Yoda vs. Sidious rematch (no where to fall)

...isn't a personal attack... If you would please post examples of when I have said otherwise, now would be the time.[/quote
Well this is simple, just scroll up the page, you will find this:

Originally posted by Gideon

I was wondering why I didn't get a timely response from you, Janus, and I now see why: you spent all of this time cooking up a deliciously hilarious series of posts and designing a new signature. I don't know if I can declare that as time well spent, however, because if you exclude the humor, it doesn't really offer anything new. You spent all this time creating funny, mocking translations of the points that I had made, and yet all the while, you refuse to continue the debate. On a personal note, I am honored that I, a mere sixteen-year-old boy, have managed to have such a profound effect on your disposition. You attack me, call me a "fanboy", and attempt to embarrass me? All the while, you must remember that [bold]you're the founder of a dying, ignored forum[/bold] where some of your oldest internet friends secretly think you're remarkably biased, obtuse, and otherwise inept as an administrator. Likewise, every time you've come back to KMC, paying your visits, you always whine and complain why I think the way I do and that I never "offer you sources!!!oneone!11!" -- and yet, when I do this and offer to discuss it, as well as question you about your obsession with Marka Ragnos via PM -- you ignore it.

Really, Janus, you'd think that a twenty-something-year-old man wouldn't be so easily pushed and would have a bit more maturity than a teenaged "fanboy". But as I've told you before, [bold]just when I think you've hit rock bottom, you manage to fall to a lower place.[/bold]

Bravo, Janus. Bravo.

Now, perhaps when you've calmed down and stop getting your underwear in a knot over an online debate, you'd like to continue? I'm waiting and willing.

[quote]Some people have these new inventions that we call "lives". Ergo, they are not at my beck and call 24/7. You should try to pick one of these things up.

As for crawling back to the other forums asking for help... WTF I have not done that and I haven't seen anyone else here posting in favor of this, its just me. SO unless you happen to be seeing my posts as done by different people here, I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about.

As for this:

Did I say that the entire place is oppressive? No. But thanks for trying to dodge around that point and sugarcoat it. What are you, EoD's fairy godmother? You want to discuss this with me or "bash" me, you go right ahead. But putting a spin on shit, outright lying, and then scrambling back trying to cover your ass once you've been exposed is not the way to do it. I suppose it's too difficult for you to actually be honest, so eager are you to avenge Janus's noble name?

Get over yourself. And while you're at it, you might want to ask for some more help from your e-buddies. Whatever advice they're giving you isn't working.

I'll be back later to resume this, assuming you're still keen on it.

All the clowns are coming out today.

This... is it?

Good ol' Darkstar. Count on him to tackle a situation and make it even worse. I give you a remarkable courtesy of five hours to come up with either a reasoned argument or a hilarious rebuttal, and you waste all that time on an unremarkable diatribe that only demonstrates your lack of skill with the quote function? This is a profound disappointment, in my eyes, as my expectations were higher than this.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
And we have entered the bashing the person stage again. Please try something new, oh and for future reference, you are debating in an online forum, bashing someone else doing the same about 'real life 1!!!1' might not be the best thing to do. After all the interwebz iz seri0uz businez!1!

If I may respond with a statement, made by you, on EoD:

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar, who continues to prove how hypocritical a certain group of posters are
Great, I made a post on the KMC thread to Escape or whatever name he goes by now and am currently bashing him. Anyone have some good pictures I can use for this?

We may now make three observations from this:

1.) You clearly have no room to lecture anyone about bashing, and yet you do, ergo, you're a hypocrite (much like some other friends of yours).

2.) You asked for help, an indication that you're not equipped enough to "take me on" all by your lonesome.

3.) Funny pictures, like witty remarks, are in some serious short supply at EoD.

As for crawling back to the other forums asking for help... WTF I have not done that and I haven't seen anyone else here posting in favor of this, its just me. SO unless you happen to be seeing my posts as done by different people here, I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Great, I made a post on the KMC thread to Escape or whatever name he goes by now and am currently bashing him. Anyone have some good pictures I can use for this?

Denial is an ugly, ugly thing.

Actually you did say Janus was a 'petty dictator' one would assume that you were calling the place oppresive, now you seem not to think that. Which one is it?

I suppose it was too much to think that you might put two and two together to get four. I'll translate: even if Janus is a petty dictator, that does not make the entire place oppressive and unappealing. He is but one of the administrators (though I am by no means suggesting that Illustrious is superior to him) and one of the many (but few in comparison to other forums) people who congregate there. People have struck friendships and bonds and, even in the face of a lackluster administration, continue to remain. President Bush is the most disliked and hated president in United States history; the whole population isn't packing up and leaving because of it, are they? No. A little common sense would be nice (odd to use 'Bush' and 'common sense' in a paragraph together).

As for being honest, what are you talking about man? You need to pass whatever it is you're smoking because I sure don't know what you're talking about.

LOL. I'm tempted to profile this. "As for being honest... I sure don't know what you're talking about" is pure, genuine brilliance. I'm very sure that it's not a concept you're familiar with, but I understand that dictionaries have been made online now. Googling a word can lead you to its definition. Who knew? Anyways, once you've learned the definition, I'll point out that you claimed that Antedivulians disagree in a "respectful manner". That is, perhaps, the most tainted ****ing lie I've ever seen. You haven't been respectful. Neither has IKC. Neither has Janus. The only respectful one who has posted as of late is Faunus. If you're going to continue, don't bother lying, otherwise I think it's time for the amateur Antedivulian-wannabes to head back to EoD and send out the big guns if you're hellbent on carrying on this argument.

This... is it?

Good ol' Darkstar. Count on him to tackle a situation and make it even worse. I give you a remarkable courtesy of five hours to come up with either a reasoned argument or a hilarious rebuttal, and you waste all that time on an unremarkable diatribe that only demonstrates your lack of skill with the quote function? This is a profound disappointment, in my eyes, as my expectations were higher than this.

You said that you were not making personal attacks and asked for evidence of where you have said otherwise. I know that in some places you have praised Janus, yet in other cases you described him as:
-a the founder of a dying, ignored forum
-a petty dictator
-someone that has hit rock bottom, and then managed to fall to a lower place

I consider all of those personal attacks, hence the use of the quote bottom to show your own words, as you asked for.

As for the thing about me asking for help, I've already addressed this in a PM but I'll say it again:
I don't consider asking people to search for pictures the same as helping. Wait, before you write off an angry reply, know that I would consider help something more along the lines of giving me lines to say, helping me formulate an arguement etc. I consider pictures simply something funny to add to a post, not the argument of a post which is why I said that. You may view it differently, but that is my view on it.

As to your comment about Janus being petty but the place not oppresive, I consider that a stretch because like you said, he is an admin and plays a huge role in running the place. If he ran it as a dictator, then opposing view would be supressed, which I do not believe happens

As for the comment about being honest, okay that really came out wrong 😮 I can see why you laughed at that, looking back I would as well. What I meant by that is that while what you posted earlier about :

" ****ing with Darth Sexy's usertitle to say "Escape's girlfriend", having threads dedicated to Lightsnake and him "getting owned", doesn't exactly inspire sentiments of an objective, fair administrator."

First, for quite a while I was away from EoD so I am unfamiliar with the story about Darth Sexy. As for the threads about 'bashing people', yeah I can see at first blush that it does not inspire thoughts of an objective person, but honestly it was pointing out flaws in logic that Janus saw and rebuttles that showcase a persons skills or cause laughs. They are not intended to be personal assualts, which is why I posted that I had no idea what you were talking about, we view it differently.

Sorry for escalating this and I hope we can continue in a calm manner

Alright, considering you have mentioned that you did respond to Janus' post and all he did was translate it, I'll have a go at it:

You do seem to bring that up quite a bit anymore, but it doesn't particularly matter. The movie does not show us that Yoda could 'whup Sidious' ass on a neutral setting!!1oneone!!!", and you further must question why -- if that were the case -- does every single supplemental source interpret a much different perspective than your own? Statements aren't thrown out arbitrarily just to screw with the movies, Janus, and it's this lack of acceptance that prevents you from ever making your point. Ultimately, more sources support my argument, and your assertions that the movie clearly expresses yours isn't working.

Proof that these sources back you up. Also, the movies, which Janus did an analysis of, seem to disagree with that and the movies trump all other canon.

Oh, come off it, Janus. People here (for the most part) attempt to make use of the movies, Expanded Universe, and all available sources to arrive at the most logical conclusion. You seem keen on disregarding everything but the movies at this point because everything else contradicts the delusion that Yoda > Sidious. We can go back and forth on this for eternity, Janus, it's your choice. But if you're going to, a little honesty would be nice, instead of the desperate behavior that results from someone who can't stand being proven wrong.

You can bring in the EU all you want but in the case when the movies can be directly analyzed to provide an answer to the question, they trump everything else. Unless you can analyze the lightsaber fight and refute Janus' arguments, the movies seem to indicate that Yoda > Sidious

I conceded that Yoda may have not necessarily been forced out of his position. What you "glossed over" was the fact that Yoda had not breached Sidious's defenses or injured the Dark Lord. But, once again, I never expected you to play fair or be objective in this.

As I've told you before, you'd make an excellent spin doctor. Janus, the only combatant in that duel who expresses pain is Yoda. Sidious expresses exertion, effort, and fear -- but never pain -- and on the flipside, he also expresses immense amusement, something that Yoda never does. If we're going to base this whole argument on the expression that each is wearing, I could argue that Sidious was clearly superior to Yoda because he was laughing his ass off and having a jolly good time, not even capitalizing on the two instances where he could have killed Yoda.

As far as the pod being hurled back to him, all I see is a signature cock of the head, which signifies confusion and perplexity, and then he shakes his head in anger and dives away. No "shitting his pants" expression, though -- once again -- I don't expect you to be either fair nor objective during this. It would make it hard to cement your unsupported argument.

While Yoda may never laugh during the battle, it is hardly an indication of how he feels the battle is going, he is the jedi master, it is hardly in keeping with his personality to laugh in a battle. And while you may say that Yoda was the only person to show pain during the battle, it is also quite clear that Sid was being pushed back during the force lightning bit on the pod and the longer it went on, the more scared he seemed to become.

We also see at the very beginning of the battle, Sid says that he has been looking forward to this for a very long time, Yoda then pushes him across the room onto his head and the next thing we know, Sid is trying to flee, perhaps he realized that he was outmatched?

As for the thing about Sid simply cocking his head, shaking his head and diving out of the way of the pod, that is quite the stretch. Sid was laughing at Yoda before, then sees the pod flying towards him, stares for a second and leaps out of the way. When in the pod, he is looking around, unsure of where Yoda was and the expression on his face is one of confusion and I would say a hint of fear. Comments about an unsupported argument are ironic to say the least when you have direct movie screenshots countering your claims.

As for Sid's facial expression changing often throughout the fight, yeah they did change, and as the fight wore on, the less secure he seemed to get.

No, no, no! Gosh, Janus! The movie shows Palpatine hurl Force lightning at Yoda and the Jedi Master attempt to deflect the lightning -- too late! -- and is overpowered and blasted against the office wall and knocked unconscious. The only way he KO'd himself was because he failed to deflect the lightning.

Oh, and prove that he was without his lightsaber. The movie didn't show it, and since you'd like to disregard everything else, there's no need to bring up the screenplay which says he was disarmed. Of course, even if you did (which I expect you will), I could counter that by either bringing in the novelization or pointing out that since the precise disarming scene does not follow the movie, it is clearly non-canon, meaning the question of Sidious's lightsaber might never be answered.

Excellent, so Sid's lightsaber disappearing is non canon because it contradicts the movie, however the screenshots from said movie that show Yoda winning are invalid due to outside sources that say differently and the outside sources do not directly contradict the movie. Glad we clarified that. Also, if Sid still had his lightsaber, why was it not used in the Senate room, did it run out of energy or was starting to give him a blister and he decied to put it away?

As for the pod, I would argue that Sid was actually blasted farther away than Yoda. If you view the screenshots posted by Janus on page five, we see that Yoda was right on the edge of the pod, with Sid around 1-2 feet away from him, on the same edge of the pod. When the exposion happens, Yoda is pushed back, but enough so that he still grabs onto the edge of the pod by a few inches. Sid on the other hand is blasted to the complete other edge of the pod so that he is holding on to a bit more than Yoda, but was pushed back considerably farther. Since Yoda is far lighter and smaller than Sid, why was Sid pushed farther?

a.) You've yet to prove that Yoda can "overcome" Sidious's lightning.

b.) You've yet to prove that Yoda makes all telekinesis pointless.

c.) You've yet to prove that Sidious was using the anti-gravity systems.

d.) As for his Sith lightning being useless, you "glossed over" that he rendered Yoda unconscious with it during the opening salvo.

QED, Janus.

b) Please see the point where Yoda halts a pod that was flung at him and tosses it back. Sid did not even attempt to stop said pod, why?

c) I haven't listened to the movie to hear the anti-grav so I'm ignoring this

d) And if the lightning at the beginning knocked Yoda out and therefore proves that lightning > Yoda, then in the same vein the push that Yoda used that blew Sid across the room proves that push > Sidious, excellent

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Proof that these sources back you up. Also, the movies, which Janus did an analysis of, seem to disagree with that and the movies trump all other canon.

The official databank, the New Essential Chronology, and the Ultimate Visual Guide all unanimously contradict the idea that Yoda was kicking Sidious's ass. As I've told Janus, these statements and interpretations are not thrown out arbitrarily; that they are not eliminated or retconned by subsequent material seems likely that LFL does not feel that the statements provided are contradicting the movies.

You can bring in the EU all you want but in the case when the movies can be directly analyzed to provide an answer to the question, they trump everything else. Unless you can analyze the lightsaber fight and refute Janus' arguments, the movies seem to indicate that Yoda > Sidious

Essentially, all that Janus has indicated is that Yoda was outpacing Sidious through their lightsaber duel. When the point was posed to him that Yoda was obviously unable to exploit the openings in Sidious's defense, Janus responded with the out-of-universe, sarcastic explanation that it was because the OT could not be rendered obsolete. That does not cut it. Essentially, if we are to take this analysis as fact, Yoda was still unable to break through Sidious's defense.

Alright, so you will not concede that Yoda never breached Sidous' defenses, but what about the screenshots that Janus posted on page three of this thread. In there it shows that Yoda is clearly in control of the lightsaber fight, with Sidious loosing that.

Controlling the fight? Yoda was making all the moves, true, but was gaining absolutely no ground for it. The fight was not moving anywhere, and all Sidious had to do was remain in the center. It's not as though he was herding Sidious down dark corridors and hallways. Once again, to assert that Yoda would "kick Sidious' ass on even ground" is baseless because Janus cannot provide a cogent explanation for why Yoda was unable to breach Sidious's defense. The best that he can prove is that Yoda is a hair's width superior in lightsaber department over a Sith Lord who hasn't practiced with one in over thirteen years.

Also, we run into the problem of what happened to Sidious' lightsaber. Considering it would have been useful to him in the Senate battle, why was it never used?

Janus offered this explanation. And, to you, I pose the question: how would it have been of further use? Outside of close quarters combat, Sidious has no need for a lightsaber.

We know Yoda had his and was using it, considering the best (aka only real) defense against a lightsaber is another lightsaber, where is Sidious'?

There is no canon explanation. I do not exclude the possibility that he was disarmed, but it cannot be proven. It is just as likely that he put it away and opted for long-ranged assault.

The conclusion from this is that at some point, Yoda knocked away Sidious' blade and Sid was forced to flee, resorted to chucking pods.

That conclusion is only valid if either Yoda turned into a completely inept combatant and allowed Sidious to abandon the Chancellor's podium and reach a vast distance away or Sidious, unarmed, managed to overpower and evade a still fully armed Yoda in close quarters. The former is completely out of the question and the latter would only serve to glorify Sidious.

The alternative is that Sid was an idiot who resorted to putting away his weapon in a battle

Actually, no, there is no proof for that. Sidious would be an idiot if he put the lightsaber away during a lightsaber duel, which is not what I have suggested. Sidious would be a self-preserving realist to put his lightsaber away if he came to the conclusion that it was getting him nowhere, and opt for a method of combat that requires putting as much distance from Yoda as humanly possible.

While Yoda may never laugh during the battle, it is hardly an indication of how he feels the battle is going, he is the jedi master, it is hardly in keeping with his personality to laugh in a battle. And while you may say that Yoda was the only person to show pain during the battle, it is also quite clear that Sid was being pushed back during the force lightning bit on the pod and the longer it went on, the more scared he seemed to become.

Darkstar, this is exactly what I'm talking about. My quoted statements clearly address that Sidious "was afraid". That Janus and yourself seem to be keen on reiterating points that I have acknowledged and pointed out on my own accord is absurd. That is why I accuse him of bias. It's not like I'm trying to hide the fact that Sidious was frightened during parts of the duel; so why waste precious time going back over it? Yoda was the only one in the duel to demonstrate extreme pain. That was the point Janus neglected to acknowledge and it was the point I was trying to make.

We also see at the very beginning of the battle, Sid says that he has been looking forward to this for a very long time, Yoda then pushes him across the room onto his head and the next thing we know, Sid is trying to flee, perhaps he realized that he was outmatched?

This is, perhaps, even more absurd. Put things into context, please. First, both Sidious and Yoda went into that fight more than a shade overconfident. Sidious blasts Yoda across the room -- Yoda's futile attempt to block the lightning was overpowered (and one could make a point of the look of "oh shit!" that crossed his own face) -- and knocked unconscious. Rather lackluster for the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, and given Sidious's malignant narcissism and arrogance, it is no surprise that he found the situation amusing. Likewise, when Yoda gave a forceful retaliation, it is then no surprise that Sidious began to question the logistics of a fight. He was facing his titular equal, a Jedi whose sole ambition in life was to end his, and after years of plotting, it would make sense for a Sith (someone bent on self preservation) to look for an escape. So, concluding, it is ridiculous that Sidious magically came to the conclusion that "I am outmatched!!" based on an opening salvo from which he actually dealt the better hand; Yoda knocked Sidious over his desk. Sidious knocked Yoda out.

As for the thing about Sid simply cocking his head, shaking his head and diving out of the way of the pod, that is quite the stretch. Sid was laughing at Yoda before, then sees the pod flying towards him, stares for a second and leaps out of the way. When in the pod, he is looking around, unsure of where Yoda was and the expression on his face is one of confusion and I would say a hint of fear. Comments about an unsupported argument are ironic to say the least when you have direct movie screenshots countering your claims.

I'm going to extend you a courtesy of patience. If you'd like to keep this up, I would suggest not being needlessly sarcastic. You see, you say it yourself: "a hint of fear". Janus said "shitting his pants". There is an ocean of a difference between the two, and when you get sarcastic like this, you leave yourself open to a brutal retaliation. In short: you're not helping his point.

As for Sid's facial expression changing often throughout the fight, yeah they did change, and as the fight wore on, the less secure he seemed to get.

He seemed to fluctuate quite often, the likely result of being an unstable man.

Attempt to deflect the lightning? Is that why he kept his hands on his staff? He was caught off guard, sure a foolish thing to happen, but then we see a few seconds later Sid getting blasted across the room and landing on his head, the first few seconds were anomolies with both sides displaying a clear and noticable advantage over the other, which odd as it seems, appears to come from surprise about the others skills and being off guard.

Reminds me of the time Nai Fohl claimed "Oh, he was trying to cover his eyes!" -- Yoda clearly lifted his hands up as the lightning encroached upon him. Why? To cover his eyes or to try to block it. Which one seems more logical to you?

Excellent, so Sid's lightsaber disappearing is non canon because it contradicts the movie, however the screenshots from said movie that show Yoda winning are invalid due to outside sources that say differently and the outside sources do not directly contradict the movie. Glad we clarified that. Also, if Sid still had his lightsaber, why was it not used in the Senate room, did it run out of energy or was starting to give him a blister and he decied to put it away?

Pardon? Sidious's lightsaber was used in the Senate rotunda. But after the lightsaber duel ended, he was never in a position where it would be advantageous, thus nullifying Janus's attempt to use Occam's Razor. Once again, be mindful of your sarcasm, young padawan.

As for the pod, I would argue that Sid was actually blasted farther away than Yoda. If you view the screenshots posted by Janus on page five, we see that Yoda was right on the edge of the pod, with Sid around 1-2 feet away from him, on the same edge of the pod. When the exposion happens, Yoda is pushed back, but enough so that he still grabs onto the edge of the pod by a few inches. Sid on the other hand is blasted to the complete other edge of the pod so that he is holding on to a bit more than Yoda, but was pushed back considerably farther. Since Yoda is far lighter and smaller than Sid, why was Sid pushed farther?

You're incorrect. When the lightning coil detonated, Yoda and Sidious were flung off of the Senate pod. Sidious grabbed on the railing; Yoda was blasted all the way back into the interior to crash onto the Chancellor's podium. That is the pod you see him gripping. He was knocked away, far farther than Sidious.

a) Please view the movie where Yoda blocks the lightning

a.) Blocking something is not the same as overpowering it. Otherwise, when Sidious blocks Yoda's lightsaber strike, he must obviously be superior with a blade.

b) Please see the point where Yoda halts a pod that was flung at him and tosses it back. Sid did not even attempt to stop said pod, why?

b.) He's demonstrated more than enough power to stop one Senate pod, especially with gravity on his side. Perhaps it was because he felt that it was getting him nowhere?

c) I haven't listened to the movie to hear the anti-grav so I'm ignoring this

c.) The only humming noise is detectable on the last pod, when Sidious throws it and when Yoda throws it back.

d) And if the lightning at the beginning knocked Yoda out and therefore proves that lightning > Yoda, then in the same vein the push that Yoda used that blew Sid across the room proves that push > Sidious, excellent

That doesn't work. If we use your logic, all you've proven is that they're equal, which is really the point I've been arguing for this whole time. Ultimately, in the opening salvo, more damage was done to Yoda than to Sidious. It's irretrievable fact.

Reminds me of the time Nai Fohl claimed "Oh, he was trying to cover his eyes!"

lol 😂

Originally posted by IKP
lol 😂

You might think I'm joking, but he actually said that.

The official databank, the New Essential Chronology, and the Ultimate Visual Guide all unanimously contradict the idea that Yoda was kicking Sidious's ass. As I've told Janus, these statements and interpretations are not thrown out arbitrarily; that they are not eliminated or retconned by subsequent material seems likely that LFL does not feel that the statements provided are contradicting the movies.

Essentially, all that Janus has indicated is that Yoda was outpacing Sidious through their lightsaber duel. When the point was posed to him that Yoda was obviously unable to exploit the openings in Sidious's defense, Janus responded with the out-of-universe, sarcastic explanation that it was because the OT could not be rendered obsolete. That does not cut it. Essentially, if we are to take this analysis as fact, Yoda was still unable to break through Sidious's defense.

Controlling the fight? Yoda was making all the moves, true, but was gaining absolutely no ground for it. The fight was not moving anywhere, and all Sidious had to do was remain in the center. It's not as though he was herding Sidious down dark corridors and hallways. Once again, to assert that Yoda would "kick Sidious' ass on even ground" is baseless because Janus cannot provide a cogent explanation for why Yoda was unable to breach Sidious's defense. The best that he can prove is that Yoda is a hair's width superior in lightsaber department over a Sith Lord who hasn't practiced with one in over thirteen years.

This is, perhaps, even more absurd. Put things into context, please. First, both Sidious and Yoda went into that fight more than a shade overconfident. Sidious blasts Yoda across the room -- Yoda's futile attempt to block the lightning was overpowered (and one could make a point of the look of "oh shit!" that crossed his own face) -- and knocked unconscious. Rather lackluster for the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, and given Sidious's malignant narcissism and arrogance, it is no surprise that he found the situation amusing. Likewise, when Yoda gave a forceful retaliation, it is then no surprise that Sidious began to question the logistics of a fight. He was facing his titular equal, a Jedi whose sole ambition in life was to end his, and after years of plotting, it would make sense for a Sith (someone bent on self preservation) to look for an escape. So, concluding, it is ridiculous that Sidious magically came to the conclusion that "I am outmatched!!" based on an opening salvo from which he actually dealt the better hand; Yoda knocked Sidious over his desk. Sidious knocked Yoda out.

I'm going to extend you a courtesy of patience. If you'd like to keep this up, I would suggest not being needlessly sarcastic. You see, you say it yourself: "a hint of fear". Janus said "shitting his pants". There is an ocean of a difference between the two, and when you get sarcastic like this, you leave yourself open to a brutal retaliation. In short: you're not helping his point.

Reminds me of the time Nai Fohl claimed "Oh, he was trying to cover his eyes!" -- Yoda clearly lifted his hands up as the lightning encroached upon him. Why? To cover his eyes or to try to block it. Which one seems more logical to you?

Pardon? Sidious's lightsaber was used in the Senate rotunda. But after the lightsaber duel ended, he was never in a position where it would be advantageous, thus nullifying Janus's attempt to use Occam's Razor. Once again, be mindful of your sarcasm, young padawan

You're incorrect. When the lightning coil detonated, Yoda and Sidious were flung off of the Senate pod. Sidious grabbed on the railing; Yoda was blasted all the way back into the interior to crash onto the Chancellor's podium. That is the pod you see him gripping. He was knocked away, far farther than Sidious.

a.) Blocking something is not the same as overpowering it. Otherwise, when Sidious blocks Yoda's lightsaber strike, he must obviously be superior with a blade.

b.) He's demonstrated more than enough power to stop one Senate pod, especially with gravity on his side. Perhaps it was because he felt that it was getting him nowhere?

That doesn't work. If we use your logic, all you've proven is that they're equal, which is really the point I've been arguing for this whole time. Ultimately, in the opening salvo, more damage was done to Yoda than to Sidious. It's irretrievable fact.

While the battle would not be a cakewalk, Yoda wins

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
First, what exactly did they say? Also, I don't think anyone was seriously saying that Yoda would wtfpwn Sid, just that Yoda would win.

I can access the official databank from here, but the two other sources are at my father's house. Sometime tonight, I'll be able to give you all three statements from all three sources.

So Yoda was unable to break through Yoda's defense in the first few seconds of the duel, the fact that he was outpacing him still shows that over time, Sid would have lost. Unless there in a VERY clear difference of power (which there is not in the this case) the battles go on for quite some time although one person is gaining the upper hand and will eventually exploit a weakness.

Which was the entire point. It was Janus's contention that Yoda was dominating Sidious like a rapist with a thirteen year old girl. At best, Yoda's advantage in lightsaber combat is comically marginal, and if we are to take Janus at his word, Yoda was still unable to breach Sidious's defense, meaning that Yoda's apparent outpacing of Sidious is irrelevant unless he can use that to break through the Sith Lord's defense, of which there is no evidence.

No Yoda wasn't hearding him down corridors, but it still shows that he was superior in lightsaber combat.

At best, a marginally slim superiority over a Sith Lord who has not used a lightsaber in thirteen years, the greater point being that nowhere has Yoda displayed the ability to breach Sidious's defense.

Yeah both of them went in overconfident, agreed. Those first few moments of the battle, the push and the lightning, are both anomolies that would likely not occur again.

Conceded, then? Excellent. We may move on to other points.

I think you need to understand hyperbole, no Sid did not have to hire a maid to come in and clean up the pod and it was never seriously meant that way. The point was that after Yoda tossed the pod back, Sid was afraid.

There is no objective reason to use hyperbole in this scenario unless you are seeking to aggrandize the abilities of one character and downgrade the abilities of another (further proof that Janus is not being objective nor fair).

Granted, I hadn't watched the movie to check and that was my recollection.

Conceded, then? Excellent. We may move on to other points.

Yes but why did the lightsaber duel end? If Sid was winning in that, why would he decide to try something else?

Was it my contention that Sidious was "winning" the lightsaber duel? No. Was it my contention that Sidious was "winning" the entire fight itself? No. If you're going to debate this with me, as I have explained, do not try to put a spin on my words or imply something alternative to what I've said.

Yoda was clearly keen on continuing, when he jumped up to the pod he brought his lightsaber out to continue.

Well, of course Yoda was clearly keen on continuing the lightsaber duel. He's a Jedi Master -- he hasn't access to nearly as many offensive Force powers as Sidious -- his best chance for success is with that weapon. Which is why, when he loses it, he has no intention of continuing the fight and retreats.

As for cases when the lightsaber would have been useful, a large portion of the fight is skipped, but I would say that instead of fleeing up higher in the pods, continuing with the blade would be good.

With all due respect, your assertion is preposterous. Sidious's goal throughout the fight is to escape, if it means retreating or overpowering Yoda by any means necessary. Continuing to engage in a lightsaber duel that is getting him nowhere is foolish and conterproductive to his goals. He is in less danger when there is greater distance between himself and Yoda.

Also, the blade would have been useful when Yoda landed in the pod with him. Also when Sid jumped down to the pod and was looking around, wondering where Yoda was. If in a battle and uncertain of your opponents location, I would have my weapon out, just in case he came from behind.

Once again, with respect, this line of thought is asinine. The movie quite handily displayed that, after the pod hurling mini-battle, Sidious's lightsaber was not necessary. When Yoda landed on the final Senate pod, he ignited his lightsaber, which Sidious promptly relieved him of via Sith lightning; he disarmed his opponent without utilizing the weapon that you claim that he needed.

Whoops my bad, I remembered Yoda grabbing onto something and assumed it was the pod.

Conceded, then? Excellent, we may move on.

That is completely different, if you block a blade it shows that your physical strength is approximately the same as your opponents. Blocking a force attack demonstrates that your level of the force is around equal with your opponent.

No, it is not different. Your assertion was that "Yoda is greater" because he "blocked" Sidious's Force lightning; if we apply that very same logic to lightsabers, "Sidious is greater" because he blocked all of Yoda's strikes. It is a line of thought that does not work and is best discarded.

Sid tried to use the lightning against Yoda in the pod, it failed and the expression on Sid's face was hardly that of a man about to win.

Was it my contention that Sidious "won"? This is the very final time I will ask you to not put a spin to my words, as I have no interest in responding to someone who is going to imply something contrary to what I've said. And, to make an addendum, it did not fail. The lightning coil detonated and, as a result, Yoda was forced to flee. It was very much a success, though not in the way that Sidious intended it.

And if he felt it was getting him nowhere, than does that not demonstrate that Yoda, with gravity against him, was defeating all Sid's force attacks?

You do not seem to quite understand the concept of "getting [a person] nowhere". You're familiar with the term stalemate? In a stalemate, neither side gains any true advantage or major ground. That Sidious was not getting anywhere using the pods is not indicative that he was losing.

Also, Sid blocking the pod would have been better for him because then he would not have had to dive away, uncertain of Yoda's location. When in a serious battle, you would always want to know where your enemy is, in diving away, Sid gave that up.

While I'm certain your personal expertise in battle is profound, once again, Sidious was gaining absolutely zero ground from making use of the pods. This behavior is consistent with the explanation I offered for the lightsaber duel; he changed environments and tactics to try to gain an advantage.

I'm not saying that Yoda would wtfpwn Sid, just that given time and in a level arena, Yoda would win.

This was Janus's contention, and you decided to argue on behalf of him, not yourself.

In the screenshots Janus posted Yoda was winning the saber battle. In force attacks Sid's telekensis was failing and at the very end with the lightning we see that Sid was certainly not looking confident. Sure in the opening salvo Yoda came out worse for the wear, but in the end, that means very little as the opening was both opponents being foolish and underestimating their opponent. In the end we see Yoda beating Sid with the blade and against the lightning we see Sid looking scared, mouth wide open in shock. At the very end before the exposion we hear Sid go "uh, uhggg" and then the explosion takes place. Also, as to the lightsaber combat, view the very beginning of the battle in the Senate, when they still have their blades. Sid has his teeth clenched, mouth tight and just before they cut to the pod section, Sid is going "ahhh" mouth wide open. He is hardly laughing and defintely seems to be loosing.

Once again, if we're going to base "who is better" on facial expressions, I can point out that Sidious was "WTFpwnz0rs!" Yoda because there were moments throughout the duel that he was obviously not taking it seriously. Hell, he was in a position to kill Yoda twice (once when Yoda was unconscious, and once when Yoda was distracted trying to fling the Senate pod back) and did not capitalize on it because he found the situation amusing. You'd best just scuttle the entire point about facial expressions altogether.

While the battle would not be a cakewalk, Yoda wins

There is no indication of that, but I do appreciate the efforts.

Originally posted by Gideon
The official databank, the New Essential Chronology, and the Ultimate Visual Guide all unanimously contradict the idea that Yoda was kicking Sidious's ass. As I've told Janus, these statements and interpretations are not thrown out arbitrarily; that they are not eliminated or retconned by subsequent material seems likely that LFL does not feel that the statements provided are contradicting the movies.

Hey, Escape.
Did you read the thread title? I'm just wondering. All statements commenting the fight as it happens in RotS are absolutely void here. Because in all stages of the fight, Sidious fought out of a superior position. This thread here assumes that both opponents are fighting on equal ground. You might come to the conclusion that the fight won't take the same route it did in RotS, considering that assumption.

Essentially, all that Janus has indicated is that Yoda was outpacing Sidious through their lightsaber duel. When the point was posed to him that Yoda was obviously unable to exploit the openings in Sidious's defense, Janus responded with the out-of-universe, sarcastic explanation that it was because the OT could not be rendered obsolete. That does not cut it. Essentially, if we are to take this analysis as fact, Yoda was still unable to break through Sidious's defense.

Wow, Escape. Because Yoda was unable to get through Sidious defences in 30 seconds of lightsaber combat that does mean that Yoda could never have done it? What a pitty excuse for an argument.

Facts: Yoda is constantly fighting Sidious from a position of disadvantage (Sidious inside the Pod, Yoda outside). Despite of that he's, literally, running circles around the Sith Lord while the latter one keeps moaning each time he has to engage Yoda in a saber lock. Finally Yoda even manages to fight Sidious out of that superior position which either causes Sidious to lose his lightsaber or to put it away and run for his life.

Yet, despite of that, you want to state that those two opponents were equal in lightsaber combat? Despite the fact that Yoda does totally school Sidious who has a position of advantage? Despite the fact that Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for 13 years while Yoda had 3 years of frontline action just prior to their RotS duel? Despite the fact that even Mace Windu, who did himself state that he couldn't match Yoda in terms of lightsaber skill or force mastery managed to break through Sidious defence?

Yes. That's such a great showing of applied logic.

Controlling the fight? Yoda was making all the moves, true, but was gaining absolutely no ground for it. The fight was not moving anywhere, and all Sidious had to do was remain in the center. It's not as though he was herding Sidious down dark corridors and hallways. Once again, to assert that Yoda would "kick Sidious' ass on even ground" is baseless because Janus cannot provide a cogent explanation for why Yoda was unable to breach Sidious's defense. The best that he can prove is that Yoda is a hair's width superior in lightsaber department over a Sith Lord who hasn't practiced with one in over thirteen years.

And now you're really arguing against the movie, Escape. Look at the last sequence in the lightsaber fight that is shown in the film. Yoda fights Sidious out of the center position of the pod and takes it himself. This, once more, after 30 seconds of lightsaber action. If there is someone here that doesn't have any base for his argument, than it's you, as you're the guy handing in definite statements here that are based on nothing but a 30 second action sequence that shows your favourite character losing a lightsaber fight. Good god.

Janus offered this explanation. And, to you, I pose the question: how would it have been of further use? Outside of close quarters combat, Sidious has no need for a lightsaber.

There is no canon explanation. I do not exclude the possibility that he was disarmed, but it cannot be proven. It is just as likely that he put it away and opted for long-ranged assault.

Right. Occam's razor seems to be an arbitrary concept which can't be used in discussions. Mind you. According to Escape it's entirely possible, that a combatant – while in close quarter combat with a famed lightsaber duellist – will deactive his weapon and put it away. That's totally plausible in th mind of Mr. Escape. But not only that. It's as likely as the idea that Sidious got disarmed which is just, mind you Escape, stated by the RotS Script and – excuse me – about 1000 times more plausible than the idea that Sidious decided to put his weapon away, while Yoda was running circles around him.

That conclusion is only valid if either Yoda turned into a completely inept combatant and allowed Sidious to abandon the Chancellor's podium and reach a vast distance away or Sidious, unarmed, managed to overpower and evade a still fully armed Yoda in close quarters. The former is completely out of the question and the latter would only serve to glorify Sidious.

Right. Let's base everything on Sidious-Fanboy-Friendly scenarios. The most likely scenario, given what we see in the movie, is that Sidious either lost his weapon and jumped away from the Chancellor's pod being disarmed or that he jumped away following Yoda fighting him out of his position of advantage (the middle of the pod), put his lightsaber away and started to throw pods.

Now. How does that matter? In either case Sidious was beaten in lightsaber combat by Yoda because he was either disarmed or decided he couldn't last much longer and took a [risky] road to escape from the melee fight. And notice how our dear Gideon is no Sidious fanboy: Even if Sidious was disarmed by Yoda first, the fact that he wasn't immediately killed speaks for his great skill. LMAO.

Actually, no, there is no proof for that. Sidious would be an idiot if he put the lightsaber away during a lightsaber duel, which is not what I have suggested. Sidious would be a self-preserving realist to put his lightsaber away if he came to the conclusion that it was getting him nowhere, and opt for a method of combat that requires putting as much distance from Yoda as humanly possible.

Right, dude. The guy was moaning during the duel and had Yoda running circles around him first and then the Jedi Master proceeded with fencing him out of his position of advantage. Apparently he did not decide that this “was getting him nowhere” but rather that this was getting him into his early grave. So he ran. Which he was, I may remind you, trying from the moment Yoda force pushed him across his own office.

This is, perhaps, even more absurd. Put things into context, please. First, both Sidious and Yoda went into that fight more than a shade overconfident. Sidious blasts Yoda across the room -- Yoda's futile attempt to block the lightning was overpowered (and one could make a point of the look of "oh shit!" that crossed his own face) -- and knocked unconscious. Rather lackluster for the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, and given Sidious's malignant narcissism and arrogance, it is no surprise that he found the situation amusing. Likewise, when Yoda gave a forceful retaliation, it is then no surprise that Sidious began to question the logistics of a fight. He was facing his titular equal, a Jedi whose sole ambition in life was to end his, and after years of plotting, it would make sense for a Sith (someone bent on self preservation) to look for an escape. So, concluding, it is ridiculous that Sidious magically came to the conclusion that "I am outmatched!!" based on an opening salvo from which he actually dealt the better hand; Yoda knocked Sidious over his desk. Sidious knocked Yoda out.

Hello, Escape.
Sidious goes on stating that he has waited for the confrontation with Yoda and suddenly he wants to run after experiencing the power of the Jedi Master first hand. Notice how Sidious has already lost to a guy that put himself several levels below Yoda in both lightsaber skill and force power. Care to explain how Sidious, keeping the fact in mind that Mace Windu did (quoting Lucas himself) “overpower” him, is suddenly the equal of Yoda, who's more powerful in comparison to Mace and a greater swordsman?

Reminds me of the time Nai Fohl claimed "Oh, he was trying to cover his eyes!" -- Yoda clearly lifted his hands up as the lightning encroached upon him. Why? To cover his eyes or to try to block it. Which one seems more logical to you?

Right, little friend.
Yoda was obviously trying to block the lightning – that's why he's moving his hands in front of his face which he...let me see...never does when attempting to block lightning. Normally he catches it with his hands near to the centre of his body. Can it be that Yoda didn't expect this move of Sidious and that his reaction was pure instinct?

Because, Escape, if I may remind you. Yoda demonstrates the ability to block Sidious lightning at closer range later in the fight. Which means that arguing he couldn't do it if properly defending himself against that attack is...futile. On the other hand Sidious get's owned by Yoda twice. One with the force push and in the second instant when Yoda channels Sidious own lightning back at the Dark Lord. A scene, if I may point that out, that you seem to constantly ignore somehow.

Sidious attacks Yoda with lightning. Yoda catches it with one hand. Then Sidious pushes forward until the point where Yoda starts to channel the lightning back. You can see Sidious bending backward before the force energy between him and the Jedi Master explodes. Excuse me. Without that little explosion Sidious would have found himself in the very same situation he was in at the end of the duel with Mace – but this time without Anakin at hand to save his ass.

Pardon? Sidious's lightsaber was used in the Senate rotunda. But after the lightsaber duel ended, he was never in a position where it would be advantageous, thus nullifying Janus's attempt to use Occam's Razor. Once again, be mindful of your sarcasm, young padawan.

What an astonishing comment.
Escape. Let's apply Occam's Razor to the “missing lightsaber” situation correctly.

Your version: Sidious, being Yoda's equal in terms of lightsaber combat (illogical, given that the Jedi Master, unlike Sidious, had 3 years of frontline experience prior to the fight while the Sith Lord didn't touch his weapon for more than a decade) did decide to get away from the lightsaber fight, manage to do that (against his equal) and put his lightsaber away because it would get him anywhere.

Our version: Sidious, being the inferior duellist, was disarmed by Yoda.

Now. Apply Occam's Razor to that explanations and show us that your version is actually the one which needs less assumptions. I count 3 in comparison to 1. Which is not even pointing out that our version is bolstered by the RotS Script and by far the more logical scenario.

You're incorrect. When the lightning coil detonated, Yoda and Sidious were flung off of the Senate pod. Sidious grabbed on the railing; Yoda was blasted all the way back into the interior to crash onto the Chancellor's podium. That is the pod you see him gripping. He was knocked away, far farther than Sidious.

Uh-hu. One might just point to the basic physics department. With the same energy used one could obviously move something with less weight farther than something which has more weight. In this case Sidious is, well...what...5,6,8 times as heavy as Yoda? You might also want to note that Yoda was directly pushed away from the pod (given that he was already standing on the outside) while Sidious was slammed in the back of the pod and after that went over the edge.

a.) Blocking something is not the same as overpowering it. Otherwise, when Sidious blocks Yoda's lightsaber strike, he must obviously be superior with a blade.

False comparison. Faulty logic. Really. Yoda was not only blocking Sidious lightning. He was throwing it back at the Sith Lord visibly pushing Sidious back. This despite of the fact that Sidious did use his height and weight advantage to push forward. Sorry, Escape. The scene, as it is shown in the movie, actually shows that Yoda was overpowering Sidious in the matter of sense that he was practically about to defeat the Sith with channeling Sidious attack back at the Dark Lord.

b.) He's demonstrated more than enough power to stop one Senate pod, especially with gravity on his side. Perhaps it was because he felt that it was getting him nowhere?

Right, Escape. Once more you may want to use Occam's Razor and don't assume that “Sidious thought action XYZ was getting him nowhere” and therefore didn't perform it, instead of simply acknowledging that “he couldn't do it” is the easier explanation, therefore the one that should be prefered in a logically sound argument. And where did he demonstrate enough power to stop a Senate pod. I only see him throwing those things down without any resistance in the form of natural power (gravity) or force power (Yoda trying to stop those pods) working against him.

That doesn't work. If we use your logic, all you've proven is that they're equal, which is really the point I've been arguing for this whole time. Ultimately, in the opening salvo, more damage was done to Yoda than to Sidious. It's irretrievable fact.

Great, Escape.
You did, of course, notice that those two opponents are shown to be “equal” when Sidious keeps the advantage positions throughout the entirety of this duel and even in this situation he's apparently almost losing on two occasions. Once when he moves out of the lightsaber duel (either because he was disarmed or because he decided he can't stand Yoda's assault any longer) and the second occasion is, when Yoda channels Sidious' own lightning back at the Dark Lord.

And as I may remind you. This thread has the Geonosian hangar as location. There is no superior position that Sidious would be able to claim. He has to face Yoda on equal ground in a straight out fight. A similar situation to that, I may remind you again, in which he was beaten by Yoda's inferior Mace Windu. And this while, as we saw in the movie, he wasn't even able to overcome Yoda when he had the superior position throughout the entire fight.

Now please just answer that question: If he is constanly fought out of superior positions by Yoda, how is he going to survive a duel with the Jedi Master in a situation where there is no advantage of position. If Yoda did indeed disarm him in a lightsaber duel (as the RotS Script claims with the words “it looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed”) what is Sidious going to do? What would he do if they repeat their force battle? Because, mind you, Yoda after falling down 20 or 30 metres is still back on his legs faster than Sidious.

So on equal ground Yoda will either defeat Sidious in a lightsaber fight (once again: Yoda had constant lightsaber action that Sidious is clearly lacking) or they will engage in a force fight in which Yoda will either overpower him or recover from the exploding force energy (assuming it will happen again) faster than Sidious. Assuming the fighting ground, the most likely scenario is the same that we saw between Yoda and Dooku in AotC. They will start with a force contest and end up in lightsaber combat. But, unlike his apprentice, Sidious can't distract Yoda and run here.

It was only a matter of time before Nai arrived to demonstrate the capacity for arrogance in spite of mediocre ability.

Originally posted by Borborad
Hey, Escape.
Did you read the thread title? I'm just wondering. All statements commenting the fight as it happens in RotS are absolutely void here. Because in all stages of the fight, Sidious fought out of a superior position. This thread here assumes that both opponents are fighting on equal ground. You might come to the conclusion that the fight won't take the same route it did in RotS, considering that assumption.

Hey, Nai, did you happen to read any of the arguments posted by Janus and Lord Darkstar? Obviously not, but I'll play the good samaritan and recap the situation for you: it was Janus's contention that Yoda was decisively kicking Sidious's ass during their duel in Revenge of the Sith and, as a result, he would be able to do so on even ground. Lord Darkstar took up the same argument on Janus's behalf, which is why I mentioned the three aforementioned sources; not a single supplement to the movies concludes that Yoda was doing any bit of ass kicking. Now, while I appreciate your unnecessary observation of the logistics of this particular duel, you might want to sit this one out. No need for someone ignorant of the circumstances of the debate to throw in his two cents if he's not going to bother to read. Don't you make a habit out of lecturing others for that?

Wow, Escape.

[sarcasm] Wow, Nai, you're sure starting your baits and jabs off in a much more versatile manner than usual.[/sarcasm]

Should I start a "wow count"? I understand that English isn't your native language, but some versatility would be nice.

[QUOTE]Because Yoda was unable to get through Sidious defences in 30 seconds of lightsaber combat that does mean that Yoda could never have done it? What a pitty excuse for an argument.

If the disparity between Yoda and Sidious were as immense as Janus likes to pretend that it is, yes, Nai, he should have been able to render Sidious without his weapon in such a short amount of time. That he was unable to would suggest that either the "holes" in Sidious's defense really weren't that large to exploit or Yoda was unable to do so for whatever reason.

Facts: Yoda is constantly fighting Sidious from a position of disadvantage (Sidious inside the Pod, Yoda outside). Despite of that he's, literally, running circles around the Sith Lord while the latter one keeps moaning each time he has to engage Yoda in a saber lock. Finally Yoda even manages to fight Sidious out of that superior position which either causes Sidious to lose his lightsaber or to put it away and run for his life.

What are you on about? Yoda's position was hardly disadvantageous, as his form relies on kinetic energy and fast movements to apply force on his opponents. Had their positions been reversed, Yoda would have been at a disadvantage, as he would lack the room to maneuver. If it is your contention that Sidious "had teh superior position!!1!", it might be best for you to relearn the basics of Ataru; it was to Yoda's best interest that Sidious remain in the center of the podium.

Yet, despite of that, you want to state that those two opponents were equal in lightsaber combat? Despite the fact that Yoda does totally school Sidious who has a position of advantage? Despite the fact that Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for 13 years while Yoda had 3 years of frontline action just prior to their RotS duel? Despite the fact that even Mace Windu, who did himself state that he couldn't match Yoda in terms of lightsaber skill or force mastery managed to break through Sidious defence?

The passage of time is not indicative of inferior skill relative to other combatants; it would only be indicative that Sidious is not as good as he once was when he practiced with a lightsaber frequently. After all, his state of dormancy in terms of lightsaber skill did not mean that his abilities atrophied totally, as he was still able to outmaneuver and defeat three of the finest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history in about twenty seconds, the third of which he managed to kill while sparring with Windu himself. And, while I appreciate the attempt at the ABC argument, Windu's Vaapad is tailor made to work wonders against dark side combatants, turning "the dark into a weapon of the light", so attempting to bring Yoda's skills in comparison to Windu's into the equation is ridiculous.

Yes. That's such a great showing of applied logic.

Really, Nai, is it your habit to apply sarcasm to situations when you're hardly making a point?

And now you're really arguing against the movie, Escape. Look at the last sequence in the lightsaber fight that is shown in the film. Yoda fights Sidious out of the center position of the pod and takes it himself. This, once more, after 30 seconds of lightsaber action. If there is someone here that doesn't have any base for his argument, than it's you, as you're the guy handing in definite statements here that are based on nothing but a 30 second action sequence that shows your favourite character losing a lightsaber fight. Good god.

Take the syringe out of your arm, Nai. At the last sequence in the lightsaber fight that is shown in the film, Sidious is not fought out of the center position on the Chancellor's podium; Yoda breaks the lightsaber lock and moves back in the direction from whence he came, trying to wear down Sidious's defense.

Right. Occam's razor seems to be an arbitrary concept which can't be used in discussions. Mind you. According to Escape it's entirely possible, that a combatant – while in close quarter combat with a famed lightsaber duellist – will deactive his weapon and put it away. That's totally plausible in th mind of Mr. Escape. But not only that. It's as likely as the idea that Sidious got disarmed which is just, mind you Escape, stated by the RotS Script and – excuse me – about 1000 times more plausible than the idea that Sidious decided to put his weapon away, while Yoda was running circles around him.

You've been injecting more than your usual amount, Nai. Are there not clinics for this sort of abuse in Germany? I did not say that Sidious -- while in close quarter combat with Yoda -- deactivated his lightsaber. In fact, just for you:

Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, no, there is no proof for that. Sidious would be an idiot if he put the lightsaber away during a lightsaber duel, which is not what I have suggested.

...Lecturing people on reading comprehension should be high on the list of 'things not to do when arguing with Gideon, especially if he makes it look like I am a complete an utter ass'. It was never my contention that, in mid-swing, Sidious puts his lightsaber away. Now, is it your contention that an unarmed Sidious managed to escape from a lightsaber-wielding-Yoda and put several meters worth of distance between them? That would suggest that Yoda was either disabled by the Sith Lord or that Sidious is much faster than his opponent. Either way, you're not helping your case.

Right. Let's base everything on Sidious-Fanboy-Friendly scenarios. The most likely scenario, given what we see in the movie, is that Sidious either lost his weapon and jumped away from the Chancellor's pod being disarmed or that he jumped away following Yoda fighting him out of his position of advantage (the middle of the pod), put his lightsaber away and started to throw pods.

The former is totally out of the question, unless it is your contention that Sidious can move far faster than Yoda or overpowered him, despite being unarmed. The latter is something that I have no problem accepting and it is more logical [though, once again, it is fallacious to state that Yoda was at a disadvantage because of Sidious's position].

Now. How does that matter? In either case Sidious was beaten in lightsaber combat by Yoda because he was either disarmed or decided he couldn't last much longer and took a [risky] road to escape from the melee fight. And notice how our dear Gideon is no Sidious fanboy: Even if Sidious was disarmed by Yoda first, the fact that he wasn't immediately killed speaks for his great skill. LMAO.

I'm afraid that this branches out from speculation and into the area of assuming characters' thoughts. That Sidious "felt he couldn't last much longer" has no logical basis, Nai, and so you cannot assume that is how he thought. It is just as plausible that he thought: "Damn, this is not getting me anywhere, let's try something else." The comments on fanboyism are quaint, and that you continue to be exposed to be a bit of a hack would suggest that the drug abuse is beginning to corrupt what few brain cells you have left, Nai.

Help is out there, Nai, you need only make one telephone call.

Right, dude. The guy was moaning during the duel and had Yoda running circles around him first and then the Jedi Master proceeded with fencing him out of his position of advantage. Apparently he did not decide that this “was getting him nowhere” but rather that this was getting him into his early grave. So he ran. Which he was, I may remind you, trying from the moment Yoda force pushed him across his own office.

You're right, why bother proving it or supporting the idea, when we can just claim that it is God-given-fact and assume it, anyways. And, let's not bring up the "he ran away, LOLZ!!1!" argument, because if I remember correctly, that is exactly how the fight ended. With Sidious laughing and Yoda scrambling his little green ass across the Senate floor, and then after wards, moaning to Bail Organa how "he failed".

I can take things out of context, too, Nai, and despite the fact that your expertise in that particular area well exceeds mine, it's not to your advantage to continue.

Hello, Escape.

Nai, these little one liners are ridiculous. We've gone to the obligatory "Wow, Escape [x15000]" to greetings? What has EoD done to your ability to convey skilled sarcasm?

Sidious goes on stating that he has waited for the confrontation with Yoda and suddenly he wants to run after experiencing the power of the Jedi Master first hand. Notice how Sidious has already lost to a guy that put himself several levels below Yoda in both lightsaber skill and force power. Care to explain how Sidious, keeping the fact in mind that Mace Windu did (quoting Lucas himself) “overpower” him, is suddenly the equal of Yoda, who's more powerful in comparison to Mace and a greater swordsman?

Originally posted by Gideon
While I appreciate the attempt at the ABC argument, Windu's Vaapad is tailor made to work wonders against dark side combatants, turning "the dark into a weapon of the light", so attempting to bring Yoda's skills in comparison to Windu's into the equation is ridiculous.

Right, little friend.
Yoda was obviously trying to block the lightning – that's why he's moving his hands in front of his face which he...let me see...never does when attempting to block lightning. Normally he catches it with his hands near to the centre of his body. Can it be that Yoda didn't expect this move of Sidious and that his reaction was pure instinct?

He always brings his hands up near his upper chest and face, Janus. Likewise, we clearly saw from the trajectory of the lightning that that is where Sidious was aiming for. Can it be that Sidious really didn't pull a sneak attack on Yoda and lifted his hands rather slowly, punctuating with the obligatory evil monologue, but Yoda's head (like Sidious's own with the telekinetic push) was up his ass and he (you'll pardon me for saying this) "paid the price for [his] lack of vision"?

Because, Escape, if I may remind you. Yoda demonstrates the ability to block Sidious lightning at closer range later in the fight. Which means that arguing he couldn't do it if properly defending himself against that attack is...futile. On the other hand Sidious get's owned by Yoda twice. One with the force push and in the second instant when Yoda channels Sidious own lightning back at the Dark Lord. A scene, if I may point that out, that you seem to constantly ignore somehow.

Nai (on Sidious knocking Yoda unconscious): "LOLZ, Yoda was not prepareD!!!11!"

Me: "I know, Nai. It was never my contention that Sidious overpowered a fully prepared Yoda. However, due to hubris, Yoda was unable to provide a solid defense."

Nai (on Sidious being knocked across the room): "LOLZ, YODA OWNED HIM!!!"

Me: "What? Nai, he obviously wasn't concentrating on Yoda, since he was laughing and spitting out venomous one liners at the Jedi Master."

Nai: *waving around his Hypocrite License* I know! But, see, I'm gonna call you a fanboy and then make bullshit, tainted, and biased observations on my own!! Hahahah! Wow, Escape!"

Sidious attacks Yoda with lightning. Yoda catches it with one hand. Then Sidious pushes forward until the point where Yoda starts to channel the lightning back. You can see Sidious bending backward before the force energy between him and the Jedi Master explodes. Excuse me. Without that little explosion Sidious would have found himself in the very same situation he was in at the end of the duel with Mace – but this time without Anakin at hand to save his ass.

Speculation without basis. But, we know, old habits die hard. You're excused.

What an astonishing comment.

What? A (not-so-funny attempt at a) one liner? No, Nai, I am astonished.

Escape. Let's apply Occam's Razor to the “missing lightsaber” situation correctly.

This just in: Nai Fohl is attempting to make a logical deduction. In other news, hell just froze over.

Your version: Sidious, being Yoda's equal in terms of lightsaber combat (illogical, given that the Jedi Master, unlike Sidious, had 3 years of frontline experience prior to the fight while the Sith Lord didn't touch his weapon for more than a decade) did decide to get away from the lightsaber fight, manage to do that (against his equal) and put his lightsaber away because it would get him anywhere.

We interrupt this bullshit for a breaking news announcement: this is bullshit.

Nai, this is beyond retarded. It's your contention that Sidious could not have disengaged lightsaber combat against Yoda,

Our version: Sidious, being the inferior duellist, was disarmed by Yoda.

...But it is your contention that Sidious, being the inferior duelist and Force user, managed to evade and/or overpowered a fully armed Yoda to escape to the far away Senate pods? Maybe I should let you argue this for me.

Now. Apply Occam's Razor to that explanations and show us that your version is actually the one which needs less assumptions. I count 3 in comparison to 1. Which is not even pointing out that our version is bolstered by the RotS Script and by far the more logical scenario.

Once again, Nai, the explanation your offering is illogical and serves, despite your intent, only to aggrandize Sidious. As far as the screenplay is concerned, Sidious was disarmed, but the circumstances around the fight (Yoda letting Sidious go, for no reason) is utter crap, as well as contradicted by the movie, novelization, and supplementary sources.

Uh-hu. One might just point to the basic physics department. With the same energy used one could obviously move something with less weight farther than something which has more weight. In this case Sidious is, well...what...5,6,8 times as heavy as Yoda? You might also want to note that Yoda was directly pushed away from the pod (given that he was already standing on the outside) while Sidious was slammed in the back of the pod and after that went over the edge.

Where the hell do you get those calculations, Nai? Sidious is a small, adult male and you're suggesting that he is eight times the weight of Yoda?

False comparison. Faulty logic. Really. Yoda was not only blocking Sidious lightning. He was throwing it back at the Sith Lord visibly pushing Sidious back. This despite of the fact that Sidious did use his height and weight advantage to push forward. Sorry, Escape. The scene, as it is shown in the movie, actually shows that Yoda was overpowering Sidious in the matter of sense that he was practically about to defeat the Sith with channeling Sidious attack back at the Dark Lord.

Prove that he was pushing Sidious back. The lightning coil, once again, was no where near Sidious when it detonated. Prove that Sidious, obviously more familiar with the effects of Force lightning than Yoda, did not predict the coming explosion and attempt to lean away from its full force. Likewise, prove that the height and weight factored in as an advantage with the metaphysical Force lightning, since -- when Yoda pushed the coil back -- it stopped directly in the middle before it detonated. Yoda didn't fling the lightning back to Sidious, much as you try to portray otherwise.

Right, Escape. Once more you may want to use Occam's Razor and don't assume that “Sidious thought action XYZ was getting him nowhere” and therefore didn't perform it, instead of simply acknowledging that “he couldn't do it” is the easier explanation, therefore the one that should be prefered in a logically sound argument. And where did he demonstrate enough power to stop a Senate pod. I only see him throwing those things down without any resistance in the form of natural power (gravity) or force power (Yoda trying to stop those pods) working against him.

He hurled pods over his head in direct defiance of gravity to gain momentum. Multiple pods. Without visible effort. Logic concludes that he possessed the power to stop that pod, especially with gravity on his side.

Great, Escape.
You did, of course, notice that those two opponents are shown to be “equal” when Sidious keeps the advantage positions throughout the entirety of this duel and even in this situation he's apparently almost losing on two occasions. Once when he moves out of the lightsaber duel (either because he was disarmed or because he decided he can't stand Yoda's assault any longer) and the second occasion is, when Yoda channels Sidious' own lightning back at the Dark Lord.

You have yet to prove that the position, the center of the podium, was disadvantageous to Yoda, and you're not in a position to say, without a shadow of a doubt, that he "decided he can't stand Yoda's assault any longer".

And as I may remind you. This thread has the Geonosian hangar as location. There is no superior position that Sidious would be able to claim. He has to face Yoda on equal ground in a straight out fight. A similar situation to that, I may remind you again, in which he was beaten by Yoda's inferior Mace Windu. And this while, as we saw in the movie, he wasn't even able to overcome Yoda when he had the superior position throughout the entire fight.

Originally posted by Gideon
While I appreciate the attempt at the ABC argument, Windu's Vaapad is tailor made to work wonders against dark side combatants, turning "the dark into a weapon of the light", so attempting to bring Yoda's skills in comparison to Windu's into the equation is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Gideon
You have yet to prove that the position, the center of the podium, was disadvantageous to Yoda

Now please just answer that question: If he is constanly fought out of superior positions by Yoda, how is he going to survive a duel with the Jedi Master in a situation where there is no advantage of position. If Yoda did indeed disarm him in a lightsaber duel (as the RotS Script claims with the words “it looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed”) what is Sidious going to do? What would he do if they repeat their force battle? Because, mind you, Yoda after falling down 20 or 30 metres is still back on his legs faster than Sidious.

Why don't you go ahead and post the entire excerpt of the fight that the screenplay documents? Really, if you want, Nai, I can go ahead and post statements from the novelization, which is as much pro-Sidious as the screenplay is pro-Yoda, and being on the same plateau of canon (with Stover's own assurances that everything in the novel is there because Lucas wanted it to be), and you'll be on a one man destination to the town of Nowhere, population 01.

So on equal ground Yoda will either defeat Sidious in a lightsaber fight (once again: Yoda had constant lightsaber action that Sidious is clearly lacking) or they will engage in a force fight in which Yoda will either overpower him or recover from the exploding force energy (assuming it will happen again) faster than Sidious. Assuming the fighting ground, the most likely scenario is the same that we saw between Yoda and Dooku in AotC. They will start with a force contest and end up in lightsaber combat. But, unlike his apprentice, Sidious can't distract Yoda and run here.

Well, this was entertaining, but you haven't proved a bit of the above. Likewise, the little "recovery" point is laughable. Sidious was hanging on the ledge, trying to pull himself up. Yoda wasn't in such a position. You'd have to prove that Sidious would recover slower from such a fall. Really, Nai, you should leave this to Lord Darkstar. Because with each new addition to this debate, those arguing pro-Yoda are failing.

Go into exile, you must.

Prove that he was pushing Sidious back. The lightning coil, once again, was no where near Sidious when it detonated. Prove that Sidious, obviously more familiar with the effects of Force lightning than Yoda, did not predict the coming explosion and attempt to lean away from its full force. Likewise, prove that the height and weight factored in as an advantage with the metaphysical Force lightning, since -- when Yoda pushed the coil back -- it stopped directly in the middle before it detonated. Yoda didn't fling the lightning back to Sidious, much as you try to portray otherwise.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
One problem with this Escape. If Sidious did in fact predict the coming explosion, why did he make the "oh shit I'm screwed face"? That would be quite contradictory to him "expecting" the oncoming explosion and more along the lines of "wow I didn't know Yoda could do this and it's actually affecting me and coming towards me."

It's not contradictory at all, Darth Sexy. Even if he predicted the coming detonation, he was screwed either way: he could either suffer the consequences of the explosion or he could have disengaged the lightning attack, in which case, any resistance to Yoda would be severed, and he would suffer the full blast of deflected energy. It could be the expression of a man who realizes that he might have his ass knocked off of the pod either way.

From my POV, it looked like Sidious was either scared shitless or hurt, whereas Yoda had that serious look on his face.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
From my POV, it looked like Sidious was either scared shitless or hurt, whereas Yoda had that serious look on his face.

Once again, it is not my contention that the Emperor was not afraid. I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself to everyone, repeating this same shit, verbatim. But those who suggest pain should be taken as candidates for the Special Olympics; at the time of Sidious's anger/'fear' facial expression, the lightning had neither detonated nor touched him. There is no reason for him to feel pain, so it unquestionably comes to fear, which I did not deny.

Originally posted by Gideon
It could be the expression of a man who realizes that he might have his ass knocked off of the pod either way.

That might instill fear in a human Sith Lord; "Gee, I just achieved galacitc conquest and am now in a position where I might either suffer a sudden shockwave (no pun intended) and a great fall or I might be disabled with my own lightning and thrown off this pod by the Green Goblin's mini-me."