Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yoda vs Sidious videoRight at 3:40, the tide turns and Sidious looks quite afraid and pained.
Indeed. People always seem to overlook this. Sidious might have more offensive weapons available to him but their force mastery is equal as of ROTS.
I know this has been said many many times and not just by myself, but the two were most definitely not equal.
In lightsaber mastery, Yoda controls the engagement, making Sidious work double to keep track of him and even trapping his blade (2:35-2:40). Mind you, Yoda, barely as high as Sidious' knee, using a shoto saber, managed to trap his blade and hold it down. Shortly after, Sidious is shown hacking wildly, not scoring a hit (Watch it closely, every single swing is blocked neatly by Yoda before it's even truly begun) while snarling and generally not looking like he's having an easy time or it nor controlling the fight.
Then it cuts to him being saberless and up high with no real explanation, because GL hates his fans.
As for Force mastery? Yoda is clearly the superior here. In the lightning attack, Yoda catches the intial blast with one hand, steps forward now using both hands, and Sidious walks across the pod, increasing his power. Yoda, initially having a rough time of it, steels himself and Sidious starts to pee his pants. Then Yoda leans forward, the tide reverses entirely, and the resulting concussive blast ends the fight, Yoda falling the equivalent of several stories while Sidious manages to grab a handrail.
Fight goes to Sidious on account of ring out.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I know this has been said many many times and not just by myself, but the two were most definitely not equal.In lightsaber mastery, Yoda controls the engagement, making Sidious work double to keep track of him and even trapping his blade (2:35-2:40). Mind you, Yoda, barely as high as Sidious' knee, using a shoto saber, managed to trap his blade and hold it down. Shortly after, Sidious is shown hacking wildly, not scoring a hit (Watch it closely, every single swing is blocked neatly by Yoda before it's even truly begun) while snarling and generally not looking like he's having an easy time or it nor controlling the fight.
Then it cuts to him being saberless and up high with no real explanation, because GL hates his fans.
As for Force mastery? Yoda is clearly the superior here. In the lightning attack, Yoda catches the intial blast with one hand, steps forward now using both hands, and Sidious walks across the pod, increasing his power. Yoda, initially having a rough time of it, steels himself and Sidious starts to pee his pants. Then Yoda leans forward, the tide reverses entirely, and the resulting concussive blast ends the fight, Yoda falling the equivalent of several stories while Sidious manages to grab a handrail.
Fight goes to Sidious on account of ring out.
Your assessment of the fight seems spot on to me, it's exactly the conclusions I have made while analyzing the video many times.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
aye. me too. i always thought that yoda lost out of pure luck...
Or in star wars terms "the will of the force" and whoever said the comment about Sidious laughing,he was definitely using Dun Moch to try and break Yoda's will to fight/fighting spirit, since he (sidious) was appeared to be enjoying the fight and not tired while Yoda, you can tell is putting everything he has into it.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Indeed. People always seem to overlook this. Sidious might have more offensive weapons available to him but their force mastery is equal as of ROTS.
Darth Sexy, I'm going to abandon my usual patience and quickly apply the "bullshit!" stamp to the quoted statement. Very few people overlook Darth Sidious's facial expressions during the course of the duel; many more neglect or undermine Yoda's own expressions of pain and anguish.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I know this has been said many many times and not just by myself, but the two were most definitely not equal.
And I know that this has been said many, many times and not just by myself, but the two were most definitely equals.
In lightsaber mastery, Yoda controls the engagement, making Sidious work double to keep track of him and even trapping his blade (2:35-2:40). Mind you, Yoda, barely as high as Sidious' knee, using a shoto saber, managed to trap his blade and hold it down. Shortly after, Sidious is shown hacking wildly, not scoring a hit (Watch it closely, every single swing is blocked neatly by Yoda before it's even truly begun)
How does Yoda control the engagement, exactly? When Palpatine first launched himself into the Chancellor's podium, he was attacking Yoda at the same time, not being driven back. Furthermore, I would remind you that -- as the podium rises into the rotunda and the camera pulls back -- we see Yoda force Sidious from the central placement in the podium to Mas Amedda's spot. Yet when the camera resumes, Sidious has once again reclaimed the central position, logically concluding that he forced Yoda out of a position as well. Likewise, Yoda is the one doing the intense acrobatics and moving, and gains absolutely zero ground for it. I will also point out that none of Yoda's strikes breaks through Sidious's defenses, either. If you're going to assert that Yoda's clearly dominant throughout the duel, I expect further evidence to prove it.
while snarling and generally not looking like he's having an easy time or it nor controlling the fight.
Absurd. Palpatine made similar facial expressions during his fight with Mace Windu, even as he drove the Jedi Master back from the private office, through the hallway, and into the larger one. There is no indication that this was because he was "not controlling" the fight or because he was losing, Janus. He's an immensely psychotic Sith Lord who has just unleashed his full fury on an enemy combatant for the first time in presumably decades. You'll need more than this to insinuate that Yoda is superior to Sidious in terms of lightsaber combat.
As for Force mastery? Yoda is clearly the superior here.
He's clearly not, but I'll humor you.
In the lightning attack, Yoda catches the intial blast with one hand, steps forward now using both hands, and Sidious walks across the pod, increasing his power.
Let's put this into precise context, shall we? Yoda lands on the pod, ignites his lightsaber, and brings it to his shoulder. Palpatine reaches out and relieves him of his weapon via Force lightning and the Jedi stumbles back, but catches the lightning with one hand. Palpatine then brings his other hand up and emits more Force lightning as Yoda regains his footing and uses both hands to deflect it. Palpatine advances; Yoda remains stationary. He can't move.
I'm off to a funeral, but I'd appreciate it if you'd let me finish my argument before responding to it. Thanks.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Or in star wars terms "the will of the force" and whoever said the comment about Sidious laughing,he was definitely using Dun Moch to try and break Yoda's will to fight/fighting spirit, since he (sidious) was appeared to be enjoying the fight and not tired while Yoda, you can tell is putting everything he has into it.
I have to disagree. Unlike say, Yoda's battle with Dooku, in this the Jedi Master does not appear to be winded, slowing down, or unable to keep pressing his opponent until it becomes physically impossible for him to do so. Dun Möch is characterized by weakening the resolve of an opponent using verbal taunts. He does this at the beginning of the fight, and Yoda is not impressed. Likewise, if snarling in a battle against a little green midget who is trapping your sword and holding you down is somehow an expression of Sith taunting, I must be really behind the times.
I have limited time to, Escape, so let me just post the following to get the argument started:
Here's the first real attack of the saber fight:
Yoda does a leaping attack, back initially exposed. Sidious already had his blade up. He comes right down with it.
Next scene:
Yoda deflects his cleave without any effort or change in his jump direction. And lands and does a jump back which makes Sidious flail about and pull a stupid face:
Clearly, he's not in control of the fight at that moment, being unbalanced by Yoda's attack. Next, Yoda bounces again off of the center pod, this time behind Sidious' attacking shoulder. Watch the sequence to see how Sidious barely gets in a defense, and only in front of himself:
So now Sidious has lost any advantage and is in a saber lock of sorts with his opponent. Despite being taller, physically stronger, and having a longer blade (Equally more leverage), Yoda again controls the engagement and breaks the saber lock, initiating another leap attack:
To be continued
... And then during this twisting flip, Yoda hits Sidious' saber, but Sidious doesn't hit Yoda at all:
... And the swing which nearly connects is neatly caught by Yoda without any strain or effort:
And then Sidious snarls in fruitless rage and swings his blade like it's a scythe before it cuts to the Obi versus Anakin fight.
There's the first part. I'll do the rest tonight so you all can review it entirely, but so far it's near conclusive. This is Sidious and Yoda on even ground, not Sidious in the center on flat ground and Yoda on the slippery sides, dancing like a bee. So it's pretty evident that Yoda would take a neutral setting and whup Sidious' ass.
Interesting, if not overly analytical. Extolling Yoda for his defensive posturing is hardly providing veritable proof of the Grand Master controlling the fight.
Not to mention most canon sources describing the event--including the Databank--establish that Palpatine was simply too powerful for Yoda to defeat.
It doesn't, which isn't the point. The point is that we all saw the same fight and there are different interpretations of it. George Lucas states they are equals. If Sidious is too powerful for Yoda to defeat, logic dictates that Yoda is also too powerful for Sidious to defeat, seeing as how they are equals. Canon sources aren't required for common sense.
At the same time, and after viewing the fight and Janus' scans and interpretations, I have to agree with him on the saber combat.
...Continued from the above argument.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yoda, initially having a rough time of it, steels himself and Sidious starts to pee his pants.
I want to address this right now, so we can save some time and a potential flame war. Janus, it is absolutely fruitless to treat their reactions differently. If Sidious looked like he was going to piss his pants, Yoda resembled someone getting shot with a nailgun. Pain and effort were plastered all over his face. It's ridiculous to undermine one and aggrandize the other. And this should nail the coffin shut that Yoda would "whup Sidious' ass" if the effort to repulse the Sith Lord is causing him intense physical pain.
Then Yoda leans forward, the tide reverses entirely, and the resulting concussive blast ends the fight, Yoda falling the equivalent of several stories while Sidious manages to grab a handrail.
The tide does not reverse entirely. The situation you're describing is more or less the situation that Harry Potter found himself in during the Goblet of Fire versus Lord Voldemort, where they found themselves engaged in the Priori Incantatem; Harry overpowered Voldemort by forcing the "beads of light" from his wand to the tip of Voldemort's. Such a thing did not happen here. In reality, Sidious was on the verge of overpowering Yoda, with the lightning coil just at Yoda's hands. All Yoda did was finally push the coil back in between them where it detonated. He repulsed the Sith Lord's offensive, but in no way did he shove it back to him as if it were a basketball.
Yoda did nothing during that entire duel that demonstrated superior Force strength. In fact, one could argue that Sidious demonstrated superiority during the pod hurling scene; Yoda struggled to stop the advance of one pod. And before you put gravity into the equation, consider this: Sidious had no trouble ripping three Senate pods from their moorings and tossing them above his head (in defiance of gravity) so as to gain momentum before flinging them at Yoda.
You're better off arguing lightsabers, because the best one could argue for Yoda in terms of Force strength is absolute parity. Superiority is totally out of the question.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It doesn't, which isn't the point. The point is that we all saw the same fight and there are different interpretations of it. George Lucas states they are equals. If Sidious is too powerful for Yoda to defeat, logic dictates that Yoda is also too powerful for Sidious to defeat, seeing as how they are equals. Canon sources aren't required for common sense.
The argument is in the semantics. The phrase "Sidious was too powerful to defeat" is not necessarily indicative that the Sith Lord was more powerful than Yoda. During the duel, Yoda could not have defeated Sidious. And indeed, his chances looked bleak. He was in enemy territory, facing an opponent whose offensive arsenal was well in excess of his own and who fought in a much more cunning manner, and -- worst yet -- he was without a weapon. The odds were most certainly against Yoda, and he knew he couldn't have won the fight. That's why he fled.
At the same time, and after viewing the fight and Janus' scans and interpretations, I have to agree with him on the saber combat.
Janus's arguments are for the conclusion that Yoda > Sidious. You yourself said that Yoda = Sidious. Perhaps you could make up your mind?
Originally posted by Gideon
Yet when the camera resumes, Sidious has once again reclaimed the central position, logically concluding that he forced Yoda out of a position as well.
Which is a false conclusion. Yoda's not the type to remain in one position for too long, and the fact that he no longer remained in the central position in no way means that he was forced out of it. As can be seen in every single fight he appears in during the movies, his style places an extraordinary amount of focus onto kinetic energy, and he's shown to constantly be moving around his opponents, and attacking them from all angles. That Sidious was once again in that position would be better speculated as happening due to Yoda giving the position up, not being forced out of it.
Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Not to mention most canon sources describing the event--including the Databank--establish that Palpatine was simply too powerful for Yoda to defeat.
Only in reference to the overall engagement, and attempting to apply the same to the lightsaber segment of the battle is a Fallacy of Division.
Which is a false conclusion. Yoda's not the type to remain in one position for too long, and the fact that he no longer remained in the central position in no way means that he was forced out of it. As can be seen in every single fight he appears in during the movies, his style places an extraordinary amount of focus onto kinetic energy, and he's shown to constantly be moving around his opponents, and attacking them from all angles. That Sidious was once again in that position would be better speculated as happening due to Yoda giving the position up, not being forced out of it.
Very good, Nebaris. I can concede to this.
Edit: No, DS, he's not. From what I can see, he's right. There's no way I can conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that my version of that particular scene is correct.
And to answer your question escape, I believe they are equals in respect to force abilities. In saber combat judging by the fight, it looks like Yoda would eventually wear out and defeat Sidious on even ground, which would explain Sidious' reluctance to continue the fight on even ground. In terms of Yoda fleeing, there were storm troopers everywhere and he lost his saber so there was no point. But lets be perfectly clear that even WITH Sidious holding the advantage in offense, at the end their force mastery is equal and Yoda is working with less. Now with gravity, You're comparing throwing 3 pods down to stopping one and throwing it back up. If Yoda was able to stop 3 pods going down he would undoubtedly be superior to Sidious in force mastery. The fact that he stopped one and then shot it back up at Sidious is as impressive as what Sidious did. Now I know youre going to say that Sidious was laughing when the pod was up at him and he was taking it as a joke, but I could make the argument that Sidious did not have the ability to stop a pod going up at him.