Originally posted by Gideon
Very good, Nebaris. I can concede to this.Edit: No, DS, he's not. From what I can see, he's right. There's no way I can conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that my version of that particular scene is correct.
I didnt' read what he said Escape, I'm calling him an idiot for coming back to the forum.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And to answer your question escape, I believe they are equals in respect to force abilities. In saber combat judging by the fight, it looks like Yoda would eventually wear out and defeat Sidious on even ground, which would explain Sidious' reluctance to continue the fight on even ground.
Sidious was reluctant to fight at all, Darth Sexy. That he led the fight to the Rotunda is not conclusive nor necessarily indicative that he felt that Yoda would "eventually wear out and defeat [him]". You must put the circumstances into context so as to best explain the decisions of the characters; Sidious had just achieved galactic domination, a goal that had taken him decades to accomplish, and furthermore, there is no record of him ever being witness to Yoda's spectacular dueling ability (though he is aware of Yoda's reputation according to Labyrinth of Evil), so why would he conclude "I can't beat Yoda"?
In terms of Yoda fleeing, there were storm troopers everywhere and he lost his saber so there was no point.
If it is your goal to assert that Imperial personnel were going to interfere during the fight, you must prove it. As far as I am aware, the novelization, script, and movie all show Sidious calling for shocktroopers only after Yoda fled the Rotunda. So don't bother factoring them into the equation.
But lets be perfectly clear that even WITH Sidious holding the advantage in offense, at the end their force mastery is equal and Yoda is working with less.
Working with less? Substantiate.
Now with gravity, You're comparing throwing 3 pods down to stopping one and throwing it back up. If Yoda was able to stop 3 pods going down he would undoubtedly be superior to Sidious in force mastery.
You did not read. I said that Sidious ripped three pods from their moorings and simultaneously threw them back over his head in direct defiance of gravity without any visible effort.
The fact that he stopped one and then shot it back up at Sidious is as impressive as what Sidious did.
His stop-and-hurl session caused visible effort. Sidious hurled three pods far into the air, simultaneously, to gain momentum, without any effort.
Now I know youre going to say that Sidious was laughing when the pod was up at him and he was taking it as a joke, but I could make the argument that Sidious did not have the ability to stop a pod going up at him.
Actually, you can't, since Sidious displayed strength enough to do a much more difficult task with, ultimately, three times the weight.
Originally posted by Gideon
Darth Sexy, I'm going to abandon my usual patience and quickly apply the "bullshit!" stamp to the quoted statement.
Originally posted by Gideon
Janus's arguments are for the conclusion that Yoda > Sidious. You yourself said that Yoda = Sidious. Perhaps you could make up your mind?
Originally posted by Gideon
You did not read.
You know you're a fool when the people you suck up to don't take you seriously.
Originally posted by Gideon
Sidious was reluctant to fight at all, Darth Sexy. That he led the fight to the Rotunda is not conclusive nor necessarily indicative that he felt that Yoda would "eventually wear out and defeat [him]". You must put the circumstances into context so as to best explain the decisions of the characters; Sidious had just achieved galactic domination, a goal that had taken him decades to accomplish, and furthermore, there is no record of him ever being witness to Yoda's spectacular dueling ability (though he is aware of Yoda's reputation according to Labyrinth of Evil), so why would he conclude "I can't beat Yoda"?
Obviously Sidious was focused on #2 but after watching the fight several times, Sidious seems to exert more energy into the saber duel.
If it is your goal to assert that Imperial personnel were going to interfere during the fight, you must prove it. As far as I am aware, the novelization, script, and movie all show Sidious calling for shocktroopers only after Yoda fled the Rotunda. So don't bother factoring them into the equation.
Working with less? Substantiate.
You did not read. I said that Sidious ripped three pods from their moorings and simultaneously threw them back over his head in direct defiance of gravity without any visible effort.
Actually, you can't, since Sidious displayed strength enough to do a much more difficult task with, ultimately, three times the weight. [/B]
George Lucas states they are equals.
And Yoda stopped ONE at full speed and sent it back UP at full speed.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I have to disagree. Unlike say, Yoda's battle with Dooku, in this the Jedi Master does not appear to be winded, slowing down, or unable to keep pressing his opponent until it becomes physically impossible for him to do so. Dun Möch is characterized by weakening the resolve of an opponent using verbal taunts. He does this at the beginning of the fight, and Yoda is not impressed. Likewise, if snarling in a battle against a little green midget who is trapping your sword and holding you down is somehow an expression of Sith taunting, I must be really behind the times.
Fair points but I wasn't suggesting that Yoda was tired and Sidious wasn't. But rather it was very obvious that Yoda was playing no games and while we know that Sidious definitely wasn't either and he was going all out. What I'm suggesting is by laughing Sidious is trying to give the impression that this fight is a game to him, that he is having fun with yoda and he maybe trying to get Yoda to realize that Sidious is his stronger and lower his will to fight by the laughing and that could fit into the def. of Dun Moch as way to lower your opponents resolve to fight.
Originally posted by Elok Quintly
I don't mean to interject, but as far as I can tell Lucas only proclaimed that you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. Being able to compete with someone doesn't necessarily equate parallel abilities.
It wasn't full speed. The reflected pod traveled at a considerably slower pace.
Oh please, every pod Sidious threw down traveled at the same speed. You'd have to prove that the one Yoda just HAPPENED to stop was traveling at a slower speed.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He obviously made 1 out of two conclusions.
1. I can't beat yoda
or
2. Yoda is powerful so I'm not GUARANTEED a win against him, so I will put as much distance as I can between myself and him.
And it's illogical to even make number one an option. Darth Sidious has not seen Master Yoda in actual combat, though he is aware of the Jedi's reputation as a swordsman and combatant. Whereas the Sith Lord put keen interest on the progression of Anakin Skywalker's capabilities, there is nothing to suggest that he applied the same interest to Yoda, and without that intimate knowledge of how the Grandmaster's prowess compares with his own, he could not reasonably conclude that Yoda's abilities exceeded his own.
Obviously Sidious was focused on #2 but after watching the fight several times, Sidious seems to exert more energy into the saber duel.
Sidious seems to exert more energy during the duel? Prior to his duel with Yoda, Sidious has touched a lightsaber once for the first time in over thirteen years, whereas Yoda has had regular field combat and has presumably kept up his lightsaber training and ability, as he battled a very powerful Sith Lord and accomplished swordsman [Count Dooku] twice during the war. It's not a surprise that he's had to exert more energy.
No, I'm asserting that there were stormtroopers around the building and that it would be counterproductive for Yoda to find his lightsaber, climb up the senate building, and resume fighting Sidious, with the odds stacked heavily against him.
For some odd reason, Darth Sexy, you seem to be attempting to reiterate my own points -- but throw in some pro-Yoda spiel in to work out the kinks. To say that it is "counterproductive" for Yoda to find his lightsaber and so on implies that Yoda "couldn't be bothered" or "there was no sense in it" -- there was. What was Yoda's goal? To kill Darth Sidious by any means necessary, and that he willingly walked into the heart of the newly-formed Empire to do so seems evident that he was willing to put his life in major jeopardy to do so. The only reason that Yoda would not have resumed the fight in that instance is because he came to the conclusion (as per the novelization's narrative) that he could not win. Though he put up a very considerable fight, he failed, and he left.
Sith=Offensive force powers. Sidious=MORE than enough offensive force powers. Yoda's got what? A force push? TK? What offensive force maneuver is he going to use to defeat Sidious?
You were referring to the little showdown involving the lightning coil. In that instance, Yoda had sufficient Force techniques and all that he needed. It wasn't exactly a pitched struggle where Sidious is hurling Force drain, Force choke, Force storm, Force-whatever after him. It was one technique, and Yoda had an answer to it. In that particular instance, Yoda was hardly "underequipped".
And Yoda stopped ONE at full speed and sent it back UP at full speed.
Yoda struggled to do both, whereas Sidious was doing his Wicked Witch of the West impersonation. We're gauging effort, and Sidious pulled off an incredibly difficult feat, hurling three times the weight Yoda was working with in defiance with gravity, and displayed no visible effort.
You claim it was more difficult. I can argue this point that unless Sidious threw them so high over his head that measured the same distance as between him and Yoda, Yoda's feat of stopping one at full speed and sending one back up at full speed is equally as impressive.
No, you can't. Because Sidious hurled three times the weight in direct defiance with gravity without any visible effort.
Originally posted by Gideon
And it's illogical to even make number one an option. Darth Sidious has not seen Master Yoda in actual combat, though he is aware of the Jedi's reputation as a swordsman and combatant. Whereas the Sith Lord put keen interest on the progression of Anakin Skywalker's capabilities, there is nothing to suggest that he applied the same interest to Yoda, and without that intimate knowledge of how the Grandmaster's prowess compares with his own, he could not reasonably conclude that Yoda's abilities exceeded his own.
Sidious seems to exert more energy during the duel? Prior to his duel with Yoda, Sidious has touched a lightsaber once for the first time in over thirteen years, whereas Yoda has had regular field combat and has presumably kept up his lightsaber training and ability, as he battled a very powerful Sith Lord and accomplished swordsman [Count Dooku] twice during the war. It's not a surprise that he's had to exert more energy.
For some odd reason, Darth Sexy, you seem to be attempting to reiterate my own points -- but throw in some pro-Yoda spiel in to work out the kinks. To say that it is "counterproductive" for Yoda to find his lightsaber and so on implies that Yoda "couldn't be bothered" or "there was no sense in it" -- there was. What was Yoda's goal? To kill Darth Sidious by any means necessary, and that he willingly walked into the heart of the newly-formed Empire to do so seems evident that he was willing to put his life in major jeopardy to do so. The only reason that Yoda would not have resumed the fight in that instance is because he came to the conclusion (as per the novelization's narrative) that he could not win. Though he put up a very considerable fight, he failed, and he left.
You were referring to the little showdown involving the lightning coil. In that instance, Yoda had sufficient Force techniques and all that he needed. It wasn't exactly a pitched struggle where Sidious is hurling Force drain, Force choke, Force storm, Force-whatever after him. It was one technique, and Yoda had an answer to it. In that particular instance, Yoda was hardly "underequipped".
Yoda struggled to do both, whereas Sidious was doing his Wicked Witch of the West impersonation. We're gauging effort, and Sidious pulled off an incredibly difficult feat, hurling three times the weight Yoda was working with in defiance with gravity, and displayed no visible effort.No, you can't. Because Sidious hurled three times the weight in direct defiance with gravity without any visible effort.
Lets examine that for a moment. Sidious broke the pods, threw them over his head, and chucked them DOWN at Yoda. Now, yoda stops 1 pod at a fast speed with no visible effort. He shows deep concentration on throwing the pod back up, where Sidious couldn't stop it. Again, you are claiming Sidious' feat is more impressive while I'm claiming that Yoda's is equally impressive based on the circumstances, which involved stopping a pod chucked down at him and throwing it back up at Sidious with some incredible speed.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh I know, but he COULD conclude that Yoda was powerful enough that a victory wasn't guaranteed. I was just making a point that after watching the fight, it seemed that Sidious exerted more energy into the lightsaber fight than Yoda, and it would be logical for Sidious to try and bridge a gap between himself and Yoda.
That Darth Sidious was not confident of total victory was never in question, Darth Sexy, which is why I consider it pointless for you to waste time and space by stating as such.
But was this due to a lack of practice, or a lack of skill? Ahhhhhhh.
Drawing heavily on the Force will not enhance or improve one's skill with a lightsaber. So, you could chalk it up to the fact that one is a seasoned combatant and the other is not.
Ok now when you say he could not win, WHY could he not win? Was it because Sidious was too powerful, because he lost his lightsaber, because stormtroopers were near by, or all of the above? I never argued why Yoda fled, because he simply had to.
He could not win because he was battered, tired, and unarmed. His opponent demonstrated higher reserves of energy, a wider range of offensive Force powers, and more cunning field tactics. The second he lost his lightsaber, the fight was essentially over for him, because Sidious has not been wounded by his own lightning. The only shot that Yoda had was if Sidious had been hurled over the pod himself, even though that's not necessarily fatal to a Sith Lord.
No I'm referring to Yoda's lack of offensive weapons. When I say underequipped it simply means he lacks the offensive arsenal to defeat Sidious, and instead must rely on "pushing back" Sidious' weapons.
And consider the context you applied this in. Strength in the Force is not based on how many techniques one has mastered. That Yoda has lesser offensive techniques and still managed to rival Sidious's strength in the Force is not anything special.
Lets examine that for a moment. Sidious broke the pods, [B]threw them over his head, and chucked them DOWN at Yoda. Now, yoda stops 1 pod at a fast speed with no visible effort. He shows deep concentration on throwing the pod back up, where Sidious couldn't stop it. Again, you are claiming Sidious' feat is more impressive while I'm claiming that Yoda's is equally impressive based on the circumstances, which involved stopping a pod chucked down at him and throwing it back up at Sidious with some incredible speed.[/B]
I've emboldened and underlined the important parts.
a.) Darth Sidious ripped three Senate pods from their moorings and hurled them above his head -- in DIRECT DEFIANCE OF GRAVITY -- with speed that was similar to when Yoda hurled one back. He, unlike Yoda, demonstrated no visible effort doing so, despite handling three times the weight.
b.) You cannot claim that Sidious "couldn't stop it". He demonstrated superior strength featured in "part a", and gravity would be on his side. At that point, it was clear that he didn't take the fight seriously at all, laughing into his hand.
And consider the context you applied this in. Strength in the Force is not based on how many techniques one has mastered. That Yoda has lesser offensive techniques and still managed to rival Sidious's strength in the Force is not anything special.
I've emboldened and underlined the important parts.a.) Darth Sidious ripped three Senate pods from their moorings and hurled them above his head -- in DIRECT DEFIANCE OF GRAVITY -- with speed that was similar to when Yoda hurled one back. He, unlike Yoda, demonstrated no visible effort doing so, despite handling three times the weight.
b.) You cannot claim that Sidious "couldn't stop it". He demonstrated superior strength featured in "part a", and gravity would be on his side. At that point, it was clear that he didn't take the fight seriously at all, laughing into his hand. [/B]
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How so exactly? There are offensive techniques Yoda is unfamiliar with so how is it nothing special?
Strength in the Force is not based on how many techniques that one has mastered. Yoda is not the "underdog" or at a disadvantage in Force strength just because Sidious has more techniques at his disposal.
Ok was the distance equal to the distance between himself and Yoda? I think not. While it is impressive, it is just as impressive for Yoda to stop something coming at him at full speed, whereas Sidious did NOT.
Judging from what we've seen? The distances are similar, yes. Yoda and the Emperor weren't that far away from each other to begin with. Yoda threw a single pod up a slope in direct defiance with gravity. Sidious did the same thing, but with three times the weight and no visible effort. That is why it can be construed as more impressive.
Why can't I claim Sidious couldn't stop a senate pod coming at full speed? The fact that Sidious could move stationary pods, even against gravity, does not automatically mean Sidious can stop them coming at him at full speed.
Because the pod was climbing in defiance with gravity, simple physics are already working against it. That Sidious performed a similar feat with three times the accumulated weight would logically indicate that he can stop a slower, lighter target, especially when gravity is already working against that target.
He was psychotic the entire fight, going from laughing to grinning, to laughing to grinning, so you cannot say he didn't take the fight seriously,
Yes, I can. Sidious's cackling is a sign of amusement and his narcissism tends to lead him to the conclusion of superiority. Twice, he was in a position to kill Yoda -- once when he rendered the Jedi Master unconscious and once when Yoda was preoccupied with the Senate pod -- and both times he did not capitalize on his advantage because he was busy laughing his ass off. Clearly, it wasn't a wise move, but since he wasn't "going all out" at those points, you can't argue that he couldn't have stopped the pod.
otherwise he wouldn't have any desire to escape without fighting Yoda at all, or even distance himself from Yoda.
He wasn't trying to do either at those two points, Darth Sexy. Now, I'm sorry, but you don't have a cogent point here.
Originally posted by Gideon
Strength in the Force is not based on how many techniques that one has mastered. Yoda is not the "underdog" or at a disadvantage in Force strength just because Sidious has more techniques at his disposal.
Judging from what we've seen? The distances are similar, yes. Yoda and the Emperor weren't that far away from each other to begin with. Yoda threw a single pod up a slope in direct defiance with gravity. Sidious did the same thing, but with three times the weight and no visible effort. That is why it can be construed as more impressive.
Because the pod was climbing in defiance with gravity, simple physics are already working against it. That Sidious performed a similar feat with three times the accumulated weight would logically indicate that he can stop a slower, lighter target, especially when gravity is already working against that target.
Yes, I can. Sidious's cackling is a sign of amusement and his narcissism tends to lead him to the conclusion of superiority. Twice, he was in a position to kill Yoda -- once when he rendered the Jedi Master unconscious and once when Yoda was preoccupied with the Senate pod -- and both times he did not capitalize on his advantage because he was busy laughing his ass off. Clearly, it wasn't a wise move, but since he wasn't "going all out" at those points, you can't argue that he couldn't have stopped the pod.He wasn't trying to do either at those two points, Darth Sexy. Now, I'm sorry, but you don't have a cogent point here.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So Yoda's force mastery would have helped against something like Exar Kun's black lightning or Traya's force drain? Mastery of the force is one thing. Yoda and Sidious were equals in that aspect, however Yoda didn't have the necessary offensive weapons to defeat him.
Force mastery and Force strength are not the same thing, Darth Sexy. Pick one.
I disagree that they were the same distance. Furthermore, Sidious took stationary objects and lifted them over his head, whereas Yoda stopped an oncoming pod and chucked it back up. We're back to square one.
Sidious took several stationary objects, levitated them for several seconds, and kept the rest suspended as he threw one or two. He then hurled each of them in direct defiance of gravity. All of this with no visible effort. Yoda had to use the Force to spin the pod so it could gain momentum before he hurled it, and it still didn't display any drastic increase of speed.
It's not that "simple" because Sidious took stationary objects at his body level and threw them over his shoulder. Yoda took a pod (1) that was coming down at full speed, NOT stationary, and was able to stop it and send it back up.
As I have already explained, Sidious -- ultimately -- performed several tasks at once that required suspending, controlling, and then flinging in direct defiance of gravity objects three times the collective weight of the object Yoda was handling. All without visible effort.
Really? Sidious wasn't trying to escape the senate chamber when Yoda blocked the entrance?
If you're going to use sarcasm, don't apply it incorrectly. This is what I said:
Originally posted by Gideon
He wasn't trying to do either at those two points, Darth Sexy.
...He wasn't trying to escape during the moments he was cackling like a lunatic.
That sounds like somebody who doesn't want to fight because he isn't sure of the outcome.
Once again, no one said, implied, suggested, or hinted that he was sure he could win. This is the final time I will address this, so don't bother bringing it up again.
Sidious was shown laughing during the saber duel, then he was shown grimacing because of either Yoda's speed or his inability to defeat the Jedi Master. Again, his "signs of superiority" as you call them, are inconsistent with the actual fight seeing as how he first try to flee, and then when he couldn't win a saber duel, he put distance between himself and Yoda.
No one ever said that he was consistent or superior. I simply said that there were moments when he clearly believed Yoda wasn't a threat to him.
This is the very final time I will ask you to take your time to read. If you're not going to bother addressing my points correctly and cogently, don't post.
Sidious took several stationary objects, levitated them for several seconds, and kept the rest suspended as he threw one or two. He then hurled each of them in direct defiance of gravity. All of this with no visible effort. Yoda had to use the Force to spin the pod so it could gain momentum before he hurled it, and it still didn't display any drastic increase of speed.
As I have already explained, Sidious -- ultimately -- performed several tasks at once that required suspending, controlling, and then flinging in direct defiance of gravity objects three times the collective weight of the object Yoda was handling. All without visible effort.
This is the very final time I will ask you to take your time to read. If you're not going to bother addressing my points correctly and cogently, don't post. [/B]
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So Sidious is bipolar then?
I'm sure it's possible, given his dual-personalities and alter egos.
He's a threat, he's not a threat, then he's a threat he's not a threat.
Seems to be the gist of it. Bare in mind that I'm not deducing this or coming to this conclusion myself. I'm just giving you what the movie screen shows us and it fits.
Either he was very stupid, very psychotic, or very cocky.
Well, since he conquered the galaxy, we can rule out the first. Given that he's the ultimate evil, the second most certainly applies, and since you've read Publius's work, you're aware of Palpatine's considerable arrogance and narcissism, so the third applies as well.
Escape.
And I know that this has been said many, many times and not just by myself, but the two were most definitely equals.
But this is clearly contradicted in the movie, which is according to Leland Chee, the highest source of canon and the source we should "look to first". Ergo, if the movies show Yoda as being superior, then by all rights Yoda is superior. All other canon must bow down to the movies' version of events and beings. That's SW canon. You cannot use a blanket statement by the in-universe third party NEC narrator, or some novelisation interpretation, or an off-hand remark made by some forum goons... in the end, you must look to the movies first and foremost.
I notice that in this place, members tend to only use the movies when it supports them and turn against them when the movies cease to support them.
How does Yoda control the engagement, exactly? When Palpatine first launched himself into the Chancellor's podium, he was attacking Yoda at the same time, not being driven back. Furthermore, I would remind you that -- as the podium rises into the rotunda and the camera pulls back -- we see Yoda force Sidious from the central placement in the podium to Mas Amedda's spot. Yet when the camera resumes, Sidious has once again reclaimed the central position, logically concluding that he forced Yoda out of a position as well. Likewise, Yoda is the one doing the intense acrobatics and moving, and gains absolutely zero ground for it. I will also point out that none of Yoda's strikes breaks through Sidious's defenses, either. If you're going to assert that Yoda's clearly dominant throughout the duel, I expect further evidence to prove it.
Most of this has been conceded or disproven. As for a point-by-point ringside review, it's pending. Some of the scenes are very difficult to take screen captures of because the take is long and quick. I'll have it up shortly.
Absurd. Palpatine made similar facial expressions during his fight with Mace Windu, even as he drove the Jedi Master back from the private office, through the hallway, and into the larger one. There is no indication that this was because he was "not controlling" the fight or because he was losing, Janus. He's an immensely psychotic Sith Lord who has just unleashed his full fury on an enemy combatant for the first time in presumably decades. You'll need more than this to insinuate that Yoda is superior to Sidious in terms of lightsaber combat.
Sidious looks pained, unhappy, and overly-focused when he's fighting Yoda in lightsaber combat, but when he finally has some room and is up high, he's laughing. Likewise, when Yoda threw the pod back, he looked like he shit his pants, and then he jumped away. After that, he looked around all paranoid, and looked absolutely terrified when Yoda reversed his lightning.
All in all, Sidious doesn't have that smug, shit-eating grin that a winner has, or someone confident in their victory. Sidious looked noticeably more confident fighting Mace then he did Yoda. He didn't try to run from Mace, either.
Then there's the nagging fact that Sidious was unable to keep Yoda at bay during the fight or knock him out. Yoda KO'd himself like some demented Super Smash Bros. player in trying to defend against the lightning. Again, supposing for yourself that Sidious was the one controlling the fight, he would have come out better. Not saberless, grabbing a handrail and having leveled half of the damn senate room. As it was, Yoda was defeated by the one thing which could stop him- a fall from several stories.
I want to address this right now, so we can save some time and a potential flame war. Janus, it is absolutely fruitless to treat their reactions differently. If Sidious looked like he was going to piss his pants, Yoda resembled someone getting shot with a nailgun. Pain and effort were plastered all over his face. It's ridiculous to undermine one and aggrandize the other. And this should nail the coffin shut that Yoda would "whup Sidious' ass" if the effort to repulse the Sith Lord is causing him intense physical pain.
Let's correct something here that you seem to be glossing over:
Yoda only looks pained when he's first confronted with a huge concentration of Sith lightning. And then, when he looks like he's about to bite the dust, he steels himself and pushes back with such force that Sidious looks downright afraid and pained. Yoda at no point looks afraid. Pained? Once, and briefly overcome. Afraid? No.
So yeah, put it into context, Escape. Please do so.
In reality, Sidious was on the verge of overpowering Yoda, with the lightning coil just at Yoda's hands. All Yoda did was finally push the coil back in between them where it detonated. He repulsed the Sith Lord's offensive, but in no way did he shove it back to him as if it were a basketball.
You seem to be smoking some serious dope, because your concept of "advantage" as well as "turning of the tide" are strangely incompatible with the real world.
Sidious poured on the Sith Lightning at Yoda from a distance of less than eight feet for a good 18-20 seconds before Yoda got the pissed look, Sidious then suddenly got the pained look (Before Yoda had even done anything other than stop grimacing), and then Yoda pushed forward and then there was the explosion. The actual push takes less than three seconds. Sidious simply could not resist. If this isn't a show of superior force mastery and power, nothing will suffice.
Yoda did nothing during that entire duel that demonstrated superior Force strength. In fact, one could argue that Sidious demonstrated superiority during the pod hurling scene; Yoda struggled to stop the advance of one pod. And before you put gravity into the equation, consider this: Sidious had no trouble ripping three Senate pods from their moorings and tossing them above his head (in defiance of gravity) so as to gain momentum before flinging them at Yoda.
Except this is wrong. Firstly, Yoda did NOT struggle to stop the pod. He did it instantly.
Secondly...
The pods make humming sounds because their anti-grav systems are enabled when Sidious throws them!
Watch the DVD with the sound way up. You can hear it. Sidious is manipulating the anti-grav systems to throw them at Yoda. Yoda catches one in a heartbeat, spins it around (Notice there's no humming sound when Yoda throws it), and it comes flying at Sidious. Sidious does not even consider stopping it using the force.
QED, Escape.
You're better off arguing lightsabers, because the best one could argue for Yoda in terms of Force strength is absolute parity. Superiority is totally out of the question.
Let's look at my position in full:
Lightsaber combat- Yoda on neutral ground held every advantage. He pushed Sidious who was barely able to keep up, and he was able to create openings in Sidious' defense while showing none of his own. Even on the pod, he was able to keep this same advantage
Force combat- Yoda demonstrates the ability to overcome Sidious' vaunted lightning, his most powerful attack in the movies. Likewise, he makes all TK pointless, as he dodges it or outright stops it dead and hurls it back. Sidious is revealed to be using the anti-grav systems and not his own force power, so it's apparent he can't just haul up three at a time using his own power. His Sith lightning, on which he relies quite a bit, is useless against Yoda.
Conclusion: In a neutral setting, no falls, Yoda wins, hands down. Yoda is superior.
Escape, feel free to argue this against all logic.