Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
What? DS accusing OTHERS of Anceint Sith fanboyism? Of blowing Marka Ragnos’ scepter?
Advice for the future, DS: Let he who is without stupidity and easily exploitable weaknesses castthe first accusation.
Right now, I shall leave you rendered as much of a threat as the Black Knight from Monty Python; albeit a limbless torso bleeding on me would be a far greater threat than whatever childish counter you can cobble together.
Seeing as how you've just embarassed yourself by failing to read Escape's posts for the last 6 months, thanks for the laughs..
I guess you missed Escape's point of me being a former ancient sith fanboy who renounced them due to overwhelming evidence. Way to own yourself again Nikkolas. No wonder you got banned..
Wow. Well, congratulations. You've changed a policy you've believed in for years in the span of a couple of months.
Impressive. Most impressive.
And no wonder I was banned? Well, I wasn't. But even if I was, you were the idiot who was banned. Tdtd, a guy so retarded, he thought anyone not made a Sith by Marka Ragnos wasn't a real Sith at all.
Pathetic.
Seeing as how you've just embarassed yourself by failing to read Escape's posts for the last 6 months, thanks for the laughs..
It was good laughs. Everyone laughing at your sorry ass is a merry good time that never ends.
Advice for Nikkolas: Reading comprehension is your friend. Being a stalker is not..
Where's the love?
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
[B]Wow. Well, congratulations. You've changed a policy you've believed in for years in the span of a couple of months.
Impressive. Most impressive.And no wonder I was banned? Well, I wasn't. But even if I was, you were the idiot who was banned. Tdtd, a guy so retarded, he thought anyone not made a Sith by Marka Ragnos wasn't a real Sith at all.
Pathetic.
It was good laughs. Everyone laughing at your sorry ass is a merry good time that never ends.
This lacks the obsessive, compulsive nature of Janus's problem with me. Nikkolas, Darth Sexy was an Ancient Sith fanboy who has "renounced" them or whatever a long time ago. He still likes them and Ragnos is among his favorite characters, but he wisely realizes he can't establish that they "own all!" and relents. Essentially, by posting examples of his pro-Ragnos stances, you've actually proven how far he's come and how he's able to separate himself from his most fervent biases.
That said, DS, you really do need to lay off Nikkolas. You think he's a sock, he thinks you're one.
Originally posted by Gideon
This lacks the obsessive, compulsive nature of Janus's problem with me. Nikkolas, Darth Sexy was an Ancient Sith fanboy who has "renounced" them or whatever a long time ago. He still likes them and Ragnos is among his favorite characters, but he wisely realizes he can't establish that they "own all!" and relents. Essentially, by posting examples of his pro-Ragnos stances, you've actually proven how far he's come and how he's able to separate himself from his most fervent biases.That said, DS, you really do need to lay off Nikkolas. You think he's a sock, he thinks you're one.
I probably do. However Escape, I can prove he's one seeing as how he posts the exact same shit on EOD and gave up on trying to hide his identity, whereas he can't prove I'm one, instead riding Janus' nuts.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I probably do. However Escape, I can prove he's one seeing as how he posts the exact same shit on EOD and gave up on trying to hide his identity, whereas he can't prove I'm one, instead riding Janus' nuts.
But there are better ways to deal with it, the argument that Janus seems so keen on reliving is the culmination of years of disagreement between us. You two seem just keen on pissing each other off, giving the statements you've both made to each other here and on EoD. All of the baits and jabs I make to Janus are for a reason, they lack ill intent or ill will (he's not a bad guy), but as I have offered him the alternative of a discussion, perhaps you might do the same for Nikkolas? Because there is really no true, serious problem between you two that I see.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're too civil for my taste Escape. I just hate stupidity and ignorance. VEry little patience for it.
Janus has correctly pointed out that my patience is not inexhaustible nor will I pretend to be a saint and point out that I abhor baiting. Still, there is a line between it and outright flaming. You need only look at my profile to see where that leads. Neither you or Nikk are bad guys, and neither of you are stupid.
ROFL, Escape. One must love it. You keep arguing and arguing and then you "leave" the debate with the reason that you don't want to accept the conditions of the fight. Hilarious! Not that I will let you get away with it...
Originally posted by Gideon
It was only a matter of time before Nai arrived to demonstrate the capacity for arrogance in spite of mediocre ability.
Oh, Escape. Didn't our last little "discussion" teach you that you're the guy with the "mediocre ability" here when it comes down to "flaming"? Is that the great demonstration of how human beings (I guess you still are one? One can never know, what the self-proclaimed prophet of objective arguments has coming into his mind next) are unable to learn from history?
Hey, Nai, did you happen to read any of the arguments posted by Janus and Lord Darkstar? Obviously not, but I'll play the good samaritan and recap the situation for you: it was Janus's contention that Yoda was decisively kicking Sidious's ass during their duel in Revenge of the Sith and, as a result, he would be able to do so on even ground. Lord Darkstar took up the same argument on Janus's behalf, which is why I mentioned the three aforementioned sources; not a single supplement to the movies concludes that Yoda was doing any bit of ass kicking. Now, while I appreciate your unnecessary observation of the logistics of this particular duel, you might want to sit this one out. No need for someone ignorant of the circumstances of the debate to throw in his two cents if he's not going to bother to read. Don't you make a habit out of lecturing others for that?
An entire paragraph that doesn't contain any useable statement. You're getting better in the "throw senseless words out" department. So now you're clinging to the statement that "Yoda would kick Sidious ass" on equal ground. Let me get that straight: You're wasting your precious free-time because that statements doesn't suit your mindset while, in general, you do agree that Yoda would beat Sidious on equal ground? Or do you, having all that nice little statements in your nice little sources, claim that they are, no matter what circumstances they fight in, equals in terms of force powers and lightsaber ability?
Because in the first case, you would be an idiot, wasting time with a nonsensical argument. While in the second case you would just be a Sidious fanboy. Your choice.
[sarcasm] Wow, Nai, you're sure starting your baits and jabs off in a much more versatile manner than usual.[/sarcasm]Should I start a "wow count"? I understand that English isn't your native language, but some versatility would be nice.
I'd love to see you counting that "wow" uses of myself, Escape. But on the other handside I don't want to be responsible for the brain seizure you're like going to suffer being confronted with all those numbers exceeding one digit. But of course it might be warm were you live. Wearing sandals you might be able to count up to 20 – if you don't wear socks that is. Although I'm not entirely sure if that will work, watching your recent loss of intelligence. Losing your mind because of facing oposition here once more?
If the disparity between Yoda and Sidious were as immense as Janus likes to pretend that it is, yes, Nai, he should have been able to render Sidious without his weapon in such a short amount of time. That he was unable to would suggest that either the "holes" in Sidious's defense really weren't that large to exploit or Yoda was unable to do so for whatever reason.
And now we're back at grasping the straws, Escape. Is it so hard to admit that Yoda is superior to Sidious in terms of lightsaber combat? Do you have to run around that point each and every time it pops up in front of you?
What are you on about? Yoda's position was hardly disadvantageous, as his form relies on kinetic energy and fast movements to apply force on his opponents. Had their positions been reversed, Yoda would have been at a disadvantage, as he would lack the room to maneuver. If it is your contention that Sidious "had teh superior position!!1!", it might be best for you to relearn the basics of Ataru; it was to Yoda's best interest that Sidious remain in the center of the podium.
Great, Escape. Before you start throwing any of your famous "opinions" at me, like they are fact, you maybe want to learn the basics of swordfighting. Or you might want to take Yoda's size into consideration here. Let me explain that to you in detail as this is, apparently, all that helps (I'll paint you a picture if the following words won't reach your mind):
a) Yes. Yoda's technique relies on kynetic attacks, Escape. The point is that an opponent, given Yoda's size, would have much more trouble with defending himself against attacks that the Jedi Master places in his natural height (so against the opponents legs / lower body) than he will have with attacks on a "normal" level. Every guy who has the slightest idea about swordfighting will tell you that the legs are, normally, the hardest thing to protect if somebody decides to constantly attack that area. Something that Yoda would easily be able to do, facing an opponent on equal ground. That was completely negated due to the positioning.
b) Going futher into the size detail, a swordfighter will find it terrible to fight somebody as small as Yoda because he constantly has to place his attacks downwards. That, naturally, means less powerful (in terms of strength) swings and strikes and will normally result in 2/3s of your usual manouvers become totally useless. Once more this was negated due to the positioning as Yoda was moving on a normal attack level (from Sidious point of view).
c) I hope you don't want to argue that: If you just have to turn around to attack an opponent, you will most certainly need less energy to fight, than somebody, who's constantly running and jumping around you in order to dodge your attacks and place strikes against you on his own.
Reversing the positions, dear Escape, would simply have boosted Yoda's advantages due to his size. Sidious would have needed to bow down to hit him while the Jedi Master, in turn, would have been able to apply his usual accrobatics to gain momentum in striking right against Sidious legs. I hope you enjoyed that little lesson in terms of swordfighting. Maybe you want to keep your mouth shut the next time you've pretty much no idea what you're talking about.
Aside of that: Your "blahblah!!!!11111" gets boring. You may want to cut that out, not only because that's actually my trademark, but also because asking for more versatility in my postings while repeating the same "funny" stuff over and over again doesn't make you look too great.
The passage of time is not indicative of inferior skill relative to other combatants; it would only be indicative that Sidious is not as good as he once was when he practiced with a lightsaber frequently. After all, his state of dormancy in terms of lightsaber skill did not mean that his abilities atrophied totally, as he was still able to outmaneuver and defeat three of the finest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history in about twenty seconds, the third of which he managed to kill while sparring with Windu himself. And, while I appreciate the attempt at the ABC argument, Windu's Vaapad is tailor made to work wonders against dark side combatants, turning "the dark into a weapon of the light", so attempting to bring Yoda's skills in comparison to Windu's into the equation is ridiculous.
Yoda was able to outmanouver three of the Orders best combatants (among them a person that was almost on par with Mace Windu in terms of lightsaber skill, namely Depa Billaba) without even holding a lightsaber in hand. I'd say Sidious' demonstration of lightsaber skill (which was, as I may remind you, more sucessful due to Sidious speed aka Dark Side mastery than a result of his skill in handling his weapon) pales in comparison.
And you should stop putting words in my mouth, Escape. I'm not attempting an ABC argument here. I was merely stating that Mace Windu claims totally inferiority to Yoda in all disciplines that do actually matter in a duel between two force users. And you should possibly read the RotS novel again, seeing what Vaapad did. It slowed Sidious down in the particular situation, to an extend where he and Mace basically reached a stalemate in the lightsaber fight which could have lasted forever. Yoda, even without that special ability, does visibly move faster than Sidious. In other words: He doesn't need the advantage that Vaapad did grant Mace Windu in his duel against Sidious as he already is the superior combatant.
Really, Nai, is it your habit to apply sarcasm to situations when you're hardly making a point?
Hey, kid. Is it your habit to lecture people that are almost a decade older than you on their "habits"? Attempting ad hominem doesn't save your – nonexistant – argument which, suprise, consists of babbling and babbling without receiving anything with it.
...Lecturing people on reading comprehension should be high on the list of 'things not to do when arguing with Gideon, especially if he makes it look like I am a complete an utter ass'. It was never my contention that, in mid-swing, Sidious puts his lightsaber away. Now, is it your contention that an unarmed Sidious managed to escape from a lightsaber-wielding-Yoda and put several meters worth of distance between them? That would suggest that Yoda was either disabled by the Sith Lord or that Sidious is much faster than his opponent. Either way, you're not helping your case.
Excuse me, Escape. And what was that you had in mind, allowing Sidious to move away from the fight and then put his lightsaber away? Illuminate us all with the blinding light of your imagination.
The former is totally out of the question, unless it is your contention that Sidious can move far faster than Yoda or overpowered him, despite being unarmed. The latter is something that I have no problem accepting and it is more logical [though, once again, it is fallacious to state that Yoda was at a disadvantage because of Sidious's position].
Notice, Escape that you're still busy with worming out of the situation that Yoda is apparently Sidious superior when it comes down to sheer lightsaber skill. It's nice how you try to lure away attention from that little fact that you, apparently, can't stand. Quite frankly it doesn't matter, considering the hypothetical new scenario for the fight. So Sidious is fast enough to get away from Yoda after being disarmed or good enough to distract Yoda (lightning etc.) to move away from the fight to a position of advantage. Both won't do him any good if he has to fight the Jedi Master on equal ground, because there is no superior position that he can escape to. Hence your entire talk is, once again, absolutely pointless.
I'm afraid that this branches out from speculation and into the area of assuming characters' thoughts. That Sidious "felt he couldn't last much longer" has no logical basis, Nai, and so you cannot assume that is how he thought. It is just as plausible that he thought: "Damn, this is not getting me anywhere, let's try something else." The comments on fanboyism are quaint, and that you continue to be exposed to be a bit of a hack would suggest that the drug abuse is beginning to corrupt what few brain cells you have left, Nai.
Using double-standarts much, Escape? You do, of course, realize, that your personal idea about what Sidious was thinking doesn't have a logical basis either. Oh wait. Let me put that in other words. Your opinion about his thoughts has no basis at all, while I do have the RotS Script on my side, stating that Yoda almost made Sidious fall over the edge of the Podium and disarmed him. That would, of course, mean that "Huh. I don't have a weapon to continue the fight!" seems to be the more likely thought when comparing it to "Oh. This isn't getting me anywhere. Instead of trying to fight that kick-ass Jedi Master with my bare hands, which I, of course, can do, being the uber Sith Lord that I am, I'd rather get away from that lightsaber whirlwind and throw some senate pods at him. That might be fun. Of course I'm not in desperate need to get out of melee range when I'm totally lacking a weapon. It's just an option."
Help is out there, Nai, you need only make one telephone call.
I know. But I'd say it would be pretty lame to call your mommy and tell her that little Escape is wasting far too much of his freetime in front of his PC. You'd probably receive a parental two week internet ban. And I don't want to be the killjoy responsible for little Escape being unable to come out to play with the big guys.
You're right, why bother proving it or supporting the idea, when we can just claim that it is God-given-fact and assume it, anyways. And, let's not bring up the "he ran away, LOLZ!!1!" argument, because if I remember correctly, that is exactly how the fight ended. With Sidious laughing and Yoda scrambling his little green ass across the Senate floor, and then after wards, moaning to Bail Organa how "he failed".
Yes. Why just take what we have as hard evidence? Since the IE 11.2 with Sidious Fanboy Add-On allows us to gloss over the facts for another three years, until we reach a point when Sidious wasn't even scared in that situation but, being a sadist, he just wanted to make Yoda think he can possible win that fight when he could, in reality, have destroyed him with a little snap of his fingers, there is no logical reason for us to accept that Sidious was, in fact, scared.
Of course we can just ignore the fact how experiencing "the full power of the Dark Side" (according to Sidious) does result in Yoda lying on the ground for the astonighing time of ten seconds. What a cunning demonstration of power. Especially when the guy who unleashed that "ULTIMATE POWER!!!!!!!" (Sidious again) at Yoda goes "The Jedi Order is no more" five seconds later. Just to have his ass thrown across the room by the Grand Master of the said Order. And of course the Sith Lord wouldn't use his chance to end his work which he planned such a long time but instead – run away. Because he has to save his ass.
Logic, anybody?
Mind you people. Little Escape wants to tell us that it's actually a smart idea to try and run away with a armed and dangerous opponent, who wants to kill you, right on your back. And you will of course attempt that great escape through a small corridor, that doesn't offer you any possibility to outmanouver your opponent or get away from him. Doesn't that sound smart? See. Every person with the ability to apply some logical reasoning to that situation would actually have to claim that, after experiencing Yoda's power first hand, Sidious was scared to death. Actually scared enough to try and run, which would have allowed Yoda to force rape him from behind or simply throw his lightsaber right through the Sith Lords body. The only thing that would make the situation more clear would be a big, blinking sign saying "PANIC!" on Sidious forehead. Yet despite of that, Escape is trying to feed us the idea, that this reaction was another cunning, rational and well thought-out plan by the mastermind of the Dark Side. And that's what Escape likes to call "being objective".
I can take things out of context, too, Nai, and despite the fact that your expertise in that particular area well exceeds mine, it's not to your advantage to continue.
Hell. Yes, Sir. I'm taking so many things out of context here. Which can be seen as I type down the entire context right next to the stuff I'm taking out of context. Sometimes I develop the idea you're actually stupid enough to get run over by a parking car.
Nai, these little one liners are ridiculous. We've gone to the obligatory "Wow, Escape [x15000]" to greetings? What has EoD done to your ability to convey skilled sarcasm?
Ah. We're back at the famous EoD bashing. The last hope of our little KMC Steve Urkle. "I don't have an argument so I'll rather try to throw some shit at EoD, because the people there don't show any respect for small fries who are keen in flaming their admins." And just when you think that Gideon can't simply go down another level, you spot him digging around with a shovel.
By the way, Escape. This is the third time you come up with the same "funny" sentence. Is that the limit of your creativity? Especially funny when it's typed down while trying to attack your opponents versatility in terms of funny insults. Does it hurt much, shooting in your own foot all the time?
He always brings his hands up near his upper chest and face, Janus. Likewise, we clearly saw from the trajectory of the lightning that that is where Sidious was aiming for. Can it be that Sidious really didn't pull a sneak attack on Yoda and lifted his hands rather slowly, punctuating with the obligatory evil monologue, but Yoda's head (like Sidious's own with the telekinetic push) was up his ass and he (you'll pardon me for saying this) "paid the price for [his] lack of vision"?
Ah. Now I see, where you're problem is. Your thinking that I'm Janus. Okay. I see. Your halluzinations are getting worse. But back to the actual topic: We are perfectly aware of the fact that even broad blasts of Sith Lightning, no matter where they are aimed, can be absorbed. Yoda was able to draw Dooku's lightning to his right hand, as we all remember. Obi-Wan was apparently able (same with Mace Windu) to have lightning bolts just focusing on his lightsaber. So I wonder why suddenly it does matter where the user of Sith Lightning actually aims the bolts at.
See. I don't know what Yoda was thinking, Escape. Fact is that he didn't put his cane down or take any defencive stance. Both things he does when engaging Dooku in the force duel in AotC. One might wonder why. Either he didn't expect an attack like that or he simply wasn't prepared for it. It doesn't matter because none of that will happen in a fight on equal ground – which is what we're discussing here, just to remind you again. We're not applying movie elements to the versus fight. They won't walk towards each other, exchanging comments on how they will kill each other. They will simply start to fight. Fully prepared.
Speculation without basis. But, we know, old habits die hard. You're excused.
Yup. Keep up talking without having anything to say. Like always, Escape. You're excused, too.
This just in: Nai Fohl is attempting to make a logical deduction. In other news, hell just froze over.
Think I have to janus (verb) myself out of the situation.
Translation: I don't have anything to say about the situation, but I simply want to have my favourite character getting away from the fight without losing his lightsaber. I will keep up making some ridiculous comments about any possible explanation, because this way I can avoid posting my own vision of what happened. I'd absolutely refuse to say what I'm thinking myself, because that will result in the unpleasent situation, in which my fanboy vision of what happend off-screen, will be grinded into tiny little pieces. I'd rather scream "BULLSHIT" when the stuff I'm actually thinking is defeated and can claim to win the debate because of not making a point. Fool-proof, that is.
...But it is your contention that Sidious, being the inferior duelist and Force user, managed to evade and/or overpowered a fully armed Yoda to escape to the far away Senate pods? Maybe I should let you argue this for me.
Nope. Actually Yoda, as the RotS Script claims, may have attacked Sidious in a fashion that made Sidious almost go over the edge and lose his weapon. A situation in which Sidious recovered with a fast lightning blast, distracting Yoda who decides to rather keep his lightsaber in hand then using both hands to redirect the lightning and therefore jumps away from the podium. If that counts as "overpowered" in your Sidious fanboy realm (where getting disarmed serves to glorify Sidious because he doesn't drop down on the ground dead instantly) – so be it.
Once again, Nai, the explanation your offering is illogical and serves, despite your intent, only to aggrandize Sidious. As far as the screenplay is concerned, Sidious was disarmed, but the circumstances around the fight (Yoda letting Sidious go, for no reason) is utter crap, as well as contradicted by the movie, novelization, and supplementary sources.
Where is Yoda "letting Sidious go"? In the script Sidious gets disarmed and then uses force lightning. Yoda deflects it and then jumps away from the Podium. Illogical? Well. From a certain point of view this might be the case. On the other handside Yoda might have just decided to jump away from the podium instead of dropping his lightsaber (we know that he needs both hands to stop Sidious lightning effectively), which he apparently keeps close enough to ignited it from time to time even in the pod throwing sequence.
But I wonder where the movie contradicts the idea that something like the script says has happened. If I may remind you: We only see Yoda comes flying in from the direction of the Podium. But we don't see him jumping away from the Podium exactly and every jump somebody would do to the higher ranks in the rotunda would technically come from the direction of the podium. The novelization even contradicts the movie, being based on an outdated script. Hardly the source you want to use. And supplementary sources? I'd really love to see where those sources say anything about stuff happening off-screen, Escape. Quotes please.
Where the hell do you get those calculations, Nai? Sidious is a small, adult male and you're suggesting that he is eight times the weight of Yoda?
Excuse me, Escape. May I remind you that Yoda's hight is 0.66 metres. A newborn child in average has a height of 0.5 metres and a weight of 2.5 to 4.0 kilogramm. You can feel free to come up with an educated guess on how much increase in weight a size increase of 15 centrimetres would provide. And notice how I was clearly guessing, Escape.
Not that it matters since Sidious – try to argue it – weighs several times more than Yoda does hence he doesn't get blasted away as far as the Jedi Master. Which was the entire point here. You can't even agree with that?
Prove that he was pushing Sidious back. The lightning coil, once again, was no where near Sidious when it detonated. Prove that Sidious, obviously more familiar with the effects of Force lightning than Yoda, did not predict the coming explosion and attempt to lean away from its full force. Likewise, prove that the height and weight factored in as an advantage with the metaphysical Force lightning, since -- when Yoda pushed the coil back -- it stopped directly in the middle before it detonated. Yoda didn't fling the lightning back to Sidious, much as you try to portray otherwise.
Oh my, Escape. Arguing against the facts again?
Here you have the moment of the explosion, Escape. Isn't it nice how Sidious is "nowhere near" to it? Yes. That extreme distance...Obviously Sidious walked towards Yoda across the entire distance of the pod (which can even be seen in the movie) until he reached a point where he was not father away from the detonation than Yoda.
For the physical aspects you can once again take a look on that picture, Escape. Yoda is visibly leaning forwards to the explosion while Sidious is, also visible, leaning backwards (look at his upper body and head). Before Yoda started pushing that situation was exactly the other way around. Sidious walked forward to him and then he also leaned forward towards the Jedi Master. So either there is a physical component factored in or they're just performing a nice show for the audience.
And of course the most brilliant thing is to come up with the idea that Sidious was leaning backwards in an attempt to get away from it's full force. Because, Escape, putting up some resistance against a force X (example: Leaning your own weight against it) will ultimately result in not getting influenced by said force as much as if putting up no defence against it. And aside of that: Why the hell should Sidious walk across the entire pod, closer and closer to Yoda, if he was aware of what might happen, just to "lean away" in the right moment? Had he known that something like that could have happened he wouldn't have closed the distance.
He hurled pods over his head in direct defiance of gravity to gain momentum. Multiple pods. Without visible effort. Logic concludes that he possessed the power to stop that pod, especially with gravity on his side.
No, Escape. In this case logic only dictates that he can stop those pods if he doesn't have a Jedi Grand Master pushing them right into his face. As Yoda was still standing down there with his arms up, he was most likely pushing the pod constantly, meaning a attempt of Sidious to catch it would have resulted in a direct force contest. If Sidious would have been able to stop the pod as easy as Yoda did (even easier with gravity on his side) he should have tried that instead of sacrificing the higher ground. I don't see any logical explantion for Sidious dodging the pod with the exception that he wasn't able to stop it.
To assume that stopping the pod and throwing it back down at Yoda "was getting him nowehere" (your favourite sentence nowadays) is stupid. If the two where, as you claim, equal in terms of force powers, he should have been able to overpower Yoda in that situation (gravity on his side) and crush the Jedi Master with that pod. Instead he decides to jump away, sacrificing the superior position he had and wasting a chance to defeat his opponent. Reason?
You have yet to prove that the position, the center of the podium, was disadvantageous to Yoda, and you're not in a position to say, without a shadow of a doubt, that he "decided he can't stand Yoda's assault any longer".
Done, my friend. And aside of that I don't have to proof anything "without a shadow of a doubt". If you want to make a case for Sidious, you are the one that has to get rid of the RotS Script claiming that Yoda disarmed the Dark Lord and explain how and why Sidious did decide to get away from the confrontation with the Jedi Master. As you've failed to do both so far and, instead, just tossed your nice little idea into the discussion which, unlike mine, is not included in a source written by George Lucas himself, you may want to concede the point.
Why don't you go ahead and post the entire excerpt of the fight that the screenplay documents? Really, if you want, Nai, I can go ahead and post statements from the novelization, which is as much pro-Sidious as the screenplay is pro-Yoda, and being on the same plateau of canon (with Stover's own assurances that everything in the novel is there because Lucas wanted it to be), and you'll be on a one man destination to the town of Nowhere, population 01.
Cute, Escape. But you are, as always, wrong considering the level of canon. The movies and the scripts are G-Canon as they are coming from Lucas himself. The Novelization is not. It's a C-Canon source containing G-Canon elements. Everything that is not shown in the movie but contained in the novel is C-Canon.
So I have the G-Canon source claiming that Yoda is superior and you have the C-Canon source claiming that Sidious is superior and more C-Canon (at best) sources stating that those two opponents where equal in a situation where one of them did always have a position of advantage. So if you want to turn that discussion into discussing the canon-level of the sources, I'd win instantly. Nice way sinking the Escape-fanboy-Titanic once more trying to crush the iceberg known as logic.
Well, this was entertaining, but you haven't proved a bit of the above. Likewise, the little "recovery" point is laughable. Sidious was hanging on the ledge, trying to pull himself up. Yoda wasn't in such a position. You'd have to prove that Sidious would recover slower from such a fall. Really, Nai, you should leave this to Lord Darkstar. Because with each new addition to this debate, those arguing pro-Yoda are failing.
Funny. Now your great force user Sidious has problems in pulling himself up? When Padawan Kenobi, in a similar situation (while having a Sith Lord trying to hack his hands off right above him) was capable of doing a force aided leap out of said situation while force pulling a lightsaber through the air at the same moment. Is TPM Kenobi more powerful than RotS Sidious now, Escape? Brilliant.
And I'd really love to see how Sidious would look after dropping down around 30 metres twice in the time-span of 10 seconds. One might think that he was not so keen to try and let go (possibly slowering his fall with his force powers) to finish Yoda off on the ground. I guess he had a good reason to desperately grap on that pod, hmm?
Go into exile, you must.
For sure. As the guy who "goes in the Exile" is the one that finally wins. So thanks for admitting that you're totally wrong anyway and just keep up the funny "debate" because...well...you had too much free-time.
And until we meet again, here I have nice little movie showing what really happened at the end of the duel between Yoda and Sidious
CLICK ME
This will be the final time I post this, Nai, so unless you want to waste more of your time, I'd suggest that you memorize it:
Originally posted by Gideon
Taking into consideration the sheer amount of opposition and thinking about it reflectively, I suppose there is no way to conclude that I'm the one who has come to the right conclusion, I suppose I'm just not seeing something. I'm going to concede the argument without quarter or objection.
...Essentially, I have no intention of resuming this debate, hence the concession. Despite your best efforts, you won't be baiting me back into it or mocking me in an attempt to lure me back in under the pretense of defending my ego; I might be a narcissist, but it's really not that fragile. The only way that I will resume this is a discussion, and since you're historically not keen on anything excluding insults and flame wars, I doubt it will happen any time soon. I'm appalled at the way I have been treated and at the way I've been treating everyone else. That said, I will correct you on a few things not directly related to this argument.
Originally posted by Borborad
Yoda was able to outmanouver three of the Orders best combatants (among them a person that was almost on par with Mace Windu in terms of lightsaber skill, namely Depa Billaba) without even holding a lightsaber in hand. I'd say Sidious' demonstration of lightsaber skill (which was, as I may remind you, more sucessful due to Sidious speed aka Dark Side mastery than a result of his skill in handling his weapon) pales in comparison.
Pales in comparison? Not unless one wishes to take both scenarios out of context. Darth Sidious engaged Masters Windu, Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar in a lightsaber duel whereas the situation mentioned by Darsha Assant was only a demonstration. Sidious engaged and killed Tinn and Kolar each with a single stroke of his lightsaber and proceeded to kill Fisto while simultaneously engaging Windu, all of this in less than twenty seconds. Meanwhile, Yoda was unarmed and facing Depa, Plo Koon, and Tinn. They all three attempted to attack him but failed to do so, and Assant viewed that didn't seem to "move more than a meter or so"; that said, there was no implication or establishment of time or how long it took, nor unlike Sidious, did Yoda actually defeat (much less kill) his opponents. So, what can be discerned is that Sidious faced four armed Jedi Masters (who were ultimately more powerful and more numerous than the ones attacking Yoda) who intended to engage him in combat with the intent to kill if necessary. He defeated two of them near instantly and killed a third while simultaneously fighting with someone who is Depa's superior. You cannot compare the two situations with any credibility. All that they have in common is that both Yoda and Sidious were much faster than their opponents. The lesson, by the way, of Yoda's demonstration is that "knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique".
Cute, Escape. But you are, as always, wrong considering the level of canon. The movies and the scripts are G-Canon as they are coming from Lucas himself. The Novelization is not. It's a C-Canon source containing G-Canon elements. Everything that is not shown in the movie but contained in the novel is C-Canon.So I have the G-Canon source claiming that Yoda is superior and you have the C-Canon source claiming that Sidious is superior and more C-Canon (at best) sources stating that those two opponents where equal in a situation where one of them did always have a position of advantage. So if you want to turn that discussion into discussing the canon-level of the sources, I'd win instantly. Nice way sinking the Escape-fanboy-Titanic once more trying to crush the iceberg known as logic
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon
Regular novels are C-canon, Nai. Movie novelizations are G-canon, according to Stover, everything in the novelization was in per Lucas's directive.
For sure. As the guy who "goes in the Exile" is the one that finally wins. So thanks for admitting that you're totally wrong anyway and just keep up the funny "debate" because...well...you had too much free-time.
If you'd like to associate the Emperor's death as a direct result of Yoda, sure. Indirect at best. Meanwhile, one ruled the galaxy for twenty years in prestige and would later return and reconquer it in less than a year. But, if it helps your argument, go right ahead.
As far as the too might free-time comment, you're the one who made a multi-post rebuttal to a person whom you knew had conceded the argument.
Not your best.
Originally posted by Gideon
...Essentially, I have no intention of resuming this debate, hence the concession. Despite your best efforts, you won't be baiting me back into it or mocking me in an attempt to lure me back in under the pretense of defending my ego; I might be a narcissist, but it's really not that fragile. The only way that I will resume this is a discussion, and since you're historically not keen on anything excluding insults and flame wars, I doubt it will happen any time soon. I'm appalled at the way I have been treated and at the way I've been treating everyone else. That said, I will correct you on a few things not directly related to this argument.
Stop lying, Escape.
It's you that blocks any real "discussion" here because you apparently don't want to accept the parameters (equal ground, nowhere to run / fall) for this rematch. And the fun is, that you stated that yourself:
Originally posted by Gideon
Taking into consideration the sheer amount of opposition and thinking about it reflectively, I suppose there is no way to conclude that I'm the one who has come to the right conclusion, I suppose I'm just not seeing something. I'm going to concede the argument without quarter or objection.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No escape, you are still right, but people are making assumptions as to what would happen on even ground, that's all.
Originally posted by Gideon
I know. That's what I meant.
Notice. Apparently you're the only person around here, that can participate in discussion in a way that makes sense (according to your own views) while totally ignoring the idea behind the thread. You don't want to discuss anything because people are making assumptions what would happen on equal ground - when this is the entire topic of the thread. Mind you: That's the same ignorance that got you banned from EoD, where you also happily ignored the postings of a threadstarted and then flamed the admin who pointed that out three times.
Pales in comparison? Not unless one wishes to take both scenarios out of context.
And once more the great Escape is trying to undermine characters. Context?
"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."
And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.
Yoda: Was actually attacked by three combatants and avoided them without any effort while being unarmed.
Sidious in turn. May I remind you, dear Escape, that two of the four Jedi coming to arrest him were cut down by him before they even moved (does that belong into the "context" department?) so he hardly "fought" four Jedi, but technically just two of them. And I also didn't see him avoiding Mace Windu (who would be compareable to Depa Billaba) easily, which was what Yoda did, while having two other people attacking him simultaneously.
I, of course, could also point to the little sequence where Yoda and Obi-Wan fight their way into the Jedi temple. Yoda deflects more than 40 blaster bolts in less than 3 seconds, aimed at him by Clone Troopers who keep firing from 7 different ankles. Apparently his sheer saber defence even trumps that of Obi-Wan.
And it's nice, talking about context, how you willfully ignore my reason to bring that point up.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CanonRegular novels are C-canon, Nai. Movie novelizations are G-canon, according to Stover, everything in the novelization was in per Lucas's directive.
And again, Escape isn't able or willing to do his homework. Can you read Escape? Quoting from your own link:
"Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon."
Ingenious, Escape. That's exactly what I said before. And it doesn't matter what Lucas said when Stover was writing the novel. Unless Lucas did dictate it (which you can't proof) everything not contained in the movie isn't G-Canon. The script that Lucas himself has written is. And since nothing contradicts the version the script offers...
Aside of that, Escape. If you want to go "Lucas approved = G-Canon", which is pretty much, what you attempt here, than this would also be true for the CW Cartoon series. I'd like to see Sidious fighting the CW version of Yoda...
If you'd like to associate the Emperor's death as a direct result of Yoda, sure. Indirect at best. Meanwhile, one ruled the galaxy for twenty years in prestige and would later return and reconquer it in less than a year. But, if it helps your argument, go right ahead.
Lmao, Escape.
You did of course notice, that this had actually nothing to do with this argument here, right? But since I don't want to spoil the fun: The guy who reigned the Galaxy, died, reconquered it later was then again defeated by two of Yoda's students - this time forever. So...
As far as the too might free-time comment, you're the one who made a multi-post rebuttal to a person whom you knew had conceded the argument.
Yes, Escape. As you might have noticed, I was replying to a series of postings that you made 4 days ago. The reason for that, actually, was that I didn't have enough free-time during that days and typed the stuff down in a word file without even looking into this forum (You know...adults, unlike you, have jobs and a social life).
Not your best.
And still too good for you. Sad.
well, after nine pages of this, i think i'm going to throw out there i think Yoda would win. I could repost some of the stuff from the other 9 pages as to why, but in the end, it'd just be repetitive. After considering everythign that you all already know, IMO, yoda comes out on top. And that is what this boilis down to: Your opinion based on the info we have. Some people need to learn to agree to disagree. lol.
Originally posted by Borborad
Stop lying, Escape.
One can't very well stop something that one hasn't begun. I would be hesitant about the baiting, Nai, as Captain REX has already locked one thread because of it. I've stopped and have no intention of continuing; it would be in the best interest of your account to do the same.
It's you that blocks any real "discussion" here because you apparently don't want to accept the parameters (equal ground, nowhere to run / fall) for this rematch. And the fun is, that you stated that yourself:
You seem to have this habit of hypothesizing as to the nature of your opponent's mindset and then passing judgment as if you're omniscient. That said, feel free to continue speculating as to the reason why I conceded.
Notice. Apparently you're the only person around here, that can participate in discussion in a way that makes sense (according to your own views) while totally ignoring the idea behind the thread. You don't want to discuss anything because people are making assumptions what would happen on equal ground - when this is the entire topic of the thread. Mind you: That's the same ignorance that got you banned from EoD, where you also happily ignored the postings of a threadstarted and then flamed the admin who pointed that out three times.
I conceded because of the overwhelming amount of opposition. Every single person on this thread has disagreed with the opinion I share, and so I concede based on the idea that they're seeing a truth that I don't. If I truly refused the parameters of the fight, I would have continued to argue in an unrelenting, uncompromising fashion. My mindset really isn't up for debate, Nai.
And once more the great Escape is trying to undermine characters. Context?
Amusing. One of us doesn't fabricate statements such as "Dooku believed Yoda could annihilate Sidious within the blink of an eye!" and "Sidious himself admitted inferiority to Yoda!" As with the baiting, it's in the best interest of your credibility to not try to credit your own behavior to other people.
Yoda: Was actually attacked by three combatants and avoided them without any effort while being unarmed.
How do you know that Yoda avoided them "without any effort"? Does the passage state as much? That Yoda isn't exactly notorious for his stamina and relies completely on the Force for any true mobility is testament to that much of what he does requires effort of some kind. Furthermore, were the combatants armed? Were they attacking to kill? Though demonstrations such as this are impressive, they're hardly comparable to real world combat and imminent danger.
Sidious in turn. May I remind you, dear Escape, that two of the four Jedi coming to arrest him were cut down by him before they even moved (does that belong into the "context" department?) so he hardly "fought" four Jedi,
While I appreciate the nitpicking, all four swordsmen were fully armed and prepared for an attack by the Sith Lord. That he cut them down before they could react does not mean that they weren't "in a fight" -- a fight does not require equilibrium between opponents -- this is further supplemented by George Lucas's own directive that one has to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine, which speaks to the fact that his abilities were well above the swordsmen who confronted him, hence how easily he brought them down.
And I also didn't see him avoiding Mace Windu (who would be compareable to Depa Billaba) easily, which was what Yoda did, while having two other people attacking him simultaneously.
No, you saw him engage Windu and Fisto simultaneously, and Windu's prodigious skill wasn't enough to overwhelm the Sith Lord even with the assistance of a talented duelist such as Fisto working in tandem, and was driven back into the main office. It was clear that Sidious more than dominated his opponents. Furthermore, please provide the statement that confirms the ease with which Yoda avoided his enemies (if you're referring to "his tread slow and measured", please note that that was how Darsha herself viewed Yoda) and the length of time in which it took.
I, of course, could also point to the little sequence where Yoda and Obi-Wan fight their way into the Jedi temple. Yoda deflects more than 40 blaster bolts in less than 3 seconds, aimed at him by Clone Troopers who keep firing from 7 different ankles. Apparently his sheer saber defence even trumps that of Obi-Wan.
How so? Was Obi-Wan's defense breached by blaster bolts?
And it's nice, talking about context, how you willfully ignore my reason to bring that point up.
I've already informed you that I've conceded the argument, and until you intend to discuss it civilly, I have no further use in debating it.
And again, Escape isn't able or willing to do his homework. Can you read Escape? Quoting from your own link:
Indeed I can.
"Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon."
I direct your attention to the following: "Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon", to which Lightsnake has informed me has been debated on EoD with you personally. An interview, apparently, revealed that all within the novelization was included so as per Lucas's instruction. Would you like me to include a snide remark about one's inability to do one's homework?
Ingenious, Escape. That's exactly what I said before. And it doesn't matter what Lucas said when Stover was writing the novel. Unless Lucas did dictate it (which you can't proof) everything not contained in the movie isn't G-Canon. The script that Lucas himself has written is. And since nothing contradicts the version the script offers...
I can and did, actually. According to Lightsnake, he has debated this with you personally on EoD, and Stover revealed that everything in the novelization was included as per Lucas's personal directive.
Aside of that, Escape. If you want to go "Lucas approved = G-Canon", which is pretty much, what you attempt here, than this would also be true for the CW Cartoon series. I'd like to see Sidious fighting the CW version of Yoda...
I never said that (though, of course, given Lucas's own words that this is how he imagined true Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars series, we can also associate the enhancement of powers to Sidious as well, as well as Leeland Chee's instruction that feats in the EU do not contradict those in the movies), but I appreciate the lack of context with which you assert my statements.
Lmao, Escape.
You did of course notice, that this had actually nothing to do with this argument here, right?
You were the one who originally posted it, were you not? Perhaps you might ought to lecture those when you do not share guilt. It would add a bit of credibility to the sermons.
But since I don't want to spoil the fun: The guy who reigned the Galaxy, died, reconquered it later was then again defeated by two of Yoda's students - this time forever.
Actually, Han Solo shot the dying Palpatine in the back. Brand intercepted his spirit, contained it, and waited as "the Force and all the Jedi who came before us" consigned Palpatine to oblivion for eternity. A feat, most decisively, not part of Yoda's direct influence or grand scheme. Not that it matters, because we can continue on how Palpatine's revified regime now controls the galaxy, and once more, the Jedi have been rendered void.
So...
...You should stick to the topic?
Yes, Escape. As you might have noticed, I was replying to a series of postings that you made 4 days ago. The reason for that, actually, was that I didn't have enough free-time during that days and typed the stuff down in a word file without even looking into this forum (You know...adults, unlike you, have jobs and a social life).
Actually, Nai, you responded to a series of posts several days after they were made (we can debate what you were actually doing while you were off; you can claim to have a 'social life', and I can be as petty as you and point out that you still make time in your schedule to come visit me, despite being an uber twentysomething with a job and [apparently] demanding social life -- perhaps I could even toss in several jabs inquiring on how demanding imaginary friends can be -- and otherwise rendering all of your own insults rather void) with the prior knowledge that I had conceded the argument. You clearly felt either threatened or interested in my argument (which you ridicule) to respond and put effort into an articulate response. So either you are a treasure trove of numerous psychological disabilities, including sadism and a little dabbling in shadenfreude, or you clearly don't have as much demands in life as you would like to imply and are clearly interested in what I have to say.
Though you won't listen, it might be best for you simply to stick purely to the argument and leave the insults and jabs for someone who is unable to cope and respond in kind?
And still too good for you. Sad.
I'm aware of where all this time has been spent. Four days of sharpening your wit for the trials to come? Your effort is finally paying off. Meanwhile, if you'd like to continue this little debate -- if it means that much to you -- you will dispense with any and all insults and we will have a calm discussion. Otherwise? You needn't respond further (but I'm betting you will).