Originally posted by Ivalice
I don't see how nihilus can effect sidious with his technique if sidious uses "Quey'tek" which he would appear not connected to the force to both sion and nihilus.
He wouldn't. Quey'tek would shield Palpatine's vast strength in the Force from Darth Nihilus, leaving only his human vitality to be gazed upon, which -- according to Tobin -- is not enough to warrant Nihilus's attention.
Originally posted by GideonBingo and not like sidious can't cloak himself with the force. Then it would be sidious being invisible in both the force and physically and he is by no means detectable by either sion or nihilus.
He wouldn't. Quey'tek would shield Palpatine's vast strength in the Force from Darth Nihilus, leaving only his human vitality to be gazed upon, which -- according to Tobin -- is not enough to warrant Nihilus's attention.
Originally posted by Ivalice
Bingo and not like sidious can't cloak himself with the force. Then it would be sidious being invisible in both the force and physically and he is by no means detectable by either sion or nihilus.
Absolutely.
Of the two Sith Lords facing Darth Sidious, only Nihilus is a true threat, and once robbed of his ability to detect the Emperor through the Force, he's essentially screwed; Sidious (being aware of both Sion and Nihilus) would likely disable Nihilus first and then pursue his charred predecessor.
Originally posted by Gideon
Of course, no one is arguing that this would be the likely outcome, Faunus. But it is far from a "weak argument"; it's actually rather clever. It has a logical foundation and, unlike most arguments, does not assume facts not already in evidence. The circumstances are thus: Emperor Palpatine is facing two Dark Lords of the Sith; one of whom carries psuedoinvincibility and the other carries a massive, potent draining ability. That said, he has the means to evade the drain (Quey'tek) of which there is no countermeasure available to the other Sith Lords. He is also free to generate and make use of the Force. Furthermore, aside from the "uber-drain", neither Sith Lord has demonstrated any other skills that suggest a remote parity with the Emperor, who is a remarkably prodigious duelist. Neither of them have demonstrated a remote parity with the Emperor in terms of intellect, either, and Palpatine's penchant for manipulation and calculation is peerless. Given how certain parties were fond of citing how Palpatine's Sith training involves subterfuge and deception as opposed to brute force, this is one situation that -- outside of those traits being used to achieve a goal that brute force never did -- these traits could also allow him to emerge victorious. It cannot be ruled out, I'm afraid.
I seem to recall Darth Nihilus using Force Stasis on Visas, the Exile, and Mandalore before he even attempted a Force Drain. And all three where helpless. Now, I'm not ranking the Exile way up there, but considering Nihilus did that effortlessly, you're expecting me to believe that Sidious will somehow do this in the first ten seconds of the fight:
1. Mask himself from Nihilus' presence and somehow avoid a Force Drain which will make him a lifeless husk. Nevermind the fact that Nihilus can obviously use his eyes, since he saber duelled with the Exile whom, for all intents and purposes, he could not see on a cosmic-Force level.
2. Avoid Sion leaping forward and skewering him, which negates any clumsy meshing that the Jedi had attempted since he'd be over and past the set of chairs and in Sidious' lap.
3. Prevent any Force attacks on his person. You know, like he did with Yoda.
4. Not run like hell.
5. Conjure up an appropriate Force attack which will kill the nigh-unkillable Sion and/or Nihilus.
6. Have the presence of mind to do any of the above with the possibility of defending himself against two powerful Sith Lords who intend to kill him.
Occam's Razor really doesn't help this case at all. I'm sorry, but Sidious loses his ass. Maybe he gets in a good one on one of his attackers, but in the end it's like the scene in Deliverance with Sion making Sids squeal like a pig.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I seem to recall Darth Nihilus using Force Stasis on Visas, the Exile, and Mandalore before he even attempted a Force Drain. And all three where helpless. Now, I'm not ranking the Exile way up there, but considering Nihilus did that effortlessly, you're expecting me to believe that Sidious will somehow do this in the first ten seconds of the fight:
1. Mask himself from Nihilus' presence and somehow avoid a Force Drain which will make him a lifeless husk. Nevermind the fact that Nihilus can obviously use his eyes, since he saber duelled with the Exile whom, for all intents and purposes, he could not see on a cosmic-Force level.
2. Avoid Sion leaping forward and skewering him, which negates any clumsy meshing that the Jedi had attempted since he'd be over and past the set of chairs and in Sidious' lap.
3. Prevent any Force attacks on his person. You know, like he did with Yoda.
4. Not run like hell.
5. Conjure up an appropriate Force attack which will kill the nigh-unkillable Sion and/or Nihilus.
6. Have the presence of mind to do any of the above with the possibility of defending himself against two powerful Sith Lords who intend to kill him.
Occam's Razor really doesn't help this case at all. I'm sorry, but Sidious loses his ass.
Maybe he gets in a good one on one of his attackers, but in the end it's like the scene in Deliverance with Sion making Sids squeal like a pig.
No, this is more like the scene in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly when Blondie and Angel Eyes take a shot at each other.
Nihilus plays the part of Tuco.
Why, exactly, would it work on Palpatine, who is far more powerful than either Exile or Visas? You also expect me to believe powerful Sith isn't going to be able to react quickly in a battle he's ready for? When Quey'Tek takes very little effort to perform?
It's the entire point that Nihilus doesn't just sit there and try and drain. He has considerable Force powers. He may actually try something else to harm or immobilize Sidious. And there's no guarantee that Quey'Tek is going to make him invisible to Nihilus and/or protect him against Force drain and/or Sion charging over and trying to fight him. If Nihilus sees Sion swinging his glowstick at Sidious, whether or not he can see only Force is moot; he knows someone's there.
For starters, Janus:
1. What was the nature of this fight? Unless it happens in a cutscene, it's of incredibly dubious nature. Secondly, Nihilus, visually, has no eyes whatsoever. the sockets are completely empty
Completely empty?
Those look like eyes to me. Black eyes; doubtless like Traya's:
She can fight and see and all that. Traya could see the Exile when he did not even have the Force anymore. When he was a hole in the Force with nothing left. So obviously the idea of Nihilus being 'OMFG bl1nd to teh teknikee!!!1" is just ridiculous. Nihilus can see passably well, as can Traya who also has atrophied eyes. There's clearly eyes in his sockets.
2. The Exile was not using any sort of technique to mask herself in the Force, as Palpatine would. She is still a presence in the Force
See above. The Exile was a hole in the Force and Traya could see him, react to him, and even reach out and communicate with him. If she can, it stands to good reason that Nihilus can as well.
Besides...
Qey'tek, often mistakenly called Quey'tek, was a Force power not taught, or even widely known among the Jedi by the time of the Clone Wars. It was a technique based on several forms of meditation that allowed one to hide their sensitivity and power with the Force from other Force-users. The best-known user of this power was Palpatine, who appeared Force-blind to even the most skilled Jedi Masters. This ability was also used by Jensaarai to evade notice by the Jedi as well as the Jedi hunters sent to Susevfi in search of Force-users. Asajj Ventress was taught this ability by Dooku, who, in one instance, used it to evade Obi Wan Kenobi while he partook in ceremonial dance.
So we can discern two things about Quey'tek from this:
1. That it's meditation based. This could mean Sidious needs to prep before he can hide himself from others in the Force. I don't really know at the moment if this is the case though, since I do not have the source material onhand to scrutinize. I remember Ventress using something similar, and she could keep it up for awhile, but it took serious focus and concentration to not let herself be detected. I doubt Sidious would have this problem though, since he was chatting it up with Master Yoda on a regular basis.
You could even presume that it's already in affect before the match begins (Which would be shifting the match around and changing the parameters), but we still have the second piece:
2. It only makes someone appear to be Force nonsensitive. That's it.
As we can already tell that Nihilus is not truly blind, he will see regular humans as well. He may not see Sidious as a world bursting at its seams with Force power ready to be eaten, but to presume that Nihilus is busy concentrating on this and not on the Versus fight is really violating the idea of a neutral grounds-type battle. Clearly, Nihilus can tell Sidious is there, even if he seems to lack in force powers. But the moment Sidious uses the Force, the game is up. Sidious cannot actively mask his Force use when he's whipping around, battling with Sion or letting Force Sith Lightning.
why would he be unable to do this? As far as we know, Palpatine is more skilled with a saber than either Sion or Nihilus. Sion rushing him head on is likely going to end with Sion missing an appendage
As far as you assume Sidious is superior, but that remains to be seen. In any case, Sion cannot be killed normally by use of the lightsaber (This is explicit in the final battle between the Exile and Sion, where you repeatedly saber his ass into nothing and he recovers and starts fighting again). Seeing as Sion cannot be killed outright with a simple stab or two (And further seeing as he's not a total loser or newbie who's going to collapse to Sidious' attack like a deck of cards), Sidious will be hard-pressed to kill him before Nihilus can engage. Sion and Nihilus are notably good at using teamwork against superior Sith (Traya, for example).
So yeah, presuming that Sidious is so much better than either one of them that he remains untouched and dispatches them in seconds is presuming too much.
This is not what Quey'Tek does. A force wave is a wave of force hurled out by one. It's the equivalent of ducking behind a chair to avoid strong winds. It will not help against attacks like that. what it will do is leave Nihilus incapable of finding his presence in the Force and thus severing it
Don't misdirect so much though- I'm not saying Quey'tek defends against Force attacks. But obviously unless you assume that Sidious can drop the facade the minute Nihilus and Sion appear in the room (Which may not be fast enough) or that he comes into the fight with it active (Which is not listed in the fight description and is considered stacking the deck) this will turn out to be a regular two-on-one battle. And since clearly Yoda can push Sidious over a chair in a heartbeat, it stands to reason that Sidious can be jumped or taken aback with Force offensives.
I see the fight possibly starting like this:
Nihilus and Sion appear. Sidious recognizes Nihilus and tries to mask himself hoping that he is not eaten like a buffet. Nihilus force pushes Sidious back over his chair. Sion leaps forward to engage him in lightsaber combat since he is the group's tank. Nihilus then either eats the distracted Sidious, freezes him, shocks him, or beats him to death with his own chair.
GG.
So yeah, I can paint incredbly skewed scenarios too.
When they're barring the way to the door? Can you start giving Palpatine a little credit, please?
That was a joke on my part, but really, he did run from Master Yoda.
Like the many secrets he's learned from the Ancient Sith? And he doesn't need to kill Sion: taking off his head should do fine. Really, Sion's immortality is great as a gameplay thing, but will his body stay together if hacked to bits?
Just curious- have you ever substantiated that Sidious knows uber das-kill Sith techniques by the time of RotS? I don't remember if you have.
Anyways, assuming Sidious can find an appropriate Force attack which is instant and will disable one or both of his opponents, this begs for certain proof. Otherwise, I could say "Nihilus had access to the Malachor V Trayus Academy, which was defined as the place of study and training of the Ancient and True Sith, and was their place of evil and reflection for millenia, even after Korriban was abandoned as a funeral world. Therefore, Nihilus and Sion who spent their high school years together there, conjure up Spear of Midnight Black and kill Sidious outright since it's invisible and he would have to react quick enough to deflect a force-thrown invisible spear."
^ See how that works? I can do it too.
Secondly, Sion clearly cannot be overcome by brute force. That's why Exile and his allies fleed the first time, and that's why the Exile has the resort to talking Sion into despair. Clearly, if the Exile can kill the remaining Jedi council one-on-one and yet can't overcome Sion with allies or by himself, that says at least something. Unless you presume that Sion was never hit with a lightsaber during their final battle (instead, he just took a knee and caught his breath and talked about how he couldn't be killed by a blade), it stands to reason that Sion will take more than a few hacks and slashes to be killed. And really, all it takes is enough time for him to tank until Nihilus can hit Sidious with all manners of special abilities.
Let's see: As you've said, they'll 'rush him.' Somehow I don't think he'd have problems using a nigh instantaneous quey'tek and moving to engage with saber. Do you have any proof, whatsoever, of them being able to overcome Palpatine in saber combat?
See above. I think I've made a good argument.
Elegant. No, somehow, I'm banking on any attempt to rush Palpatine ending in the two ancients as completely destroyed. He needs only 'one good one' for an attacker. As he can render himself for all intents and purposes invisible and practically invulnerable to Nihilus's one draw, it leaves Sion with Nihilus fighting blind and Sion is not more powerful with the Force or bette rwith a saber. What will an attempt from him to engage Palpatine end up as? Palpatine severing his arm and head and then moving on to deal with Nihilus?No, this is more like the scene in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly when Blondie and Angel Eyes take a shot at each other.
Nihilus plays the part of Tuco.
You still have to establish how Sidious making himself "instantly" appear Force-feeble will prevent Nihilus from just batting him around or eating him anyways while Sion is hacking at him or perhaps using some of his own Force attacks to down Sidious.
So really, it's not that simple.
First of all, I'd like to see a source which proves that Palpatine can use that Quey'tek thing.
Really, Sion's immortality is great as a gameplay thing, but will his body stay together if hacked to bits?
Yes
Do you have any proof, whatsoever, of them being able to overcome Palpatine in saber combat?
2= more than 1
Secondly, Nihilus, visually, has no eyes whatsoever. the sockets are completely empty
Nihilius could be an alien without the need for eyes
or,
He could simply have some fabric over then for effect.
When they're barring the way to the door? Can you start giving Palpatine a little credit, please?
There's a perfectly good window right behind him.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
It's the entire point that Nihilus doesn't just sit there and try and drain. He has considerable Force powers. He may actually try something else to harm or immobilize Sidious. And there's no guarantee that Quey'Tek is going to make him invisible to Nihilus and/or protect him against Force drain and/or Sion charging over and trying to fight him. If Nihilus sees Sion swinging his glowstick at Sidious, whether or not he can see only Force is moot; he knows someone's there.
See above. The Exile was a hole in the Force and Traya could see him, react to him, and even reach out and communicate with him. If she can, it stands to good reason that Nihilus can as well.
2. It only makes someone appear to be Force nonsensitive. That's it.
As we can already tell that Nihilus is not truly blind, he will see regular humans as well. He may not see Sidious as a world bursting at its seams with Force power ready to be eaten, but to presume that Nihilus is busy concentrating on this and not on the Versus fight is really violating the idea of a neutral grounds-type battle. Clearly, Nihilus can tell Sidious is there, even if he seems to lack in force powers. But the moment Sidious uses the Force, the game is up. Sidious cannot actively mask his Force use when he's whipping around, battling with Sion or letting Force Sith Lightning.
As far as you assume Sidious is superior, but that remains to be seen. In any case, Sion cannot be killed normally by use of the lightsaber (This is explicit in the final battle between the Exile and Sion, where you repeatedly saber his ass into nothing and he recovers and starts fighting again). Seeing as Sion cannot be killed outright with a simple stab or two (And further seeing as he's not a total loser or newbie who's going to collapse to Sidious' attack like a deck of cards), Sidious will be hard-pressed to kill him before Nihilus can engage. Sion and Nihilus are notably good at using teamwork against superior Sith (Traya, for example).
Don't misdirect so much though- I'm not saying Quey'tek defends against Force attacks. But obviously unless you assume that Sidious can drop the facade the minute Nihilus and Sion appear in the room (Which may not be fast enough) or that he comes into the fight with it active (Which is not listed in the fight description and is considered stacking the deck) this will turn out to be a regular two-on-one battle. And since clearly Yoda can push Sidious over a chair in a heartbeat, it stands to reason that Sidious can be jumped or taken aback with Force offensives.
Just curious- have you ever substantiated that Sidious knows uber das-kill Sith techniques by the time of RotS? I don't remember if you have.
Anyways, assuming Sidious can find an appropriate Force attack which is instant and will disable one or both of his opponents, this begs for certain proof. Otherwise, I could say "Nihilus had access to the Malachor V Trayus Academy, which was defined as the place of study and training of the Ancient and True Sith, and was their place of evil and reflection for millenia, even after Korriban was abandoned as a funeral world. Therefore, Nihilus and Sion who spent their high school years together there, conjure up Spear of Midnight Black and kill Sidious outright since it's invisible and he would have to react quick enough to deflect a force-thrown invisible spear."
You still have to establish how Sidious making himself "instantly" appear Force-feeble will prevent Nihilus from just batting him around or eating him anyways while Sion is hacking at him or perhaps using some of his own Force attacks to down Sidious.So really, it's not that simple.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
EDIT: Nihilus doesn't have a physical body, apparently. Goddamn Legacy series. Some crap spewed by Darth Krayt to substantiate this. Before I take this point further, can I get a scan by anyone who has access to the comic?
I believe I have all of them on my computer, which comic is it? I can send you it or send scans..
LS, you may also refer to this thread for other points which add up with mine above.
I have a problem with this because the only thing we really see is him eating a planet, so wouldn't it be more logical to say "considerable force power"? We have seen absolutely nothing else from him. Let me ask you something, Jacen Solo can hide in the force, can hide Lumiya in the force RIGHT in front of Luke Skywalker, but Palpatine couldn't do that against two lesser foes?
When have we ever seen Sidious make someone invisible both visibly and in the Force though? There has to be a reason to believe he has the ability; either he used it, trained someone who used it, or trained with someone who used it or their holocron. If not, Occam's Razor says don't assert it. Otherwise, you have to allow blanket assertions like Nihilus fires the Spear of Midnight Black at Sidious.
I think you're misunderstanding. A hole in the force doesn't make one invisible in the force.
Not exactly, no. Neither does Quey'tek though. But the Exile was elusive in the Force and Nihilus sent Visas out to find him/her because at a cosmic level the Exile was impossible for Nihilus to see across the galaxy.
Again, Jacen and Lumiya were INVISIBLE in the force. Luke learned how to be invisible in the force to ANYBODY but Ben, Jacen couldn't even sense him standing right behind him.
Great for them, but they're not Sidious. Substantiate Sidious can do this too. With sources, please.
Remains to be seen? Sidious has force techniques up the wazoo. No I can't substantiate that but all we've seen from Nihilus is his eating technique and nothing from Sion. It's hard to argue against the fact that Sidious has SOMETHING in his arsenal to put both characters down, because they won't be beating him in a saber duel.
Well, if you assume Sidious has all sorts of powers he's never demonstrated using then by all rights I may assume that Nihilus and Sion, with their vast collection of Force DVDs back on Malachor V, can do all sorts of shit too. Again, Spear of Midnight Black. Sidious can't see it coming. GG.
Sidous dropped his facade the minute Mace Windu died. Yoda could feel him in the force and could feel the force around him, which is why he called him "Darth Sidious" rather than PAlpatine.
So Nihilus, who sees primarily Force-aided, will be blind to Force lightning used around him? Or a Force push? You mean like how Anakin and Mace could not sense Sidious at all? Oh wait, that's wrong, huh?
He didn't develop his instakill until the time of ROTJ.
What instakill?
But you'd have to prove Nihilus found those underground cities like Revan did. Nothing suggests this. What do we know? Sometime after the Jedi Civil War, Nihilus takes his fleet from Malachor V and goes flying.
We see a video of Nihilus and Sion confronting Traya in the Trayus Academy Core. They spent years there. It stands to reason they had time to learn stuff there. Since it's a place of superior learning for the Ancient and True Sith, I submit (Just like you, Escape and LS) that both of them learned the Spear of Midnight Black and will both use it instantly to kill Sidious since they know he's a Sith Lord and a threat.
See how that works?
I believe I have all of them on my computer, which comic is it? I can send you it or send scans..
Star Wars Legacy 5: Broken, Part 4'
Do you have the link for that SW comics webpage? I keep losing it.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]It's the entire point that Nihilus doesn't just sit there and try and drain. He has considerable Force powers. He may actually try something else to harm or immobilize Sidious. And there's no guarantee that Quey'Tek is going to make him invisible to Nihilus and/or protect him against Force drain and/or Sion charging over and trying to fight him. If Nihilus sees Sion swinging his glowstick at Sidious, whether or not he can see only Force is moot; he knows someone's there.
Completely empty?Those look like eyes to me. Black eyes; doubtless like Traya's:
She can fight and see and all that.
Traya could see the Exile when he did not even have the Force anymore.
When he was a hole in the Force with nothing left. So obviously the idea of Nihilus being 'OMFG bl1nd to teh teknikee!!!1" is just ridiculous.
Nihilus can see passably well, as can Traya who also has atrophied eyes. There's clearly eyes in his sockets.
See above. The Exile was a hole in the Force and Traya could see him, react to him, and even reach out and communicate with him. If she can, it stands to good reason that Nihilus can as well.
Besides...
Qey'tek, often mistakenly called Quey'tek, was a Force power not taught, or even widely known among the Jedi by the time of the Clone Wars. It was a technique based on several forms of meditation that allowed one to hide their sensitivity and power with the Force from other Force-users. The best-known user of this power was Palpatine, who appeared Force-blind to even the most skilled Jedi Masters. This ability was also used by Jensaarai to evade notice by the Jedi as well as the Jedi hunters sent to Susevfi in search of Force-users. Asajj Ventress was taught this ability by Dooku, who, in one instance, used it to evade Obi Wan Kenobi while he partook in ceremonial dance.So we can discern two things about Quey'tek from this:
1. That it's meditation based. This could mean Sidious needs to prep before he can hide himself from others in the Force.
I don't really know at the moment if this is the case though, since I do not have the source material onhand to scrutinize. I remember Ventress using something similar, and she could keep it up for awhile, but it took serious focus and concentration to not let herself be detected. I doubt Sidious would have this problem though, since he was chatting it up with Master Yoda on a regular basis.
You could even presume that it's already in affect before the match begins (Which would be shifting the match around and changing the parameters), but we still have the second piece:
As we can already tell that Nihilus is not truly blind, he will see regular humans as well.
He may not see Sidious as a world bursting at its seams with Force power ready to be eaten, but to presume that Nihilus is busy concentrating on this and not on the Versus fight is really violating the idea of a neutral grounds-type battle. Clearly, Nihilus can tell Sidious is there, even if he seems to lack in force powers. But the moment Sidious uses the Force, the game is up. Sidious cannot actively mask his Force use when he's whipping around, battling with Sion or letting Force Sith Lightning.
As far as you assume Sidious is superior, but that remains to be seen.
In any case, Sion cannot be killed normally by use of the lightsaber (This is explicit in the final battle between the Exile and Sion, where you repeatedly saber his ass into nothing and he recovers and starts fighting again).
Seeing as Sion cannot be killed outright with a simple stab or two (And further seeing as he's not a total loser or newbie who's going to collapse to Sidious' attack like a deck of cards), Sidious will be hard-pressed to kill him before Nihilus can engage.
Sion and Nihilus are notably good at using teamwork against superior Sith (Traya, for example).
So yeah, presuming that Sidious is so much better than either one of them that he remains untouched and dispatches them in seconds is presuming too much.
Don't misdirect so much though- I'm not saying Quey'tek defends against Force attacks. But obviously unless you assume that Sidious can drop the facade the minute Nihilus and Sion appear in the room (Which may not be fast enough) or that he comes into the fight with it active (Which is not listed in the fight description and is considered stacking the deck) this will turn out to be a regular two-on-one battle.
And since clearly Yoda can push Sidious over a chair in a heartbeat, it stands to reason that Sidious can be jumped or taken aback with Force offensives.
I see the fight possibly starting like this:Nihilus and Sion appear. Sidious recognizes Nihilus and tries to mask himself hoping that he is not eaten like a buffet. Nihilus force pushes Sidious back over his chair.
Sion leaps forward to engage him in lightsaber combat since he is the group's tank. Nihilus then either eats the distracted Sidious, freezes him, shocks him, or beats him to death with his own chair.
GG.So yeah, I can paint incredbly skewed scenarios too.
That was a joke on my part, but really, he did run from Master Yoda.
Just curious- have you ever substantiated that Sidious knows uber das-kill Sith techniques by the time of RotS? I don't remember if you have.
Anyways, assuming Sidious can find an appropriate Force attack which is instant and will disable one or both of his opponents, this begs for certain proof. Otherwise, I could say "Nihilus had access to the Malachor V Trayus Academy, which was defined as the place of study and training of the Ancient and True Sith, and was their place of evil and reflection for millenia, even after Korriban was abandoned as a funeral world. Therefore, Nihilus and Sion who spent their high school years together there, conjure up Spear of Midnight Black and kill Sidious outright since it's invisible and he would have to react quick enough to deflect a force-thrown invisible spear."
^ See how that works? I can do it too.
Secondly, Sion clearly cannot be overcome by brute force. That's why Exile and his allies fleed the first time, and that's why the Exile has the resort to talking Sion into despair.
Clearly, if the Exile can kill the remaining Jedi council one-on-one and yet can't overcome Sion with allies or by himself, that says at least something.
Unless you presume that Sion was never hit with a lightsaber during their final battle (instead, he just took a knee and caught his breath and talked about how he couldn't be killed by a blade), it stands to reason that Sion will take more than a few hacks and slashes to be killed.
And really, all it takes is enough time for him to tank until Nihilus can hit Sidious with all manners of special abilities.
See above. I think I've made a good argument.You still have to establish how Sidious making himself "instantly" appear Force-feeble will prevent Nihilus from just batting him around or eating him anyways while Sion is hacking at him or perhaps using some of his own Force attacks to down Sidious.
So really, it's not that simple. [/B]
Uh, are you aware how Quey'Tek works? It makes one's Force presence invisible. Completely.
No, it doesn't, it masks a Force User's Force sensitivity to the point where they wouldn't appear to have the potential to wield the Force. If it actually masked Palpatine's force presence, the Jedi would have been able to sense that something was up, and it would have drawn unnecessary attention to him, and would have been counter productive.
Yeah, more point-by-point back and forth.
Let's cut to the chase: here's what I am presenting as the argument thus far.
Assumption One: Sidious will be able to instantly make himself invisible in the Force using the technique of Quel'tek and thus will be immune to Nihilus, as the latter cannot see him whatsoever nor attack him while he is in this meditation.
- The point against: Nowhere has it been noted in an official source that Quel'tek does more than make one seem non-Force sensitive. This is even further elaborated upon by Clone Wars novels, where Jedi routinely refer to Palpatine as a normal person (They are still able to sense him in the Force) but not as Force-capable. Secondly, if Sidious does manage to make himself invisible in the Force, the moment he uses the Force to attack Sion, he reveals himself.
Assumption Two:: Sidious is better by far then either of his opponents singularly, so that even together they are like children before him in saber combat.
- The point against: Nowhere has Sidious' saber mastery been implied or explicitly stated in canon material to be better than either of the Sith Lords. Even if we assume them to be on-par with a basic Jedi Master, their offensive Force abilities and knowledge make them more dangerous. So even if they refrain from attacking him with their glowsticks, they can lob lightning and force stasis at him all day long. Secondly, absence of proof is not proof of absence; just because we don't have completely verifiable stack-ups of lightsaber ability for Nihilus and Sion does not dictate that they are inferior to Sidious because he has a whole five fights under his belt.
Assumption Three:: Sidious has had access to all Sith holocrons of all time and had full time to unlock all of their secrets. These holocrons give Sidious the ability to defeat each and every respective Sith Lord, including Nihilus since Nihilus has a holocron.
- The point against: Nowhere is it a given that Sidious was able to unlock Nihilus' holocron specifically, nor is it a given that Sidious was able to discern enough about Nihilus that he would immediately take the appropriate defense against him in the Force. To add more to this point, even if Sidious knew enough about Nihilus to know his powers in more than a passing interest, there is no guarantee that he would be powerful enough and quick enough to defend himself against Nihilus while having to contend with Sion as well.
Assumption Four:: Since Jacen, a Jedi in another era, used an ability which made him and others effectively invisible, Sidious may do this too.
- The point against: Nowhere has Sidious displayed this ability nor shown that he is among its users; secondly, he never used this ability against Mace Windu, the Jedi masters, or Yoda, which are his only four confirmed saber battles outside of sparring with Darth Maul as of RotS.
Assumption Five:: Sion is barely worth consideration here; he can be decapitated or hacked to pieces without effort by Sidious.
- The point against: Nowhere is it apparent that Sion is easy to kill. Everything we know about him shows otherwise; he could not be physically overcome or killed by the Exile at full strength nor by the Exile backed up with allies. Jedi have fallen before him and he overcame Traya in saber combat rather easily. Instead of trying to act like Sion being worthless as a padawan is evident and gospel, the opposing side should use any sources they can to prove their assertion that he is indeed inferior.
Assumption Six:: The fight between Sion and Nihilus versus Traya is not worth noting.
- The point against: Clearly, Traya is able to mask her presence in the Force too. Perhaps the opposing side here has forgotten, but she masks herself from Atris and is effectively invisible to all Force users in the game when she chooses to be. Considering a woman like this had the same ability as Sidious and was overcome in seconds by Sion and Nihilus does not bode well for Sidious.
Assumption Seven:: Sidious will be more on guard with the Sith Lords and thus will defeat all their Force attacks.
- The point against: Nowhere is Sidious really shown to overcome his opponents solely using the Force as of RotS nor is he shown having an adequate defense. He is pushed effortlessly by Yoda in a heartbeat, he cannot push back Mace or otherwise impair him using the Force. He could not stop the pod Yoda pushed back at him upwards and against gravity whereas Yoda had the ability to stop the same pod descending without any effort whatsoever. Couple this with losing his Sith Lightning struggle against a smaller being who was on a ledge hanging by only his toe-claws and suddenly Sidious' Force defense comes into serious question. Nowhere is it substantiated that Sidious will have a sufficient Force defense against two who have overcome someone with higher showings (Traya versus RotS Sidious).
