Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's not so much as the face, but the sounds coming from his mouth. If you turn up the volume loud you'll hear them. They sounded like pain, unless I'm smoking something.
And now you're relying on conclusions based solely from sounds, Darth Sexy? Isn't that Janus's line of reasoning that led to something along the lines of: "Omg! Sidz usez teh pods anti-grav features, including ze one sent at Yoda, but Yoda turns it off cuz he's 2 cool 2 use it!!one!"? Is it your contention (I'm using that word a hell of a lot) that people who are afraid do not make noises or whimpers? Likewise, is it your contention that Sidious is obviously in pain despite no suggestion of evidence that would lead one to conclude as much?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No no Escape, I said it's what it SOUNDS like, not what it is. Notice how I'm not making a foregone conclusion, instead electing to voice an opinion.
That's precisely the point. I'm all for sharing opinions, but why voice an observation in the midst of a debate that clearly defies logic and canon? Especially when it gives people such as Nai opportunities to rehash the same things with the same words, draining more of my patience due to the constant demand to repeat everything I say with not only Nai, but Lord Darkstar and Janus.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Point taken. Wouldn't it be logical to conclude that when Yoda stopped and pushed Sidious' lightning back at him, Sidious was in a great deal of pain, albeit for a short time?
My friend, take this for what it's worth (even if it isn't much), but I'm about to make an observation that is truly void of insult or ill intent. It seems to me that you're, for some reason, very keen on the conclusion that the Emperor was in pain sometime throughout this confrontation. For what reason, I can't be sure, but I suspect it's because that we know -- beyond all doubt -- that Yoda himself was in pain.
That said, no. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that the Emperor was in pain during that last portion of the battle concerning the lightning coil. The lightning did not touch him, even when Yoda was pressing back against it. Indeed, he was not struck by any force until the coil detonated. So, unless you have something else to offer why in the world Sidious would be in agony, I see no reason to even entertain the idea.
Well my observation is the fact that the lightning ball was slowly coming back at him and his reaction (in my opinion) was that out of fear and pain. I'm not saying he was in pain the entire fight, just in that one instance, before he quickly recovered. If you explain (again) WHY he wouldn't be in pain then maybe I will understand better.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Well my observation is the fact that the lightning ball was slowly coming back at him and his reaction (in my opinion) was that out of fear and pain. I'm not saying he was in pain the entire fight, just in that one instance, before he quickly recovered. If you explain (again) WHY he wouldn't be in pain then maybe I will understand better.
Darth Sexy, why would he be in pain? Neither the lightning nor the lightning coil touched him; he couldn't have suffered any ill effects or "pain" until after the coil detonated.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I am not an expert on the characteristics of force lightning. The closer the ball was coming towards Sidious, the wider his eyes opened and the more noise he made. It APPEARED to be pain, that's all I am saying.
Neither am I, but the ball did not touch him. The lightning did not touch him. There is no logical reason for him to be in pain. In all seriousness, I don't see what's so hard to understand. Surprise, fear, sure. But pain makes no sense.
I'm going to touch on just two points, and see if they seem like the "most logical" explanation, of who is more powerful in both areas saber combat and force.
1) In the saber combat, ask yourself, in all the star wars movies when did a jedi or sith "ever" tuck there weapon away "in combat"? To me it's "much more logical" to conclude that indeed Sidious was relieved of his blade, as the ROTS script also states.
2) In the Force department, watch the force duel on the pod carefully, and you "will" see that Yoda is deflecting the lightning coil and that it is moving closer to Sidious, thus it is the "most logical" conclusion that Yoda is the superior in the force power department as well, because Sidious was not able to stop Yoda from beginning the deflection, and that is despite the fact that Yoda also starts the lightning coil scene at a disadvantage, with Sidious leaning heavily forward, but by the end it is reversed and Sidious is leaning heavily backwards, obviously being overcome by Yoda.
I suppose two pages of ridiculously articulate points have been lost on some people, but since I'm repeating myself for Darth Sexy, I might as well try it for you, as well.
Originally posted by wolfpack86
I'm going to touch on just two points, and see if they seem like the "most logical" explanation, of who is more powerful in both areas saber combat and force.
Very well. I'm game.
1) In the saber combat, ask yourself, in all the star wars movies when did a jedi or sith "ever" tuck there weapon away "in combat"? To me it's "much more logical" to conclude that indeed Sidious was relieved of his blade, as the ROTS script also states.
The script:
YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.
YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.
YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.
...To me, it's "more logical" that Yoda did not WTFpwn Sidious in combat and then let him escape for no reason. Or does it make sense that the Jedi Master would allow his target and most deadly foe to potentially gain an advantage over him?
2) In the Force department, watch the force duel on the pod carefully, and you "will" see that Yoda is deflecting the lightning coil and that it is moving closer to Sidious, thus it is the "most logical" conclusion that Yoda is the superior in the force power department as well, because Sidious was not able to stop Yoda from beginning the deflection, and that is despite the fact that Yoda also starts the lightning coil scene at a disadvantage, with Sidious leaning heavily forward, but by the end it is reversed and Sidious is leaning heavily backwards, obviously being overcome by Yoda.
Sidious inferior because he can't stop Yoda from deflecting his bolts? I suppose Yoda is inferior to Dooku because he can't stop Dooku from generating Force lightning. What kind of logic is that? The lightning coil starts just short of Yoda's fingertips, he collects his energy and pushes it back towards Sidious; it doesn't strike the Sith Lord or explode in his face, but rather halts in between them both before it detonates. He doesn't exactly make Sidious eat it or anything. Likewise, prove Sidious wasn't leaning back to try to avoid being blasted further by the explosion that was about to come.
The idea Yoda disarmed Sidious is not contradicted in the movie. It's the same as saying because a person did not deny something he is accused of, it's true.
There is no denying large gaps in the two fights of the movies are shown as we switch from Anakin/Obi-Wan to Palpatine/Yoda. Since the movie itself does not say or show that Palpatine was not disamred by Yoda, the claim that he was disarmed should be taken as fact as no actual evidence contradicts it.
Originally posted by Luminatus
The idea Yoda disarmed Sidious is not contradicted in the movie. It's the same as saying because a person did not deny something he is accused of, it's true.
There is no denying large gaps in the two fights of the movies are shown as we switch from Anakin/Obi-Wan to Palpatine/Yoda. Since the movie itself does not say or show that Palpatine was not disamred by Yoda, the claim that he was disarmed should be taken as fact as no actual evidence contradicts it.
No one is suggesting that Palpatine being disarmed is not a possibility, but what I quoted is from the screenplay, verbatim. If we accept that version of the truth, Yoda was about to kill Palpatine, but then let the Dark Lord escape for no reason.
Sidious inferior because he can't stop Yoda from deflecting his bolts? I suppose Yoda is inferior to Dooku because he can't stop Dooku from generating Force lightning. What kind of logic is that? The lightning coil starts just short of Yoda's fingertips, he collects his energy and pushes it back towards Sidious; it doesn't strike the Sith Lord or explode in his face, but rather halts in between them both before it detonates. He doesn't exactly make Sidious eat it or anything. Likewise, prove Sidious wasn't leaning back to try to avoid being blasted further by the explosion that was about to come. [/B]
That is completely different, Yoda isn't going to stop force powers before they happen, he stops the force power when he reacts to it. The fact that Sidious could not "overwhelm" Yoda, is evidence that at the very least he is not capable of doing so in the force, but also Yoda "was able" to resist Sidious, and begin to push the force coil back towards him. Ask yourself this, if the lightning coil had not detonated, how do you think the coil scene would have ended, being as Yoda "was" pushing it back in Sidious's direction? As far as Sidious leaning back, I am again trying to come to what I think is the "most logical" explanation for why he was doing so, and I think it's because he was being overwhelmed by Yoda.
Originally posted by wolfpack86
That is completely different, Yoda isn't going to stop force powers before they happen, he stops the force power when he reacts to it.
It's not completely different. Just as Yoda is unable to intercept and prevent Force powers from being activated, Sidious is unable to intercept and prevent Yoda from attempting to deflect (a Force power)his Sith lightning.
The fact that Sidious could not "overwhelm" Yoda, is evidence that at the very least he is not capable of doing so in the force,
Sidious was unable to overwhelm Yoda in a Force contest regarding a specific Force power that Yoda happens to have a natural defense against.
but also Yoda "was able" to resist Sidious, and begin to push the force coil back towards him.
It was impressive that Yoda was able to deflect Sidious's lightning and begin to push the lightning coil back in the Sith Lord's direction, but that does not conclude superior Force ability.
Ask yourself this, if the lightning coil had not detonated, how do you think the coil scene would have ended, being as Yoda "was" pushing it back in Sidious's direction?
No idea, because before the coil detonated, it stopped.
As far as Sidious leaning back, I am again trying to come to what I think is the "most logical" explanation for why he was doing so, and I think it's because he was being overwhelmed by Yoda.
And if you had a measure of evidence to support it, I submit and concede the point. But every single source I have seen has contradicted the point that Janus, Nai Fohl, and Lord Darkstar wish to conclude:
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Yoda barely escaped offworld.
-- the New Essential Chronology, page 84.
Yoda finds the Emperor in the holding office of the Grand Convocation Chamber of the Galactic Senate. Palpatine uses both his lightsaber and Sith lightning to attack Yoda, who is ultimately forced to retreat.
-- the Ultimate Visual Guide, page 61.
In his contest with Sidious, Yoda realizes he is overmatched and deserts the fight.
-- the Complete Visual Dictionary, page 161.
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.
-- the official databank, 'Yoda' profile.