Kain vs. Shinnok

A: time is immutable, do you want me to show you the official developer questions and answers page where it says time IS IMMUTABLE meaning kain never was really going to die, also Kain HAS never been properly killed, it doesnt matter if he was apprently according to you "going to"

I care what the game tells us.
What does the game tell us?
Time can be changed. It HAS been changed since Blood Omen.
Original timeline - Nemesis rules the world.
Altered timeline ie. time is changed - Kain kills William and alters the future.

Original timeline - Kain doesn't die in SRII. Raziel doesn't enter the Reaver.
Altered timeline ie. time is changed - Blood Omen 2 comes about with The Hylden escaping, Janos being resurrected.

These are FACTS. Time has been reshuffled multiple times.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
I care what the game tells us.
What does the game tell us?
Time can be changed. It HAS been changed since Blood Omen.
Original timeline - Nemesis rules the world.
Altered timeline ie. time is changed - Kain kills William and alters the future.

Original timeline - Kain doesn't die in SRII. Raziel doesn't enter the Reaver.
Altered timeline ie. time is changed - Blood Omen 2 comes about with The Hylden escaping, Janos being resurrected.

These are FACTS. Time has been reshuffled multiple times.

you seem to have a poor grasping of the game, Kain will never die from the blade, simple, there is no possible way anyone can kill Kain in LOK, and time is immutable, as in unchangable, you cannot change time if you didnt already which then ofc your not really changing it, time is immutable , a developer>your poor intepretations

Well, I'm going by what the game says.
Come back to me when wha tyou say is supported by the game.
As of right now, the facts are shown. Kain dies in the tomb of King William and Raziel would have gone on to be absorbed by the blade. That was the original timeline and you have no proof otherwise.
FACTS >>>> your interpretations.

they do indeed, which why the fact is time is immutable as said by developer :

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Jen,_Richard,_and_Kyle.html

TIME IS IMMUTABLE it cannot be changed, so Kain was always going to come back, just like when he had his heart torn out

time was never going to die, nothing would let him die at all, these are not facts your showing me, your showing me your interpretations of the game, SHOW me your apprent proof

Proof is laid right out in Soul Reaver 2.
YouTube video

He feels the spirit in the Reaver deranged and ravenous....How did that spirit get there?
YouTube video

Yep. Raziel was absorbed into the Reaver after killing Kain earlier on. No Kain to save him, he's forced into the blade and goes mad.

Oh and please look at the scene. See all those new memories? That be Janos being resurrected. That be the Hylden and all of Blood Omen 2.

Which never happened originally which meant time was changed.

Oh and time itself is forcing Raziel to try and kill Kain. As it always was. But guess what? He changes time and Kain doesn't die.
YouTube video

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Proof is laid right out in Soul Reaver 2.
YouTube video

He feels the spirit in the Reaver deranged and ravenous....How did that spirit get there?
YouTube video

Yep. Raziel was absorbed into the Reaver after killing Kain earlier on. No Kain to save him, he's forced into the blade and goes mad.

Oh and please look at the scene. See all those new memories? That be Janos being resurrected. That be the Hylden and all of Blood Omen 2.

[b]Which never happened originally which meant time was changed.

Oh and time itself is forcing Raziel to try and kill Kain. As it always was. But guess what? He changes time and Kain doesn't die.
YouTube video [/B]

How did the spirit get in there? have you not played Defiance? Raziel goes into the blade lol, understand your sources before you post them

Kain never dies, he cannot....Raziel never kills Kain

Ive seen the scene when I completed it several times myself, yes Kain has the memories of BO2 and has lived them both ,another thing that means Kain would still have his powers from BO1, but the thing is, this was still all written in time, this was always going to happen

time cannot be changed, read what the developer says, time cannot be changed, its immutable, Developer>>>>any other source since all these events are still YOUR own interpretation of whats happening

exactley, KAIN does not die and never dies properly, he will always excist or return some way, the scion of balance simply cannot die.

That would make a Nozdormu in the Kain universe unstoppable 😱

hm, sort of, as soon as he enters the time stream he would be deleted from excistence, however if he was allowed to stay, he would be like Kain in that universe

How did the spirit get in there? have you not played Defiance? Raziel goes into the blade lol, understand your sources before you post them

Wrong. The Soul Reaver there is not the one at the end of Defiance. The Soul Reaver there is like the one in Blood Omen - the one that screams.
The Soul Reaver Kain uses in Defiance is the Purified Soul Reaver which was never seen before.

Kain never dies, he cannot....Raziel never kills Kain

Time says otherwise.

Ive seen the scene when I completed it several times myself, yes Kain has the memories of BO2 and has lived them both ,another thing that means Kain would still have his powers from BO1, but the thing is, this was still all written in time, this was always going to happen

No it wasn't. It never would have happened because it was a paradox that had never occured before.

time cannot be changed, read what the developer says, time cannot be changed, its immutable, Developer>>>>any other source since all these events are still YOUR own interpretation of whats happening

Nope. It's fact.

Time can't be altered?

YouTube video

"Gy going back in time and ALTERING THE PAST you turned William the Just into the Nemesis."

exactley, KAIN does not die and never dies properly, he will always excist or return some way, the scion of balance simply cannot die.

Take it up with what the game flatly tells us.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Wrong. The Soul Reaver there is not the one at the end of Defiance. The Soul Reaver there is like the one in Blood Omen - the one that screams.
The Soul Reaver Kain uses in Defiance is the Purified Soul Reaver which was never seen before.

Time says otherwise.

No it wasn't. It never would have happened because it was a paradox that had never occured before.

Nope. It's fact.

Time can't be altered?

YouTube video

"Gy going back in time and [b]ALTERING THE PAST you turned William the Just into the Nemesis."

Take it up with what the game flatly tells us. [/B]

Prove its not the one at the end of defiance, the one in Blood omen is still the soul reaver, there are not two "soul" reavers which is why they break if you bring two of them together.

Time is immutable, it would of always happened

This is where you fail most, you fail terribly by going against developers word who knows far more on the game than the public thats for sure, and likely far more than we will ever know from the script and future games since i doubt another game will be made, but to make it worse, your bringing up what characters like the youngest and most arrogent of kains say, do you not realise the characters are wrong in the end?

another point where their wrong even in their eldest forms is in Defiance both Kain and Raziel belive they are the Champions for their races, when Raziel is both, the charatcers can be very wrong, and no matter what they do, Time is not really changing, their fates are already written and Kain does never die, he is unkillable.

Prove its not the one at the end of defiance, the one in Blood omen is still the soul reaver, there are not two "soul" reavers which is why they break if you bring two of them together.

Because Raziel never entered the Reaver willingly for that Soul Reaver. He was forced into it hence why he went insane.

Also, it is blatantly obvious visually. Look at the Soul Reaver iN Blood Omen 1 and 2 and then look at the one at the end of Defiance. TheY look nothing alike. Like Raziel said, the version he gave Kain at the end of Defiance was "free of all corruption."
The Purified Soul Reaver was NEVER seen before Defiance.

Time is immutable, it would of always happened

Game >>>>> what you think.

This is where you fail most, you fail terribly by going against developers word who knows far more on the game than the public thats for sure, and likely far more than we will ever know from the script and future games since i doubt another game will be made, but to make it worse, your bringing up what characters like the youngest and most arrogent of kains say, do you not realise the characters are wrong in the end?

A. Moebius said Kain was right..........................................
B. If the Developers told you Kain had an extra hand growing out of his ass, would you believe them?
The developers made the game thus they are saying "well, here's the game." Are you telling me that their word overrules their creation? That Superman can beat a guy who is a universe?
Creators' words don't matter. Their creations matter.
ESPECAILLY if what they say contradicts all facts in their creation.

another point where their wrong even in their eldest forms is in Defiance both Kain and Raziel belive they are the Champions for their races, when Raziel is both, the charatcers can be very wrong, and no matter what they do, Time is not really changing, their fates are already written and Kain does never die, he is unkillable.

Take it up with what the game tells us.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Because Raziel never entered the Reaver willingly for that Soul Reaver. He was forced into it hence why he went insane.

Also, it is blatantly obvious visually. Look at the Soul Reaver iN Blood Omen 1 and 2 and then look at the one at the end of Defiance. TheY look nothing alike. Like Raziel said, the version he gave Kain at the end of Defiance was "free of all corruption."
The Purified Soul Reaver was NEVER seen before Defiance.

Game >>>>> what you think.

A. Moebius said Kain was right..........................................
B. If the Developers told you Kain had an extra hand growing out of his ass, would you believe them?
The developers made the game thus they are saying "well, here's the game." Are you telling me that their word overrules their creation? That Superman can beat a guy who is a universe?
Creators' words don't matter. Their creations matter.
ESPECAILLY if what they say contradicts all facts in their creation.

Take it up with what the game tells us.

Prove all this theory your spouting, please do.....

prove it goes bad because he doesnt want to, there could be dozens of diffrent reasons, either its mad because it is starved, it is mad because its been sitting until Kain finds it in avernus, as Raziel says, he is imprisoned in the blade, he never wanted to go in it ever, he just has no choice.

what are you talking about, look notihng alike, their the same sword, they look the same, or do you mean the special effects around the sword? lol....the special effects Blood omen couldnt have done? youve no proof their not the same sword in the end, considering time movements and such, many things could happen to the reaver and your theories are not proof of any of it.

Developpers>>>>Game>>>your poor intepretations of the game

A. Moebius did? ofcourse he did, and youve got proof moebius knows that time is immutable? nobody other than the developers know that time cannot be properly changed until Raziel realises he cannot change it and his fate is already written, so he goes into the blade

B. That would be common sense not to belive that, and to think its a joke an officail and serious questions and answers interview is not the same, the developers know far more than anyone on the game, and your simply beating around the bush and grasping at straws to keep your dead argument afloat, the developers say its immutable, time is immutable and the game does indeed show us, that neither of them can escape their fates, Raziel was always going into the blade.

Take it up with the developers themselves, and what do you mean take it up with the game? more like your poor interpreations, i can see the game pretty clearly and ive played it enough times to see why the developers would say its immutable, its damn obvious.

prove it goes bad because he doesnt want to, there could be dozens of diffrent reasons, either its mad because it is starved, it is mad because its been sitting until Kain finds it in avernus,as Raziel says, he is imprisoned in the blade, he never wanted to go in it ever, he just has no choice.

Wrong Soul Reaver. We're talking about the one William had and we have no idea where Moebius got it from. Somewhere in the timestream but exactly where is unknown.

And don't you think you'd go mad from thousands of years after being dragged into a blade?

Also, again, the visuals clearly show the difference.

what are you talking about, look notihng alike, their the same sword, they look the same, or do you mean the special effects around the sword? lol....the special effects Blood omen couldnt have done? youve no proof their not the same sword in the end, considering time movements and such, many things could happen to the reaver and your theories are not proof of any of it.

Your pathetic theories mean nothing to fact.

Let's look at it then.
Blood Omen 2, the original Soul Reaver from when Raziel was trapped in the blade and not the Purified version.
YouTube video

vs.

The Purified Soul Reaver in Defiance.

YouTube video

Look anything alike? No?

Raziel never got the Spirit Reaver originally. He was trapped in Soul Reaver 2. THAT IS FACT and what you think means nothing.

Developpers>>>>Game>>>your poor intepretations of the game

Game >>>>> developers when the developers are contradicted by their creation.
Or can the Hulk beat Galactus becaue a writer who wrote the Hulk said he could?

A. Moebius did? ofcourse he did, and youve got proof moebius knows that time is immutable? nobody other than the developers know that time cannot be properly changed until Raziel realises he cannot change it and his fate is already written, so he goes into the blade

Time isn't immutable.

It's been changed FOUR TIMES IN THE GAMES.

1. Moebius turnning William the Just into the Nemesis.
2. Kain killing William and altering the future.
3. Raziel not killing Kain.
4. Kain preventing Raziel from entering the Reaver, thus making Blood Omen
2.

Game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.

B. That would be common sense not to belive that, and to think its a joke an officail and serious questions and answers interview is not the same, the developers know far more than anyone on the game, and your simply beating around the bush and grasping at straws to keep your dead argument afloat, the developers say its immutable, time is immutable and the game does indeed show us, that neither of them can escape their fates, Raziel was always going into the blade.

And Kain was always going to die until Raziel changed it.
FACT.
Come back when you have proof from teh games instead of your BS that contradicts every game in the series.

Take it up with the developers themselves, and what do you mean take it up with the game? more like your poor interpreations, i can see the game pretty clearly and ive played it enough times to see why the developers would say its immutable, its damn obvious.

Immutable; changeless, unable to be changed

1. Moebius turnning William the Just into the Nemesis.
2. Kain killing William and altering the future.
3. Raziel not killing Kain.
4. Kain preventing Raziel from entering the Reaver, thus making Blood Omen
2.

So, WRONG.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Wrong Soul Reaver. We're talking about the one William had and we have no idea where Moebius got it from. Somewhere in the timestream but exactly where is unknown.

And don't you think you'd go mad from thousands of years after being dragged into a blade?

Also, again, the visuals clearly show the difference.

Your pathetic theories mean nothing to fact.

Let's look at it then.
Blood Omen 2, the original Soul Reaver from when Raziel was trapped in the blade and not the Purified version.
YouTube video

vs.

The Purified Soul Reaver in Defiance.

YouTube video

Look anything alike? No?

Raziel never got the Spirit Reaver originally. He was trapped in Soul Reaver 2. THAT IS FACT and what you think means nothing.

Game >>>>> developers when the developers are contradicted by their creation.
Or can the Hulk beat Galactus becaue a writer who wrote the Hulk said he could?

Time isn't immutable.

It's been changed [b] FOUR TIMES IN THE GAMES.

1. Moebius turnning William the Just into the Nemesis.
2. Kain killing William and altering the future.
3. Raziel not killing Kain.
4. Kain preventing Raziel from entering the Reaver, thus making Blood Omen
2.

Game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.

And Kain was always going to die until Raziel changed it.
FACT.
Come back when you have proof from teh games instead of your BS that contradicts every game in the series.

Immutable; changeless, unable to be changed

So, WRONG. [/B]

Theres only one soul reaver, so where he got it from is irrelevent, where ever kain puts it after hes done with it in Defiance.

if you dont thnk they look anything alike then i heard theres many specsaver deals. and wtf? hes trapped in it in Defiance not SR 2, lol...play the games dude

no the game never >>Developers since they know tricks behind the storylines that none of us will ever likely know

does the Hulk writer also write galactus? if he does then Hulk can beat Galactus if the writer makes him do so and is allowed to....you have to take into account A: this is not a flawed comic where all kinds of stupid things happen, this is a canon game and B: LOK is made by the same people ,all of it is from the same company although diffrent teams make the diffrent games, Amy Herring was the story creator, their all tied in.

using your own example against you, what your saying is if LOK developer said time is immutable in Marvel, then he would be wrong to think he does know this, unfortuatley for you, this is a LOK developer.

even more unfortuate for you, you seem to have lost the grasp of the entire game and its story, its okie tho becuae a lot of people do, however better people at the story (the developers and me) than you are here to help you, come back when you understand the LOK storyline

Theres only one soul reaver, so where he got it from is irrelevent, where ever kain puts it after hes done with it in Defiance.

Wrong Soul Reaver...again.
Defiance never happened originally.

if you dont thnk they look anything alike then i heard theres many specsaver deals. and wtf? hes trapped in it in Defiance not SR 2, lol...play the games dude

Wrong again. Raziel enters the Reaver in Defiance. He is trapped in i tin SR2, the original timeline.

no the game never >>Developers since they know tricks behind the storylines that none of us will ever likely know

Like Kain has a hand growing out of his anus.

If what they say contradicts the games, it's wrong.

does the Hulk writer also write galactus? if he does then Hulk can beat Galactus if the writer makes him do so and is allowed to....you have to take into account A: this is not a flawed comic where all kinds of stupid things happen, this is a canon game and B: LOK is made by the same people ,all of it is from the same company although diffrent teams make the diffrent games, Amy Herring was the story creator, their all tied in.

Blood Omen 2 was done by a different team.
It's the same as different writers.
Same company, different set.

unfortuatley for you, you seem to have lost the grasp of the entire game and its story, its okie tho becuae a lot of people do, however better people at the story (the developers and me) than you are here to help you, come back when you understand the LOK storyline

Lolz time can't be changed.
Even if the game says it can and shows it can and it has been.

It's been changed FOUR TIMES IN THE GAMES.

1. Moebius turnning William the Just into the Nemesis.
2. Kain killing William and altering the future.
3. Raziel not killing Kain.
4. Kain preventing Raziel from entering the Reaver, thus making Blood Omen

Come back to me when you know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Burning thought
hm, sort of, as soon as he enters the time stream he would be deleted from excistence, however if he was allowed to stay, he would be like Kain in that universe

What are you basing this on? If time is immutable and Nozdormu is one with time, that should make him unstoppable.

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
[b]What are you basing this on? If time is immutable and Nozdormu is one with time, that should make him unstoppable. [/B]

Nozmordu does not excist in the LOK timeline, so he would be deleted from it, if he tried to enter

His powers is over time and not "warcraft"-time.

he woud still not be part of the immutable timeline of LOK, so if he tried to enter it, he would be deleted, he could not make himself excist in LOK since he does not, its not in the canon or any of it.

If he was placed in a versus inside the LoK universe he would be as unstoppable as time is immutable.