Originally posted by Bentley
I understand better now what Id wants to do, however, if he drafts Jean's body but not her mind, shouldn't getting her mind from the astral plane be summoning a new character?
I would argue that Its not, since I drafted Jean Grey in its entirety. What am I pulling from the astral plane? A character I already paid for.
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I think most you will agree, that if I conceivably attained the Phoenix Force. The match is set, since 4 Heralds would never stand up an abstract level being. I understand that, no one in their right mind as a “participant”, would openly acknowledge it can be pulled off. Since you are inevitably admitted defeat.
On the other hand, I am aware that some of you might be confused or not convinced. If you have any questions, you can address them to me. I am even willing to submit some of the material that was sourced. However as far as continuing (in regards to the Phoenix): it can/cant pulled off or its valid/invalid, would only diminish this topic into circular logic.
In short I will continue to debate with out the Phoenix for 2 reasons.
A) If you agree, or favor it is well within possibility to attain it due to my prep. Then Typhus has no real argument to counter overwhelming opponent (not that he will agree this anytime soon >_>😉.
B) To avoid circular logic, and make an argument that The Rapture in his own right is formidable with out it.
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@Typhus - I place much trust in my intangibility because you have not even addressed it properly. And please refrain from using any feat done by Silver Surfer. You and I know, that there is a learning curve in regards to how the power of cosmic is wielded. If Surfer is regarded as, an Elite Herald. Much has to do for him showing his capability, if not Goober would have drafted Stardust, and attempted to quantify any feat done from any Herald including the Surfer. Goober is a smart man, and didn’t do so for obvious reasons.
In regards to Portal’s and the Astral Plane.
If you think one can simply open a portal and enter the astral plane, you are gravely mistaken. The astral plane is not accessible in such a manner, even for Dr. Strange who is known for opening portal’s to reach “X” location; “MUST” use the astral form to enter the astral plane. This holds true to some of the wielders of the power of cosmic, Surfer for instance has never entered the astral plane unless it was in astral form.
If you want to say other wise, then I am calling you out. Show me “ANY” scan where your choice of Herald’s has entered the astral plane through a portal, and not in astral form.
Harming my self on the Physical Plane.
First off, it’s a feat done by the Surfer. Now try submitting a feat done by any of your choices. Now you have to understand that, you cant possibly harm something that retains no physiology to pain. Not the same as Martian Manhunter or Vision who phase their molecules in order to become intangible. It’s a projection in it of its self, try making your shadow scream in pain?
I know Nate can harm an astral projection, but only because he can pull them directly from the astral plan as seen with Xavier encounter. Now do any of “YOUR”, heralds have a feat to quantify? I sincerely doubt so, or else you would have posted it already.
Regarding Astral Plan Amp.
Yes Cable was still having trouble with Hulk (so to speak), however the amp is significant. Cable makes reference to its last encounter, where he was pushing himself (T.O. was going ape shit), and needed assistance from Storm. Ultimately, Cable nearly died from over exerting himself in efforts to pull off a big feat. Here and now, he is shown to handle Hulk with out assistance, and with out overexerting himself (T.O is seen stable).
Originally posted by Bentley
I however do not see how all the fragments of the Phoenix Force belong to Jean's mind as a character. That would be like saying that an drafting an Imperiex probe could be used to use Imperiex in battle.
Jean - 4 Points.
Jean in it of its self, holds no Phoenix Force due to the rule set. Ok fine.
Jean Links her mind to all shattered conscious of herself. She is linking her own mind. Ok Fine.
The Fragments to Jean’s conscious happen to reside within the Fragments of the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force and Jean within those fragments are one in the same since the day they fully merged.
Bullshit right? No its explained in the official bio, it is stated in End Song. You even see faint personalities of both Jean and Phoenix in the phoenix fragments in War Song. And Jean as White Phoenix of the Crown, was the Phoenix Conscious that guided Vulcan in the “What IF”.
So I ask you, what happens when Jean reforms her shattered self?
Voting for Typhus. Id369's plan is absolute bullshit.
I agree with Typhus's statement:
Originally posted by Typhus
Anyway you look at it, you're gaining a character for your team that you didn't draft - that breaks the rule about summoned help. By that logic I can have my Heralds send a signal to Galactus to some and devour the battlefield along with your character. Oh, I'm not summoning, I'm calling their master.
Oh but id369 rants "I bought Jean Grey." Yeah, you bought Jean Grey's body for 4 points to use as part of your amalgam. Hell, I don't even think Evangel94 would allow you to buy Jean Grey (body and mind) for 20 points if you claimed that buying her came with the Phoenix Force.
Id369 doesn't even have a back up plan:
Originally posted by id369
But if this is hard to swallow, I shall put it out like this. If Evan comes in and deems this as a violation, I concede to the match entirely.
Seriously what the hell? I think Typhus answered best:
Originally posted by Typhus
So what, if you're instant win card doesn't work you quit? Huh... And Evangel doesn't NEED to come into this match and say anything because clearly its a violation of the rules. It failed in your match against King Kandy, so I have no idea why you are even trying it now. Besides, you don't even have Jeans mind, you only choose her BODY. You can't 'repair' something you never had to begin with.
So basically, if id369 is allowed to summon the Phoenix, then by all means Typhus can just call universal swallowing Galactus to his aid, though I'm sure id369 will still argue Phoenix is more powerful. 🙄
Things to keep in mind.
At the bare minimum with Nate Grey power unleashed, is at a Transcendent Stage (Skyfather level). At the maximum he is Dark Phoenix Level.
Why Transcendent?
If we use, Nate as a gouge to narrow down how much energy he can pump out. The best one would be when one of the Great Beasts (Ranaq, The Devourer) over loaded and obliterate himself in the processes. This is because it attempted to siphon the energy from Nate Grey.
The Great Beasts are Transcendent level?
Well above any Herald, but Skyfather is a safe bet. If you read the recent Omega Flight, Tanaraq (Another of its Kin), was the one that granted the “Wrecking Crew” power formidable enough to deal with Omega Flight with Beta Ray Bill.
At the maximum Dark Phoenix Level?
This comes from when his readings where clocked, and the writer confirming those readings.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7229/nate4iu1.jpg
Is their an explanation as to why Nate contains that much power?
Actually yes there is, and its not a coincidence or a fluke. It goes a bit more, then just having the authentic gene of his mother Jean Grey. Since birth Jean Grey in AoA was the host of the Phoenix Force. What Mr. Sinister was un-aware as to why Jean held such abruptly high energy readings. But wanted to harness this genetic material, to make the ultimate living weapon. Dark Beast comes to the same conclusion as Mr. Sinister. Ultimately Nate Grey, inherited his mother’s power. Incidentally he is also the descendent of the mutant Alpha, who’s power is passed on from generation to generation.
^^ - If you read the above, you can begin to understand where I am coming from.
Originally posted by id369
@Air Legend
Jean and Phoenix are merged. Heralds and Galactus share a master/herald relationship. The situation is greatly different from what try to make it out to be.I have a question, how the hell did you come to the conclusion that I summoned Jean Grey?
"So basically, if id369 is allowed to summon the Phoenix, then by all means Typhus can just call universal swallowing Galactus to his aid, though I'm sure id369 will still argue Phoenix is more powerful."
I forgot the word Force. Insert that after the word Phoenix in bold.
Ok,
I've been a little busy and haven't had time to check up on the match since I posted it. Id369, I let you draft Jean Grey (without the phoenix force) for 4 (four) points. 4 for Enhanced Meta level You simply draft regular Jean Grey (without phoenix force unless otherwise specified) and Nate Grey in an amalgam. I don't know why your trying to claim the phoenix as part of your drafted character here.
What your doing now is completely different from your match with King Kandy where you claimed you could use psychometry (ability to gain bits of memory by touching an object) by touching Jean Grey's body (gaining bits of her memory) and therefore contact the phoenix to come to the battlefield.
And you drafted Nate Grey in the herald level category which means he is restricted to the maximum power level the herald category allows (Silver Surfer/Superman/Planetary Threat). That goes for all singular characters higher than herald level that snuck into the herald category. Don't use KMC tiers.
With regards to write-ups, I don't disprove or approve of write-ups ahead of time unless you have specific question about a rule you want me to answer. Don't take my silence and/or my non-response as a sign off approval. I get a lot of PM's during tournament time, and if I don't respond, then it is because I missed your PM and it was buried under the myriad of PM's from other posters. It is your responsibility to PM me again if you don't hear from me.
I've written all the rules in extreme detail, ahead of time so competitors know what the rules are, and you should be able to create a write-up without breaking them. I can't monitor every match in real time so it's up to the competitors to police each other and call me in only when necessary.
Link to rules:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t477386.html
Regardless if you have the Phoenix force or not, you still have a powerful character. Just because you don't think you can win and place first doesn't mean you should quit. You should fight with what you have available to you. If you want to drop because you somehow felt you've been wronged, you are free to do so however your team will still be used in the last chance three-way matches regardless If want to argue for your team or simply stay silent.
-Evangel94
Originally posted by Air Legend
Is this a response to this line?"So basically, if id369 is allowed to summon the [B]Phoenix
, then by all means Typhus can just call universal swallowing Galactus to his aid, though I'm sure id369 will still argue Phoenix is more powerful."I forgot the word Force. Insert that after the word Phoenix in bold. [/B]
Originally posted by Evangel94
Ok,I've been a little busy and haven't had time to check up on the match since I posted it. Id369, I let you draft Jean Grey (without the phoenix force) for 4 (four) points. 4 for Enhanced Meta level You simply draft regular Jean Grey (without phoenix force unless otherwise specified) and Nate Grey in an amalgam. I don't know why your trying to claim the phoenix as part of your drafted character here.
What your doing now is completely different from your match with King Kandy where you claimed you could use psychometry (ability to gain bits of memory by touching an object) by touching Jean Grey's body (gaining bits of her memory) and therefore contact the phoenix to come to the battlefield.
And you drafted Nate Grey in the herald level category which means he is restricted to the maximum power level the herald category allows (Silver Surfer/Superman/Planetary Threat). That goes for all singular characters higher than herald level that snuck into the herald category. Don't use KMC tiers.
With regards to write-ups, I don't disprove or approve of write-ups ahead of time unless you have [b]specific
question about a rule you want me to answer. Don't take my silence and/or my non-response as a sign off approval. I get a lot of PM's during tournament time, and if I don't respond, then it is because I missed your PM and it was buried under the myriad of PM's from other posters. It is your responsibility to PM me again if you don't hear from me.I've written all the rules in extreme detail, ahead of time so competitors know what the rules are, and you should be able to create a write-up without breaking them. I can't monitor every match in real time so it's up to the competitors to police each other and call me in only when necessary.
Link to rules:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t477386.htmlRegardless if you have the Phoenix force or not, you still have a powerful character. Just because you don't think you can win and place first doesn't mean you should quit. You should fight with what you have available to you. If you want to drop because you somehow felt you've been wronged, you are free to do so however your team will still be used in the last chance three-way matches regardless If want to argue for your team or simply stay silent.
-Evangel94 [/B]
Wait I have a question, previously I used psychometry to attain the link with the phoenix.
This time I recreated Jean Grey in efforts to attain the mind (with out the Phoenix) do to the same as above.
Is it allowed yes or no?
Originally posted by Creshosk
Voting for id. Doesn't seem like summoning if they're just getting another part of the character that they already paid for.
But he doesn’t have that character. He has an amalgam with the body of that character...
Originally posted by id369
First off, it’s a feat done by the Surfer. Now try submitting a feat done by any of your choices. Now you have to understand that, you cant possibly harm something that retains no physiology to pain. Not the same as Martian Manhunter or Vision who phase their molecules in order to become intangible. It’s a projection in it of its self, try making your shadow scream in pain?
And I used a feat of Surfer because to my knowledge Morg and company have never had to fight an intangible enemy. The point remains, however, that they all share the same base power set and abilities.
Let’s look at the facts. You have ONE powerful character which you’re boosting via a summoning that’s questionable at best and flat out rule breaking at worst.
I have FOUR (count em) powerful Heralds all with power cosmic and unique abilities to boot. ALL my scans are examples of what I’m having my characters do. In universe proof.
Your scans are a bunch of different characters and a bunch or different feats from which you piece meal an ultimate badass. I’m sorry, but none of your astral projection scans show anything like the crazy abilities you claim they would now have from existing on two planes at once.
I don't think Id broke a rule but I don't believe he can do it. Jean's body isn't enough to start getting the Pheonix force back together. I had serious trouble understanding how Id's plan was supposed to work which is serious but unavoidable problem at extremely high power level.s
Voting for Typhus.
This is becoming very questionable and confusing with all rules that are trying to be circumvented. Without getting into the specifics of your method (which I am going to avoid commenting on unless it breaks a rule), is the phoenix force your trying to gain an entity (an actual being), or a power (ala Cytorak channeling juggernaut his power) that you're trying to use?
Because keep in mind the following:
1. You are restricted to the battlefield and your designated prep zones for the entire match.
2. You cannot summon characters to assist you in battle from other dimensions/planes of reality.
I recreated Jean Grey with out the phoenix force. With a thought or memory of Jean Grey, she is pulled from the astral plane, into a solidified psionic shell. Nate was able to recreate AoA Gwen Stacy, even though he was in the 616 reality.
I never left the battlefield. I paid 4 points for Jean Grey No Phoenix Force. Now I wish to recreate Jean, to attain Jean’s mind. I didn’t think I was braking any rules, since I drafted Jean Grey with No Phoenix.
I figured hell, I drafted Jean and only retained her body. I guess its no problem if I pull out her mind from the astral plane.
LOOPEHOLE
This Jean will suffer from amnesia. This is because her mind is split into a billion pieces.
Where are her other pieces of her mind located?
Within the fragments of the Phoenix Force. Each piece of the Phoenix Force, contains a fragment of Jean conscious.
What is the Phoenix Force?
A cosmic entity.
Why are the Phoenix and Jean shattered to a million pieces?
Because at last seen, they had merged. And last seen Xorn blew them up with a massive EMP.
Where are the pieces of the phoenix force?
Lingering across the galaxy.
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Ok so what did I do?
Recreated Jean.
Attempting to reform her conscious.
The conscious reside within the fragments of the phoenix force.
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My questions are?
What going to happen if you re-establish a link to those pieces of your conscious?
Did I break any rules?
Conception.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Conception
2. fertilization; inception of pregnancy.
The word you were looking for was concession. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/concession
