightsaber combat. Seems to be perfectly logical.

Given how she effortlessly overpowers the force defences of two Jedi at once, not to mention the countless times she's referred to as extremely gifted, as well as the potency of her BM, she's clearly in a whole different league to Darth Maul in force ability, based on what we know.

Oh. She overpowers the force defences of two random Jedi at once. I'm damn impressed. Maul forced a guy who's combat skills are "second to none" in the Jedi Order to try a suicide action to defeat him. Force skills? Wait. Maul can just accelerate his movement speed to an extend allowing him to run after a freaking air speeder (Shadow Hunter) and actually catch it. In the time it a rocket needs to fly through a rather small room, he was capable of cutting a hole in the ground, drop through it and cut another hole into the wall of the room down below and move through it (Shadow Hunter). Not to mention that the guy walked straight through force lightning, simply "resisting" it. Like to see what Bastilla would do against him, force wise.

I'd like some proof.

How about playing KotoR and read KotoR related material. Bastilla was a damn Padawan at the beginning of the game and never received any promotion.

Because you say so? This is hardly the case, given her offensive displays with the force, which were clearly exceptional.

Yes? Because she did what? Overpowering two people with unknown strength? That translates into "she can do the same to Maul" how exactly? Right. It doesn't.

Lightning, perhaps?

Which Maul has already resisted in the past?

Maul's reaction time has been shown to be pretty lacking on two occasions: 1. Failing to react to Obi-Wan's ninja attack, and 2. Failing to block the lightning of a relatively average Nightsister with his lightsaber. I doubt he'd be able to defend against the extremely powerful Bastilla's lightning, given his already shown displays. Then, of course, there's Bastilla's extremely potent force stun, which was able to overpower the force defences of two Jedi at once, with little effort on Bastilla's part.

Lmao. He didn't need to block the lightning, since he simply resisted it. The Ninja attack? Yeah. Great failing of reaction due to surprise attack. Given his regular reaction time and speed (see above) I doubt that would happen in a regular fight.

Just to remind you, the Maul we're deaing with is the same Darth Maul that has nothing going for him as far as his force ability is concerned.

In your little universe of ignorance that nobody cares about.

Laughable.

A nice word to descripe your persona.

1. Given that, as a title, "apprentice" was only the official name for the Ro2 Sith, we have no reason to believe that this refers to any Sith outside of that Order.

Given that this is the title that Ragnos gives to Ulic Quel-Droma and the title that is also used for Malak we have. And even if we reduce it to Bane's order the list of apprentices would still include people like Zannah, Sidious himself, Plagueis or - in short - 1000 years filled with Sith apprentices.

2. We also have no reason to believe that it would be referring to any Sith except the ones that never became Masters, given that the Apprentices that became Masters wouldn't be labelled as such. Essentially, not only narrowing down the number of Sith included in the category, but excluding the more powerful ones.

Don't try to argue me with your personal interpretation. It doesn't matter if the apprentices became masters later. It refers to the respective person before they reached Master status. And that people in that category can be pretty powerful can be seen with Zannah.

3. Bare in mind, the Order was far less militant than other's, meaning that the training would generally be less focused on battle prowess.

LMAO. Check the source dealing with Maul's training.

4. Bare in mind, also, that the Order was mostly in hiding, further undermining its level of power, as the Sith would mostly have not been getting any real battle experience.

Once again: Check Mauls story. The fact that they didn't operate in a "public" fashion doesn't mean that they didn't see any action. Maul did demolish the entire Black Sun for example - and also killed Jedi before TPM. That nobody realized that the Sith were back doesn't mean much here.

So essentially, all that the quote proves is that Maul was among the most powerful of the lesser group of Sith (most likely numbering in the 20s, tops) within a particularly pathetic Order. Impressive. 🙄

Did I mention already that you personal interpreations are absolutely nonsensical and lack any form of logic. I think so. But thanks for trying it once more.

Play the game, and know what you're talking about.

You mean like knowing that Bastilla was a Padawan? Guess somebody should follow his own great advice, huh?

The Yinchorri Uprising wasn't exactly the norm of the time, and clearly doesn't change the fact that the era was relatively peaceful.

You are familiar with the meaning of the word "relatively"? So it was peaceful - in relation to what? The Ancient Sith Wars? The Sith War just before the Ruusan reformation? Of course. But apparently they still had enough action going on even during that time of "relative" peace. Especially if you consider that Mace Windu, at the very beginning of the Clone Wars, already had the reputation of a "legendary swordsman". Galaxy wide and also among persons outside of the Jedi Order. I'm quite sure such a reputation is quite hard to archieve without actually using your lightsaber. And Mace even recalls some nice fights he had with Depa on his side during "Shatterpoint".

So the "relative peace" does most likely mean that there wasn't a galaxy-scale war going on. But aside of that? Simply check the list of conflicts known for that time.

Lucas' standards are hardly parallel to those of the EU writer's, given how the epitome of force usage in the movies is pretty much chucking Senate Pods around. I'd question how exactly he'd define the term "invincible," and would love to see how exactly it changes the fact that the Jedi of the time were generally not so battle hardened.

Urm. Lucas is limited by things he can do within the movies. If you have the Clone War DVD - check the commentary. Lucas said that this is how he imagined the Jedi to be but he wasn't able to realize them like that in the regular movies. So much for that "standards".

And "battle hardened" is a matter of interpretation. With all the minor conflicts going on in a Republic that features thousands upon thousands of Star-Systems and the Jedi serving as both: the only military force of the Republic and a sort of "special police force" for that entire space. Well. Imagine you had just 10,000 Soldiers and police men here on Earth. Now imagine the same number of people being responsible for several thousands of planets. In that situation it's quite hard to imagine that the individual members of the Order haven't seen enough action during their career - even in a time of relative peace.

And if I may remind you. The people in the Kun/KotoR era also haven't seen a major conflict for 1000 years (from the extinction of the Ancient Sith Empire to the rise of Kun). So where is the difference to the PT era Jedi? With the exception that the Kun/KotoR era time Jedi didn't start their training as infants and that force techniques and lightsaber combat would most likely have been refined over 4,000 years ?

It's always worth making popcorn to see Nai Fohl lay down the law.

borborad, I really faill to see the point that probably that 30 minutes of typing was trying to build up to...

and id like some proof that their were 10,000 jedi at the time of the clone wars.

quote:

So essentially, all that the quote proves is that Maul was among the most powerful of the lesser group of Sith (most likely numbering in the 20s, tops) within a particularly pathetic Order. Impressive.

Did I mention already that you personal interpreations are absolutely nonsensical and lack any form of logic. I think so. But thanks for trying it once more.

wth? I dont get it. you didnt even make a point with this one....
Apprentices are the bottom half of the sith. so if there were about 20 sith lords (which I am sure that this is what he was trying to say) there would be, by the rule of two, 20 apprentices. so half of them would be sith and half of them would be apprentices. What he is trying to say is on the low half as far as sith go, maul is skilled. so what he is saying is that maul is one of the best out of the less skilled group of sith. Bastilla stood up and occupied malak who would be among the mediocre of the more skilled group of sith. so wouldnt that make bastilla a pretty high end sith apprentice?

and we arent talking about "padawan bastilla" we are talking about "sith APPRENTICE bastilla." who did in fact get promoted from the demeaning title of padawan to lord Malak's Apprentice. so get this "Shan is a Padawan" crap out of your head.

What he probably meant to say, was; in comparison to the Clone War or the Jedi Civil war, Pre Phantom Menace times were probably relatively peaceful, in which case, he would be right.

In your little universe of ignorance that nobody cares about.

does this really mean anything? is this disproving that "maul has NOTHING going for him force wise?" NO. this is a waste of use on my eyeballs.
quote:
was capable of cutting a hole in the ground, drop through it and cut another hole into the wall of the room down below and move through it (Shadow Hunter). Not to mention that the guy walked straight through force lightning, simply "resisting" it. Like to see what Bastilla would do against him, force wise.

for one, this seems pretty far fetched. dropping through it would be about 80 times slower then a rocket can move, he would have to accelerate his falling speed wich has been proven physically impossible in both the star Wars Universe and our Universe. but im not going to give you a physics lesson.

Right. He was one of the top 3 duellist of an Order that numbered 10,000 Jedi Knights. Which his other rivals being Yoda, and Mace Windu. Wow. Glad to know he hardly stands out from the crowd. He's just on par with a guy who designed the "deadliest form of lightsaber combat" when he was a freaking teenager. An action that required multiple-form mastery. Holy shit. Dooku must indeed suck with a lightsaber.

Id like a link to a source. 1, that their wer 10,000 jedi Knights in action around the galaxy in star wars, 2, that he was on par with a guy who "designed the 'deadliest form of lightsaber combat' when he was a freaking teenager." and 3, that he even closely rivals yoda... *sigh* did you even watch aotc? seriously, that makes no sence at all. 4. Id like to know who "designed the 'deadliest form of lightsaber combat' when he was a freaking teenater." and a cannon source that he did so.

And since when does it matter what Malak and Revan had done. This is Maul vs Bastilla. Not Maul vs Malak or Maul vs Revan. So the matter of the debate would be what Bastilla has done to put her above Maul. Right answer: Nothing.

hmm. well, where as (as I have proved by simple logic before) maul is say one of the best out of the lower half of sith, and malak is one of the mediocre out of the higher half of sith, and bastilla was able to engage malak in combat until carth and revan could escape, this defenitely puts bastilla on par with maul. So the correct answer to your above question is:... let me think.... EVERYTHING.

Which is stupid beyond believe. A Sith is nothing but a Jedi with the exception of other force powers. He wields a lightsaber, he uses the force.

IF you believe this is true, then why does it matter in any way weather or not qui gon identified maul as a sith or not? and you dont have to have fought sith before to identify them. there are holograms. do you not think that a jedi will be trained to know a sith when he sees one? Ok... younglings, a sith carries a red lightsaber, has orange eyes, and will kill you if you talk to him... HELLO??? you dont have to have fought a sith personally to id one.

They duel, Qui-Gon escapes and he has to lay down first, visibly breathing hard. While Maul just stands there in the desert showing no exertion from the fight. Obviously he was plain simply in better shape than the Jedi Master. What a surprise.

1. this defenitely proves my point that qui gon was trained more as a negotiator and less as a combat machine.
yet they still killed maul... What a surprise.

I really fail to see how some of these contradictions even get you anywhere.

and um, as I have stated before, you dont kill an "invincible" beings freind and teacher, and then get him stuck, and then not expect him to keep trying to kill you. Why would he not expect this?

HE is an animal, a skilled beast, but a beast none the less...
--count dooku, concerning maul.

So my point is, Maul Is perhaps one of the higher on the bottom half of the whole sith/apprentice thing, and bastilla was able to keep occupied for a while one of the mediocre on the high half of the sith/apprentice thing, so wouldnt that make her somewhere pretty high on the bottom half of the sith/apprentice thing?

wouldnt that make her at least a match for maul? then she has way more force powers and abilites (as I have listed before) which would probably just about tide her over. or she could even do something totaly unexpected to him.

another thing I want to point out is that maul uses "Juyo" a form that is more implemented during Bastilla's time period, so she would be more used to and ready for his combat style then the two jedi on naboo.

also if you notice that far more jedis use double bladeds in Kotor, such as brandon, and the Sith trainer at korriban, and many of the sith on the star forge and in korriban, including bastilla, so wouldnt she be more ready to face a double bladed then the two jedi on naboo?

just a thought but all this logic points to the fact that bastilla would be far more ready and able for Maul then Kenobi and Jinn, and yet, kenobi and jinn still killed him.

and im no fighter for people who died because they didnt expect something (such as the emperor or windu or maul or bane) so leave me out of that one.

also, bane was stupid in the fact that he made the rule of two, a stupid idea that would limit the sith greatly.

Knightfall must be a Neb sock, no one else could possibly be this stupid. Especially saying things like this:

also, bane was stupid in the fact that he made the rule of two, a stupid idea that would limit the sith greatly.

Is that why the large Sith Orders always got their asses handed to them by the Jedi, but the Ro2 order conquered the galaxy?

He obviously has not read the darth bane books. Even Revan knew how flawed these sith groups are

Those who accept the power of the dark side must also accept the challenge of holding on to it. By its very nature the dark side invites rivalry and strife. This is the greatest strength of the Sith: it culls the weak from our order. Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those working beneath them in concert. Any master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time, the apprentices will unite their strengths and overthrow the master. It is inevitable; axiomatic. That is why each master must have only one student.

This is also the reason there can only be one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be.

And the brotherhood of the Darkness was pretty much doing the opposite and Bane realized this. And btw the sith or the rule of two did something that BOD,Kun's BOS, and Revan's sith empire never did and that was have control of the entire galaxy. Bane was a smart sith to do this and the results showed.

Lord Knightfall, you aren't bad at making points (though some of the points themselves are wrong), but you could have a much more airtight argument if you wrote shorter posts. Fascistcrusader and Elite Hunter jumped on a single phrase you wrote out of that whole post, and I would love to pick you apart about the difference between a Sith and a Jedi, but since that is off subject I'm not going to start that.

Just a tip.

the "sith is just a evil jedi" thing is a qoute from borborad. someone who severely got his butt kicked to the next century.

I thought the rule of two is a stupid Idea because it doesnt even hope to have a match for the Jedi's Hundreds. Unless you put together two INCREDIBLY powerful and intelligent sith like Vader and Sideous. I was mistaken.

thanks for reading the rest of my arguement. and stay on topic. this isnt about bane.