Yoda versus Dumbledore (the Force versus Hogwarts magic)

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok the cannon thing yes I agree

What does that have to do with anything " only knowing once you get there that doesn't mean that he doesn't have the experience of what you are dealing with for instance he already faced dooku like you said one of the most powerful force users in the universe and he can casually handle him so he would know that's the true dark lord of the sith would be more powerful and would know not to underestimate him so that makes your point invalids since yoda would have the knowledge of what to expect, "only knowing once you get there" means nothing He has had previous experience with sith power so he would know what to expect and no that can't be used against me you said in your example you would train all and prepare you just conceded to the fact that you would not underestimate him as he is the reigning champ and sidious is the reigning dark lord so no matter how powerful you are you don't underestimate the sith so you have been beaten on that score

No you just don't understand go to google and type in skirmish in the senate and read the info yoda knee that he could not defeat sidious when it ca,e down to the force battle and he also knew that the jedi and the republic was lost so he mean both so both you and I are correct he did mean that the jedi lost but he also meant that he lost his personal bout with sidious since like the Jedi under his leadership he stayed the same only using the basics of his style while PALPATINE adapted and adjusted to his new era having more than a thousand years of experience from a line of sith with knowledge being passed down so you have been beaten

Oh my god I'm starting to take what you say less and less serious, yes mace is a strong opponent but be realistic yoda and sidious are hardely separable in lightsaber skills with yoda or sidious gaining the marginal edge with a victor winning 6-7/10 battles with the blade purely now mace is second only to yoda in terms of jedi and could be beaten by dooku who yoda soundly defeated so why in the world would you say that palpatine would run from mace especially when the plan wasn't in action or finished since he needed to convert anakin and that was his way of doing it and notice that the three "ACCLAIMED JEDI" you speak of were cut down in. Seconds and mace even admitted that even if he sunk 100% into vaapad it would result in a stalemate and mind that's palpatine not at 100% so mace is a tier below sidious and yoda so if sidious try's with all his might mace would die

I understand why people say it's a stalemate but I believe sidious won the force battle and Im debatable about the saber edge and I certainly wouldn't say yoda gets the decisive not at all

It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Knowing is knowing and that can only be achieved through experiencing it. I could imagine the HW champion of the world hits harder than anybody I've ever faced. I could fight him and realize A) he doesn't hit as hard as I thought or B) damn he still hits harder than I was expecting. That is what you're not understanding here. Casually dealing with one of the most powerful force user probably made Yoda feel confident he could deal with Sids power. Sure, he'd know it would be more powerful, but that doesn't mean he was expecting it to be THAT powerful.

Incorrect and Incorrect on many levels. You've posted a bunch of stuff peddled by Sids supports for years that I and others have thoroughly and completely crushed. I mean literally crushed. I'm not going to get into the whole discussion now but I'll summarize

1. Dooku vs. mace - I know way is dooku more powerful than Mace and it's certainly not a give. THE ONLY thing even remotely suggesting such a thing is the narration that says "the only person besides Yoda to best him in Saber combat was Dooku" Now, understand these key things and then you'll understand why this isn't true or the ol' who cares.

A) It's sparring.. sparring is VASTLY different than a real life and death struggle. They are virtually so far apart from one another it's not even worth discussing. So mace loosing to him in sparring is a big who cares.

B) The statement also doesn't preclude the fact that Mace could've gotten the better of Dooku more times than not. I could beat somebody 9/10 times, but that person could still say.. I was only one of a few people to beat me. Even though, I've won more. So that statement in no way shape or form says he got the better overall.

C) During sparring Mace wouldn't be using Vaapad during a casual sparring session. Not only would he not have the same energies to feed on (like he did with Sidious) because he's facing a lightsider. Second, we have no clue if he even developed vaapad at that point in time. The narration doesnt' even make that clear. So, the form Mace used to defeat Sids, would be as valuable in a sparring session with a friend

D) Dooku was older than Mace and had been training for many more years. AGAIN, since there was no time frame give. This could've been when Mace was still coming into his own while dooku was prime. We really have NO CLUE

So that's that

Now the Sids threw the fight has also been trounced before and conclusively so. I'll summarize but even more briefly

1. AT NO POINT in the movie or the book or the script is it EVER EVER mentioned that Sids was planning to or threw the fight. NOT ONCE. Not only is it not mentioned it's not even implied. That is something that Sids apologists (made up) to try and explain their boy losing. They have no leg to stand on when it comes to the facts to support such a theory

2. Lucas during his commentary of ROTS... SPECIFICALLY says that Sids came at Mace with all his fury. This is even noted in the book to further support that. Lucas then goes onto say that Mace OVERPOWERED SIDS. Not that Sids lost on purpose.. not that he threw the fight... HE OVERPOWERED HIM.

3. I could go further into how ridiculous a theory it is... I mean think about it.. all the strikes he threw and the FL he threw... what if Mace didn't block it? Then what? Then where is his plan. What did he then have Mace intentionally kick him to disarm him? how about when Sids go.. Die.. DIE!! Lucas has him say DIE as he firing lighting... lighting so powerful he can barely keep the saber from his face. Yet, that was all for show.. Please

Anyways, you should re think these theories because they aren't applicable and get crushed by the other side.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Knowing is knowing and that can only be achieved through experiencing it. I could imagine the HW champion of the world hits harder than anybody I've ever faced. I could fight him and realize A) he doesn't hit as hard as I thought or B) damn he still hits harder than I was expecting. That is what you're not understanding here. Casually dealing with one of the most powerful force user probably made Yoda feel confident he could deal with Sids power. Sure, he'd know it would be more powerful, but that doesn't mean he was expecting it to be THAT powerful.

Incorrect and Incorrect on many levels. You've posted a bunch of stuff peddled by Sids supports for years that I and others have thoroughly and completely crushed. I mean literally crushed. I'm not going to get into the whole discussion now but I'll summarize

1. Dooku vs. mace - I know way is dooku more powerful than Mace and it's certainly not a give. THE ONLY thing even remotely suggesting such a thing is the narration that says "the only person besides Yoda to best him in Saber combat was Dooku" Now, understand these key things and then you'll understand why this isn't true or the ol' who cares.

A) It's sparring.. sparring is VASTLY different than a real life and death struggle. They are virtually so far apart from one another it's not even worth discussing. So mace loosing to him in sparring is a big who cares.

B) The statement also doesn't preclude the fact that Mace could've gotten the better of Dooku more times than not. I could beat somebody 9/10 times, but that person could still say.. I was only one of a few people to beat me. Even though, I've won more. So that statement in no way shape or form says he got the better overall.

C) During sparring Mace wouldn't be using Vaapad during a casual sparring session. Not only would he not have the same energies to feed on (like he did with Sidious) because he's facing a lightsider. Second, we have no clue if he even developed vaapad at that point in time. The narration doesnt' even make that clear. So, the form Mace used to defeat Sids, would be as valuable in a sparring session with a friend

D) Dooku was older than Mace and had been training for many more years. AGAIN, since there was no time frame give. This could've been when Mace was still coming into his own while dooku was prime. We really have NO CLUE

So that's that

Now the Sids threw the fight has also been trounced before and conclusively so. I'll summarize but even more briefly

1. AT NO POINT in the movie or the book or the script is it EVER EVER mentioned that Sids was planning to or threw the fight. NOT ONCE. Not only is it not mentioned it's not even implied. That is something that Sids apologists (made up) to try and explain their boy losing. They have no leg to stand on when it comes to the facts to support such a theory

2. Lucas during his commentary of ROTS... SPECIFICALLY says that Sids came at Mace with all his fury. This is even noted in the book to further support that. Lucas then goes onto say that Mace OVERPOWERED SIDS. Not that Sids lost on purpose.. not that he threw the fight... HE OVERPOWERED HIM.

3. I could go further into how ridiculous a theory it is... I mean think about it.. all the strikes he threw and the FL he threw... what if Mace didn't block it? Then what? Then where is his plan. What did he then have Mace intentionally kick him to disarm him? how about when Sids go.. Die.. DIE!! Lucas has him say DIE as he firing lighting... lighting so powerful he can barely keep the saber from his face. Yet, that was all for show.. Please

Anyways, you should re think these theories because they aren't applicable and get crushed by the other side.

Yea he has stronger hits but that does not stop you from conditioning yourself to take punishment and knowing that this guy could hit hard yes there are things you won't experience until you get there but that doesn't stop you from preparing and underestimated mg someone he's the champ for a reason and he is the dark lord for a reason no matter what you know or don't know you go in the situation ready for anything that could happen meaning you go in there not underestimating anything it's just common sense
1. I dint say that anyone was far more powerful than the other except with sidious and windu and sidious is more powerful than windu since dooku is also below sidous who is slightly superior to windu
A. No sparring test your strenghts if they don't matter then why do they do them they do it to better there skills and im pretty sure after dooku beat mace in there sparring session windu bettered his skills but so to did dooku so sparring does matter no matter what you say
B. Well actually dooku is slightly superior to windu having more experience and greater variety in the force and more experience with lightsabers able to best several notable jedi masters and sith acolytes and the two are so. close sometimes it's hard to choose a winner
C u have to look at concept and reasoning if it's put in the book that other than yoda dooku was the only jedi to best windu in sparring scenario that means that even without vaapad even before he baca e the windu we all know and love he was still highly skilled so that means no other jedi who went up against him could so that means windu was still a highly sophisticated deulist
D agin I refer you to my C

So that's that

Well actually if I remember correctly in the book after the fight says palpatine threw the fight but I'm most likely wrong but anyway it is implied by logic
Ok it's factual that yoda is better than mace but sidious is on par with yoda so and also considering the circumstances in which the fight took place so how can you possibly say that windu is superior and also now I know this for a fact in the novel it windu admits that with himself solely in vaapad 100% ne still couldn't defeat palpatine it would be a stalemate and he had to wait for anakin to be there to make a shatter point so sidious is definitly better overall in sabers and the force than windu and this is taken from the novel and it's also again COMMON SENSE if you have watched someone for a long time and befriended them and then told them about dRth plaguis someone who could bring the dead back to life and sidious knows anakin is afraid for padme and he tells him that plaguis taught his apprentice everything he knew and then tells anakin that he's the apprentice palpatine would know that anakin would come back so of course palpatine would fake the fight so with all that fact and logic sidious is the better Deulist
B. Yet in the novel there bout would have been a stalemate so there is a diffrence between stalemate and overpower and I'm pretty sure when he said that to describe the moment in the movie with sidious putting on an image of being overpowered and windu attacking purely so pretty much to describe the moment and if you want to bring lucas into this then lucas has factually stated that yoda is greater than windu and plus windu had a huge amp don't forget that's and sidious went toe to toe with sabers with yoda with yoda not being able to penetrate his defense so by that logic lucas was describing the scene itself and what we see not what it meant behind it since if so he has contradicted himself
C. Yes these theories are well backed up,and our logical and if you look at wookipedia cannon and the novel and just think for yourself then you will understand and so you do admit that a normal mace windu would be destroyed by sidious then since most of the factors worked against sidious yet sidious still stood up to him and actually possibly " defeated" him in a way
You actually need to work on your points since I keep finding holes in yours and trust me these are applicable to people who have opened minds unlike you who are just straight forward and not versatile I mean it logical you just refuse to belkeve it

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Yea he has stronger hits but that does not stop you from conditioning yourself to take punishment and knowing that this guy could hit hard yes there are things you won't experience until you get there but that doesn't stop you from preparing and underestimated mg someone he's the champ for a reason and he is the dark lord for a reason no matter what you know or don't know you go in the situation ready for anything that could happen meaning you go in there not underestimating anything it's just common sense
1. I dint say that anyone was far more powerful than the other except with sidious and windu and sidious is more powerful than windu since dooku is also below sidous who is slightly superior to windu
A. No sparring test your strenghts if they don't matter then why do they do them they do it to better there skills and im pretty sure after dooku beat mace in there sparring session windu bettered his skills but so to did dooku so sparring does matter no matter what you say
B. Well actually dooku is slightly superior to windu having more experience and greater variety in the force and more experience with lightsabers able to best several notable jedi masters and sith acolytes and the two are so. close sometimes it's hard to choose a winner
C u have to look at concept and reasoning if it's put in the book that other than yoda dooku was the only jedi to best windu in sparring scenario that means that even without vaapad even before he baca e the windu we all know and love he was still highly skilled so that means no other jedi who went up against him could so that means windu was still a highly sophisticated deulist
D agin I refer you to my C

There is so much wrong with this though that I don't even know where to begin.

1. Dooku is not more powerful than Mace and there is nothing to support such a claim. In fact, if we use powerscaling.. then Mace is clearly Dooku's superior thanks to Vaapad. If they fought.. Vaapad would carry the day against dooku likely 10/10. Somehow you are under this theory that Dooku is better and that is wrong. The BEST you could say is peers.. but no way is dooku better.

a) Just look at the respective fights... Yoda casually dealt with Dooku and didn't look the least bit bothered. Somebody you AGREE in beyond Dooku (Sids) was OVERPOWERED by Mace. That right there based on feats shows mace > than Dooku

2. No sparring could never and should never be ever confused with a real fight. How you're even arguing this point is beyond me. Let me ask you this... Do you think if you boxed a good friend... you'd fight him just as hard as boxing somebody you detest or even don't know? Of course not. Sparring a friend could never be conflated to a life and death situation. You know in sparring if you make a mistake you won't die. In a life and death situation you know any mistake you make can lead to death. That makes you sense even more keen and you're fighting for your life. Now compare that to sparring with a buddy of yours... not even close to the same and to even see you arguing this point even now is comical. Nobody said sparring does nothing.. that is a red herring. Sparring can make you better.. but that should never be confused with a real fight or what would happen in a real fight correct?

3. THERE IS NO DATE GIVEN ON WHEN THEY SPARRED. Most likely it was before Mace even invented Vaapad. Even if it's not, he still wouldn't be able to use Vaapad against a lightsider. That TOTALLY invalidates the sparring. It pretty much means next to nothing. To say nothing of the fact that we know Mace become more powerful AFTER said sparring. So again, who cares about sparring. We match them up prime for prime and Mace would win most every time thanks to his form.

4. AGAIN, that narration doesn't say he beat him more. Just that he beat him in sparring. You do concede that it could still mean Mace won more correct?

You're very much missing something here that needs to be addressed.... STYLES make fights. You see this in every combat sprot imaginable. I'll give examples... Just because Whitaker could wipe the floor with an ATG in Chavez.. doesn't mean he can beat a lesser fighter like Oscar (who's not on the same level all time as chavez) Hoya is bigger and presents different issues for Whitaker than a Chavez would. THAT is what we have here.

1. windu is considerable bigger than Yoda and has more natural weight and leverage than him. He also has vaapad which increases his speed and potency and is CONSTANTLY supplying him with energy and stamina. Yoda doesn't have these characteristics. See where I'm going with this now? Styles make fights. Mace was better equipped to deal with Sids than Yoda is. it's really that simple. Doesn't mean he's better than Yoda or would beat yoda (yoda would win after a tough fight). But against a Darksider... and Mace fully emerged in Vaapad .. yes he can do better than Yoda does.. and he DID do better.

2. Totally and completely wrong.. there is NOT ONE NARRATION that even suggest Sids threw that fight. Nothing in the book.. nothing in the script.. nothing in the movie. Literally NOTHING. The book goes into GREAT detail that the movie didn't. It elaborated on very specific things going on in people's heads that wasn't said in the movie. Yet, you expect me to believe that a huge major plot point like this was never mentioned.. EVER. Doesn't that seem odd to you? That defies logic and reason to even say such a thing.

3. Lucas flat out says.. he OVERPOWERED HIM. Literally. The book mentions he went at him with ALL HIS FURY. Why would the book say he went at him with all his fury if he was really NOT and trying to lose? That AGAIN defies all logic and common sense. Lucas flat out says he beat him and the emperor tried to kill him. Look at the commentary to refresh. It's all right there.

4. Again, if Sids was trying to lose.. why say.. no you'll DIE.. DIE.. as he fires powerful lighting at Mace. So powerful that Mace could barely keep his own lightsaber away from his own face. He was even breathing the fumes of it cause it was so close. Clearly very powerful lighting and he says DIE. Yet, you expect me to believe he said die, but was really just playing around? Please, I refuse to believe you actually think that makes logical sense.

5. You didn't answer... so what if Sids with all the strikes he through and tired a force push (which was countered BTW) .. What happens if Sids actually landed one of those blows? What then, what happens to this big grandiose plan then? See what I'm saying here? It just makes no sense.

6. Further, he was disarmed in direct saber combat and overpowered as Lucas noted. The ONLY thing he faked which Lucas comments on.. is feigning weakness. He wasn't totally depleted of energy and a weak old feeble man like he pretended to be. THAT is all he faked. By that point though.. he had already been disarmed.. beaten.. face messed up and beaten. Sure, he had more fight but he was on the losing end of that fight. Plain and simple. No making up theories to explain Sids losing changes that. You have no leg to stand on when it comes to ACTUAL proof. It's all on my side.

6. Lastly about that fight and to show you the difference between sparring and life and death situation. Mace submerged in Vaapad along with the Emperor were fighting SO FAST that to Anakin they were nothing more than a blur and a mist. THAT is how fast they were fighting.. Even a badass like Anakin with super perception couldn't see them. That SAME Anakin BEAT Dooku and could see all his movements. THAT is the level Mace was fighting at and shows the level or two he can go beyond Dooku thanks to Vaapad and when it matters. Now think about your sparring argument and I hope you can see how silly it is.

FYI it said my post and yours were too many characters so I cut out some of your quote. But I answered everything you said.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There is so much wrong with this though that I don't even know where to begin.

1. Dooku is not more powerful than Mace and there is nothing to support such a claim. In fact, if we use powerscaling.. then Mace is clearly Dooku's superior thanks to Vaapad. If they fought.. Vaapad would carry the day against dooku likely 10/10. Somehow you are under this theory that Dooku is better and that is wrong. The BEST you could say is peers.. but no way is dooku better.

a) Just look at the respective fights... Yoda casually dealt with Dooku and didn't look the least bit bothered. Somebody you AGREE in beyond Dooku (Sids) was OVERPOWERED by Mace. That right there based on feats shows mace > than Dooku

2. No sparring could never and should never be ever confused with a real fight. How you're even arguing this point is beyond me. Let me ask you this... Do you think if you boxed a good friend... you'd fight him just as hard as boxing somebody you detest or even don't know? Of course not. Sparring a friend could never be conflated to a life and death situation. You know in sparring if you make a mistake you won't die. In a life and death situation you know any mistake you make can lead to death. That makes you sense even more keen and you're fighting for your life. Now compare that to sparring with a buddy of yours... not even close to the same and to even see you arguing this point even now is comical. Nobody said sparring does nothing.. that is a red herring. Sparring can make you better.. but that should never be confused with a real fight or what would happen in a real fight correct?

3. THERE IS NO DATE GIVEN ON WHEN THEY SPARRED. Most likely it was before Mace even invented Vaapad. Even if it's not, he still wouldn't be able to use Vaapad against a lightsider. That TOTALLY invalidates the sparring. It pretty much means next to nothing. To say nothing of the fact that we know Mace become more powerful AFTER said sparring. So again, who cares about sparring. We match them up prime for prime and Mace would win most every time thanks to his form.

4. AGAIN, that narration doesn't say he beat him more. Just that he beat him in sparring. You do concede that it could still mean Mace won more correct?

You're very much missing something here that needs to be addressed.... STYLES make fights. You see this in every combat sprot imaginable. I'll give examples... Just because Whitaker could wipe the floor with an ATG in Chavez.. doesn't mean he can beat a lesser fighter like Oscar (who's not on the same level all time as chavez) Hoya is bigger and presents different issues for Whitaker than a Chavez would. THAT is what we have here.

1. windu is considerable bigger than Yoda and has more natural weight and leverage than him. He also has vaapad which increases his speed and potency and is CONSTANTLY supplying him with energy and stamina. Yoda doesn't have these characteristics. See where I'm going with this now? Styles make fights. Mace was better equipped to deal with Sids than Yoda is. it's really that simple. Doesn't mean he's better than Yoda or would beat yoda (yoda would win after a tough fight). But against a Darksider... and Mace fully emerged in Vaapad .. yes he can do better than Yoda does.. and he DID do better.

2. Totally and completely wrong.. there is NOT ONE NARRATION that even suggest Sids threw that fight. Nothing in the book.. nothing in the script.. nothing in the movie. Literally NOTHING. The book goes into GREAT detail that the movie didn't. It elaborated on very specific things going on in people's heads that wasn't said in the movie. Yet, you expect me to believe that a huge major plot point like this was never mentioned.. EVER. Doesn't that seem odd to you? That defies logic and reason to even say such a thing.

3. Lucas flat out says.. he OVERPOWERED HIM. Literally. The book mentions he went at him with ALL HIS FURY. Why would the book say he went at him with all his fury if he was really NOT and trying to lose? That AGAIN defies all logic and common sense. Lucas flat out says he beat him and the emperor tried to kill him. Look at the commentary to refresh. It's all right there.

4. Again, if Sids was trying to lose.. why say.. no you'll DIE.. DIE.. as he fires powerful lighting at Mace. So powerful that Mace could barely keep his own lightsaber away from his own face. He was even breathing the fumes of it cause it was so close. Clearly very powerful lighting and he says DIE. Yet, you expect me to believe he said die, but was really just playing around? Please, I refuse to believe you actually think that makes logical sense.

5. You didn't answer... so what if Sids with all the strikes he through and tired a force push (which was countered BTW) .. What happens if Sids actually landed one of those blows? What then, what happens to this big grandiose plan then? See what I'm saying here? It just makes no sense.

6. Further, he was disarmed in direct saber combat and overpowered as Lucas noted. The ONLY thing he faked which Lucas comments on.. is feigning weakness. He wasn't totally depleted of energy and a weak old feeble man like he pretended to be. THAT is all he faked. By that point though.. he had already been disarmed.. beaten.. face messed up and beaten. Sure, he had more fight but he was on the losing end of that fight. Plain and simple. No making up theories to explain Sids losing changes that. You have no leg to stand on when it comes to ACTUAL proof. It's all on my side.

6. Lastly about that fight and to show you the difference between sparring and life and death situation. Mace submerged in Vaapad along with the Emperor were fighting SO FAST that to Anakin they were nothing more than a blur and a mist. THAT is how fast they were fighting.. Even a badass like Anakin with super perception couldn't see them. That SAME Anakin BEAT Dooku and could see all his movements. THAT is the level Mace was fighting at and shows the level or two he can go beyond Dooku thanks to Vaapad and when it matters. Now think about your sparring argument and I hope you can see how silly it is.

FYI it said my post and yours were too many characters so I cut out some of your quote. But I answered everything you said.

1. Vaaapad takes the anger and aggression from the opponent and turns it in to maces energy yes this is true but let's look at dooku he is calm cool and collected and doesn't rage off so windu wouldn't really get that much of an amp so I give the victory to dooku but with 7/10 since one of his precise stabs would catch mace with his large wide spread sweeps

2. To save space I direct you to the search engine and for you to search Sidious vs windu what really happened and will explain some of our questions it will be the one on comic vine

3. Ok yes. It the book states that even with both going all out even at all mace admits this it would be a stalemate and ongoing battle since neither could overpower the kther and this speak volumes of sidious skills as a deulist that he can naturally without amps match maces insanely huge speed strenght and power amp and was able to match him blow for blow and even force him back and get a force push in

4. Say you are in palpatines situation and you follow the rules of the rule of two and you are in the midst of a heated moment between you anikan and windu you want to show anakin either what power can be his and also show that I'm not just a lightsaber deulist and I have some tricks up my sleeve and also it shows that I have power so don't think otherwise also afterward we see a disfigured face so it's more and more luring anakin in

5. Well I won't say it was countered since it hit windu and windu would have died if windu didn't use one of his own so it wasn't countered and you proved my point what IF IF being the keyword he could have liked he had plenty other times to use the force but didn't... Why... all part of the GRAND PLAN he had to get sympathy from anakin its all makes perfect sense I believe you just have a closed mind
6 im not saying that there isn't a difference because yes the circumstances are different but you can't say sparring matches don't matter in that case why do they do them just to waste time, it like a boxer he spares so he can progress and get better it's like practicing, actually when anakin got his anger against dooku it's actually stated that when he did that dookus entire vision was a blur of blue also it is said that anakinsanakins strikes were as fast and as strong as crashing meteorites so in the deul with dooku there actually was an exciting increase in speed that blurred vision, also just know that vaapad and maces extra anger combined made him go fast so that shows that a normal windu is not as fast as a normal sidious and also im not arguing that sparring matches are the same im just saying that they matter and can be realistic for instance without sparring between mace and sora bulq mace would not be as good in vaapad understand

And as a side note do you believe that windu is better than yoda now this is a yes or no question I don't need or want an explanation just a yes or no

And no Windu I don't believe ever won one any matches between the two except one where he had the aid of obi wan kenobi

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1. Vaaapad takes the anger and aggression from the opponent and turns it in to maces energy yes this is true but let's look at dooku he is calm cool and collected and doesn't rage off so windu wouldn't really get that much of an amp so I give the victory to dooku but with 7/10 since one of his precise stabs would catch mace with his large wide spread sweeps

2. To save space I direct you to the search engine and for you to search Sidious vs windu what really happened and will explain some of our questions it will be the one on comic vine

3. Ok yes. It the book states that even with both going all out even at all mace admits this it would be a stalemate and ongoing battle since neither could overpower the kther and this speak volumes of sidious skills as a deulist that he can naturally without amps match maces insanely huge speed strenght and power amp and was able to match him blow for blow and even force him back and get a force push in

4. Say you are in palpatines situation and you follow the rules of the rule of two and you are in the midst of a heated moment between you anikan and windu you want to show anakin either what power can be his and also show that I'm not just a lightsaber deulist and I have some tricks up my sleeve and also it shows that I have power so don't think otherwise also afterward we see a disfigured face so it's more and more luring anakin in

5. Well I won't say it was countered since it hit windu and windu would have died if windu didn't use one of his own so it wasn't countered and you proved my point what IF IF being the keyword he could have liked he had plenty other times to use the force but didn't... Why... all part of the GRAND PLAN he had to get sympathy from anakin its all makes perfect sense I believe you just have a closed mind
6 im not saying that there isn't a difference because yes the circumstances are different but you can't say sparring matches don't matter in that case why do they do them just to waste time, it like a boxer he spares so he can progress and get better it's like practicing, actually when anakin got his anger against dooku it's actually stated that when he did that dookus entire vision was a blur of blue also it is said that anakinsanakins strikes were as fast and as strong as crashing meteorites so in the deul with dooku there actually was an exciting increase in speed that blurred vision, also just know that vaapad and maces extra anger combined made him go fast so that shows that a normal windu is not as fast as a normal sidious and also im not arguing that sparring matches are the same im just saying that they matter and can be realistic for instance without sparring between mace and sora bulq mace would not be as good in vaapad understand

And as a side note do you believe that windu is better than yoda now this is a yes or no question I don't need or want an explanation just a yes or no

All of what you say has NO Proof... there is simply no way for you and other sids apologists to get around that. I don't to read anything, I've read plenty on the matter and there is no credence to give it. It's really that simple.

You have no answer for how is it that Mace and Sids could move so fast that they were only appeared as a mist to Anakin. Yet, you claim Dooku is better than Mace.. far from it... as Anakin had no issue seeing his strikes.

There is nothing to discuss in terms of sparring anymore. It's totally irrelevant narration that has no significance. It's really nothing more than a throw away line. It comes down to this Sids... DID NOT throw the fight and Dooku isn't not better than Windu. The vast majority of evidence says otherwise.

I think Yoda is more powerful than Mace.. but Mace matches up better with Sids in a saber battle.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All of what you say has NO Proof... there is simply no way for you and other sids apologists to get around that. I don't to read anything, I've read plenty on the matter and there is no credence to give it. It's really that simple.

You have no answer for how is it that Mace and Sids could move so fast that they were only appeared as a mist to Anakin. Yet, you claim Dooku is better than Mace.. far from it... as Anakin had no issue seeing his strikes.

There is nothing to discuss in terms of sparring anymore. It's totally irrelevant narration that has no significance. It's really nothing more than a throw away line. It comes down to this Sids... DID NOT throw the fight and Dooku isn't not better than Windu. The vast majority of evidence says otherwise.

I think Yoda is more powerful than Mace.. but Mace matches up better with Sids in a saber battle.

I actually do have an answer and everything I say does have proof yes the battles are cannon in the movies but you can't just disclose the novels since they are also cannon and both do give leads and proficient evidence to point that sidious did throw the fight and good reasons to you are just a sidious hater and I actually don't think the commentary you refer to is applied to the two i General just what the scene looked like like when windu was just swinging his blade at sidious I believe that's whoa lucas was referring to not that sidious was really overpowered and also the novelization also stated that sidious hesitated since he sensed anakin or because he was trying to revert some of the force augmentation to a force grip so he wouldn't fall off the ledge

Ok you apparently ignore the fact that Windu to even get that level of speed he had to go 100% into vaapad and plus he was more angry so he could draw on more of his anger and fighting the dark lord of the Sith aka The Blackhole as he is referred and thus had so much more speed yet with palpatines on power he was able to match him so so PALPATINE is superior and its stated ive told you time and time again that windu even stated that even sinking solely into vaapad he could only stalemate sidious so Windu is not better than sidious in sabers anyone who says that is a complete idiot

Dooku is slightly superior you can't possibly consider windus fight with sidious possibly comparable with dooku as windu received a much larger amp that he would not receive against DOOKU and the tw are comparable you just ignore that for some reason when lucas novels and people say it DOOKU is able to stalemate and possibly beat windu since windu would not get a huge amp from dooku since he doesnt really give off a lot of anger he is calm cool and collected and yet dooku was able to take anakins strikes head on and the only reason he lost was because of finess not pure skill get your facts straight

Did you at least read the website I led you to then you would understand why windu would not get that amp ever again and why dooku could beat windu and I beleive dooku is slightly superior but their bout could go either way and the sparring session I believe that it's possible that if dooku wanted to he could have held the spot that windu originally held as master of the order so if I'm sparring with someone to test my skillsespeciallu someone of yoda and dookus level im going to go all out so beating windu even at that age is a feat worth mentioning you just neglect that and dooku actually can move fast and if he can match windu then what would the difference be a comparison between them is to controversial since it evidence that can lead to both wins and vaapad wouldn't help windu as much in a fight with him and dooku

Only feats from the movies or canon TV shows are allowed, so nothing you posted from the novels counts.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Only feats from the movies or canon TV shows are allowed, so nothing you posted from the novels counts.

How can you say that books don't matter all cannon counts since feats are also in the book it's like saying that force storm for sidious doesn't count sick we haven't seen it in theaters or DVD yet

Because per board rules only movie/TV feats count. if you don't like it, take it up with the moderator(IMP).

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I actually do have an answer and everything I say does have proof yes the battles are cannon in the movies but you can't just disclose the novels since they are also cannon and both do give leads and proficient evidence to point that sidious did throw the fight and good reasons to you are just a sidious hater and I actually don't think the commentary you refer to is applied to the two i General just what the scene looked like like when windu was just swinging his blade at sidious I believe that's whoa lucas was referring to not that sidious was really overpowered and also the novelization also stated that sidious hesitated since he sensed anakin or because he was trying to revert some of the force augmentation to a force grip so he wouldn't fall off the ledge

Ok you apparently ignore the fact that Windu to even get that level of speed he had to go 100% into vaapad and plus he was more angry so he could draw on more of his anger and fighting the dark lord of the Sith aka The Blackhole as he is referred and thus had so much more speed yet with palpatines on power he was able to match him so so PALPATINE is superior and its stated ive told you time and time again that windu even stated that even sinking solely into vaapad he could only stalemate sidious so Windu is not better than sidious in sabers anyone who says that is a complete idiot

Dooku is slightly superior you can't possibly consider windus fight with sidious possibly comparable with dooku as windu received a much larger amp that he would not receive against DOOKU and the tw are comparable you just ignore that for some reason when lucas novels and people say it DOOKU is able to stalemate and possibly beat windu since windu would not get a huge amp from dooku since he doesnt really give off a lot of anger he is calm cool and collected and yet dooku was able to take anakins strikes head on and the only reason he lost was because of finess not pure skill get your facts straight

Did you at least read the website I led you to then you would understand why windu would not get that amp ever again and why dooku could beat windu and I beleive dooku is slightly superior but their bout could go either way and the sparring session I believe that it's possible that if dooku wanted to he could have held the spot that windu originally held as master of the order so if I'm sparring with someone to test my skillsespeciallu someone of yoda and dookus level im going to go all out so beating windu even at that age is a feat worth mentioning you just neglect that and dooku actually can move fast and if he can match windu then what would the difference be a comparison between them is to controversial since it evidence that can lead to both wins and vaapad wouldn't help windu as much in a fight with him and dooku

Tell you what...

POST ANY NARRATION FROM THE BOOK SAYING SIDS THREW THE FIGHT. ANY NARRATION. I'm sick of your bs and I'm going to call you bluff. I don't want wild theories or extrapolating things from general non descript lines or actions. I WANT PROOF. Unless you proved it, I'll accept your concession. You see I have all the proof.

1. George Lucas says Sids tries to kill Windu his lighting. Now ANSWER.. why would Lucas say he's trying to kill windu, when by your theory Sids had no intention of killing him?

2. Why would the book say.. Sids came at Windu with all his fury? If what you say is true, and Sids was throwing the fight... How would he go at him with all his fury?

3. Why would Lucas say he OVERPOWERED Sids, showing a scene where Windu disarms Sids? You honestly can't be this silly and obtuse. He's literally talking about a scene we're all watching, watching what you ask? Watching Windu disarm sids. Why would Lucas comment like that, when in fact, Windu didn't disarm him.. palps let himself be disarmed. Windu didn't overpower him... Sids threw the fight?

See where I'm going with this? That's why I saw you literally have ZERO proof on your side. Literally NONE.

You keep going on and on about how Mace got an amp.. WHO CARES... That is within his power and form to do so. That IS why he invented the form. Not just to feed on his opponents anger and rage but feed off his own internal anger and enjoy the fight. It's not some outside source that gave him that power. He didn't just stumble upon a magic rock that gave him that power. IT'S HIS DAMN LIGHT SABER FORM. That is apart of him. You can whine amp all you want and it makes no difference. That's his form and he moved so fast Anakin couldn't even perceive the fight. Yet he has NO issue seeing dooku and seeing his movements. In fact, he saw them so well he KILLED him lol. Yet he's better LOL.

Why the **** is this still going?

Even Obi-Wan could take Dumbledore, Yoda still speedblitzes or telekinetically skull****s him, good to see nobody's countered that

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Why the **** is this still going?

Even Obi-Wan could take Dumbledore, Yoda still speedblitzes or telekinetically skull****s him, good to see nobody's countered that

Well none of you have countered what is Yoda going to do when Dumbledore makes vines come out the ground and mess him up or when he unleasheses fire everywhere and is overwhelming yoda or even using one of his hundred of thousands of curses and hexes to destroy incapacitate or even distract yoda I love how no one has countered that

I don't recall you ever explaining how Dumbledore is going to do any of that after Yoda tk's his wand.

Except Dumbledore's nowhere near fast enough to do anything before Yoda blitzes his ass (HP wizards aren't even bullet timers, whereas Jedi have feats well above that)

As for fire, Jedi can be in near contact vicinity with molten metal, they have some pretty hefty durability

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Tell you what...

POST ANY NARRATION FROM THE BOOK SAYING SIDS THREW THE FIGHT. ANY NARRATION. I'm sick of your bs and I'm going to call you bluff. I don't want wild theories or extrapolating things from general non descript lines or actions. I WANT PROOF. Unless you proved it, I'll accept your concession. You see I have all the proof.

1. George Lucas says Sids tries to kill Windu his lighting. Now ANSWER.. why would Lucas say he's trying to kill windu, when by your theory Sids had no intention of killing him?

2. Why would the book say.. Sids came at Windu with all his fury? If what you say is true, and Sids was throwing the fight... How would he go at him with all his fury?

3. Why would Lucas say he OVERPOWERED Sids, showing a scene where Windu disarms Sids? You honestly can't be this silly and obtuse. He's literally talking about a scene we're all watching, watching what you ask? Watching Windu disarm sids. Why would Lucas comment like that, when in fact, Windu didn't disarm him.. palps let himself be disarmed. Windu didn't overpower him... Sids threw the fight?

See where I'm going with this? That's why I saw you literally have ZERO proof on your side. Literally NONE.

You keep going on and on about how Mace got an amp.. WHO CARES... That is within his power and form to do so. That IS why he invented the form. Not just to feed on his opponents anger and rage but feed off his own internal anger and enjoy the fight. It's not some outside source that gave him that power. He didn't just stumble upon a magic rock that gave him that power. IT'S HIS DAMN LIGHT SABER FORM. That is apart of him. You can whine amp all you want and it makes no difference. That's his form and he moved so fast Anakin couldn't even perceive the fight. Yet he has NO issue seeing dooku and seeing his movements. In fact, he saw them so well he KILLED him lol. Yet he's better LOL.

Now see here you go again
1. I said sidious was trying to convert anakin and actually when sidious is shooting lightning at windu with the intention of frying his face as to bring sympathy from anakin because in the film he says I have the power to save the one you love ou must choose and also he says the jedi are taking over all of these are when he is in a weak form when he is at his greatest sympathetic form and lucas himself states in the first seen where dooku is about to be decapitated he states that this is a test to see if he is capable or being truly the right person to be his apprentice so this would lead to the fact that sidious would throw the fight as the last step to convert anakin thank you so much for forcing me to watch the commentary good job

2 where in the book does it say that he came at him with all his fury, and since we are on the topic why would you say that windu beat sidious when the book says that even with his new found strenght windu could only stalemate him and then only manged to disarm sidious when sidious hesitated to adjust himself so in what way is that being overpowered and a true saber to saber defeat answer that
3. Good you concede that sidious did throw the fight and was only a pose to get anakin to join the dark side and as for the overpowered part as I said he was addressing the scene as a whole as we observed we see sidious get kicked as he knows anakin is just outside the door and will see me in this state and join me this is proven by since windu could sense anakin a mile away stated in the novel it wouldn't be far fetched that sidious would se se him just right outside the hall so he had to looked defeated so he would join him if he looked defeated then anakin would save him as to learn his secrets to save padme again the commentary has backfired my so called theories are slowly becoming facts

4. Yes I see you went downhill and now I accept your concession and one last thing do you have a brain or a heart or any sense of your own, is George Lucas like the brain that governs your every thought and every motion, let me ask you if George Lucas said that aayla secura would demolish dooku dooku by herself on a one on one would you believe him, if he said that the padawan who took out those clone troopers could crush anakin in a force duel would you believe him

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Except Dumbledore's nowhere near fast enough to do anything before Yoda blitzes his ass (HP wizards aren't even bullet timers, whereas Jedi have feats well above that)

As for fire, Jedi can be in near contact vicinity with molten metal, they have some pretty hefty durability

It's not yodas typical amo to just speed blitz he would probably do it if he had his Lightsaber but he doesn't so I don't see him speed blitzing so dumbledore wins due t his variety and magnitude of spells

Originally posted by Silent Master
I don't recall you ever explaining how Dumbledore is going to do any of that after Yoda tk's his wand.

And I don't recall you explaining how yoda is going to get past the vines

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It's not yodas typical amo to just speed blitz he would probably do it if he had his Lightsaber but he doesn't so I don't see him speed blitzing so dumbledore wins due t his variety and magnitude of spells

It's also not Dumbledore's usual MO to fire off the unforgivable curses either, yet that hasn't stopped you from claiming he'll do so. so again, how is he going to cast all those spells when Yoda tk's his wand and speed blitzes him?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
And I don't recall you explaining how yoda is going to get past the vines

What vines?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It's not yodas typical amo to just speed blitz

Well hey by your own logic Dumbledore doesn't open up with the AK or whatever obscure ass spells appear throughout the series off the bat (or even use most of them for that matter)

he would probably do it if he had his Lightsaber but he doesn't so I don't see him speed blitzing so dumbledore wins due t his variety and magnitude of spells

Or just uses his massively superior speed to force crush Dumbledore to a pulp before he can think

Derp