Yoda versus Dumbledore (the Force versus Hogwarts magic)

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Well you just put that as a response to every damn point

Yes because it took care of all your responses and saved me a lot of time.

'fraid you're not really one to be saying this

Immobulus my friend. Immobulus.

Too bad Dumbledore won't be able to use it before he gets blitzed, which you continue to ignore

Ok with the starting 500 meter distance which has been established. Dumbledore via movies can use this spell from the length of the DADA classroom. He doesn't need to say the spell as seen through his fights, he doesn't say any words except for one time. So with all that he could just launch out his wand and the spell happens and it's not a shoot spell as seen in the movies. So yoda is running with his amazing speed but dumbledore has his wand ready to do that spell, and it doesn't take time, what does yoda have.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
How you want me to format makes this longer than it needs to be, but here we go again.

1. Because you say it is, I don't think so. Also it's highly logical that dumbledore can amp up the power of necessary. The defenition of arguable means able to be argued. Get your facts and defenitions together. So following you My logic> your assertions
N
2. Firestorm.

3. I mean you have no proof you only have assertions that you refer to as logic.

4. It's like you can't read. It has been proven that dumbledore didn't want to kill voldemrot as it was Harry's destiny to kill voldemort.

5. Yet in the last movie it's explicitly stated that Harry Potter is the one who kills voldemort and also remember a little thing called HORCRUXES. So voldemrot couldn't have died anyway.

6. He has a durability feat that can allow him to not be snoozing. Also once you get pushed you haven't said what's to stop him from apparatimg.

7. Don't forget the 500 meters. Which will take more than 18 seconds to cover.

8. Immobulus ends battle definitely no debate.

9. How dumb are you again? I'm using Sidious because that the only force push against an actual person that yoda has via movies. So that why I used it. I said my bad because I thought I referenced dumbledore as being able to use force lightning or something.

10. Seriously your format makes it so different from others. Prefer old format. All I can say is thank you. I know we are on opposing sides but you are possibly only one who has shown me any remote form of kindness in your post for that I am grateful.

1) No, because there is proof that the fire has no heat and no proof of Dumby being able to increase the heat of said fire. Proof > no proof. This shouldn't even be discussed.

2) Firestorm never started off as a psuedo fire. Needed a wand, needed time and needed gestures. It is not a wandless, gestureless fire. What is so difficult to understand about this?

3) What part of "fire has no heat" was simple assertion? And what part of "Dumby can increase heat of gestureless, wandless fire" had proof? Cuz I think you got things wayyyy backwards here.

4) Irrelevant, you asserted that Dumby wasn't using lethal force when the spells he used had lethal implications. So a gestureless wandless unlimited-ranged auto-hit fire would have been the best thing he could have used at that time.

5) see above.

6) Stumbling on his butt is NOT a durability "feat" on par of what the greatest master of the Sith can do. WTF are you trying to pull here? It's barely a durability "feat" on par with a 2 year old.... facepalm and none of the lightning Voldy was throwing around struck him, so I don't know where you're coming from with this crap.

7) Qui gon, a student of Yoda's student and Obi wan (Qi gon's student) uses force speed to cover around 100-200 feet in a second. Force speed ftw.

http://youtu.be/ypoTgdCTPFM

8) Immobulus is a worse strat than firestorm. And if we follow character personalities as per rules, he wouldn't even use firestorm on Yoda as he doesn't kill unless he have to (stated on screen). Something he wouldn't do in-character is something he wouldn't do right away in-forum. Kinda like Superman wouldn't go around snapping ppl's neck at the start.

9) Sidious is a bad example as he has "feats" of durability that shits on OTHER jedi (like staying conscious even after having his own force lightning, shrugging off direct hits from Opress, who has one shot healthy Jedis, etc.) much less an old man like Dumby.

10) I am serious when I say this. You'll know that it's not about not admitting that you're wrong but in following the right path of logic and your credibility behind it that will make your stay here fun. What you don't want are the serious debaters just up and ignoring you and the other dismissing you as a troll and doing the same unless they feel like trolling you back. If that is not the kind of debatingg you came for in KMC, I suggest you at least open up your mind to other truths tham what you want to assert.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok with the starting 500 meter distance which has been established. Dumbledore via movies can use this spell from the length of the DADA classroom. He doesn't need to say the spell as seen through his fights, he doesn't say any words except for one time. So with all that he could just launch out his wand and the spell happens and it's not a shoot spell as seen in the movies. So yoda is running with his amazing speed but dumbledore has his wand ready to do that spell, and it doesn't take time, what does yoda have.

Force speed -> Force Push. KO.

DADA classroom does not outrange force push. Barely 40 feet deep. Maybe 50 tops.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) No, because there is proof that the fire has no heat and no proof of Dumby being able to increase the heat of said fire. Proof > no proof. This shouldn't even be discussed.

2) Firestorm never started off as a psuedo fire. Needed a wand, needed time and needed gestures. It is not a wandless, gestureless fire. What is so difficult to understand about this?

3) What part of "fire has no heat" was simple assertion? And what part of "Dumby can increase heat of gestureless, wandless fire" had proof? Cuz I think you got things wayyyy backwards here.

4) Irrelevant, you asserted that Dumby wasn't using lethal force when the spells he used had lethal implications. So a gestureless wandless unlimited-ranged auto-hit fire would have been the best thing he could have used at that time.

5) see above.

6) Stumbling on his butt is NOT a durability "feat" on par of what the greatest master of the Sith can do. WTF are you trying to pull here? It's barely a durability "feat" on par with a 2 year old.... facepalm and none of the lightning Voldy was throwing around struck him, so I don't know where you're coming from with this crap.

7) Qui gon, a student of Yoda's student and Obi wan (Qi gon's student) uses force speed to cover around 100-200 feet in a second. Force speed ftw.

http://youtu.be/ypoTgdCTPFM

8) Immobulus is a worse strat than firestorm. And if we follow character personalities as per rules, he wouldn't even use firestorm on Yoda as he doesn't kill unless he have to (stated on screen). Something he wouldn't do in-character is something he wouldn't do right away in-forum. Kinda like Superman wouldn't go around snapping ppl's neck at the start.

9) Sidious is a bad example as he has "feats" of durability that shits on OTHER jedi (like staying conscious even after having his own force lightning, shrugging off direct hits from Opress, who has one shot healthy Jedis, etc.) much less an old man like Dumby.

10) I am serious when I say this. You'll know that it's not about not admitting that you're wrong but in following the right path of logic and your credibility behind it that will make your stay here fun. What you don't want are the serious debaters just up and ignoring you and the other dismissing you as a troll and doing the same unless they feel like trolling you back. If that is not the kind of debatingg you came for in KMC, I suggest you at least open up your mind to other truths tham what you want to assert.

1. Yes it is true that the fore didn't burn anything thus I can understand why you would think that the fire was pseudo fire, and not true fire. However, yes firestorm did take a wand and gestures and time to use, but this shows that he can make real fire so thus would be able to make a real fire just wish his mind, if he can do it with a wand on that scale, anything lower than that can be accomplished.

2. I never said that firestorm didn't require wand. This is getting really annoying. It didn't burn anything. Why is it hard for you to understand that dumbledore can increase his heat if necessary. That fire in the memory. There is no solid based proof that it can't be amped if necessary. You actually believe that there is no way for him to amp up the fire if he needed to? Firestorm proves he can use real fire. Anything less than that he can use. According to you he has used pseudo fire or whatever you call it. That means he can use anything between those two feats and a ping up fire without the need of a wand is most definitely in between.

3. Look for answer in point 2.

4. ok. You must need to re watch that battle because firestorm takes time to make I'm not sharing it takes forever but it still takes time for him to make and then we don't even know the point at which he got his wand back so that 18 seconds could actually be cut since there is no evidence that I have seen to prove when he got his wand because inferi could have gotten him anyway since they were so close. Also again saving voldemrot for Harry is relevant as that makes up his plan. Re watch the movies.

5. What do you call what Sidious didn't he stumble on his butt at least in part of the push. Now as it stands the greatest lord of the sith didn't have a force wall up, so this proves that yoda said force pushes are not as strong as previously believed as you try to make it out to where just on impact dumbledores down for the count. Also not the mini avad kedavra I mean the dark wave voldemort sends out and destroys the glass with. He was able to withstand that with no assistance.

6. Actually qui gon was directly trained by Dooku who slows his roll down. Also an ability only used once in the films and never to be seen again. For instance if they use that on a regular basis why didn't keno I use it again during qui gins deul with Darth maul, then he could have possibly saved him. Or why didn't trebor use it against Dooku on Genosis or why didn't anakin use it against Dooku on Genosis. You see what I mean. Even if that were the case by using your numbers 500 meters = 1,640. 419 feet. With the max number in hand 200 it would take yoda including the distance of the classroom which you said was 50 ft tops it would take yoda form 500 meters away 8.5 seconds to reach dumbledore. Even using that speed he would still give dumbledore enough time to get in a stance which he would already be in, then it took a 2nd year hermione who still used words 2.53 seconds to use that spell on every pixie in the room. Now imagine someone who is already in a wand ready stance who doesn't need to say the word to use it so with all that in order and my calculation and test I've performed there is a .85 second difference and in this competitor can mean a lot. Also do you want dumbledore in the pose he was in order of the Phoenix or the one in most of his pictures where his wand is already pointed forward. If it's pointed forward the spell would take according to stealth ranger less than 34 milliseconds to think. He says the normal human thought process would take around 33-34 milliseconds. Dumbledore would take less time as he is a wizard and as proven much smarter than and more experienced than the average human. Now him with his wand pointing down but in hand would take 1.66 seconds. Which means that dumbledore can use this ability within the time constraint of 8.5 seconds.

7. Well if we are following character rules than um, in all the fights we have seen yoda in at the start yoda just stands there. Also can't focus on two things at once and also if dumbledore managed to throw a few heavy rocks or use reducto to get rocks above him yoda will struggle to remove those rocks. Immobulus doesn't kill, it just freezes yoda where he stands. So per personality dumbledore can use this spell as it won't hurt yoda.

8. Again this is Sidious with no force wall. Yoda pushed him and palpatine was just fine. This with that proves yodas force push is not as strong as you think it is. Also dumbledore being blasted back by pure dark energy blasted from a ferocious dark lord then discourse and knocked him over and broke all the glass in the room. Whether or not it's comparable it's still a feat none the less. So it could stack up against yoda since he hasn't displayed a force push able to KO someone.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1. Yes it is true that the fore didn't burn anything thus I can understand why you would think that the fire was pseudo fire, and not true fire. However, yes firestorm did take a wand and gestures and time to use, but this shows that he can make real fire so thus would be able to make a real fire just wish his mind, if he can do it with a wand on that scale, anything lower than that can be accomplished.

2. I never said that firestorm didn't require wand. This is getting really annoying. It didn't burn anything. Why is it hard for you to understand that dumbledore can increase his heat if necessary. That fire in the memory. There is no solid based proof that it can't be amped if necessary. You actually believe that there is no way for him to amp up the fire if he needed to? Firestorm proves he can use real fire. Anything less than that he can use. According to you he has used pseudo fire or whatever you call it. That means he can use anything between those two feats and a ping up fire without the need of a wand is most definitely in between.

3. Look for answer in point 2.

4. ok. You must need to re watch that battle because firestorm takes time to make I'm not sharing it takes forever but it still takes time for him to make and then we don't even know the point at which he got his wand back so that 18 seconds could actually be cut since there is no evidence that I have seen to prove when he got his wand because inferi could have gotten him anyway since they were so close. Also again saving voldemrot for Harry is relevant as that makes up his plan. Re watch the movies.

5. What do you call what Sidious didn't he stumble on his butt at least in part of the push. Now as it stands the greatest lord of the sith didn't have a force wall up, so this proves that yoda said force pushes are not as strong as previously believed as you try to make it out to where just on impact dumbledores down for the count. Also not the mini avad kedavra I mean the dark wave voldemort sends out and destroys the glass with. He was able to withstand that with no assistance.

6. Actually qui gon was directly trained by Dooku who slows his roll down. Also an ability only used once in the films and never to be seen again. For instance if they use that on a regular basis why didn't keno I use it again during qui gins deul with Darth maul, then he could have possibly saved him. Or why didn't trebor use it against Dooku on Genosis or why didn't anakin use it against Dooku on Genosis. You see what I mean. Even if that were the case by using your numbers 500 meters = 1,640. 419 feet. With the max number in hand 200 it would take yoda including the distance of the classroom which you said was 50 ft tops it would take yoda form 500 meters away 8.5 seconds to reach dumbledore. Even using that speed he would still give dumbledore enough time to get in a stance which he would already be in, then it took a 2nd year hermione who still used words 2.53 seconds to use that spell on every pixie in the room. Now imagine someone who is already in a wand ready stance who doesn't need to say the word to use it so with all that in order and my calculation and test I've performed there is a .85 second difference and in this competitor can mean a lot. Also do you want dumbledore in the pose he was in order of the Phoenix or the one in most of his pictures where his wand is already pointed forward. If it's pointed forward the spell would take according to stealth ranger less than 34 milliseconds to think. He says the normal human thought process would take around 33-34 milliseconds. Dumbledore would take less time as he is a wizard and as proven much smarter than and more experienced than the average human. Now him with his wand pointing down but in hand would take 1.66 seconds. Which means that dumbledore can use this ability within the time constraint of 8.5 seconds.

7. Well if we are following character rules than um, in all the fights we have seen yoda in at the start yoda just stands there. Also can't focus on two things at once and also if dumbledore managed to throw a few heavy rocks or use reducto to get rocks above him yoda will struggle to remove those rocks. Immobulus doesn't kill, it just freezes yoda where he stands. So per personality dumbledore can use this spell as it won't hurt yoda.

8. Again this is Sidious with no force wall. Yoda pushed him and palpatine was just fine. This with that proves yodas force push is not as strong as you think it is. Also dumbledore being blasted back by pure dark energy blasted from a ferocious dark lord then discourse and knocked him over and broke all the glass in the room. Whether or not it's comparable it's still a feat none the less. So it could stack up against yoda since he hasn't displayed a force push able to KO someone.

First off, thank you for at leadt doing this format to prevent my eyes from bleeding. Appreciate it.

1. No. For someone to be able to perform something, you need to prove that something even exists in said verse. An auto-hit gesturless fire that was cast beyond 10 feet never happened, thus your entire assertion is pure speculation. You HAVE to admit that you're just speculating here....

2. Burden of proof. It is not up to me to prove something can't be done, it is for you to prove something can. As one is not required to prove a negative. Basic rule of logic. While all things are plausible in magic, to debate it as fact requires you to present evidence that makes it so. Mere speculation does not prove anything.

3. See above.

4. Backing up from your own estimate? Nuh-uh. You need to back up your own words else ppl will stop believing you. Again, you fail to see the logic behind my assertion. I merely presented where it made perfect sense for him to use this gestureless, wandless, long range autohit fire you keep saying he can do. But he was unable to, even tho in this very scene, he used attacks equivalent in lethality to it but were less succesful. Heck he even threw the fire of the snake back at Voldy. He literally used a fire attack at Voldy. Soo no, he was not holding back becaue he "wanted to save Voldy". Basically, there was a perfect time where he could have used the very attack you day he can do but was unable to do it.

5. Sidious was forcibly shoved 20 feet back. There is an entire galaxy of difference between that and Dumby stumbling on his butt. Trying to compare Dumby's durability to Sidious is insulting to everyone's intelligence.

6. "An ability used once in the movie". What exactly would you call the giang firestorm Dumby used? Let's not use double standards here. Also, it is not a good idea to use force speed vs Maul in the Kenobi fight as it would have resulted in him falling into the giant pit (someone already made a funny video of it). It is beside the poont, however, as I have proven force speed exists. Just becuase they didn't use it often doesn't counter the fact that such an option exists. Except the flaws of your "Immobulus" tactic is threefold: (1) Yoda has precog. Yoda has better range than a DODA classroom. He will expect Immobulus and he could just stay out of range and use a force push (2) And, even if we assume that it has equal range to Yoda, it is still a quickdraw on who can do what first to the other once Yoda enters range. And my money is on the hyperfast Jedi Master with precog. (3) And, even if Dumby manages to hit Yoda with it, it would require that Yoda float around there like an idiot and not retaliate with a KO-ing force push and wait for Dumby to cast another spell. Too many improbables to make it a viable tactic.

7. "Full capacity" rule in the CVS forums mean that they fight to the best of their ability (meaning Yoda isn't gonna stand there and allow himself to be nailed) for as long as they are not attacks that run counter to their character (meaning a person who is hesitant to use lethal force will not use it unless he has no other choice). I'm pretty sure MVS forums follow the same rule.

8. Force wall or no, Sidious has shrugged off attacks that would fold old man Dumby like a napkin. The fact that Opress couldn't even hurt Palpatine with a sneak kick to the chest strong enough to fling him about 20 feet (while Palpatine was busy with Maul), the same Opress that was one shotting clone troopers, battle droids and apprentice jedis before his Sith training. And yet Yoda's force push made him squeel in pain like a pig.

Also: (1) Dumby was shielded when this aoe attack happened. Although it did shatter his shield. (2) Potter, who was unshielded, wasn't even affected by it. (3) all it did was cause Dumby to fall on his butt. And he barely got up from that in time to defend himself. (4) Comparing his durability to Sidious is an insult to everyone's intelligence. Including your own. I mean, seriously. (5) Downplaying his force push when there has been a ton of much weaker jedis/sith able to KO none-force users with their force push is a sign of desperation.

Is the guy that has been arguing OOC Dumbledore this entire time still trying to say that Yoda isn't allowed to do the same?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
First off, thank you for at leadt doing this format to prevent my eyes from bleeding. Appreciate it.

1. No. For someone to be able to perform something, you need to prove that something even exists in said verse. An auto-hit gesturless fire that was cast beyond 10 feet never happened, thus your entire assertion is pure speculation. You HAVE to admit that you're just speculating here....

2. Burden of proof. It is not up to me to prove something [b]can't be done, it is for you to prove something can. As one is not required to prove a negative. Basic rule of logic. While all things are plausible in magic, to debate it as fact requires you to present evidence that makes it so. Mere speculation does not prove anything.

3. See above.

4. Backing up from your own estimate? Nuh-uh. You need to back up your own words else ppl will stop believing you. Again, you fail to see the logic behind my assertion. I merely presented where it made perfect sense for him to use this gestureless, wandless, long range autohit fire you keep saying he can do. But he was unable to, even tho in this very scene, he used attacks equivalent in lethality to it but were less succesful. Heck he even threw the fire of the snake back at Voldy. He literally used a fire attack at Voldy. Soo no, he was not holding back becaue he "wanted to save Voldy". Basically, there was a perfect time where he could have used the very attack you day he can do but was unable to do it.

5. Sidious was forcibly shoved 20 feet back. There is an entire galaxy of difference between that and Dumby stumbling on his butt. Trying to compare Dumby's durability to Sidious is insulting to everyone's intelligence.

6. "An ability used once in the movie". What exactly would you call the giang firestorm Dumby used? Let's not use double standards here. Also, it is not a good idea to use force speed vs Maul in the Kenobi fight as it would have resulted in him falling into the giant pit (someone already made a funny video of it). It is beside the poont, however, as I have proven force speed exists. Just becuase they didn't use it often doesn't counter the fact that such an option exists. Except the flaws of your "Immobulus" tactic is threefold: (1) Yoda has precog. Yoda has better range than a DODA classroom. He will expect Immobulus and he could just stay out of range and use a force push (2) And, even if we assume that it has equal range to Yoda, it is still a quickdraw on who can do what first to the other once Yoda enters range. And my money is on the hyperfast Jedi Master with precog. (3) And, even if Dumby manages to hit Yoda with it, it would require that Yoda float around there like an idiot and not retaliate with a KO-ing force push and wait for Dumby to cast another spell. Too many improbables to make it a viable tactic.

7. "Full capacity" rule in the CVS forums mean that they fight to the best of their ability (meaning Yoda isn't gonna stand there and allow himself to be nailed) for as long as they are not attacks that run counter to their character (meaning a person who is hesitant to use lethal force will not use it unless he has no other choice). I'm pretty sure MVS forums follow the same rule.

8. Force wall or no, Sidious has shrugged off attacks that would fold old man Dumby like a napkin. The fact that Opress couldn't even hurt Palpatine with a sneak kick to the chest strong enough to fling him about 20 feet (while Palpatine was busy with Maul), the same Opress that was one shotting clone troopers, battle droids and apprentice jedis before his Sith training. And yet Yoda's force push made him squeel in pain like a pig.

Also: (1) Dumby was shielded when this aoe attack happened. Although it did shatter his shield. (2) Potter, who was unshielded, wasn't even affected by it. (3) all it did was cause Dumby to fall on his butt. And he barely got up from that in time to defend himself. (4) Comparing his durability to Sidious is an insult to everyone's intelligence. Including your own. I mean, seriously. (5) Downplaying his force push when there has been a ton of much weaker jedis/sith able to KO none-force users with their force push is a sign of desperation. [/B]

For the firestorm I do admit as it was only used once in the movie yes I can understand that as well as with the timing as it would most likely take more than 8.5 seconds to create. Even with that all timing matches up taking him 8.5 seconds to reach dumbledore, with the logic that you have approved dumbledore can use the spell up to 50 ft. Right since that was what was use in the movie. Not saying he would know when yoda enters the 50ft range. But he would definitely be able to use it before he is attacked. Dumbledore did not have his shield up as the protege charm deflects spells back to the opponent. Voldemort was shooting and absorbing it back into an energy ball. 2) Harry was already on the ground firmly planted on the ground. Barely, what movie did you see, he got up with enough time to make the shield. 4) not directly comparing his durability to Sidious just those two instances exclusively to give dumbledore a durability feat to go by since you think that one hit and that's it's. 5) well it's a sign of going by the movies. And if you think about it his weaker powers are understandable. Yes he displays the ability to use his telekenisis in an effective and powerful manner, but based on movies which is his prime since he would be battle hardened from the clone wars, shows his true power and it's not as strong as it used to be since he is the old monk figure who try's to find enlightnment nt focus on his combative skills. So not saying his powerful aren't powerful, just not as powerful as you imagine them to be, for instance you used droids as an example, you call me desperate, droids are droids, they are machine, if I knock my computer over it could break or get KO'd, toydarians so tiny and have no weight what's so ever. Now I believe if yoda gets a successful hit in on dumbledore than dumbledore is going to go flying but I don't think it's going to take him out. But anyway 50ft range dumbledore freezes him.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Is the guy that has been arguing OOC Dumbledore this entire time still trying to say that Yoda isn't allowed to do the same?

How is dumbledore out of character? Explain how.

Dumbledore got taken out by a coward

Originally posted by Robtard
Dumbledore got taken out by a coward

It was planned if you cared to watch the last movie and in the movie Harry regards him as the bravest man he had ever known which he was as he lied straight to voldemorts face, and the entire crowd of death eater, than killed dumbledore and came back to hogwarts with all the teachers. So snape is far from a coward.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1) For the firestorm I do admit as it was only used once in the movie yes I can understand that as well as with the timing as it would most likely take more than 8.5 seconds to create. Even with that all timing matches up taking him 8.5 seconds to reach dumbledore, with the logic that you have approved dumbledore can use the spell up to 50 ft. Right since that was what was use in the movie.Not saying he would know when yoda enters the 50ft range. But he would definitely be able to use it before he is attacked.

2) Dumbledore did not have his shield up as the protege charm deflects spells back to the opponent. Voldemort was shooting and absorbing it back into an energy ball.

3) Harry was already on the ground firmly planted on the ground. Barely, what movie did you see, he got up with enough time to make the shield.

4) not directly comparing his durability to Sidious just those two instances exclusively to give dumbledore a durability feat to go by since you think that one hit and that's it's.

5) well it's a sign of going by the movies. And if you think about it his weaker powers are understandable. Yes he displays the ability to use his telekenisis in an effective and powerful manner, but based on movies which is his prime since he would be battle hardened from the clone wars, shows his true power and it's not as strong as it used to be since he is the old monk figure who try's to find enlightnment nt focus on his combative skills. So not saying his powerful aren't powerful, just not as powerful as you imagine them to be, for instance

6) you used droids as an example, you call me desperate, droids are droids, they are machine, if I knock my computer over it could break or get KO'd, toydarians so tiny and have no weight what's so ever. Now I believe if yoda gets a successful hit in on dumbledore than dumbledore is going to go flying but I don't think it's going to take him out.

7) But anyway 50ft range dumbledore freezes him.

1) Well, at least you're no longer insisting on the gestureless, max range, wandless autohit fire. Shows improvement. 👆

I disagree that Dumby would hit Yoda before he is force pushed. Precog + muchmuchmuch better reflexes. Not even comparable chances here.

2) Protego IS a shield charm. I think you're mistaking "deflect" with "reflect" as protego has deflected to the side or dispersed spells harmlessly as well as back to the caster. It is reasonable to assume that Dumby's protego deflected most of the spell shockwave but still got overwhelmed.

Not a big wiki guy but this wiki cited sources, here is a description of the fight between Dumby and Voldy (see film version not book version, tho):

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Duel_in_the_Ministry_Atrium

Here is a description of protego:

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Charm

It took Dumby 17 seconds from falling on his butt to getting his shield up. 17 seconds is 16 too long from Yoda to slam him with another force push for the sure win. And a force push would do far far far more damage than just falling on his butt. It might even kill his old self. Shatter bones at the least. A KO is being generous IMO.

3) Voldy was vulnerable the whole time he was gathering the glass shards, Dumby was unable to cast any spells thru that time. Barely meaning it was all he could do.

4) The two are not comparable. One is an old man with no durability "feats" beyond what a normal old man can do. The other is a Sith Lord who has fallen dozens of feet with no ill effects, gotten struck by someone who has one shotted clone troopers, jedi and battle droids without even showin any pain and remained conscious while he had his own lethal force lightning sent right back at him. There is no comparison. You might as well claim Dumby has Captain America level durability.

5) Yoda's race lives up to 900 years the 20 years between the clone wars and Empire Strikes Back are meaningless as he was already very old since the start of the clone wars. And one of his better force "feats" happened in Empire (lifting the Xwing) where he was close to death. Age is not a factor here. Nice try, tho.

6) I also used king's bodyguards and storm trooper as an example. So this line of reasoning is flawed.

7) Yoda has a much better chance of force pushing Dumby for the KO due to far far superior reflexes + precog.

And even if Dumby gets really really lucky (like less than 1% chance of it happening) and freezes Yoda before Yoda force pushes him, Yoda can still use the force even if immoblized as it only takes concentration to use it, such as when Luke used it to lift C3PO while all tied up:

http://youtu.be/_EVSm4YdZN8

In closing, Dumby loses.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It was planned if you cared to watch the last movie and in the movie Harry regards him as the bravest man he had ever known which he was as he lied straight to voldemorts face, and the entire crowd of death eater, than killed dumbledore and came back to hogwarts with all the teachers. So snape is far from a coward.

No, he's a coward as shown when he cowered before Voldermort and he does the face of the great Hans Gruber an injustice by wearing it. Just like you to champion a coward, you sicken me.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, he's a coward as shown when he cowered before Voldermort and he does the face of the great Hans Gruber an injustice by wearing it. Just like you to champion a coward, you sicken me.

You understand everything you say makes no sense. With that any credibility you have with me is none sense you make no sense of have zero proof to back it up. You bring in injustice when we are talking about snape. So this shows me you are an idiot. You sicken me and insult everyone's intelligence with your mere pressence. Dumbledore says you must be the one to kill me. Then he lied to voldemort face. Voldemort is someone 99% of the Harry Potter universe fear, and snape had the guts to lie and be around him and his most loyal followers on a constant basis you idiot. So get out of here with your disgraceful self.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Well, at least you're no longer insisting on the gestureless, max range, wandless autohit fire. Shows improvement. 👆

I disagree that Dumby would hit Yoda before he is force pushed. Precog + muchmuchmuch better reflexes. Not even comparable chances here.

2) Protego IS a shield charm. I think you're mistaking "deflect" with "reflect" as protego has deflected to the side or dispersed spells harmlessly as well as back to the caster. It is reasonable to assume that Dumby's protego deflected most of the spell shockwave but still got overwhelmed.

Not a big wiki guy but this wiki cited sources, here is a description of the fight between Dumby and Voldy (see film version not book version, tho):

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Duel_in_the_Ministry_Atrium

Here is a description of protego:

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Charm

It took Dumby 17 seconds from falling on his butt to getting his shield up. 17 seconds is 16 too long from Yoda to slam him with another force push for the sure win. And a force push would do far far far more damage than just falling on his butt. It might even kill his old self. Shatter bones at the least. A KO is being generous IMO.

3) Voldy was vulnerable the whole time he was gathering the glass shards, Dumby was unable to cast any spells thru that time. Barely meaning it was all he could do.

4) The two are not comparable. One is an old man with no durability "feats" beyond what a normal old man can do. The other is a Sith Lord who has fallen dozens of feet with no ill effects, gotten struck by someone who has one shotted clone troopers, jedi and battle droids without even showin any pain and remained conscious while he had his own lethal force lightning sent right back at him. There is no comparison. You might as well claim Dumby has Captain America level durability.

5) Yoda's race lives up to 900 years the 20 years between the clone wars and Empire Strikes Back are meaningless as he was already very old since the start of the clone wars. And one of his better force "feats" happened in Empire (lifting the Xwing) where he was close to death. Age is not a factor here. Nice try, tho.

6) I also used king's bodyguards and storm trooper as an example. So this line of reasoning is flawed.

7) Yoda has a much better chance of force pushing Dumby for the KO due to far far superior reflexes + precog.

And even if Dumby gets really really lucky (like less than 1% chance of it happening) and freezes Yoda before Yoda force pushes him, Yoda can still use the force even if immoblized as it only takes concentration to use it, such as when Luke used it to lift C3PO while all tied up:

http://youtu.be/_EVSm4YdZN8

In closing, Dumby loses.

1. Argument of belief. The timing we used with the 200ft is a hypothetical as the ability to move that fast was only seen once in the entire series, and it could have been used again. Firestorm however can be used by dumbledore but as has been agreed on would take to much time for dumbledore to conjure up. 2. Even with the 200ft per second it would take yoda 8.5 seconds to get to dumbledore, even if he couldn't use use Immobulus before he was hit, he could definitly make a strong enough protege charm that could block or deflect yodas push back at him then use Immobulus. With versatility comes many avenues of attack.

2. Yes protege is a shield charm. All of its official showings show it as something that sends the spell or energy back to the caster. The wiki says that spell used to block voldemrot dark energy could possibly be protego which means it's not confirmed but whatever.

3. Actually the camera zooms back on to voldemort meaning that while they were on the ground they were trying to cover there heads since glass was falling and when the camera goes back to dumbledore it looked like he had been ready for a long time.

4. Not trying to say they are the same I'm just trying to give dumbledore a durability feat to go by.

5. You mean lifting an x wing where he needs to take his time to do. Yea very impressive. The years he spent only mediating and not progressing his skills as an offensive force weilder is one of the reasons why his powers are not as powerful as they should be. So no he can't constantly shoot out force push after force push since all his attention is focused on mediation and enlightnment not combative powers. So lifting an swing where he needs to take his time and close his eyes and concentrate that hard is not such an impressive feat. Also palpatine someone who hadn't used the force in years wa able to hurl senate pods and shoot lightning at yoda with ease so years do matter as he hadn't been using his force powers for centuries before the clone wars.

6. Body guards weight next to nothing and storm troopers can be taken out by paper machetes rocks and can't aim worth a s***.

7. How do you figure those two situations intertwine. In one scenario yoda is completely frozen with no way to move unless he's in the air like the pixies than he floats but can't move his limbs vs a second scenario where Luke can still move his hands, I know he didn't but just saying he can, and had an object to move and wasent frozen. How do those two situations seem like they are the same. If yodas frozen vs like who still has control of his limbs. How do those things even sound the same?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1. Argument of belief.

1b. The timing we used with the 200ft is a hypothetical as the ability to move that fast was only seen once in the entire series, and it could have been used again. Firestorm however can be used by dumbledore but as has been agreed on would take to much time for dumbledore to conjure up. 2.

1c. Even with the 200ft per second it would take yoda 8.5 seconds to get to dumbledore, even if he couldn't use use Immobulus before he was hit, he could definitly make a strong enough protege charm that could block or deflect yodas push back at him then use Immobulus. With versatility comes many avenues of attack.

2. Yes protege is a shield charm. All of its official showings show it as something that sends the spell or energy back to the caster. The wiki says that spell used to block voldemrot dark energy could possibly be protego which means it's not confirmed but whatever.

3. Actually the camera zooms back on to voldemort meaning that while they were on the ground they were trying to cover there heads since glass was falling and when the camera goes back to dumbledore it looked like he had been ready for a long time.

4. Not trying to say they are the same I'm just trying to give dumbledore a durability feat to go by.

5. You mean lifting an x wing where he needs to take his time to do. Yea very impressive. The years he spent only mediating and not progressing his skills as an offensive force weilder is one of the reasons why his powers are not as powerful as they should be. So no he can't constantly shoot out force push after force push since all his attention is focused on mediation and enlightnment not combative powers. So lifting an swing where he needs to take his time and close his eyes and concentrate that hard is not such an impressive feat. Also palpatine someone who hadn't used the force in years wa able to hurl senate pods and shoot lightning at yoda with ease so years do matter as he hadn't been using his force powers for centuries before the clone wars.

6. Body guards weight next to nothing and storm troopers can be taken out by paper machetes rocks and can't aim worth a s***.

7. How do you figure those two situations intertwine. In one scenario yoda is completely frozen with no way to move unless he's in the air like the pixies than he floats but can't move his limbs vs a second scenario where Luke can still move his hands, I know he didn't but just saying he can, and had an object to move and wasent frozen. How do those two situations seem like they are the same. If yodas frozen vs like who still has control of his limbs. How do those things even sound the same?

1. If by "argument of belief" you mean "argument from popular belief" then you are using the fallacy wrong as I never argued that I was right because ppl believed I was correct....

1b. So you're saying that its ok for you to use a one-of ability but not ok for me? Double standards debating.

1c. Protego cannot protect you from force attacks as they don't emanate from the user in a straight line towards its target. It is a telekinetic force that can affect its target as soon as it is willed. In clone wars, Palpatine manages to lift up and choke two mercs thru massive steel doors without even seeing them. Try again.

2. For someone who says he loves watching Harry Potter, you sure don't know your spells. Not all of its showings on screen deflect spells back at its owner. Hell, the Protego charms Snape used to defend against Mcgonnagal's attacks for example, as you love bringing up that scene. Go argue with the wiki writers if you don't think so, but I'm willing to bet they probably know HP better than you.

3. Speculation. What is provable is that he was completely prone for 3 seconds after the initial fall and another 14 seconds of being unable to do anything as Voldy gathered the glass shards. You say he was ready a long time, I say he just got up. What is fact is that he performed zero actions even tho Voldy was vulnerable. And a min of 3 seconds prone to 17 seconds from merely falling on his butt vs a poweful force push cinches the win for Yoda.

4. Which is meaningless as he is not even comparable to Sidious. Might as well imply he has Captain America durability.

5. Pure meaningless speculation and wishful thinking. You have ZERO proof that Yoda became weaker in the 20 years from clone wars to empire. And I have evidence that show his force powers are just as potent. And 20 years are meaningless to a being that can live up to 900 years.

6. Lowballing trained bodyguards and armored stormtroopers so you can argue that an old man in robes like Dumbledore has superior durability is both sad and LOL worthy.

7. Because Luke (a total noob with the force) didn't use his hands, he just closed his eyes and concentrated. facepalm That is all Jedi like Yoda needs to apply their force powers. Sorry, that is what you call proof.

Thismis further corroborated by frequent on screen demonstrations/explanations of their teachings that only require them to "concentrate" and are never told to "point their arms" to use the force, heck the fact that they can close their eyes to concentrate means that they don't even have to see their targets (just visualize them). I'm thinking the gestures is more of a concentration tool more than it is a necessary part of force usage.

I also cannot believe that you seem to be COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that Yoda has far superior reflexes AND precog so being hit by an Immobulus as soon as he is within range before he hits Dumby with a force push is COMPLETELY WISHFUL THINKING.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. If by "argument of belief" you mean "argument from popular belief" then you are using the fallacy wrong as I never argued that I was right because ppl believed I was correct....

1b. So you're saying that its ok for you to use a one-of ability but not ok for me? Double standards debating.

1c. Protego cannot protect you from force attacks as they don't emanate from the user in a straight line towards its target. It is a telekinetic force that can affect its target as soon as it is willed. In clone wars, Palpatine manages to lift up and choke two mercs thru massive steel doors without even seeing them. Try again.

2. For someone who says he loves watching Harry Potter, you sure don't know your spells. Not all of its showings on screen deflect spells back at its owner. Hell, the Proteg[b]o charms Snape used to defend against Mcgonnagal's attacks for example, as you love bringing up that scene. Go argue with the wiki writers if you don't think so, but I'm willing to bet they probably know HP better than you.

3. Speculation. What is provable is that he was completely prone for 3 seconds after the initial fall and another 14 seconds of being unable to do anything as Voldy gathered the glass shards. You say he was ready a long time, I say he just got up. What is fact is that he performed zero actions even tho Voldy was vulnerable. And a min of 3 seconds prone to 17 seconds from merely falling on his butt vs a poweful force push cinches the win for Yoda.

4. Which is meaningless as he is not even comparable to Sidious. Might as well imply he has Captain America durability.

5. Pure meaningless speculation and wishful thinking. You have ZERO proof that Yoda became weaker in the 20 years from clone wars to empire. And I have evidence that show his force powers are just as potent. And 20 years are meaningless to a being that can live up to 900 years.

6. Lowballing trained bodyguards and armored stormtroopers so you can argue that an old man in robes like Dumbledore has superior durability is both sad and LOL worthy.

7. Because Luke (a total noob with the force) didn't use his hands, he just closed his eyes and concentrated. facepalm That is all Jedi like Yoda needs to apply their force powers. Sorry, that is what you call proof.

Thismis further corroborated by frequent on screen demonstrations/explanations of their teachings that only require them to "concentrate" and are never told to "point their arms" to use the force, heck the fact that they can close their eyes to concentrate means that they don't even have to see their targets (just visualize them). I'm thinking the gestures is more of a concentration tool more than it is a necessary part of force usage.

I also cannot believe that you seem to be COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that Yoda has far superior reflexes AND precog so being hit by an Immobulus as soon as he is within range before he hits Dumby with a force push is COMPLETELY WISHFUL THINKING. [/B]

1b. I can understand why you would say double standard but that amount of speed was only used once in the entire series not even by the person you are debating for, while firestorm was at least used by the person who I am debating for, but it doesn't matter as timing wise he couldn't get the firestorm up in time.

1c. Force choke has nothing to do with this battle so try again. Force push doesn't inherently just go in a straight line but a straight push like it doesn't diverge from it path so protego would be able to defend. If it's a push it just goes for the opponent it doesn't just go everywhere unless it's force lightning. So yes protego could defend against a force push. Try again.

2. I know I had planned to fix that in last post but I was unfortunately busy these last couple of days and just stopped now so couldn't just put in every detail that I wanted. Sorry. Yes I know that the spell can deflect spells back, deflect it in other directions and be destroyed on impact. I know all of this. Actually I do know my spells the fact that the only reason this debate goes this long are two thing. 1. You say no books so I am unclear on whether that means dumbledore only has his spells he used in the movies? 2. Can he use all of the spells in the potter universe. So don't ever again say I don't know my spells when I know way more than you.

3. Well in order for that same scenario to happen yoda is going to have to find a way to put dumbledore to the ground like voldemrot did. Also the force is seceptable to distance as well. As seen by the force push by Obi wan and anakin Dooku was able to avoid it by jumping over it. So why couldn't dumbledore just apparate out of the way. Well not doing something isn't the same as saying you can't. As when he was knocked over like Harry he was protecting his face from the glass which in the real world is what they teach us to do protect your head and neck. So this could be something. But you would say speculation. However when all the glass which was HOMMING on them dumbledore from a perspective looked as he was ready and not just at that moment recovering. However this could be speculation but I doubt it, but you know.

4. A feat no matter how big or small is a feat.

5. Actually there is proof to him becoming weaker. If you are a karate master and you train every day for 35 years. Now you then stop because you instruct pupils but you don't train nearly as often if not any only focusing on the mind and enlightnment. Without that practice you still retain your knowledge but you don't retain the same amount of power as you used to and as you get older your reflexes get slower you become seceptable to old agape but you contain those same skills just not the same degree. This is what happened to yoda. No doubt while on his rise to grand,aster which is what is mostly refereed to as his prime he would most likely be undoubtedly more powerful in the force. However onc e he became grandmaster and had windu Obi wan Dooku and the other Jedi to do MOST not all but most of the field work for him while he was able to sit back and meditate on the force while letting his offensive force powers lack. This is seen in all his battles even when he lifts the x wing. The power he has is always there just not as powerful as it used to be. See what I mean.

6. I mean storm troopers that die from those Ewoks from small falling rocks. And bodyguards with no muscle mass what so ever. I mean with no defense to the force what so ever.

7. The proof you are trying to use is Luke moved a chair not a person. And also his body or anything else isn't frozen. While yoda would be. The only force weilder we have seen move people without there hands is Darth Sidious and that was with the mandalorians and with force choke. Seeing as how all of yodas moves he needs hand movements and not sure how the brain will work I would think that everything is frozen brain and body. Luke was just tied up and moved an object not an actual person. So an object and a person not the same and not in the same circumstances as one is frozen while the other isn't.

7a. The reason I dismiss precog so much is the same reason why firestorm is dismissed because it's only seen once. However unlike firestorm, the use of yodas precog speciffacly is only seen once from my understanding in the movies and it wasn't even specific it was very in general. However I don't outright doubt yodas ability in precog I just don't acknowledge it as yoda has never used it in a battle case scenario that I have seen. You may be able to provide a clip but I dismiss it. As for yodas reflexes. This is actually the numbers that you have given and I have crunched. You said that qui gon and Obi wan covered about 200ft per second. And you also stated how you believed that the DADA room was 50 ft tops. There are 1,640 ft in 500 meters. And with all the math done, yoda going at that speed it would take him 8.2 seconds to get within Immobulus range. Based on experimintation and the statement by stelath ranger it would take dumbledore less than .3 seomds to use the spell since its nonverbal and it doesn't send out a beam it just stops things in motion. So with that dumbledore would still have time before yoda hit him. While I don't doubt yodas reflexes it's not like he waves his hand in amanor in which we can't see.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1b. I can understand why you would say double standard but that amount of speed was only used once in the entire series not even by the person you are debating for, while firestorm was at least used by the person who I am debating for, but it doesn't matter as timing wise he couldn't get the firestorm up in time.

1c. Force choke has nothing to do with this battle so try again. Force push doesn't inherently just go in a straight line but a straight push like it doesn't diverge from it path so protego would be able to defend. If it's a push it just goes for the opponent it doesn't just go everywhere unless it's force lightning. So yes protego could defend against a force push. Try again.

2. I know I had planned to fix that in last post but I was unfortunately busy these last couple of days and just stopped now so couldn't just put in every detail that I wanted. Sorry. Yes I know that the spell can deflect spells back, deflect it in other directions and be destroyed on impact. I know all of this. Actually I do know my spells the fact that the only reason this debate goes this long are two thing. 1. You say no books so I am unclear on whether that means dumbledore only has his spells he used in the movies? 2. Can he use all of the spells in the potter universe. So don't ever again say I don't know my spells when I know way more than you.

3. Well in order for that same scenario to happen yoda is going to have to find a way to put dumbledore to the ground like voldemrot did. Also the force is seceptable to distance as well. As seen by the force push by Obi wan and anakin Dooku was able to avoid it by jumping over it. So why couldn't dumbledore just apparate out of the way. Well not doing something isn't the same as saying you can't. As when he was knocked over like Harry he was protecting his face from the glass which in the real world is what they teach us to do protect your head and neck. So this could be something. But you would say speculation. However when all the glass which was HOMMING on them dumbledore from a perspective looked as he was ready and not just at that moment recovering. However this could be speculation but I doubt it, but you know.

4. A feat no matter how big or small is a feat.

5. Actually there is proof to him becoming weaker. If you are a karate master and you train every day for 35 years. Now you then stop because you instruct pupils but you don't train nearly as often if not any only focusing on the mind and enlightnment. Without that practice you still retain your knowledge but you don't retain the same amount of power as you used to and as you get older your reflexes get slower you become seceptable to old agape but you contain those same skills just not the same degree. This is what happened to yoda. No doubt while on his rise to grand,aster which is what is mostly refereed to as his prime he would most likely be undoubtedly more powerful in the force. However onc e he became grandmaster and had windu Obi wan Dooku and the other Jedi to do MOST not all but most of the field work for him while he was able to sit back and meditate on the force while letting his offensive force powers lack. This is seen in all his battles even when he lifts the x wing. The power he has is always there just not as powerful as it used to be. See what I mean.

6. I mean storm troopers that die from those Ewoks from small falling rocks. And bodyguards with no muscle mass what so ever. I mean with no defense to the force what so ever.

7. The proof you are trying to use is Luke moved a chair not a person. And also his body or anything else isn't frozen. While yoda would be. The only force weilder we have seen move people without there hands is Darth Sidious and that was with the mandalorians and with force choke. Seeing as how all of yodas moves he needs hand movements and not sure how the brain will work I would think that everything is frozen brain and body. Luke was just tied up and moved an object not an actual person. So an object and a person not the same and not in the same circumstances as one is frozen while the other isn't.

7a. The reason I dismiss precog so much is the same reason why firestorm is dismissed because it's only seen once. However unlike firestorm, the use of yodas precog speciffacly is only seen once from my understanding in the movies and it wasn't even specific it was very in general. However I don't outright doubt yodas ability in precog I just don't acknowledge it as yoda has never used it in a battle case scenario that I have seen. You may be able to provide a clip but I dismiss it.

7b. As for yodas reflexes. This is actually the numbers that you have given and I have crunched. You said that qui gon and Obi wan covered about 200ft per second. And you also stated how you believed that the DADA room was 50 ft tops. There are 1,640 ft in 500 meters. And with all the math done, yoda going at that speed it would take him 8.2 seconds to get within Immobulus range. Based on experimintation and the statement by stelath ranger it would take dumbledore less than .3 seomds to use the spell since its nonverbal and it doesn't send out a beam it just stops things in motion. So with that dumbledore would still have time before yoda hit him. While I don't doubt yodas reflexes it's not like he waves his hand in amanor in which we can't see.

1b. It was performed by the student of his student and the student of the student, it is reasonable to assume that he knows the technique. Then if firestorm is not going to be up in time, why even mention it? Waste of typing.

1c. The force is applied directly to its target, it does not emanate in a linear manner. Else things like force pull, force choke or lifting ppl wouldn't make sense. And the force choke is just another method of applying the force. As is the force push. All are telekinetic abilities. You have to show the force push being blocked by a shield to prove your point. And you cannot.

2. Denying ignorance by feigning mistake is actually pretty sad man. You made the mistake, don't be mad if you get called out on it. You can't even spell protego right (it's with an "o" in the end, not an "e"😉, so at the very least, I know how to spell the spells better than you do (spells the spells, get it? 😆, it's a joke).

And yes, movie spells only. As I am not using book Jedi/Sith abilities. He is allowed to perform spells other ppl has done in the movie for as long as there is a reasonable argument that he should be able to do it (performed by a student, well known spell, common spell, not a unique spell) for as long as it is within his character to do it ( Yoda, for example, isn't gonna be casting force choke on ppl but can perform light-side techniques at the level or better than his students).

3. Pls post the clip on where Dooku dodged a force push cuz I don't remember this ever happening in their fights. He cannot apperate out of the way because he'll never see it coming as it is invisible and hits instantly. Again, he was prone (meaning not moving) for at least 3 seconds. You are speculating that he may have covered his head, by why bother? If he was ready and able, he could have just protego'd the falling shards with no problem.

4. Um. Worst argument yet. The "feat" system is essentially a method of evidence that aims to measure a character's limits by using past performance/showings as a benchmark. Small "feats" mean that he has small limits meaning that you cannot put those against higher feats" that indicate higher limits. Literally a "what is greater 2 or 10?" question.... Based on his past showings, force push KO's him.

5. No, you are speculating that he may have been weaker in the force. You have no proof. This entire paragraph of your is meaningless as everything we are discussing happened from clone wars to empires where he was already at the stage of being an old grandmaster jedi and there is direct evidence that he can still perform top-end "feats" via his Xwing "feats". You have zero proof to support your "he's weaker" argument, thus my proof > your proof. He is not as poweful in his "prime" but none of the "feats" being presented is of him in his prime and he's still more poweful than any jedi save maybe windu.

6. Yeah, like an old guy has a lot of muscle mass and can survive getting hit with spears and rocks when the only showing he has is one where he falls on his butt. Dumby has no defense against the force either.

7. Immobulus doesn't freeze the mind. As evidenced by the fairies hit by it still being able to blink and move their heads slightly. I've already proven that the application of force can be done without one's limbs. It's all telekinetic applications of the force, evidence (as shown throughout the movies) points that they are all the same thing, just different applications of it. It's not like spells that require special incantations, gestures and instruments (wands). And there is no difference between an object and a person as there has never been a showing of the force that differentiates a living target vs a nonliving one. The only difference is between force users and non-force users. And Dumby's no force user.

7a. You need to watch Phantom Menace. It was explained there. Precog is a BASIC jedi ability. Even Anakin as a child had it. This is the reason why they are able to block blaster shots and the reason why they seem so accurate/precise as pilots, etc. most can see seconds into the future and act accordingly. This is explained/shown in the movies, the books and the animation as well. Many of the Jedi in the movies realized the betrayal moments before they were shot down (their precog was too late on telling them as they were already surrounded when they found out). Basically, every time you see a jedi block a blaster shot, it is precog.

Yoda has the most powerful precog of all force users of his time. He can actually see the distant future. Were Palpatine not blocking him, he would have predicted the Clone Wars betrayal as well. You can dismiss it all you want but this is canon and supported by the movies, but your denial only proves that since you can't counter a supported argument, you conceded this part of the debate. Giving me the win.

7b. I already defeated this argument with a twofold rebuttal many posts ago. Sigh. You just added more flaws.

(1) Post clips of Dumby casting an attack spell within .3 seconds. He still needs to wave his wand which takes more than .3 seconds.
(2) We've already agreed (for fairness' sake) that Dumby can Immobulus as far as Yoda can force push. So it comes down to who can act first the second they are within range. As he cannot cast his spell while Yoda is out of range. I cannot get what is so hard to understand about that concept.
(3) And even in the tiny (less than 1%) chance that Dumby can hit him with an Immobulus first, Yoda STILL has a window to retaliate with a force push as Dumby would need to cast another spell to finish him off.

Nib, I'm pretty amazed you're still going here... Thumbs up

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1b. It was performed by the student of his student and the student of the student, it is reasonable to assume that he knows the technique. Then if firestorm is not going to be up in time, why even mention it? Waste of typing.

1c. The force is applied directly to its target, it does not emanate in a linear manner. Else things like force pull, force choke or lifting ppl wouldn't make sense. And the force choke is just another method of applying the force. As is the force push. All are telekinetic abilities. You have to show the force push being blocked by a shield to prove your point. And you cannot.

2. Denying ignorance by feigning mistake is actually pretty sad man. You made the mistake, don't be mad if you get called out on it. You can't even spell protego right (it's with an "o" in the end, not an "e"😉, so at the very least, I know how to spell the spells better than you do (spells the spells, get it? 😆, it's a joke).

And yes, movie spells only. As I am not using book Jedi/Sith abilities. He is allowed to perform spells other ppl has done in the movie for as long as there is a reasonable argument that he should be able to do it (performed by a student, well known spell, common spell, not a unique spell) for as long as it is within his character to do it ( Yoda, for example, isn't gonna be casting force choke on ppl but can perform light-side techniques at the level or better than his students).

3. Pls post the clip on where Dooku dodged a force push cuz I don't remember this ever happening in their fights. He cannot apperate out of the way because he'll never see it coming as it is invisible and hits instantly. Again, he was prone (meaning not moving) for at least 3 seconds. You are speculating that he may have covered his head, by why bother? If he was ready and able, he could have just protego'd the falling shards with no problem.

4. Um. Worst argument yet. The "feat" system is essentially a method of evidence that aims to [b]measure a character's limits by using past performance/showings as a benchmark. Small "feats" mean that he has small limits meaning that you cannot put those against higher feats" that indicate higher limits. Literally a "what is greater 2 or 10?" question.... Based on his past showings, force push KO's him.

5. No, you are speculating that he may have been weaker in the force. You have no proof. This entire paragraph of your is meaningless as everything we are discussing happened from clone wars to empires where he was already at the stage of being an old grandmaster jedi and there is direct evidence that he can still perform top-end "feats" via his Xwing "feats". You have zero proof to support your "he's weaker" argument, thus my proof > your proof. He is not as poweful in his "prime" but none of the "feats" being presented is of him in his prime and he's still more poweful than any jedi save maybe windu.

6. Yeah, like an old guy has a lot of muscle mass and can survive getting hit with spears and rocks when the only showing he has is one where he falls on his butt. Dumby has no defense against the force either.

7. Immobulus doesn't freeze the mind. As evidenced by the fairies hit by it still being able to blink and move their heads slightly. I've already proven that the application of force can be done without one's limbs. It's all telekinetic applications of the force, evidence (as shown throughout the movies) points that they are all the same thing, just different applications of it. It's not like spells that require special incantations, gestures and instruments (wands). And there is no difference between an object and a person as there has never been a showing of the force that differentiates a living target vs a nonliving one. The only difference is between force users and non-force users. And Dumby's no force user. [/B]

1c I think we misunderstand each other. The force doesn't go in a line. It like a ball of energy that goes in the direction in which it was caused. When yoda hit sidious hit went straight for him, it didn't just go everywhere, it went for him. So I'm not saying it goes in a straight line but it doesn't just stray from it original path.

2. I was busy those days so couldn't just put in every detail that I wanted. Also you do realize that there is a thing called spell check right, and this is a thread where you use fictional names for all these things. Whenever I put protego spell check changes it to protege. So yes I know how to spell. For instance I can spell, expelliarmus, crucio, pertrificus totalus. I can spell and all of those have spell check saying it's another word for it so, my bad I can't check every little thing when I'm busy.

3. https://youtu.be/9pI8IkWa3LQ. If you are in a fight and you don't know what someone is going to do, wouldn't you prepare a defense. Dumbledore could apparate if he wants to. It's nothing stoping him. If yoda raises his hand dumbledore would build up a protego spell to block or deflect his telekinesis. And yes he can prepare a shield quick enough as seen by Kingsley who was able to make a powerful shield within the time the spell hit.

4. Ignoring. Not important since dumbledore can just block it with protego.

5. Let me show you something. https://youtu.be/qtFadZ1dooM. There is a fine line between dookus and yodas force abilities. Notice how dooku can seemlessly throw objects at yoda while yoda leaves himself open. This is due to the fact that yoda has turned all his attention to mediation and enlightnment rather than his combative powers in the force. It's not that hard to understand. If you practice something for years you will become good at it ala yoda and sidious. However, after you get in a position of power where everyone does most of your field work for you you tend to get lazy and your skills decline. This is the case with yoda as undoubtedly when he became grandmaster with no real threat meaning the sith, you take advantage and focus on the less combative side of the force thus leaving your combative powers not as strong as the used to be. You may call this speculation but it's proof. As it is seen in all yodas fights that he doesn't show just a great amount of ease with his force powers, taking time and having to buckle down and concentrate while people thought to be on his LOL such as dooku windu and sidious can let out force powers with much more ease. Also he doesn't just let out force push after force push.

6. You seriously downplay magic. Magic is his defense and offense. Magic has way more variety and could match if not out due the force in its magnitude. However it questionable about the magnitude. However variety is with magic as you can do so much with it. Dumbledore if he were at full strength would definitely give yoda such a fight he might just switch to magic. However dumbledore is limited but still has a lot of elbow room to work with. While yoda has telekenisis that can be blocked and avoided.

7. Lifting a chair and a person are not the same thing. Yes you proved a person not frozen can we all know this. However what about a frozen person. Blinking and slightly moving your head are not the same as moving a person while you are frozen. Even if he does dumbledore can just shoot a spell and end it. Well the force needs gestures as seen. You need to push in order for a force push to occur, force choke even of very skilled force weilders, except palpatine need to make a choke grip. Force lightning no matter who you are need some types of gesture. So gestures are needed. As for Harry Potter, I have come to the conclusion based on the movies that once you have become so skilled like snape mcgonagall, dumbledore you don't really need gestures unless it like something like firestorm. Snape in chamber of secrets was able to use expelliarmus on Lockhart without the movement. And dumbledore does spells all the time without words. Gestures if your wand is already up you can just shoot the spell out as seen by Harry in half blood prince. It just depends where your hand is at the time.