Yoda vs. Sidious rematch (no where to fall)

Started by wolfpack869 pages
Sidious was unable to overwhelm Yoda in a Force contest regarding a specific Force power that Yoda happens to have a natural defense against.

Natural defense or not, he was unable to do it, it doesn't matter which force power he was using.

It was impressive that Yoda was able to deflect Sidious's lightning and begin to push the lightning coil back in the Sith Lord's direction, but that does not conclude superior Force ability.

It might not conclude that, but it gives very strong evidence of such. It's just like when you bench press something, if you can begin to push the bar back up "the hardest part", by the halfway point don't you think it's "more likely" that you will continue to push it all the way up, rather then to let it fall back down? giving evidence that you are strong enough to "overcome" the force.

I don’t claim to be impartial and most here know I like Palpatine. I can therefore only offer what I glimpsed from the Yoda/Sidious fight in Episode III and my interpretation of it.

Part I:
The Jedi Are No More

Reading over Borb’s and Gideon’s posts, I saw the argument over the initial lightning strike by Darth Sidious. I thus captured these two images of that scene for your viewing pleasure.

As can be seen Yoda raises one hand which is sadly one hand too few to block multiple streams of Force lightning as we see later, Yoda needs both hands.

The tiny Master is launched into a wall and rolls onto the floor, motionless.

Palpatine walks over, his aid leaving very casually while Sidious proclaims “I have waited a long time for this moment, my little green friend.”

This line also was a point of contention as after yoda gets to his feet and Force pushes the Dark Lord away, Palpatine immediately jumps for the exit. (Note: admitting a sound of shock when Yoda blocks his escape route) Why would Palpatine leave if he had “waited a long time for this moment”? Perhaps the telling line is in the next sentence of that statement. “At last the Jedi are no more.” Perhaps Sidious means he’s waited a long time for the Jedi to be no more? The fact he personally gets a chance to destroy the last and strongest of them is merely a bonus.

However, when this pleasure became a somewhat serious peril, he opted not to risk everything and tried to flee. However, he was DENIED by the Green One.

Part II:
RRRRRRRAAAAAAHH!

Now Yoda and Palpatine enter into a saber fight. The most telling of commander of this duel for me was looking at the expressions of the two during saberlock:

Saberlock 1:

Yoda pushes Palpatin’s saber away to break the lock.

Saberlock 2

Not only is the difference in facial expressions clear, we can hear Palpating making a sound I can best describe as “Rrrrrrrrrrrrahhhh!!” while Yoda is soundless, also agreeing with his serene face.
I think Yoda breaks this saberlock too but I can’t tell so I won’t say.

Part III:
Here, Catch!

Now we see Sidious up above Yoda, cackling and chucking multiple Senate Pods.

Finally Yoda is knocked down and has no choice but to meet the Sith’s mobile offense with some defense
YouTube video

Yoda gets to his feet and stops the Senate pod in around 8 seconds. As soon as the pod nears Yoda he does indeed stop it dead.

Now Yoda is spinning the pod, presumably adding some form of speed or strength to it as he does so, and this goes on for a full 9 seconds in which Sidious does not appear aware of what the hell is going on. As the pod zooms at him, he FINALLY sees what’s happening and jumps out of the way. Upon landing, he has a rather...frightened look on his face as he glances around.

Part IV:
Blow Out

This is where the two masters are positioned when the lightning battle begins.

Now Palpatine’s expression as he is shooting the lightning at Yoda...

Yoda’s expression as he holds off the lightning and moves towards Sidious....

Now Sidious’ face as the lightning is being pushed back on him....

So, what is it we see? Palpatine getting the first strike with his lightning which removes Yoda’s lightsaber. He unleashes another barrage of the lethal force and Yoda blocks it all. Not only blocks it but steadily pushes it back on the Sith Lord as he (Yoda) moves forward while holding off the attack.
Sidious is unleashing his strongest attack on Yoda and Yoda is basically walking through it.

We also see the expression of effort on Sidious’ face while such emotion is absent from Yoda’s visage, implying that Yoda is indeed handling the battle better. Just as he did with the saberlock.

Finally the two are blown back and Palpatine manages to hold on while Yoda plummets to the ground. End Fight.

Conclusion:
I like Sidious far more than Yoda and that’s why I hate this fight. It is really a slap in the face to palpatine who usually looks strained, afraid or generally unimpressive for most of the battle.

Another post using good textual as well as visual evidence. Job well done.

Thanks. 🙂 The praise is much appreciated.

You know escape, the databank is contradictory of what actually happened in the movie. Nobody bested anybody. It was a stalemate, the end.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You know escape, the databank is contradictory of what actually happened in the movie. Nobody bested anybody. It was a stalemate, the end.

How boring.

Indeed. I say:

A) Palpatine lost fairly to Mace Windu in a pure saber duel. He did not fair much better than that when engaging Master Yoda. Yoda wins the lightsaber fight.

B) The junk in the hanger that could be thrown using the Force includes those things on the wall or pieces of the ceiling or even that crane. Yoda will not be having to jump from platform to platform this time so he'll more than likely do what he did with Dooku and just chuck everything Palpatine throws at him away. If Palpatine uses his lightning at Yoda...we know what will happen. Yoda pushes it back on the Sith Lord and once he's gained the advantage from this, who knows.

C) All-out fight probably goes like it did in ROTS. However, if Sidious starts off quick with the lightning and Yoda shoves it back in his face again, he will still have his lightsaber which he can utilize with his superior speed to follow up the lightning explosion by cutting off Palpatine's head.

There ya go.

Taking into consideration the sheer amount of opposition and thinking about it reflectively, I suppose there is no way to conclude that I'm the one who has come to the right conclusion, I suppose I'm just not seeing something. I'm going to concede the argument without quarter or objection.

No escape, you are still right, but people are making assumptions as to what would happen on even ground, that's all.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No escape, you are still right, but people are making assumptions as to what would happen on even ground, that's all.

I know. That's what I meant.

Yooooooooo. Chill it down now. I just laid it out like I felt it.

...I'll stop now.

Originally posted by Gideon
Taking into consideration the sheer amount of opposition and thinking about it reflectively, I suppose there is no way to conclude that I'm the one who has come to the right conclusion, I suppose I'm just not seeing something. I'm going to concede the argument without quarter or objection.

Wow, never thought I'd see this. Maybe I should do something totally ridiculous like take this out of context and as an admission of Sidious' inferiority to Yoda.

No, that would be stooping far too low. I'd hate to infringe on someone else's monopoly of counter-argument ideas. Straw manning is a fallacy best left to those who use it day in and day out.

Man Janus. I love your anti fanboy (alleged?) rhetoric. It's hilarious.

Don't feel threatened, DS. You give everyone here plenty of cheap amusement, too. After all, it takes quite a showman to continually keep showing up when he brings next to nothing to the act.

But hey, maybe someday you'll argue a position without having to borrow other people's ideas and hang on to their coattails, and then perhaps you will be remembered as something other than "the troll'.

Oh, but you do this parttime. Nevermind. We can't expect you to have any standards or motivation, although you certainly are the very best judge of debating character, I'm sure. With all your experience and expertise, it's a small wonder you haven't dominated this forum with your sharp mind.

Okay, I have to stop, it's getting hilarious.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Don't feel threatened, DS. You give everyone here plenty of cheap amusement, too. After all, it takes quite a showman to continually keep showing up when he brings next to nothing to the act.

Well Janus, if I give everybody here (thanks for speaking for everyone) plenty of cheap amusement, then you must be the dave chapelle of this forum with your constant bitching, anti fanboy rhetoric (although you are a fanboy yourself), hypocrisy, hilarious insults, and just an all out act. I pick my battles, while you get in and lose all of yours.. For a self proclaimed "great" debater and intelligent person, you embarass yourself everytime you come back to this forum, and then write about it on EOD like some prissy schoolgirl.

But hey, maybe someday you'll argue a position without having to borrow other people's ideas and hang on to their coattails, and then perhaps you will be remembered as something other than "the troll'.

Ah the typical "Janus" response to something that I said that MAYBE right. "Oh well you MUST have copied this from somebody else!!##!" It's quite clear that you and the rest of EOD either don't know the definition of "troll", or are so egocentric that hypocrisy has become a part of your everyday life.

Oh, but you do this parttime. Nevermind. We can't expect you to have any standards or motivation, although you certainly are the very best judge of debating character, I'm sure. With all your experience and expertise, it's a small wonder you haven't dominated this forum with your sharp mind.

Okay, I have to stop, it's getting hilarious. [/B]


What's more hilarious. Somebody that debates once in a while and chooses his battle, or a mid 20's customer service rep who spends his life on star wars forums getting pwned by a 16 year old? You're right Janus, this IS hilarious.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Wow, never thought I'd see this. Maybe I should do something totally ridiculous like take this out of context and as an admission of Sidious' inferiority to Yoda.

Not at all. Palpatine circa Return of the Jedi or Dark Empire would annihilate any incarnation of Yoda, and hang his little green balls on any given mirror on the Death Star for decoration; such capabilities are hardly consistent with someone who inferior to his opponent.

No, that would be stooping far too low.

Not really, given your penchant for stumbling down the cosmic ladder of morality, Janus.

I'd hate to infringe on someone else's monopoly of counter-argument ideas.

I'm sure Nai won't object.

Straw manning is a fallacy best left to those who use it day in and day out.

While I appreciate your recitation of EoD's board policies and tips for new arrivals to use in debates, I've been to EoD and am quite familiar with how you all do business. Likewise, Janus, I would suggest that you all put an emphasis back on humor, so when you come to KMC after tucking your tail between your legs and running off only to return when the opposition has conceded the point (a result of which you clearly had nothing to do with) to engage in banter, your remarks aren't so easily deflected and turned against you.

Concluding, all of this has yet to rain on my bright, sunny day ever since you grudgingly admitted that you were totally and completely wrong about Palpatine's status in the grand scheme of things, a level of maturity that I had not thought possible from one such as yourself. But it's only proof that we're making progress.

Not to assume, but I'm hoping that, in the future, we'll make progress regarding the Ancient Sith. Progress in the form of you not running back to EoD and ignoring my repeated requests as to proof that Marka Ragnos could WTFpwn Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious, Exar Kun, ect. without full use of his limbs.

Trust me. I'm not, nor have I ever been, a threat to you when it comes to petty biases. You're very much in a league of your own.

It's time for Darth Sexy for Dummies, folks!

Well Janus, if I give everybody here (thanks for speaking for everyone) plenty of cheap amusement, then you must be the dave chapelle of this forum with your constant bitching, anti fanboy rhetoric (although you are a fanboy yourself), hypocrisy, hilarious insults, and just an all out act. I pick my battles, while you get in and lose all of yours.. For a self proclaimed "great" debater and intelligent person, you embarass yourself everytime you come back to this forum, and then write about it on EOD like some prissy schoolgirl.

Translation: I may be a complete ass, but you are somehow worse. You ***** all the time and use rhetoric but you are a hypocrite, despite the fact that I am a troll and I hate on other people who troll; I am also a sock and I hate on other people who use socks. I somehow pick my battles, but my bullshit views and posts are all over this thread like white on rice. You somehow have a self-inflated view of yourself despite never making such claims in all seriousness, and you make a fool out of yourself despite the fact that all of my posts have the eloquence of chimps with typewriters. Btw, random forum bash.

Ah the typical "Janus" response to something that I said that MAYBE right. "Oh well you MUST have copied this from somebody else!!##!" It's quite clear that you and the rest of EOD either don't know the definition of "troll", or are so egocentric that hypocrisy has become a part of your everyday life.

Translation: Another belittling quip followed by another forum bash, with a skewed view of the definition of "troll" despite the fact that you posted it word for word when I was being accused of a troll a few weeks ago. You are egocentric and hypocritical, but I am not and I am the standard by which all forum members are judged, for sure.

What's more hilarious. Somebody that debates once in a while and chooses his battle, or a mid 20's customer service rep who spends his life on star wars forums getting pwned by a 16 year old? You're right Janus, this IS hilarious.

Translation: I am a part time debator who is on here almost all day and has averaged 3000 posts a year, but I somehow "chose my battles" and this makes me better than you. You are older than a teenager and yet "spend your life on Star Wars forums" somehow despite the fact that you are online perhaps four hours a week and work full time and have far more interests than this place. Never mind the hours upon hours I am here. And you work customer service. But somehow this has a bearing on your personal being and behavior. And meanwhile Escape is a little teenaged boy who I am supporting for unknown, possibly creepy reasons and he is better than you because I said so.

...Do you read any of this before you click "Submit reply"?

Oh wait, we have a special Escape for Dummies sample piece coming up!

Not at all. Palpatine circa Return of the Jedi or Dark Empire would annihilate any incarnation of Yoda, and hang his little green balls on any given mirror on the Death Star for decoration; such capabilities are hardly consistent with someone who inferior to his opponent.

Translation: I assert that Palpatine after the PT would crucify Yoda and hang his genitals up for show. Nevermind that I am specifically excluding PT era Sidious, or that my assertion sounds not only creepy but strangely biased. I refuse to give an inch, btw.

Not really, given your penchant for stumbling down the cosmic ladder of morality, Janus.

Translation: You are somehow morally fallible, and here's a witty, pseudo-mature way of saying it!

I'm sure Nai won't object.

Translation: I will misdirect this insult at Nai because he was pwning my ass earlier and he can reason better in his sleep then me.

While I appreciate your recitation of EoD's board policies and tips for new arrivals to use in debates, I've been to EoD and am quite familiar with how you all do business.

Translation: Oh, two forum bashes in a single sentence! And somehow straw-manning, which is a logical fallacy, is a "board policy" when applied to myself. Don't ask why; asking questions hurts my credibility.

Likewise, Janus, I would suggest that you all put an emphasis back on humor, so when you come to KMC after tucking your tail between your legs and running off only to return when the opposition has conceded the point (a result of which you clearly had nothing to do with) to engage in banter, your remarks aren't so easily deflected and turned against you.

Translation: If I attempt to be amused at your humor and unphased by your reasoning, I appear like the better man... erm, boy. I want to appear to be more mature than I really am, and by trying to belittle you I feel better, because I am threatened by people older than myself. But like all kids, I can easily play the victim when I don't get my way.

Concluding, all of this has yet to rain on my bright, sunny day ever since you grudgingly admitted that you were totally and completely wrong about Palpatine's status in the grand scheme of things, a level of maturity that I had not thought possible from one such as yourself. But it's only proof that we're making progress.

Translation: I will take my Sidious body pillow out for a dance and drinks tonight because I misread and misconstrued a completely self-evident post you made and twisted it to represent my own biased viewpoints because I am a sad little fanboy.

Not to assume, but I'm hoping that, in the future, we'll make progress regarding the Ancient Sith. Progress in the form of you not running back to EoD and ignoring my repeated requests as to proof that Marka Ragnos could WTFpwn Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious, Exar Kun, ect. without full use of his limbs.

Translation: More pseudo-mature diarrhea wile I attempt to belittle jokes and stances you have had in the past. Another reference to the infamous "without any limbs" argument which I can't even reference because it happened near on two years ago and was actually a joke but I can't accept that you make jokes. I believe everyone is transparent and completely truthful when they post hyperbole, which is why I believe in hyperbolic statements which support my character.

Trust me. I'm not, nor have I ever been, a threat to you when it comes to petty biases. You're very much in a league of your own.

Translation: More pseudo-mature diarrhea while I try to wrap up my bullshit post and feel better about myself. Now I have to go to bed because it's late and my mommy will ground me. Good thing I'm a teenager and I know it all now.

..

Wow, that's almost too much bullshit to translate. I needed shovels to get through the last half of it.

Nice try, kids.

As a teenager, I take offense to your teenage belittling!

We do know it all... on Sundays.

What? DS accusing OTHERS of Anceint Sith fanboyism? Of blowing Marka Ragnos’ scepter?

He was the most powerful sith lord of the ancient sith and was described as having tremendous physical strength and frightening grasp of the darkside. He turns Uiic into melba toast

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=10000364&highlight=Ancient+Sith+userid%3A97982#post10000364

I mean, Ulic only has stalemating Exar Kun. Ragnos has “TREMENDOUS physical strength.”
I give bodybuilders good odds on Ulic too.

And speaking of Marka Ragnos worship...

Possibly Tulak Hord, Darth Andeddu, but Ragnos is "It", in terms of uber powerful ancient sith. Thus far, only Luke and Sidious are above him..

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9634624& highlight=Ancient+Sith+userid%3A97982#post9634624

"This is INCREDIBLY poor reasoning Nai. I can get from point A to point B without using a car. The ancient sith couldn't get from point A to point B for a specific technique using just their extension of the force, so they created amulets that increased their power and did it for them. Really Nai, if you are intending to argue that the ancient sith COULD have done things without their tools, you need to stop posting right now, because the burden of proof is on you."

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9643354& highlight=Ancient+Sith+userid%3A97982#post9643354

"How do we know that Ragnos required the use of his scepter for this ability Escape? You do realize that someone who can pour that force ability into the scepter would more than likely be able to use it himself? Not to mention Nihilus' technique was simply amplified because he was a wound in the force, and Ragnos' scepter could elso give force abilities to non force sensitives."

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8799241&highlight=Nihilus+scepter+userid%3A97982#post8799241

It all makes sense now!

They built the machines to do the things they couldn’t do because they could already do them which allowed them to make the machines to do the things they couldn’t......*head explodes*

Advice for the future, DS: Let he who is without stupidity and easily exploitable weaknesses castthe first accusation.

Right now, I shall leave you rendered as much of a threat as the Black Knight from Monty Python; albeit a limbless torso bleeding on me would be a far greater threat than whatever childish counter you can cobble together.