ANH Vader Vs CW Grievous

But he originally had like twice the Force potential as Sidious if im not mistaken. So even if he lost half of that, he would still have a roughly similar potential level to Sidious. Possibly still even more than Sidious or any other Jedi.. Because his potential was just sooo ridiculously high in the first place.

"he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor."

notice hes said has lost a lot of feasibility, to become that powerful, and not has lost all feasibility. Suggesting he still may in time be able to be able to surpass the Emporer.

Lol, are you guys talking about midichlorians?

Your midichlorian count won't drop just because you lose a limb or certain amount of body tissue. 🙄

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, he isn't losing power still in ESB. He lost power when he got put into the suit. The quote says he has lost the power when he became half machine and half man but it isn't he lost power when becoming half machine, it's he has lost power. But it is speaking in terms of ESB, and saying he has lost power since before the incident. Key part of the quote putting it into context with ESB:
"[b]And now he's half machine and half man so he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor."
[/B]

Again how does that discount the fact that he didn't become stronger and regained his lost powers? Hell even sidious stated that vader was beginning to regain his lost powerful somewhere in RODV.(I can't find my damn novel to quote).

Originally posted by darthsith19

Lucas is talking about ESB and he says "now". now = ESB, because that's the movie he is talking about and it's the movie that is playing. He wouldn't say "and now" and be referring to "now" as the end of ROTS.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Exactly. Which is why Lucas wasn't talking about raw power. He was talking about their current power levels. If you don't know how to use the gun, then it isn't even included as part of your power because it is of no use to you.

And TESB vader could be more "powerful" in overall abilities such as mastery, skill and combat prowess. He surpasses anakin in ALL of these categories.

Hell caedus was superior to mara yet mara's mastery, skill and combat prowess took him down.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Agreed. So he lost both power and potential. Therefore he would be weaker in ESB than in ROTS prior to the injuries.

Originally posted by darthsith19

you're right, it is diffiult to see what all was crushed there, but the room is certainly smaller and far less damaged that the one that LoE Anakin destroyed, which completely collapsed.

Originally posted by darthsith19

I was asking, how great a feat. that was, but I guess you're right, if Nadd's spirit is able to do it then it can't be all great, unless Nadd's spirit > ROTS Anakin. The thing with Nadd's spirit doing it is, everybody assumes that if his spirit is that powerful then at his peak he was probably amongst the best. It is powerful for a spirit. But note that Nadd didn't choke Vodo, either, just cut off his connection to Kun which pushed him to the ground.

Firstly i'm going by YOUR logic, you said PT anakin > vader simply because he brought down a larger area, and since vader didn't do that feat therefore anakin > him, now i'm bringing up the issue where vader has done things anakin has never done, and you try to downplay them.(I seriously mean it).

Ever feat listed for vader, you try to downplay them, discredit/refute etc.

Can't you accept being wrong for once?

Originally posted by darthsith19

The bridge was in RODV, right? It wasn't cut of anything before that? The tree he knocked onto the Dark Woman was cut first. And I thought the Force Unleashed Video Game wasn't being taken into consideration until the novel came out, that's what everybody says whenever the Secret Apprentice is put into a thread.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Again, he was speaking in context of ESB, hence the "and now".

Originally posted by darthsith19

There was also one time when Lucas said about Vader after falling into the lava (not an exact quote) "He was never again as strong as the Emperor. He was more like Maul or Dooku." Do you know that quote? I think it was in the Darth Vader Ultimate Guide.

Why did sidious say the boy is powerful, potentially more powerful than my self? if anakin was so MUCH MORE powerful than vader?

Funny how lucas only mentions vader losing the potential to become more powerful than sidious and not make any mention of him losing power in THIS quote.

"However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful.

THIS is backed up by RODV according to what i recall

The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice that was "more machine than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that, were Vader to fully confront his choices and disappointments to completely shake himself out of his despair, he would have been able to reawaken the incredible power within him.

Now look at the next sentence in bold

Yet, while Vader made progress in this regard, he was never fully able to accept who, and what, he had become.

This alone states that he has been regaining his powers OVER THE YEARS.

Darth Vader is too slow to block all four of grievous's blades. it's a fact. Grievous can dodge force pushes, take on five jedi simultaneously, and strike 20 times per second. (That was as high as he reached until obi1 couldn't block anymore and went on the offensive.)

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Lol, are you guys talking about midichlorians?

Your midichlorian count won't drop just because you lose a limb or certain amount of body tissue. 🙄

Yeah thats what I thought as well

Originally posted by Ivalice
Uh thats fact period, vader is 80% of sidious power level, so if he had lost alot of power, what was his % of power compared to that of sidious at first? 90%? 100% 120%? If he was more powerful than sidious, why didn't sidious admit it?

Exactly.. If OT trilogy Vader was never as powerful as ROTS Anakin, and OT trilogy Vader was 80% as powerful than the Emporer, and I think DarthSith is saying OT Vader is in the same league as Count Dooku, who was no match for ROTS Anakin... then that would make ROTS Anakin At Least 90% of Sidious in power. So pretty much as powerful as him.

In that case if Obi-Wan wasnt powerful enough to fight Sidious then he shuldnt have been powerful enough to fight Anakin either really.. So somethings not making sense here.

Ok, but note that "Now" was in reference to his machine self and "has lost" was about him losing his powers in the mustafar incident.

Again how does that discount the fact that he didn't become stronger and regained his lost powers? Hell even sidious stated that vader was beginning to regain his lost powerful somewhere in RODV.(I can't find my damn novel to quote).

But again you have to realise that ROTS vader doesn't exactly > TESB vader when the fact remains that while ROTS has a higher power level, he lacks the mastery and skills to fully utilise it whereas his later self mastered the force to an even higher degree.

And TESB vader could be more "powerful" in overall abilities such as mastery, skill and combat prowess. He surpasses anakin in ALL of these categories.

No, again you have failed to prove that he couldn't have regained his powers at all.

Simply because he was put in an small room, and he JUST recovered from his severe injuries so how exactly is he suppose to fully command the force?

Please DS i remember you rambling the nadd is greater than vader simply because he pushed nadd from across the galaxy, don't try to change your words now. It IS a great feat, nadd even as a spirit was extremely powerful and how many force users other than palpatine, nadd and vader could attacke opponents lightyears away?

you said PT anakin > vader simply because he brought down a larger area, and since vader didn't do that feat therefore anakin > him, now i'm bringing up the issue where vader has done things anakin has never done, and you try to downplay them.(I seriously mean it).

Can't you accept being wrong for once?

The bridge wasn't cut and so what if the tree was cut? It was merely a minor scar and it wouldn't matter as vader still effortlessly crushed its trunk, the result would STILL be the same EVEN if the tree wasn't cut.

"Now" was in reference to him being more machine than man, not his power level. Again even that can not disprove the fact that vader grew stronger throughout the 19 years. Hell if you think he didn't become any stronger then i think there is something really wrong with you.

Uh thats fact period, vader is 80% of sidious power level, so if he had lost alot of power, what was his % of power compared to that of sidious at first? 90%? 100% 120%? If he was more powerful than sidious, why didn't sidious admit it?

Why did sidious say the boy is powerful, potentially more powerful than my self? if anakin was so MUCH MORE powerful than vader?

"However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful.

THIS is backed up by RODV according to what i recall

The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice that was "more machine than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that, were Vader to fully confront his choices and disappointments to completely shake himself out of his despair, he would have been able to reawaken the incredible power within him.

Now look at the next sentence in bold

Yet, while Vader made progress in this regard, he was never fully able to accept who, and what, he had become.

This alone states that he has been regaining his powers OVER THE YEARS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Exactly.. If OT trilogy Vader was never as powerful as ROTS Anakin, and OT trilogy Vader was 80% as powerful than the Emporer, and I think DarthSith is saying OT Vader is in the same league as Count Dooku, who was no match for ROTS Anakin... then that would make ROTS Anakin At Least 90% of Sidious in power. So pretty much as powerful as him.

In that case if Obi-Wan wasnt powerful enough to fight Sidious then he shuldnt have been powerful enough to fight Anakin either really.. So somethings not making sense here.

Originally posted by darthsith19

That's what Lucas says. After becoming injured, "Anakin is never again [b]as strong as the Emperor." it dooesn't make sense to me, either, than Anakin would be equal to Sidious but that is what Lucas says. idk. But Kenobi was powerful enough to fight Anakin cause he trained him and knew his moves and weaknesses. And yeah to me I would say that ROTS Anakin is like 90% of Sidious. And that makes sense because Kenobi isn't strong enough to fight Sidious, but noone ever said he wasn't strong enough to fight someone 90% of Sidious. 90% and 100% aren't the same. That's like saying someone who can bench 700 lbs. and someone who can bench 630 lbs.are the same. They're not. [/B]

ur rite 90% is not the same as 100% but it is very close. Powerful enough to possibly have defeated him in ROTS if he remained a Jedi.
well at least your making sense out of Lucas's statements. but still it seems like from the statements uv posted that Lucas sed that Anakin in ROTS was already as powerful as Sidious. From Sidious level down to Dooku level... no wunder he hates Obi-Wan so much. Id hate him too! Lol!

I think its also worth noting that Vader wasnt very old even in the OT.. just like in his 40's I think... So had he lived another 20 years he could have still eventually surpassed Sidious in Power. Remember your quote said "he lost a lot of feasibility to become more powerful than the Emporer.." not all feasibility, so there was still hope of that.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, now was referring to his machine self from ESB. If I said "now we are debating" I wouldn't be talking about a debate from 2006, I would be talking about [n]now.

Maybe it was just him getting used to the suit, and after he got used to the suit he stayed the same. Also even if he was getting stronger that doesn't mean by ESB he was stronger than his ROTS self.

ROTS Vader hadn;t reached his full power, no, but I don't consider raw power to be the same as the power they are currently at, because raw power doesn't help you at all. Anakin had mastered the power that he did currently have. That raw power isn't part of his current level of power, just what he can be in the future.

How were his combat prowess and skill better? Skill at what, fighting? ROTS Anakin / vader had been figjhting for 3 years straight in the Clone Wars and had fought numerous adversaries such as Durge, Asajj, Dooku, and oether Dark Acolytes in the video game The New Droid Army, and he had been fighting droids and such and was in such good shape. Mace says that ROTS Anakin might be the strongest Jedi ever "and his power is still growing." On the other hand, Lucas says that after becoming a machine, Vader is like Dooku or Maul.

All I know is Lucas says "now (as in ESB) Vader is half amchine and half man so he's lost a lot of power."

Ok. So then what relevence does the medical center scene play in this debate?

I may have been debating that Nadd was above Vader, but I wasn't debating that Nadd's spirit was above Vader. It is a great feat - for somebody who is merely a spirit. idk how many others could do it, but I would imagine that if a spirit could do it at least a few other people could.

Actually, I originally said that PT Anakin / Vader > OT Vader because of the Lucas quote.

yes, I accept them, but I don't think a feat. that a spirit can do is all great. Maybe good though.

if the result would have been the same, then why did vader cut the tree at all? And you can't tell how far into the tree the lightsaber cut.

Yes, but it is talking about him being machine now, in ESB, Lucas didn't say "and now, when he became half machine and half man" he jsut said "and now he's half machine and half man". Since he is talking about ESB there is no reason to assume he was talking about ROTS unless he states so, the statement "in ESB he's half machine and half man so ue's lost a lot of power." works. I don't see any evidence that he was referring to another film when he said "now".

Lucas says he was as strong as Sidious in ROTS. "He was never again as strong as the Emperor."

1. I never said he was so much more powerful.
2. Lucas > Sidious, who is a falliable, in-universe character.

Okay. I will concede that he did indeed gain power throughout the years. But the last quote also says that vader "was never fully able to accept who, and what, he had become." And Sidious said he would have to "fully confront his choices and disappointments to completely shake himself out of his despair". So that means that while he may have made progress, he never gained all his power back.

That's what Lucas says. After becoming injured, "Anakin is never again as strong as the Emperor." it dooesn't make sense to me, either, than Anakin would be equal to Sidious but that is what Lucas says. idk. But Kenobi was powerful enough to fight Anakin cause he trained him and knew his moves and weaknesses. And yeah to me I would say that ROTS Anakin is like 90% of Sidious. And that makes sense because Kenobi isn't strong enough to fight Sidious, but noone ever said he wasn't strong enough to fight someone 90% of Sidious. 90% and 100% aren't the same. That's like saying someone who can bench 700 lbs. and someone who can bench 630 lbs.are the same. They're not. [/B]

DarthSith wants you permabanned.

Now. FIGHT!

Wow, Ivalice has shown some real improvement on the temper front. A pig just flew past. That's odd.....

Why is there a giant rock heading towards earth?

OH NO!! IVALICE YOU BAS......

Alright fair enough, and for the record, I do think that OT Vader is very close to ROTS Anakin/Vader.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Except that Grevious can move [b]Very Fast. Much faster than jedi master Kenobi, and almost certainly faster than Vader. It depends on the arena then, to see if GG can get to Vader fast enough. If he can then Vader loses. Just. [/B]

Force-barrier: a defensive Force technique taught to all Jedi and Sith which protects the erector from Force attacks(can be overwhelmed by a much stronger Force-user attack).

Only Force-sensitives can use it. Grievous IS fast but cannot erect a Force-barrier. Vader would squash him before he could crawl to his unicycular transport.

There IS a chance that Vader gets cocky and actually engages in lightsaber combat. The outcome is the same; dead cyborg roadkill.
There is about a 1.2% chance of a Grievous victory.

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
Force-barrier: a defensive Force technique taught to all Jedi and Sith which protects the erector from Force attacks(can be overwhelmed by a much stronger Force-user attack).

Only Force-sensitives can use it. Grievous IS fast but cannot erect a Force-barrier. Vader would squash him before he could crawl to his unicycular transport.

If it were that easy to defeat Grievious than he would have been killed early in the clone wars.

There IS a chance that Vader gets cocky and actually engages in lightsaber combat. The outcome is the same; dead cyborg roadkill. There is about a 1.2% chance of a Grievous victory.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
If it were that easy to defeat Grievious than he would have been killed early in the clone wars.

Grievous certainly has more than 1.2% of victory though he would most likely lose.

Grievous was a coward. He ran when the odds were DEFINITELY not in his favor. His chances are slim against Vader.

I underestimated the actual percentage.
I'd honestly say: 15% at most; that's my final offer.

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
Grievous was a coward. He ran when the odds were DEFINITELY not in his favor. His chances are slim against Vader.

I underestimated the actual percentage.
I'd honestly say: 15% at most; that's my final offer.

are you crazy. 😱
Vader is too slow to block grievous's 20 strikes per second, as i've said before. Vader is good with the force but c'mon! This is CW grievous. He can dodge the force!

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
Grievous was a coward. He ran when the odds were DEFINITELY not in his favor. His chances are slim against Vader.

I underestimated the actual percentage.
I'd honestly say: 15% at most; that's my final offer.

Originally posted by skywalker833
are you crazy. 😱
Vader is too slow to block grievous's 20 strikes per second, as i've said before. Vader is good with the force but c'mon! This is CW grievous. He can dodge the force!

While i agree with DS that GG wins in sabers, vader utterly destroyes GG in the force.

Btw, the ones who voted that GG would win if it was a force fight are very stupid and very incompentant.

Even in a Lightsaber fight OT Vader is sed to be in the same league as Count Dooku or Darth Maul.. and in Clone Wars cartoons Dooku had the edge over GG in lightsaber dueling.. So Darth Vader should as well.

And with the Force he culdnt dodge Mace's Force attack.. didnt seem like he could even react in time to aviod Mace's Force Attack. And I dnt remember anyone ever arguing that Mace has better force powers than OT Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even in a Lightsaber fight OT Vader is sed to be in the same league as Count Dooku or Darth Maul.. and in Clone Wars cartoons Dooku had the edge over GG in lightsaber dueling.. So Darth Vader should as well.