AOTC Dooku Vs Darth Revan

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Of course his numbers add up. He had a knowledge of dark side abilities that easily surpass those of Dooku, whose power was force lightning. Sorry but Dooku's force abilities just don't add up to Revans/

Oh really? So the stuff a person is shown using is now equal to the stuff the same person knows? Great idea, kid. But in this case, Revan would be limited to force lightning only either. Since that's the only force power he did use canonically. Oh well. Can it be that Dooku actually had access to more Dark Side techniques than just force lightning?

Especially if we look at that here (Dark Rendevouz):
Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.
"Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."
Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.
"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."

Oh well. What's that? A force technique that stretches (and at the end destroys) your blood vessels? Sounds pretty badass. Especially considering that Dooku uses it against Asajj Ventress (a good match for post-AotC Anakin). That aside from his ability to deflect force lightning with his bare hands (only done by Yoda and Sidious aside of him), force choke people like Obi-Wan Kenobi and other nice TK actions (AotC force duel with Yoda, later fights as well)

You saying this nonsense doesn't make it so.

Ah. Yes.
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student!" (Yoda on Dooku in Dark Rendevouz)

Apparently Dooku is one of the greatest force users in his own era. Yoda puts him over all Jedi when it comes to force mastery (and he does own people like Tholme, Sora Bulq, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress with force attacks rather easily) meaning that - if you reduce it to actual force mastery - Dooku is number 3 in his own era. Just behind Yoda and Sidious (so the most powerful Jedi and the most powerful Sith in history until that point in time). Yup. Sounds as if the guy does really suck.

You mean throw sith lightning? LOL. Revan taught Bane a large amount of ancient sith techniques. It is unlikely Dooku even knew ONE of them. Sorry, Dooku loses in the force department.

Wow. And now the amount of force techniques you know is the deciding factor in a battle. Really. What Revan taught Bane through the holocron were ancient Sith rituals (among them the one Bane used to channel the powers of the BoD and the thought bomb). So what? None of that is useable in a force fight.

Yet you also don't know what Sidious did teach Dooku (and apparently he had to teach Dooku some nice stuff - to lure the guy with 7 decades of Jedi training over to the Dark Side). Not to mention that Dooku not only studied the holocron of Darth Andeddu but also studied another Sith holocron when he was a young man (the same he stole out of the Jedi Temple on coruscant).

So even if Sidious didn't teach Dooku more than force lightning, Darth Tyranus did have other sources to learn Sith teachings from and had them long before he med Sidious.

If by impressive you mean 1 ability and a weakness to negate that ability, sure.

Well. Do you think Malak could defeat the likes of Nihilus or Traya? I seriously doubt that.

In force? Revan would absolutely take it. In saber combat, Dooku would take it. In an all out fight? Revan is the superior tactician and the more powerful force user, so he wins.

Oh. Revan is a superior tactician in comparison to the guy that talked several powerful organisations and thousands of star-systems into joining the CIS? And Revan is also more powerful than the guy that Yoda considered to be the second most powerful Jedi in the PT era (behind himself) who was "even more powerful as a Sith Lord"? A guy that studied the ways of the Jedi for seven decades, a guy that studied the ways of the Sith for more than one decade and had access to at least 2 Sith holocrons (one even when he was a young man) - aside from whatever Sidious gave him.

Another thing that might limit Dooku's sith training is the fact that his master is the supreme chancellor of the republic. Sidious doesn't have the same amount of time to train Dooku,who he himself might face a tough time if he is seen with Sidious in secret or even in the general public being that he was in exile. Plus Dooku was busy laying in the ground works for the CIS and the upcoming clone wars.

Yeah. Right. And Revan wasn't busy leading two full-scale wars (Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War)? That aside from the fact that Dooku didn't appear in the public between 33 and 24 BBY, meaning that are 9 years in which he did pretty much nothing except learning Sith teachings - quite more time than Revan had to do the same, eh?

Nai, I can agree with most of that, except for the notion that Count Dooku is a tactition on par with Darth Revan. There is no basis for that conclusion, since Dooku left the militaristic needs of the war to individuals such as General Grievous and Sev'rance Tann. As a political strategist, you'd have a decent argument. But militarily? Dooku just does not compare.

Originally posted by Gideon
Nai, I can agree with most of that, except for the notion that Count Dooku is a tactition on par with Darth Revan. There is no basis for that conclusion, since Dooku left the militaristic needs of the war to individuals such as General Grievous and Sev'rance Tann. As a political strategist, you'd have a decent argument. But militarily? Dooku just does not compare.

Well. You shouldn't confuse military genious with one on one lightsaber tactics. Dooku has shown the ability to dominate lightsaber fights against multiple opponents rather easily (Anakin + Obi-Wan; Sora Bulq + Tholme) and also seems to be quite able to manipulate the enviroment according to his means (distracting Yoda in AotC and DR) or use the enviroment to gain the upper hand on his opponents.

As Qui-Gons spirit tells Yoda in Dark Rendevouz: "He is a fencer. Leverage, position, advantage—they are as natural to him as breathing."

Yet I wonder what Revans military genious would do here. Or are the both combatants allowed to bring armies with them - or prepare the ground before their duel?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right. And Revan wasn't busy leading two full-scale wars (Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War)? That aside from the fact that Dooku didn't appear in the public between 33 and 24 BBY, meaning that are 9 years in which he did pretty much nothing except learning Sith teachings - quite more time than Revan had to do the same, eh?

Never said it didn't. What I did say was that it was hard for Sidious and Dooku to train together to Sidious's occupation as the supreme chancellor. And it would be unwise for the two to be seen together in public because it might have raised some questions from the jedi

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh really? So the stuff a person is shown using is now equal to the stuff the same person knows? Great idea, kid. But in this case, Revan would be limited to force lightning only either. Since that's the only force power he did use canonically. Oh well. Can it be that Dooku actually had access to more Dark Side techniques than just force lightning?

Apparently Dooku [b]is one of the greatest force users in his own era. Yoda puts him over all Jedi when it comes to force mastery (and he does own people like Tholme, Sora Bulq, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress with force attacks rather easily) meaning that - if you reduce it to actual force mastery - Dooku is number 3 in his own era. Just behind Yoda and Sidious (so the most powerful Jedi and the most powerful Sith in history until that point in time). Yup. Sounds as if the guy does really suck.

Wow. And now the amount of force techniques you know is the deciding factor in a battle. Really. What Revan taught Bane through the holocron were ancient Sith rituals (among them the one Bane used to channel the powers of the BoD and the thought bomb). So what? None of that is useable in a force fight.

Yet you also don't know what Sidious did teach Dooku (and apparently he had to teach Dooku some nice stuff - to lure the guy with 7 decades of Jedi training over to the Dark Side). Not to mention that Dooku not only studied the holocron of Darth Andeddu but also studied another Sith holocron when he was a young man (the same he stole out of the Jedi Temple on coruscant).

So even if Sidious didn't teach Dooku more than force lightning, Darth Tyranus did have other sources to learn Sith teachings from and had them long before he med Sidious.

Well. Do you think Malak could defeat the likes of Nihilus or Traya? I seriously doubt that.

quote]Oh. Revan is a superior tactician in comparison to the guy that talked several powerful organisations and thousands of star-systems into joining the CIS? And Revan is also more powerful than the guy that Yoda considered to be the second most powerful Jedi in the PT era (behind himself) who was "even more powerful as a Sith Lord"? A guy that studied the ways of the Jedi for seven decades, a guy that studied the ways of the Sith for more than one decade and had access to at least 2 Sith holocrons (one even when he was a young man) - aside from whatever Sidious gave him. [/quote]
As escape said, there is nothing that proves Dooku is even on the same level as Revan in this regard.

Yeah. Right. And Revan wasn't busy leading two full-scale wars (Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War)? That aside from the fact that Dooku didn't appear in the public between 33 and 24 BBY, meaning that are 9 years in which he did pretty much nothing except learning Sith teachings - quite more time than Revan had to do the same, eh? [/B]

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh really? So the stuff a person is shown using is now equal to the stuff the same person knows? Great idea, kid. But in this case, Revan would be limited to force lightning only either. Since that's the only force power he did use canonically.

1) Revan force choked a Republic Officer to death in just 2 seconds in his flag-ship. (This was shown in a cutscene.)
2) Revan used a powerful variant of Force Lightning on the Rakatan scouting parties to kill them quickly.
3) Revan also ripped through the minds of the Rakatans and forced basic in to their skulls, so that he would be able to understand their conversations. Now what should we call this technique? Force Mind Ripping

So we have 3 of Revan' abilities to talk about from just one source. So how can you conclude that Revan would also be limited to just one ability in any case?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. And now the amount of force techniques you know is the deciding factor in a battle. Really. What Revan taught Bane through the holocron were ancient Sith rituals (among them the one Bane used to channel the powers of the BoD and the thought bomb). So what? None of that is useable in a force fight.

You forgot to note that Revan possessed the ability to use the famed Force Lightning Storm by just himself and without any aid. And he knew lot more than these two powers.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yet you also don't know what Sidious did teach Dooku (and apparently he had to teach Dooku some nice stuff - to lure the guy with 7 decades of Jedi training over to the Dark Side). Not to mention that Dooku not only studied the holocron of Darth Andeddu but also studied another Sith holocron when he was a young man (the same he stole out of the Jedi Temple on coruscant).

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. Revan is a superior tactician in comparison to the guy that talked several powerful organisations and thousands of star-systems into joining the CIS?

1) He easily managed to become the leader of the Republic fleets through his talent and skills and also managed to lure many Jedi to his cause, even when the Jedi Council forbade all the Jedi to participate in the war and than through his clever tactics, turned the tide of the war in the Republic's favor, when it seemed to loose against the Mandalorians. And such was the extent of Revan' leadership skills that the results spoke for themselves; The enemy (that had the upper-hand previously) was not just defeated, but it was nearly wiped out.

2) And things did not stopped just there, as Revan wanted more. He was trying to set his greater plans in to motion through a very careful strategic planning. He understood in advance that to accomplish his greater plans, he needs to do more than just destroying the enemy. He also decided to eliminate those who might question his authority or ambitions in the near future and time was short. Hence, he secretly planned to eliminate the armies of the Republic (whose loyality to him was questionable) along with the major enemy. The battle of Malachor V serves as a good example of this accomplishment. In short words, he planned and managed to eliminate two major threats with a single stroke. Brilliant! Isn't it?

3) Now what were the greater plans of Revan? He decided to do that few Sith Lords attempted to accomplish in the SW mythos - To conquer the Republic. And at the same time, prepare to battle against the True Sith faction. Now to accomplish his greater plans, he managed to convert thousands of the Jedi loyal to him in to the Sith and the Dark Jedi (unlike using the Order 66 type tactic) and initiated a double-edged sword type strategy to deal with both the threats of the Jedi Council and the Republic itself. Against the Jedi Council, he started a "shadow war" to cripple them from behind the scenes (source: The Chronicles) and against the forces loyal only to the Republic, he unleashed his nearly unstoppable armies and carried out the invasion process with brutal efficiency. Now it was the betrayal that actually stopped him or else Revan would have succeeded in his ambitions just like Sidious.

4) And Revan also understood the importance of forming an alliance with the powerful organizations spanning accross the galaxy and guess what? He managed to convince several powerful organizations to join him and support him financially in his efforts against the Republic. The famous Czerka Corporation was also among them.

5) Revan also knew how to keep his plans as top secret. His enemies never knew what was going to happen to them above the Malachor V. Heck, not even many generals serving Revan knew about what Revan had planned to do with his enemies.

Thus! In several ways, he mimics Darth Sidious. So now who is more impressive tactican?

Originally posted by Borbarad
And Revan is also more powerful than the guy that Yoda considered to be the second most powerful Jedi in the PT era (behind himself) who was "even more powerful as a Sith Lord"? A guy that studied the ways of the Jedi for seven decades, a guy that studied the ways of the Sith for more than one decade and had access to at least 2 Sith holocrons (one even when he was a young man) - aside from whatever Sidious gave him.

Revan was so wise, knowledgeable and powerful that he impressed several Sith Lords including Ajunta Pall, Darth Malak, Darth Traya and Darth Bane.

And I am willing to bet that even Count Dooku will be impressed by him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right. And Revan wasn't busy leading two full-scale wars (Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War)? That aside from the fact that Dooku didn't appear in the public between 33 and 24 BBY, meaning that are 9 years in which he did pretty much nothing except learning Sith teachings - quite more time than Revan had to do the same, eh?

A) He got the time to visit the world of Malachor V and plunder its treaures.
B) He got the time to visit the world of Korriban and plunder its treasures.
C) He got the time to visit Lehon and learn its secrets.
D) He got the time to find and locate an ancient super-weapon called the "Star Forge."

Sidious suceeded. Revan did not. It is very hard to suggest that the two were somehow on par.

That said, where've ya been, Lejj?

Originally posted by Gideon
Sidious suceeded. Revan did not. It is very hard to suggest that the two were somehow on par.

That said, where've ya been, Lejj?

My actual point is that Revan does mimics Darth Sidious in several cases and I have proved it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you have to repeat these lines in every case? Did I said that Revan was fully on par with Sidious?

My actual point is that Revan does mimics Darth Sidious in several cases and I have proved it.

Easy, killer. No need to get hostile because of your embittered past. That Darth Revan "mimics" Darth Sidious (which really isn't apparent) doesn't conclude, suggest, or insinuate that he is better than Dooku.

Originally posted by Gideon
Easy, killer. No need to get hostile because of your embittered past. That Darth Revan "mimics" Darth Sidious (which really isn't apparent) doesn't conclude, suggest, or insinuate that he is better than Dooku.

You think that Sidious is far above every Sith Lord from each and every perspective and aspect, but this is your perception.

No one is comparing Sidious with Revan over here. No one is suggesting that Revan is somehow over-all on par with Sidious but it is indeed true that Revan does compares with Sidious in some aspects and I have described a few.

So better stop this Sidious-humping for once in a debate! OK!

My original point is that Revan is superior tactican than Dooku and I have proved it.

Also you seem to forget that at one point, even your beloved Sidious was going to get it during a confrontation with the Jedi but thanks to that idiot Anakin Skywalker, his sorry @ss was saved.

However, this does not means Sidious was not good.

But when Revan was confronted by the Jedi, his apprentice actually turned against him. Now this does not means that Revan was not capable of conquering the Republic. He was indeed that damn good and prepared but he was not that lucky.

Originally posted by S_W_Legend
Now wait a minute! Who is getting defensive over here? Is it me or you?

Well, I'm sure we could host a poll, but I'm fairly certain that you'd get all the votes. After all, you're the one who is using imperatives and exclamation points and jumping to conclusions about "Sidious humping" (very nasty) even though I did not make an argument regarding Sidious or attack you for comparing Revan to him. I simply said that comparing the two is not a logical basis for the predisposition that Count Dooku is inferior to Revan; which is something that I haven't disagreed with (twice I've noted that Revan is Dooku's clear superior in all but strict lightsaber ability and that one cannot compare Dooku to Revan as a tactition). So, there's no factual basis for claiming that I'm getting defensive, as I seem to be the only calm and objective person in this discussion.

You think that Sidious is far above every Sith Lord from each and every perspective and aspect, but this is your perception.

I'm not looking to make this into a discussion about Sidious, Legend, though I will compliment you for your efforts in doing so. Sidious is "far above" most Sith Lords and just "above" all of them. This isn't so much perception as it is fact, though.

No one is comparing Sidious with Revan over here. No one is suggesting that Revan is somehow over-all on par with Sidious but it is indeed true that Revan does compares with Sidious in some aspects and I have described a few.

Well, this speaks for itself.

So better stop this Sidious-humping for once in a debate! OK!

I'm not the one who is making an embittered passage on a thread about Sidious that has nothing to do with him.

My original point is that Revan is superior tactican than Dooku and I have proved it.

I'll refrain from submitting you to a virtual torture session of barbs and sarcasm and point out that I disagreed with Nai on this very same point before you and also point out that you're deviating from your course, sport.

Also you seem to forget that at one point, even your beloved Sidious was going to get it during a confrontation with the Jedi but thanks to that idiot Anakin Skywalker, his sorry @ss was saved.

No one indicated, implied, stated, suggested, or insinuated that he was infallible. Certainly not on this thread. It was simply pointed out that the suggestion (without proof, I might add) that Revan somehow mimics Sidious indicates that he's superior to Dooku is not logical.

How are things at home, Lejj? You seem to be even more frayed and spastic.

However, this does not means Sidious was not good.

Of course not. Anyone tell you that you're like a walking argument? You seem to be keen on arguing both sides. 😛

But when Revan was confronted by the Jedi, his apprentice actually turned against him. Now this does not means that Revan was not capable of conquering the Republic. He was indeed that damn good and prepared but he was not that lucky.

No one suggested that Revan wasn't capable of conquering the Republic. But he failed. Like Sidious, at Endor, he failed to forsee the betrayal of his apprentice. There are two differences, however, the first being that Palpatine had already ruled the galaxy for two decades and the second being that Vader's betrayal was born due to love for his son, whereas Malak's betrayal was classical ambition, which Revan should have reasonably prepared for.

Might want to get back on topic, sport. 🙂

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Of course his numbers add up. He had a knowledge of dark side abilities

How come we can assume he had more knowledge than Dooku based on the irrelevant musings of Bane, when Dooku has been SHOWN (in detail) to be a consumate Sith Lord and Jedi Master?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You saying this nonsense doesn't make it so.

How are you able to say this when all we know about Revan's force mastery is that he knew ancient Sith rituals, which count for nothing in combat (which is what we're discussing)? In terms of combat effective uses of the Jedi/Sith arts, Dooku has Revan beat.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You mean throw sith lightning? LOL. Revan taught Bane a large amount of ancient sith techniques. It is unlikely Dooku even knew ONE of them. Sorry, Dooku loses in the force department. .

Such as? Don't tell me thought bomb, because we all know a thought bomb requires the participation of others. Give us a run down of this awesome knowledge that Revan gave to Bane.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If by impressive you mean 1 ability and a weakness to negate that ability, sure.

So you don't think Dooku's ability to fend of multiple dangerous foes is impressive? Or his ability to stand up to Yoda even though Yoda has him beat in FP? Are you telling me Revan would be a bigger threat than ROTS Anakin and ObiWan (together), as well AOTC Yoda?

Really, Dooku is the superior duelist and would win in an all out battle. And if Revan has any superiority in FP it's minimal (minimal enough to be negated by Dooku's equally impressive FP).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
In an all out fight? Revan is the superior tactician and the more powerful force user, so he wins.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, no way is Revan outhinking Dooku in a duel. Dooku's great ability in combat is not merely dependant on his skills but also on his ability to outsmart/outfox his opponents. No way would Revan outhtink this guy in a duel. Perhaps in a battlefield where they'd be controlling armies, but not in one-on-one combat.

EDIT: And please for the sake of sanity, give us the evidence of Revan's knowledge on combat effective force techniques, not forum consensus.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, I'm sure we could host a poll, but I'm fairly certain that you'd get all the votes. After all, you're the one who is using imperatives and exclamation points and jumping to conclusions about "Sidious humping" (very nasty) even though I did not make an argument regarding Sidious or attack you for comparing Revan to him. I simply said that comparing the two is not a logical basis for the predisposition that Count Dooku is inferior to Revan; which is something that I haven't disagreed with (twice I've noted that Revan is Dooku's clear superior in all but strict lightsaber ability and that one cannot compare Dooku to Revan as a tactition). So, there's no factual basis for claiming that I'm getting defensive, as I seem to be the only calm and objective person in this discussion.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not looking to make this into a discussion about Sidious, Legend, though I will compliment you for your efforts in doing so. Sidious is "far above" most Sith Lords and just "above" all of them. This isn't so much perception as it is fact, though.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, this speaks for itself.

1) Like Sidous, Revan was also very clever and excelled at strategic planning.

2) Like Sidious, Revan also managed to establish a Sith Empire.

3) Like Sidious, Revan also planned to eliminate the Jedi. He managed to hide his true attentions from them and initiated a “shadow war” against them. Though Revan was more inclined to turn as many Jedi to his cause as possible. And by the time, the Jedi came to know the truth, it was already too late.

4) Like Sidious, Revan also planned to conquer the galaxy. And the first step was to gain a solid foot-hold over the Republic by conquering it, but keeping as much of its infrastructure intact as possible. He started this conquest with brutal efficiency and it was only a matter of time, when the core worlds were about to fall too.

5) Like Sidious, Revan also used super-weapons to fuel his war machine.

6) Like Sidious, Revan also believed in the philosophy of Rule of Two. In-fact, this was actually Revan’ idea to begin with.

So in logical sense, Revan did mimicked Sidious in some aspects.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not the one who is making an embittered passage on a thread about Sidious that has nothing to do with him.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'll refrain from submitting you to a virtual torture session of barbs and sarcasm and point out that I disagreed with Nai on this very same point before you and also point out that you're deviating from your course, sport.

Originally posted by Gideon
No one indicated, implied, stated, suggested, or insinuated that he was infallible. Certainly not on this thread. It was simply pointed out that the suggestion (without proof, I might add) that Revan somehow mimics Sidious indicates that he's superior to Dooku is not logical.

Now the purpose of a small line below those points is to simply indicate that Revan even mimiced Sidious in some aspects and we know that Sidious was clearly Dooku' superior. And I have mentioned the reasons above that why I think as such.

Originally posted by Gideon
How are things at home, Lejj? You seem to be even more frayed and spastic.

Originally posted by Gideon
Of course not. Anyone tell you that you're like a walking argument? You seem to be keen on arguing both sides. 😛

Originally posted by Gideon
No one suggested that Revan wasn't capable of conquering the Republic. But he failed. Like Sidious, at Endor, he failed to forsee the betrayal of his apprentice. There are two differences, however, the first being that Palpatine had already ruled the galaxy for two decades and the second being that Vader's betrayal was born due to love for his son, whereas Malak's betrayal was classical ambition, which Revan should have reasonably prepared for.

Now Revan eventually got caught in an awkward position and his apprentice took that as an opportunity.

But these are all secondary tales. I am actually talking about Revan' talents, skills and capabilities. This has nothing to do with what happened in the SW Saga.

And Sidious also had luck by his side.

Originally posted by Gideon
Might want to get back on topic, sport. 🙂

Originally posted by Allankles
How come we can assume he had more knowledge than Dooku based on the irrelevant musings of Bane, when Dooku has been SHOWN (in detail) to be a consumate Sith Lord and Jedi Master?

He respects Revan a lot and his opinion about him makes it clear that Revan possessed immense knowledge of the Sith Lore.

It has been indicated even in The Chronicles that Revan wielded tremendous dark side power.

And check this quote from The Chronicles as well: "Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side."

Revan also discovered the location of the Korriban and visited that planet to learn more.

And do you remember what Yoda said to Dooku in Geonosis? He said this: "Much to learn, you still have."

So now you still think that Dooku possessed more knowledge than Revan did?

Originally posted by Allankles
How are you able to say this when all we know about Revan's force mastery is that he knew ancient Sith rituals, which count for nothing in combat (which is what we're discussing)? In terms of combat effective uses of the Jedi/Sith arts, Dooku has Revan beat.

From just the KOTOR game alone, we came to know that Revan demonstrated exceptional proficiency in using TK, Force Choke, Force Lightning, Force Lightning Storm and the Force Mind Ripping technique.

Now also add Malak in to the equation, since he was once Revan' apprentice and you can attribute more techniques to Revan including the capability to generate and use: Death Field, Stasis Field and Force Whirlwind in combat.

And it is clearly evident from the canon sources: A) Darth Bane: POD and B) The Chronicles that Revan' knowledge of the Sith Lore was indeed very vast.

Originally posted by Allankles
Such as? Don't tell me thought bomb, because we all know a thought bomb requires the participation of others. Give us a run down of this awesome knowledge that Revan gave to Bane.

And Bane also pointed out that some techniques that Revan knew were too dangerous to try.

Originally posted by Allankles
So you don't think Dooku's ability to fend of multiple dangerous foes is impressive? Or his ability to stand up to Yoda even though Yoda has him beat in FP? Are you telling me Revan would be a bigger threat than ROTS Anakin and ObiWan (together), as well AOTC Yoda?

Also! Do you think that Anakin Skywalker was more formidable than AOTC Yoda? And yet he was able to subdue Count Dooku during his second encounter with him.

Revan will be indeed a bigger threat to him than Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Allankles
Really, Dooku is the superior duelist and would win in an all out battle. And if Revan has any superiority in FP it's minimal (minimal enough to be negated by Dooku's equally impressive FP).

A) Considering the opinions of several Sith Lords who were impressed by his power including: Ajunta Pall, Darth Malak, Darth Traya and Darth Bane.
B) Statements from The Chronicles.

Originally posted by Allankles
I've said this before and I'll say it again, no way is Revan outhinking Dooku in a duel. Dooku's great ability in combat is not merely dependant on his skills but also on his ability to outsmart/outfox his opponents. No way would Revan outhtink this guy in a duel. Perhaps in a battlefield where they'd be controlling armies, but not in one-on-one combat.

And you seem to forget that Revan was also a very clever and smart fighter. He could overcome difficult challenges even without using the Force, as evident from his exploits in Taris and this also impressed Bastilla Shan.

And with the Force, he stopped the nearly unstoppable.

Originally posted by Allankles
EDIT: And please for the sake of sanity, give us the evidence of Revan's knowledge on combat effective force techniques, not forum consensus.

Originally posted by S_W_Legend
I have proved this before and I will say it again that Revan is smarter than Count Dooku.

Well, since you say so...

Bare in mind that Revan was declared a Prodigal Knight at the end of Star Wars source Knights of the Old Republic! So he does indeed mimics Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Since when did Bane' opinion about Revan became irrelevant? You seem to forget that Bane is considered to be among the most famous and successful Sith Lords in SW Saga and his opinions do hold merit.

He respects Revan a lot and his opinion about him makes it clear that Revan possessed immense knowledge of the Sith Lore.

It has been indicated even in The Chronicles that Revan wielded [b]tremendous dark side power.

And check this quote from The Chronicles as well: "Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side."

Revan also discovered the location of the Korriban and visited that planet to learn more.

And do you remember what Yoda said to Dooku in Geonosis? He said this: "Much to learn, you still have."

So now you still think that Dooku possessed more knowledge than Revan did?

How can you say that Revan only knew some Sith Rituals?

From just the KOTOR game alone, we came to know that Revan demonstrated exceptional proficiency in using TK, Force Choke, Force Lightning, Force Lightning Storm and the Force Mind Ripping technique.

Now also add Malak in to the equation, since he was once Revan' apprentice and you can attribute more techniques to Revan including the capability to generate and use: Death Field, Stasis Field and Force Whirlwind in combat.

And it is clearly evident from the canon sources: A) Darth Bane: POD and B) The Chronicles that Revan' knowledge of the Sith Lore was indeed very vast.

What about the famed Force Lightning Storm? And not to forget that Revan did possessed the capability to use this technique in combat by himself.

And Bane also pointed out that some techniques that Revan knew were too dangerous to try.

And you don't think that Revan' ability to fend of attacks from large number of Battle Droids, Dark Jedi and heavily armed Sith Troopers in the Star Forge is impressive? And you forget to note that the Sith Lords stationed on the Star Forge were also unable to overcome him, even when their powers were boosted by the Star Forge itself.

Also! Do you think that Anakin Skywalker was more formidable than AOTC Yoda? And yet he was able to subdue Count Dooku during his second encounter with him.

Revan will be indeed a bigger threat to him than Anakin Skywalker.

Your conclusion is wrong. Revan is clearly the superior warrior in this case and he will win in an all out battle. And Revan' superiority over Dooku in terms of FP is well established by following:

A) Considering the opinions of several Sith Lords who were impressed by his power including: Ajunta Pall, Darth Malak, Darth Traya and Darth Bane.
B) Statements from The Chronicles.

I have proved this before and I will say it again that Revan is smarter than Count Dooku. The 5 points that I have mentioned in one of my previous posts in this thread make this case very clear.

And you seem to forget that Revan was also a very clever and smart fighter. He could overcome difficult challenges even without using the Force, as evident from his exploits in Taris and this also impressed Bastilla Shan.

And with the Force, he stopped the nearly unstoppable.

Check above. [/B]

Originally posted by 666.3
Bare in mind that Revan was declared a [b]Prodigal Knight at the end of Star Wars source Knights of the Old Republic! So he does indeed mimics Darth Sidious. [/B]

You know, for a second, I was beginning to think you'd caught Lejj's disease... we have vaccines for that shit.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
IT doesn't matter what he used, and it was a miniature force storm.

Nope. It was the "force storm" technique from the KotoR games which is just an upgrade of force lightning in the matter of sense that the lightning is directed upwards and then hits multiple targets around the Dark Sider using it. Which wouldn't be effective against a single opponent - even less against a single opponent who has shown the ability to defend himself against force lightning.

It matters that his knowledge was extremely broad, including knowledge of Korriban and Malachor V. Before you ask me to substantiate this, let me remind you that according to Bane, Revan had an extended knowledge of ancient sith techniques. Dooku is limited to what, force lightning that was blocked by Obiwan's saber?

Whoopie. I could say that Dooku's knowledge was also broad because he did study the force for 7 decades as a Jedi and another decade as a Sith Lord. Yoda even says that Dooku is the student of the Jedi Temple that is "most learned in the ways of the force" putting him straight over any other Jedi in the PT era with the exception of Yoda himself.

And sorry. Dooku, aside of force lightning, has also demonstrated abilities like force grip (against Obi-Wan in RotS), an unknown technique which he used to force Ventress down rather easily (stretching her blood vessels in a manner they were about to "pop like baloons"😉. Aside of that he demonstrated vast telikinetic abilities, is a master of Qey'Tek and can push his physical abilities to an extend that allows him to challenge much younger Jedi even in 2vs1 situations.

And please. If you want to limit it to real displays of power than Revan is limited to force choke and lightning (up to the "force storm" version). That aside from the fact that you've still not proven that any of the supposed uber Sith abilities Revan has knowledge about is useable in combat situations (since neither him nor Bane is actually using anything special in combat).

So because he was able to subdue Ventress, he is on par with the most powerful force user of the KOTOR time? In that case Revan blows Dooku out of the water because his miniature force storm can kill multiple users around him, nevermind whatever else he had in that holocron.

You know that there is a difference between a force user being attacked with the force and some being that doesn't have abilities like that? Right. Force users are capable of withstanding or countering force attacks. Yet Dooku trashes rather many people with his offensive force abilities (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress, Tholme, Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos - just to name some) without much difficulty.

Nobody said he sucks, but that isn't enough to put him on par with Revan.

Putting somebody on par with Revan means putting somebody on par with a relative unknown. Sure. He is the strongest of his era. Now what? Dooku is the number 3 of his own era when it came to force mastery - and that behind the strongest Sith Lord and the strongest Jedi Master up to that point in the history of the SW universe. I really wonder how something like that can be dismissed that easily.

Revan had the knowledge of the underground cities of MAlachor V, same place where Traya, Sion and Niihilus learned the force drain. Revan had extended knowledge of korriban before it was plundered.

Urm. Nope. Traya and Nihilus didn't "learn" the force drain. Kreia even says that it's a technique that "CAN NOT BE MASTERED". And Korriban was already almost completely plundered when Kun came there. I wonder how Revan could have found anything there - especially if you think about the fact that even the tombs of people like Ragnos or Horde (who weren't plundered before) didn't contain any knowledge.

I don't have to know what Sidious taught Dooku, because there isn't any evidence of him teaching Dooku certain abilities other than force lightning.

With the exception of the quote from Dark Rendevouz that I have already posted? And please. You are also not able to tell me what Revan learned from Malachor or Korriban - yet you still keep saying "but Revan plundered Korriban and Malachor" like a broken record.

If you are going to claim Sidious taught Dooku various techniques, prove up. Not to mention that according to Jedi vs. Sith, it didn't take Sidious much to convince Dooku to join the darkside, especially since Dooku had a fascination with sith holocrons. Not to mention you have no proof of him studying the holocron him and Lorian Nod stole.

Oh yes. Dooku always had a fascination and held the belief that the Dark Side should also be studied in a controlled fashion - which was the reason why he never had a seat in the Jedi Council. But that, in turn, means that Dooku studied the Dark Side already before he met Sidious.

And please. Dooku steals the holocron out of the temple again during the Clone Wars - that aside from the fact that he had the holocron of Darth Andeddu.

This would be acceptable if we knew anything about Darth Andeddu.

You mean except from the fact that the dude kept his body alive after having already died? Not to mention that his freaking holocron image was able to use the force against Darth Krayt to have him temporaly consumed by his own armor?

Probably not because they have their patented force drains.. But one could argue that if Traya didn't have a force bond with the exile, she wouldn't be able to do what she did, otherwise she could have taken care of Sion just as easily. I would give overall force mastery to Malak though, especially star forge powered Malak

Because Malak did what exactly with the force?

As escape said, there is nothing that proves Dooku is even on the same level as Revan in this regard.

And as I said: Military genious wouldn't have any influence in a force or lightsaber duel, unless the participants are bringing their own armies to the battle.

I'm glad you know what he did those 9 years... Oh wait, assumptions for dummies. I could say that he spent those 9 years on his home planet of Serenno doing what philanthropists do..

Oh wow.
I do know what he did in the 70 years before that. Studying the force. I wonder how you came to the idea that somebody who wanted to become the greatest Jedi of all times and who saw himself as the true Chosen One would not spend his time with training his force and lightsaber abilities - especially when there is nothing else to do for him.

He still had more time for learning than Revan had during the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War and in the 6 months passing between them (where he was searching for the Star Forge).

And don't get me wrong, Sexy. I'm not outright stating that Dooku was more powerful than Revan. I'm just saying that it's mere speculation to state that Revan had more force knowledge than Dooku because Dooku did spent far more time learning Jedi teachings - to an extend where he could deflect force lightning with his bare hands (and really - that feat is damn uncommon given that any Dark Side with exception of Vader is using that ability) and then had more than 4 times the time Revan had to study the secrets of the Sith (13 years in comparison to 3 years).

Yes. Revan might defeat him in a force fight. But I doubt that would be a piece of cake (and this is how some people here make it look like) considering Dooku's force abilities and his actual training time in the ways of the Jedi and the Sith.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nope. It was the "force storm" technique from the KotoR games which is just an upgrade of force lightning in the matter of sense that the lightning is directed upwards and then hits multiple targets around the Dark Sider using it. Which wouldn't be effective against a single opponent - even less against a single opponent who has shown the ability to defend himself against force lightning.

Whoopie. I could say that Dooku's knowledge was also broad because he did study the force for [b]7 decades as a Jedi and another decade as a Sith Lord. Yoda even says that Dooku is the student of the Jedi Temple that is "most learned in the ways of the force" putting him straight over any other Jedi in the PT era with the exception of Yoda himself.

And sorry. Dooku, aside of force lightning, has also demonstrated abilities like force grip (against Obi-Wan in RotS), an unknown technique which he used to force Ventress down rather easily (stretching her blood vessels in a manner they were about to "pop like baloons"😉. Aside of that he demonstrated vast telikinetic abilities, is a master of Qey'Tek and can push his physical abilities to an extend that allows him to challenge much younger Jedi even in 2vs1 situations.

And please. If you want to limit it to real displays of power than Revan is limited to force choke and lightning (up to the "force storm" version). That aside from the fact that you've still not proven that any of the supposed uber Sith abilities Revan has knowledge about is useable in combat situations (since neither him nor Bane is actually using anything special in combat).

You know that there is a difference between a force user being attacked with the force and some being that doesn't have abilities like that? Right. Force users are capable of withstanding or countering force attacks. Yet Dooku trashes rather many people with his offensive force abilities (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress, Tholme, Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos - just to name some) without much difficulty.

Putting somebody on par with Revan means putting somebody on par with a relative unknown. Sure. He is the strongest of his era. Now what? Dooku is the number 3 of his own era when it came to force mastery - and that behind the strongest Sith Lord and the strongest Jedi Master up to that point in the history of the SW universe. I really wonder how something like that can be dismissed that easily.

Urm. Nope. Traya and Nihilus didn't "learn" the force drain. Kreia even says that it's a technique that "CAN NOT BE MASTERED". And Korriban was already almost completely plundered when Kun came there. I wonder how Revan could have found anything there - especially if you think about the fact that even the tombs of people like Ragnos or Horde (who weren't plundered before) didn't contain any knowledge.

With the exception of the quote from Dark Rendevouz that I have already posted? And please. You are also not able to tell me what Revan learned from Malachor or Korriban - yet you still keep saying "but Revan plundered Korriban and Malachor" like a broken record.

Oh yes. Dooku always had a fascination and held the belief that the Dark Side should also be studied in a controlled fashion - which was the reason why he never had a seat in the Jedi Council. But that, in turn, means that Dooku studied the Dark Side already before he met Sidious.

You mean except from the fact that the dude kept his body alive after having already died? Not to mention that his freaking holocron image was able to use the force against Darth Krayt to have him temporaly consumed by his own armor?

Because Malak did what exactly with the force?

He still had more time for learning than Revan had during the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War and in the 6 months passing between them (where he was searching for the Star Forge).