Originally posted by Sado22
but wasnt he being dropped by shots to the head now? i saw that scan in one of the threads...can't remember which one. he got sniped in the eye and just dropped like a 9 pin.
this has always been a bit of a hit or miss with Wolvie.. sometimes it puts him down, sometimes it doesn't... there's a 50/50 shot at best that it's gonna work on him and that if his healing factor isn't working at optimum levels.
Originally posted by Sado22I believe it was implied as such.
no one ever said it was actually. we're just bringing it up as proof that the same could happen again. also it counts as a "fight" since punisher challenged wolverine (along with DD and spidey) *shrug*
Originally posted by Sado22
we all know that again. no one here ever said that punisher can actually stop wolverine but he can definitely incapacitate him long enough to escape with a smile on his face. like he did every time he came across Wolverine. heck he could also road roll him here and walk away. and if he's done it while on the recieving end of an ambush at wolverine's part....he sure as hell can do it with one hour preperation.
Ummm one time frank was left for dead.
On another he recognized Logan as a tremendous threat and admitted he was lucky to get as far as he did with Wolverine.
And on another Wolverine made a fool out of him..
Every time? 🤨
Well, I'm pretty positive that Logan isn't going to wait to be steamrolled, and the circumstances that allowed that to happen last time don't really apply here do they?
No he can't.
Originally posted by Sado22
logan made the drop on him. and punisher could have incapacitated him if he wanted.....he jsut didn't know that wolverine was a mutant. and one with HF for that matter.
Even though he couldn't and didn't?
Even though he's admitted he couldn't later on?
pffft.
Originally posted by Sado22
which mall fight? 😕
Wolverine 186 I think.
Wolverine basically clobbers Frank.
Originally posted by Sado22But neither one of those are fights, both had huge circumstances that led up to Punisher even being able to pull them off, and both of those are written by Ennis who was writing with an absurd bias against his guests..
steam roller and rocket launcher are decisive for punisher. he had him incapacitated long enough to escape.
Now in a FIGHT.. using an accurate and intelligent rendition of Wolverine things won't be so cut and dry.
Originally posted by Sado22
btw, thank you for being reasonable in this debate. i'm surprised how emotional people around here tend to get over their fav characters. hats off.~Sado
lol, No probs, tempers always fly around here.. that's what happens when you have egos as big as the characters being represented. 😉
Originally posted by jinzin
reduced to what though.. Wolverine's HF was still upsurd back when he first got back his adamantium.
Why would it refer to that incident when he said it hasnt been this bad in years.
I say my bb skils havent been this bad in years and I refer to a time when im scoring 50 points per game? 😬
Originally posted by jinzin
His most ridiculous stunts have only been within the last half a decade or so.And yeah I think it does work that way a bit... but Punisher doesn't have a winning record against Wolverine..
Not really people may have amazing feats but when it comes down to a particular character it may work differently.
Darkseid has superhuman intelligence has amazing prep feats and got outsmarted by Batman who is less intelligent and has less impressive feats. I could give other examples.
Originally posted by jinzin
Rocket launcher- wasn't a fight.
Steam Roller- Plot device where Punisher admitted that nothing else he could do would be capible of actually stopping Wolverine.Jungle fight- 1 win for Logan, 1 "tie" ended before it even really got rolling.
Mall fight- decisive victory for Logan....
So even if you count the steam roller incident as a win for Punisher that's still a tie record.. 😬
Well no the rocket launcher is a win for Punisher, this thread gives Frank 1hrs prep and he cant get hold of a rocket launcher.
Well you decided to count the steamroller incident but then again it shows Franks resourcefullness where he can use the envinronment against him.
There also the fight where Frank his Logan in the nuts with the bat and was about to set him on fire.
Wolverine has 1 win Frank has three 3
.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Why would it refer to that incident when he said it hasnt been this bad in years.I say my bb skils havent been this bad in years and I refer to a time when im scoring 50 points per game? 😬
Any ways what Logan actually said was “my healing factor has not been what it has in years”
Years not decades or over a decade. So it no more then 9 years. And seeing as how it increases ever year it makes perfect senses.
Not to mention he used century when talking about his adrenalin, so if he ment a decade or more in terms of healing factor down grade it would have been stated as such.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not really people may have amazing feats but when it comes down to a particular character it may work differently.Darkseid has superhuman intelligence has amazing prep feats and got outsmarted by Batman who is less intelligent and has less impressive feats. I could give other examples.
This is a forum match his powers will being working at peak as in the rules.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well no the rocket launcher is a win for Punisher, this thread gives Frank 1hrs prep and he cant get hold of a rocket launcher.
Also how was it a win? How does shooting some one mean you beat them? He was still very much standing and very much conscious. Sorry, but according to the forum’s that’s not a win.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
incident but then again it shows Franks resourcefullness where he can use the envinronment against him.
By environment you mean a massive plot device.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
There also the fight where Frank his Logan in the nuts with the bat and was about to set him on fire.
Also I don’t recall the fight coming to a conclusion.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wolverine has 1 win Frank has three 3
You mean two wins. If not mistaken in the old war journal run Logan KO Punisher was a glancing blow.
As for Punishers three wins you would be incorrect.
First one you brought up. Never even a fight really just one attack which never KO nor even dropped Wolverine which means Wolverine never lost.
Then there your next example, which I find even more amusing that you leave out the fact that there was no fight. Punisher and Wolverine were working to gather, Punisher shot wolverine in the balls with a machine gun out of no ware. Then Punisher ran him over with a steamroller when they were supposed to be partners.
So that’s a non fight.
The last one you named. Well it never was finished, but let’s say we call it a win, then that be 1 win to 2 wins in Wolverines favor.
So out of the three wins you said Punisher had vs Wolverine only one was actually legit.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
.Your example is very confusing.
Any ways what Logan actually said was “my healing factor has not been what it has in years”
Years not decades or over a decade. So it no more then 9 years. And seeing as how it increases ever year it makes perfect senses.
Not to mention he used century when talking about his adrenalin, so if he ment a decade or more in terms of healing factor down grade it would have been stated as such.
Sorry, but ones powers does not simply not work because a certain character is present.
This is a forum match his powers will being working at peak as in the rules.
I still amusing that people find the issue to be good grounds for an argument. When it ignore Logan’s senses, DD senses and Spidermans spider senses. Even funnier was the fact they were unable to detect Punisher without any given reason, when he was only roughly 20 feet away from them.
Also how was it a win? How does shooting some one mean you beat them? He was still very much standing and very much conscious. Sorry, but according to the forum’s that’s not a win.
By environment you mean a massive plot device.
Which would not work in a forum match.
Also I don’t recall the fight coming to a conclusion.
You mean two wins. If not mistaken in the old war journal run Logan KO Punisher was a glancing blow.
As for Punishers three wins you would be incorrect.
First one you brought up. Never even a fight really just one attack which never KO nor even dropped Wolverine which means Wolverine never lost.
Then there your next example, which I find even more amusing that you leave out the fact that there was no fight. Punisher and Wolverine were working to gather, Punisher shot wolverine in the balls with a machine gun out of no ware. Then Punisher ran him over with a steamroller when they were supposed to be partners.
So that’s a non fight.The last one you named. Well it never was finished, but let’s say we call it a win, then that be 1 win to 2 wins in Wolverines favor.
So out of the three wins you said Punisher had vs Wolverine only one was actually legit.
Im not even going to respond to this some of the points have already been adressed. *shrug*
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not even going to respond to this some of the points have already been adressed. *shrug*
No they really havent and thats a cop out.
I don't even care the only real points that matter are this.
Wolverine has Ko Punsher via glanceing blow if I am not mistaken.
Wolverine has also stomped Punisher in wolverine 186.
Now you tried to call the Punisher issue in which wolverine and spider and Datedevil attempt to find Punisher and Punisher hits wolverine with a missle.
I ignore the amount of PIS that it took for him to achieve that, becauses frankly it don't matter, becuases Logan was not KO nor put down.
So there not win there for Punisher.
Then there the steam roller time in which Punisher shot his own teamate and ran him over. Thats a non fight, becuases they were not fighting, one person was simply betray by another.
Then we have the bat to the balls time. Now the fight never ended, but assuming Punisher gets the win for it.
That only gives Punisher one win not 3 like you pretend he gets.
Wolverine on the other hand has two wins against Punisher.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Why would it refer to that incident when he said it hasnt been this bad in years.I say my bb skils havent been this bad in years and I refer to a time when im scoring 50 points per game? 😬
In new avengers he got sho straight through the chest and was up and about a page later.. he doesn't seem to be hindered THAT much.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone🤨
Not really people may have amazing feats
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
but when it comes down to a particular character it may work differently.Darkseid has superhuman intelligence has amazing prep feats and got outsmarted by Batman who is less intelligent and has less impressive feats. I could give other examples.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well no the rocket launcher is a win for Punisher, this thread gives Frank 1hrs prep and he cant get hold of a rocket launcher.
Well you decided to count the steamroller incident but then again it shows Franks resourcefullness where he can use the envinronment against him.
There also the fight where Frank his Logan in the nuts with the bat and was about to set him on fire.
Wolverine has 1 win Frank has three 3
Does it also give Wolverine is more consistent intelligence, cunning, experience, stealth, and heightened senses?
Cause he was missin all of those in that Ennis encounter.
Point is, it wasn't a fight so it can't be counted.. 😐
At no point was Wolverine even aware he was being aimed at... it's no different than you trying to make something out of nothing with the winter soldier incident.
That "incident" doesn't mean a whole lot since he said that nothing he could do would put Logan down.. and honestly do I really need to get into how many people Logan's curbed while being set aflame?
Logan has 2 wins over Frank.
Frank has 1 win over Logan at best.
2 cheap-shot attacks
and 1 "stalemate" that got broken up before it even got started...
It's anything but a legit winning record.
Originally posted by jinzin
As opposed to when you were scoring 200 points per game.. the point is that we still need to see his limits..
Yes...but nobody scores 200 points per games the example I was giving was of a player whos maximum ios around 50 points so therefore when he referes to the bad part of his career it would be around 20 points per game.
Originally posted by jinzin
In new avengers he got sho straight through the chest and was up and about a page later.. he doesn't seem to be hindered THAT much.
Wait so he got dropped but he got up again a page later? Just from that example
Originally posted by jinzin
🤨Not sure what you're attempting to get at here.
Awww geeeezz man could you please try and read it again and see what I was getting at. 😬
Originally posted by jinzin
Does it also give Wolverine is more consistent intelligence, cunning, experience, stealth, and heightened senses?
Cause he was missin all of those in that Ennis encounter.
Hes not always shown as a genuis he can sometimes lose his temper and act impulsively. When he read the note where it said "sucker", I interpreted it as Wolverine saying "what the **** does he mean by that, that little **** im gonna kill him", so he was reading the note and brooding. Hell in Secret Defenders some guys called him a loser and he flipped the **** out, so its not like its beyond his personality.
Originally posted by jinzin
Point is, it wasn't a fight so it can't be counted.. 😐
Ok do you understand the connection between this incident and the fact that this thread stipulates he gets 1hrs prep.
Originally posted by jinzin
At no point was Wolverine even aware he was being aimed at... it's no different than you trying to make something out of nothing with the winter soldier incident.
Im pretty sure that when he got shot by Scalphunter he knew he was there but didnt know exactly where he was. That could apply to this situation.
Originally posted by jinzin
That "incident" doesn't mean a whole lot since he said that nothing he could do would put Logan down.. and honestly do I really need to get into how many people Logan's curbed while being set aflame?
You could say the same about class 100 punches as well and his showings vary *shrug* Anyway his HF is reduced so I dont think he will be getting up the next page from a missle launcher.
Originally posted by jinzin
Logan has 2 wins over Frank.
Frank has 1 win over Logan at best.
2 cheap-shot attacks
and 1 "stalemate" that got broken up before it even got started...It's anything but a legit winning record.
No hes got 3 wins and im stil counting the missle launcher. I dont care what you want to call it. Frank challenged them Wolverine got blown up im not sure what you call that but its a win.
"if he wanted"?
Even though he couldn't and didn't?
Even though he's admitted he couldn't later on?
pffft.
now there is the other incident when Logan jumped him and frank eventually subdued him wtih a baseball bat swing to the nuts. he was about to light him up and had already spilled gasoline on him. that counts as a win.
so we have:
-mall incident
-jungle incident where frank sniped him. was pwned in a h2h which we all know he would
-wolverine dropped him but frank got the upperhand (with his resourcefulness)...and then steam rolled him.
-and finally with preperation he pwned him with a rocket launcher and this one is probably the strongest point since it was a similar scenario that we are talking about here.
finally, let me say this as clearly as i can:
in a straight up fight Frank is going to get mauled and killed. we all know it here. the reason we are counting those incidents as "wins" for frank is because this thread is about punisher fighitng wolverine WITH prepertions.
~Sado
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes...but nobody scores 200 points per games the example I was giving was of a player whos maximum ios around 50 points so therefore when he referes to the bad part of his career it would be around 20 points per game.
you're missing the point; Wolverine'shealing factor is ridiculous when it's not being depleted by some outside factor... and unfortunately it is like 60% of his comic career. Hell this goes back to pre-adamantium extraction.
The 200 pts thing is to demonstrate how absurd his HF really is when it's been seen at it's full capacity, and since these characters are supposed to fight at that capacity...
You're downplaying what he can take..simple as that.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wait so he got dropped but he got up again a page later? Just from that example
🤨
He had a huge flamin hole where his heart used to be.. you don't think that's impressive..pffbwahaha!
Nah, I can't be bothered to actually.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hes not always shown as a genuis he can sometimes lose his temper and act impulsively. When he read the note where it said "sucker", I interpreted it as Wolverine saying "what the **** does he mean by that, that little **** im gonna kill him", so he was reading the note and brooding. Hell in Secret Defenders some guys called him a loser and he flipped the **** out, so its not like its beyond his personality.
I'm not even talking about the note per-se' I'm talking about the entire arc.... hell he isn't even intelligent enough to get on the right train to new york during that arc...
It's not an accurate portrayal of his character but it really doesn't matter since it wasn't a fight.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok do you understand the connection between this incident and the fact that this thread stipulates he gets 1hrs prep.
No I don't....
Punisher is hostile, and he has weapons that he prepped himself up for.. and that's where the similarities end.
Wolverine wasn't expecting to be attacked.
Wolverine was distracted by a dead body.
It wasn't in an enclosed environment (i.e. hightened senses).
And to be honest it really isn't even a win as Battlehammer stated he wasn't even KOed. 😐
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im pretty sure that when he got shot by Scalphunter he knew he was there but didnt know exactly where he was. That could apply to this situation..
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You could say the same about class 100 punches as well and his showings vary *shrug* Anyway his HF is reduced so I dont think he will be getting up the next page from a missle launcher.
Even though he did from a plasma blast through his chest? 🙄
And here's the thing, Logan's been set aflame and come out on top about... oh I don't know 100% more times than he's lost..
The same way he's been able to take class 100 shots far more often than not.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No hes got 3 wins and im stil counting the missle launcher. I dont care what you want to call it. Frank challenged them Wolverine got blown up im not sure what you call that but its a win.
Then you're still wrong, since Logan wasn't even KOed...
He has one win AT BEST
Logan has 2.
wolverine wasn't ko'd yes but he wasn't getting up anytime soon. and since he didn't answer the 10 count..... 😄
and wolverine one fight against frank not 2. if you're counting the fight in the jungle as a win, with all due respect, but i think that didn't really count. logan surprised him with the claws......and frank didn't even shoot him at any vital spot. he just shot him in the leg. next thing he knew logan's not only a healing mutant but also has one foot claws coming out of his hands. give the guy a break, lol.
the last time logan tried it on frank, frank smacked him in the balls with a bat and almost lit him up. and waht makes you think frank would've stopped just cuz logan can get up from flames. and then a while later he downed him again with an uzi to the balls and the steam roller. logan was held down long enough again. that counts as a win too.
and again, we've already said frank would lose in anything but a prepared fight. why are you going back at it all over again?
Originally posted by Sado22
well while he was about to shoot wolverine in the leg he said he could kill him but he needs to interogate him. i think that really means that Frank went easy on him. shooting person in the head>>shooting person in the leg.
Originally posted by Sado22
now there is the other incident when Logan jumped him and frank eventually subdued him wtih a baseball bat swing to the nuts. he was about to light him up and had already spilled gasoline on him. that counts as a win.
As both me and hammer said, it was inconclusive but since Punisher had the advantage we can count it as a win yes...
Though, again I think it's important to note that Punisher attributed his advantages in the fight to sheer luck.
Originally posted by Sado22
so we have:
-mall incident
-jungle incident where frank sniped him. was pwned in a h2h which we all know he would
-wolverine dropped him but frank got the upperhand (with his resourcefulness)
Actually there was the mall: Wolverine 1 Pun 0
Jungle h2h fight: Wolverine 2 Pun 0
Jungle fight after Pun sniped Wolverine Wolverine 2 Pun 0 inconclusive/tie 1
Wolverine jumping Frank (it wasn't resourcefulness it was luck and Punisher clearly admitted that twice) Wolverine 2 Pun 1 tie 1
Originally posted by Sado22
...and then steam rolled him.
Steam Roller was seperate from any fight... I don't know if you've actually read that comic but what happened was Wolverine and Pun had teamed up by that point. Punisher shot Wolvie in the nuts out of nowhere. Wolverine's legs then got sawed by evil midgets (no joke), and punisher rolled him before he was even able to get up. It's not representative of any sort of fight.
QUOTE=10253020]Originally posted by Sado22
-and finally with preperation he pwned him with a rocket launcher and this one is probably the strongest point since it was a similar scenario that we are talking about here.[/QUOTE]
As I said to Alf
"Punisher is hostile, and he has weapons that he prepped himself up for.. and that's where the similarities end.
Wolverine wasn't expecting to be attacked.
Wolverine was distracted by a dead body.
It wasn't in an enclosed environment (i.e. hightened senses)."
QUOTE=10253020]Originally posted by Sado22
finally, let me say this as clearly as i can:
in a straight up fight Frank is going to get mauled and killed. we all know it here. the reason we are counting those incidents as "wins" for frank is because this thread is about punisher fighitng wolverine WITH prepertions.
~Sado [/QUOTE] And I get that completely.. However unlike you, my interpretation of Wolverine is inclusive of his entire career not a bias ridden Ennis issue that doesn't grant a wide range of superheroes even their most basic of powersets.
Even with prep Punisher would be hard pressed to stop Logan and thus hard pressed to beat him...
I mean let's face it, Punisher said outright that Winter Soldier would kill him in fight.. Winter Soldier who had prep, and hired help to snipe Wolverine before the fight kicked off got absolutely curbstomped by Wolverine who had a completely depleted healing factor, who was snuck attacked from behind, and who beat Bucky literally with his arms behind his back.
A wolverine knowing he's in a hostile environment is going to be a huge mountain for Punisher to climb, even with prep.
Originally posted by Sado22
wolverine wasn't ko'd yes but he wasn't getting up anytime soon. and since he didn't answer the 10 count..... 😄
and wolverine one fight against frank not 2. if you're counting the fight in the jungle as a win, with all due respect, but i think that didn't really count. logan surprised him with the claws......and frank didn't even shoot him at any vital spot. he just shot him in the leg. next thing he knew logan's not only a healing mutant but also has one foot claws coming out of his hands. give the guy a break, lol.
Originally posted by Sado22
the last time logan tried it on frank, frank smacked him in the balls with a bat and almost lit him up. and waht makes you think frank would've stopped just cuz logan can get up from flames. and then a while later he downed him again with an uzi to the balls and the steam roller. logan was held down long enough again. that counts as a win too.
As for the fight.. again we count that as a win for Punisher.... but since you asked...
Because of the calibur of people Logan's put into the assfault while on fire.
Magma,
Typhoid Mary,
Mr. X
A personalized army of special forces.
And that's just off the top of my head.
What makes you think Punisher would have faired any better than these people? Esp. when he already admitted that Logan was handing him his ass?
Originally posted by Sado22I'm pretty sure everything I've said as been in direct response to what you've been spouting off. 😕
and again, we've already said frank would lose in anything but a prepared fight. why are you going back at it all over again?
Well let's not forget that that itself was a sneak attack-ish scenario. Wolverine was running after other targets and Frank basically shot him out of no-where... aside from that it didn't seem that he was going easy on logan blasting him with a custom m16 at pointblank. Not to mention the fact that at the time Punisher had no idea what Wolverine was capible of, he really had no actual grasp of what Logan could or couldn't actually take.
as for the other times:
-the mall. conceded.
-the 'steam roll incident'. yeah i read the issue and its one of my favorites. frank beat him in the fight as you admit yourself. luck or not.
-as for the steamroller, i was just mentioning that since it ws one of the funniest scenes from marvel. i don't call that a win either. nor do i call the shot in the balls a win.
-i DO however, call the rocket launcher bit a win.
so i guess we're stuck at 2/2 for now. i'll get my mits on that jungle issue so we can sort it out. do notice however, that frank did "win" when he was prepared.
~Sado
but wolverine wasn't that's the thing... When wolverine has been ready for a hostilities he's snuck into:
The baxter building
The white house
in and out of sheild hellicarriers.
the x-mansion
the brood empire
the x-mansion filled with Shiar guards.
the Harada household.
multiple Korean, Nazi, and spy organizations during wartime.
I just don't see the rocket launcher incident as a win. The variables were different in MAJOR ways compared to this scenario.
since wolverine can't be put down for too long by an ordinary human being then incapaciation does count as a win. evne here none of us are saying frank would "kill" wolverine. we know we can't be. win would be keep him down long enough to get out safely.
for the record frank has survived collapsed buildings on two occassions.
~Sado