EVANGEL94's Final Slugfest Tournament: Round 3-2; Typhus vs Id369

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But when 4 people (myself, goober, id, and Trick) have had entire plans banned, something is wrong. Trick brought his on himself, but the other 3 could have been avoided, and should have as well.

Dude it's your fault for not doing anything about it and just deciding to quit. Stacks did what he had to do to get the win. And while I don't necessarily agree with the tactics he used to achieve this goal, he accomplished this because you backed down without a fight.

darthgoober quit before this dilemma happened, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't just concede the match because one strategy got invalidated. His team still had plenty of viable options to win the tourney, while the same can't be said about your team or id369's team.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Dude it's your fault for not doing anything about it and just deciding to quit. Stacks did what he had to do to get the win. And while I don't necessarily agree with the tactics he used to achieve this goal, he accomplished this because you backed down without a fight.

darthgoober quit before this dilemma happened, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't just concede the match because one strategy got invalidated. His team still had plenty of viable options to win the tourney, while the same can't be said about your team or id369's team.

Stacks didn't 'get the win.'

The votes were a shut out in Digi's favor. NO ONE voted stacks.

Just because he advances, doesn't mean he won.

I would continue the debate, with out the Phoenix force. But I am going to stand on what I previously mentioned.

If I was found braking any rule, I would concede the match no questions asked. It seems manipulating the mind of a character I drafted is out of the question, if its located in the astral plane. And I suppose communing with one self, is out of the prep/battlefield.

Good luck, Typhus. I will see what I can do, with my character in the 4th round.

Originally posted by Bentley
So I draft Hellboy and then summon the creature from which he has only the right arm. 😬

I don't know why people who based their entire strategies in loophole rules are so surprised of being kicked out of this, Digi asked about his ruling before at least, did you Id369?

It takes, ingenuity, and a whole lot of research to confine what you came up with. So raiding on a loophole did not seem so dangerous at the time. Especially when you are making an attempt to walk on the rule line.

But to answer your question, yes I did try to address my prep time and intentions before the tourney kicked off (during draft) during the tourney, and prior to this match.

Apparently its my job, to continuously pm until she gets back at me for a ruling.

I feel I should address you directly in the open Digimark.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

She approved it multiple times (all of which I posted), then banned it mid-tourney MB. Nothing more or less. I would know if my plan were still acceptable.[/i]

Excuse me?

You asked me if you could build tech during your prep using matter manipulation. I didn't have a problem with THAT, BUT I said you needed to buy adequate prep and resources to do what you wanted. The Doctor was already questionable to begin with, and I received complaints about him during the draft. So I tried to get you to pick someone else. But you argued with me, and convinced me he was in your own words a simple matter manipulator, psi, and tk user. I was trying to avoid this situation to begin with, but you completely (why is that I?) adamant about picking the Doctor. While questionable, I wanted to give you a change and I didn't think it would pose as much a problem as it how shown to be.

It wasn't that your idea wasn't acceptable, it was that what you claimed to do during your 15 minutes of prep deeply infringed on the instant tech rule. I don't have a problem with the Doctor using matter manipulation to create the raw materials for Reed and Lex to use to create tech in prep, but you were basically using the Doctor to download the specs from Reed and lex to just instantly create and assemble tech with a mere thought.

If I allowed that what would be the point of instant tech and prep? You claim its not fair to you, but do you really think its fair to everyone else if I let what you do go, and completely ignore the complaints of other users who bought massive prep time and laboratories to do their prep? It's true I felt bad for making the rules more stringent mid-game, but its better to get it out of the way now then let it go on. I even changed the rule to more of a compromise later on, but you still quit.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

And since you quoted my post before I had a chance to edit in the last section:
The problem, in my mind, seems to be that Evangel (and now yourself) are simply trying to squelch dissent rather than listening to it and adapting.

Are you kidding me? I've been listening to EVERYONE's opinions from day one. You may or may not be aware of what goes on behind the scenes of a tournament, but I deeply listen to what everyone has to say. For example, you have no idea how many people had objections with the Doctor despite your claims. They may not want to admit it in the open (and I don't want to post their PM's in the open because I feel if they decided to PM me, they probably wish to remain anonymous). I don't disregard anything. I give everything everyone says tremendous thought.

Why do you think I came so close to simply ending the tournament early on and calling it quits. The amount of opinions, questions, comments, and arguments to me was simply staggering. More so than in any other tournament I've ever run. But I got through it and moved forward.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
People were banned from voting for disagreeing with some of the rules.

I only recall banning two people from the tournament completely. Laminator_X was the first because I felt he was being disrespectful. I gave him a warning beforehand as well to stop. The second was TricksterPriest which you led a personal crusade for to get banned. Almost the entire roster of tournament participants agreed with your suggestion, TricksterPriest himself wasn't serious about competing anymore and insulted the tournament, and with that in mind I removed him from the tournament.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
They are told what to think in terms of how we should approach matches, whether its prep plans or drafted teams, rather than deciding on our own. There was no concession to those (I count 4 now) whose plans have been banned, either by a failure on the part of the participant or the director...no apologies, no compromises, not even a chance to make the case for the other side (I was never given a voice in my match's decision despite having laid my case out intelligently and respectfully, though apparently Stacks was).

You're being pretty generic with your statements about "4 people" being told what to think. Unless your specific and mentions names, then I won't know who you're talking about, and I am not about to speculate unless you name them.

I gave you plenty of time to make your case against changing the rules. But you simply decided to quit Digimark because you were "disenchanted" with the tournament. I asked you twice if you were sure, and you simply quit and decided not to argue or fight about it at all. Papa Smurph on the other hand fought deeply hard to get a rule clarification from me, and so I decided to clear up the rules.

Yes, I changed the rules during your match, but what your neglecting to mention for everyone to read is that I changed the rule AGAIN to something more of a compromise. I didn't ban your matter manipulation during prep, but I said to you and everyone else to be deeply aware of how much prep they have and if you could claim to do what you said in your 15 minute prep time without infringing on instant technology. Doctor could still mind link with reed and lex and have them assemble the components into a device (depending on what device and what they could assumble in 15 minutes), but the doctor could not have the device instantly appear and be ready to go.

You had the following characters: The Doctor, Thor, Ultimate Reed, Lex

You had the following abilities you purchased: Spying on your opponent, Power boosting, and Prep lvl 1 (15 minutes)

You had a chance as much as anyone to win this tournament, but the moment you lost the ability to instantly have tech appear you still decided to quit despite that compromise rule I created.

-Evangel94

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Originally posted by id369
I was under the impression, to exploit as much as possible to see what end result your selection could achieve. So I thought of a plan and made up a combo.
My Plan was to amass as much power as possible, to the point of asserting myself as an abstract level being.
Digi prep counter, with virtually no limit to what kind of tech he can come up with.
Goober - the most massive army I have ever seen in the history of any tourney. Not just a massive army but versatile, with herald level power.

It takes, ingenuity, and a whole lot of research to confine what you came up with. So raiding on a loophole did not seem so dangerous at the time. Especially when you are making an attempt to walk on the rule line.

But to answer your question, yes I did try to address my prep time and intentions before the tourney kicked off (during draft) during the tourney, and prior to this match.

I'll try to be polite and clear as possible with my response. Don't read this thinking I saying with a condescending tone. Think of it as me saying it with the utmost respect and as someone trying to be helpful.

---------------------

There's a very fine line between finding a great strategy and pick that doesn't break any rules, and actually outright breaking the rules.

When SpunkySmurph picked Mogo (a planet with the GL ring) for example, I thought that was hilariously funny yet still plausible pick that didn't really break any rules. No one could actually come up with any solid scan evidence that actually displayed Mogo being above Herald level. What I've seen of Mogo myself is him getting hurt by an asteroid, being attacked by Sinestro Corp members, and just floating around in space. No actual Herald level feats for Mogo. Plus Heralds themselves potentially can shatter planets. I gave it deep consideration, but in the end I could not in good conscience allow him with all the objections I received.

I read through your prep you submitted carefully. I worked with you on what I could without outright helping you and I thought your earlier write-ups with the Façade Virus and Nate Grey using telekinesis to break apart your opponent was very good. I had hoped your match with King Kandy would give you a better idea on how to re-work your strategy to focus more on the less questionable parts of your phoenix strategy, and more on the power of Nate Grey, facade virus, and your psi abilities that you posted for everyone to see.

But after your match with King Kandy you shifted your strategy from using the Façade Virus and Telekinesis to just completely trying to gain the phoenix power, and putting a whole lot less emphasis on Nate's other abilities. I think you would have done a lot better if you just debated and used what you had originally with Nate's psi, tk, and energy wielding abilities, and facade virus rather than just focusing on the phoenix aspect.

With regards to the phoenix, I thought your match would King Kandy (with whom you argued the same issues your facing now with Typus) would give you the hint to avoid the phoenix aspect and to focus on Nate Grey. I don't have a problem with psychometry and using it to understand objects better, but when you tried to use it to connect with the Phoenix that's when things start to get questionable and illegal in some respects. Your match with Psycho Gundam displayed that, not because of the phoenix, you won but because people felt Nate had the potential to defeat Juggernaut without any help from a phoenix power up, plus you debated well.

I could actually say a whole lot more and say some strategies your deeply overlooking with the selections you've chosen along with Nate Grey, but I can't. As tournament director, I have a responsibility to be fair and let everyone come up with their own legal strategies. I can't cross a certain line between making sure people understand the format effectively and downright helping someone win. However, I will say that, if you focus more on Nate and his natural abilities in debating then I think you would do a whole lot better. You don't need the phoenix power up to do well in this tournament.

Sincerely,
-Evangel94

Originally posted by id369
Apparently its my job, to continuously pm until she gets back at me for a ruling.

Id369, that's not what I meant at all.

You don't need continuously pm me about a ruling. I've responded to nearly every question you asked of me esp. in the early draft process However, if I do happen to miss something (I am human after all. I am not a robot) and I don't get back to you in a reasonable period of time, then just send me a polite private message reminder. It's happened with a few other contestants, and they have politely reminded me of a question I may have missed.

What I don't want to happen is people to assume that my non-response on the matter is a sign of approval. It is not.

Hope this clears it up.

Sincerely,
-Evangel94

Originally posted by Evangel94
I'll try to be polite and clear as possible with my response. Don't read this thinking I saying with a condescending tone. Think of it as me saying it with the utmost respect and as someone trying to be helpful.

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There's a very fine line between finding a great strategy and pick that doesn't break any rules, and actually outright breaking the rules.

When SpunkySmurph picked Mogo (a planet with the GL ring) for example, I thought that was hilariously funny yet still plausible pick that didn't really break any rules. No one could actually come up with any solid scan evidence that actually displayed Mogo being above Herald level. What I've seen of Mogo myself is him getting hurt by an asteroid, being attacked by Sinestro Corp members, and just floating around in space. No actual Herald level feats for Mogo. Plus Heralds themselves potentially can shatter planets. I gave it deep consideration, but in the end I could not in good conscience allow him with all the objections I received.

Don't you see that that's my main complaint? You have people who have this idea that they can just complain to get the other partricipant's legitimate picks banned just by complaining. And you gave in. Rather than actually being fair you give in just because people complained.

They were incorrect in their assesment, and their fears were not legitimate. Its an underhanded strategy that appearently works. Complain to you enough and you can get your opponents tossed from the tourny, thus giving you a clear pathway to the crown rather than actually participating in the tournament.

ITs a rat-bastard thing to do, but appearently it works. You took away Metron's Chair, based on King Kandy complaining about it?

You took away Mogo based on Joey Stacks complaining about it? And then again when Joey Stacks complained about Digi's prep you changed the rule mid tourny after Digi had attempted to use the strategy in two prior matches.

They don't even have to present a decent argument as to why they should have their way. From what it sounds like they just spam your pm box with complaints and you'll jump to.

Is that how a person is supposed to win this tournament? Complian loudly enough? This then becomes not a debate tournament, but a tournament of who can ***** the most.

Yet you ban other people who express their concerns. This is why there is this appearence of favoritism. Kandy or Stacks complain they get their way. Other people complain you tell them too bad?

Noone voted for stacks, yet he advanced in his match vs Digi. Everyone thought Digi's strat was legit. So why was it an issue?

Digi gets all the votes, Stacks advances... Don't you see anything MAJORly wrong there?

Originally posted by Creshosk

Noone voted for stacks, yet he advanced in his match vs Digi. Everyone thought Digi's strat was legit. So why was it an issue?

Digi gets all the votes, Stacks advances... Don't you see anything MAJORly wrong there?

Those are my only problems. I thought Evangel was playing 'hands off' in the tourney; like she did with Trick.

She specifically said "I will not be your judge; KMC will be."

KMC thought that Trick's strategy was against the rules. No one thought that Digi's was.

We all read the rules, we all read the matches, shouldn't it be up to the judges, then, to decide what strategies follow those rules(Digi), and which are just totally out of the realm of realism (Trick)?

Digi wins his match in a shut out, and Stacks advances because he bitched and moaned enough.

If that's all the tourney takes; maybe you do have a shot at the title, Cresh.

Originally posted by Soljer
Stacks didn't 'get the win.'

The votes were a shut out in Digi's favor. NO ONE voted stacks.

Just because he advances, doesn't mean he won.

He might not have "won" by your standards, but officially he did because Digimark forfeited. Digimark's forfeit wasn't a noble act. It came off as rather cowardly. Even without his instant tech strategy he could have won, but chose to be a quitter.

I reiterate: I don't think darthgoober would have quit if one of his strategies got eliminated.

One thing I've learned about this tourney is people should quit trying to find loopholes and just build a solid all-around team. Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm pretty sure Evangel wouldn't have allowed Jean Grey (with body and mind) for even 20 points if she knew id369 would claim she came with the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Air Legend
He might not have "won" by your standards, but officially he did because Digimark forfeited. Digimark's forfeit wasn't a noble act. It came off as rather cowardly. Even without his instant tech strategy he could have won, but chose to be a quitter.

I reiterate: I don't think darthgoober would have quit if one of his strategies got eliminated.

One thing I've learned about this tourney is people should quit trying to find loopholes and just build a solid all-around team. Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm pretty sure Evangel wouldn't have allowed Jean Grey (with body and mind) for even 20 points if she knew id369 would claim she came with the Phoenix Force.

Do you not comprehend the principles behind his actions? It's not so much as he could not win, but why compete in a tournament where rules can be changed on a whim by the director based on invalid complaints? I would have personally done the same as he did, being that he already used the strategy in other matches and no one complained or said his plan was invalid. To suddenly compete for a (fourth?) time and have his plan be outlawed is preposterous.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Do you not comprehend the principles behind his actions? It's not so much as he could not win, but why compete in a tournament where rules can be changed on a whim by the director based on invalid complaints? I would have personally done the same as he did, being that he already used the strategy in other matches and no one complained or said his plan was invalid. To suddenly compete for a (fourth?) time and have his plan be outlawed is preposterous.

Originally posted by Creshosk

jeebus, there's so much wrong with your post it needs to be addressed point-by-point:

"So despite the lack of valid evidence to support their case you still gave in to the underhanded tactic of complain about it enough to get you to go against valid logic and evidence anyway?"
-- You think there is a lack of valid evidence. Others think there IS valid evidence. Evangel listened to both sides and disagreed with your assessment. Deal with it.

Don't you see that that's my main complaint? You have people who have this idea that they can just complain to get the other partricipant's legitimate picks banned just by complaining. And you gave in. Rather than actually being fair you give in just because people complained.
-- Just by complaining? I doubt that would work. You need to have legitimate complaints that show Evangel's initial rules being circumvented. Joey must've been more convincing that Digi's prep violated instant prep than your argument that it doesn't.

They were incorrect in their assesment, and their fears were not legitimate. Its an underhanded strategy that appearently works. Complain to you enough and you can get your opponents tossed from the tourny, thus giving you a clear pathway to the crown rather than actually participating in the tournament.
-- How correct their assessment is is subjective. So, it wasn't underhanded to those who consider their assessment correct. If you believe incessant complaining works, be Evangel's guest and continue on complaining...don't see it doing much for you so far.

ITs a rat-bastard thing to do, but appearently it works. You took away Metron's Chair, based on King Kandy complaining about it?
You took away Mogo based on Joey Stacks complaining about it? And then again when Joey Stacks complained about Digi's prep you changed the rule mid tourny after Digi had attempted to use the strategy in two prior matches.
They don't even have to present a decent argument as to why they should have their way. From what it sounds like they just spam your pm box with complaints and you'll jump to.
-- the decency of their argument is subjective. There are people who agree with them and some who agree with you. Evangel even stated she received MANY complaints from MANY posters.

Is that how a person is supposed to win this tournament? Complian loudly enough? This then becomes not a debate tournament, but a tournament of who can ***** the most.
- You've complained quite a bit, how's it been working so far?

Yet you ban other people who express their concerns. This is why there is this appearence of favoritism. Kandy or Stacks complain they get their way. Other people complain you tell them too bad?
- Who did she ban? Trickster...who everyone was giddy to ban? Or someone else who was violating terms of debate? yeah, 2 cases which pretty much everyone agreed Evangel was in the right to ban, who many of you supported banning and now you use that against Evangel?

Noone voted for stacks, yet he advanced in his match vs Digi. Everyone thought Digi's strat was legit. So why was it an issue?
"Digi gets all the votes, Stacks advances... Don't you see anything MAJORly wrong there?"
-- Evangel SAID she was going to advance Digi had he not quit, or did you fail to read that. You know, it's pretty hard to advance someone who is no longer in the tourney. 🙄

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Do you not comprehend the principles behind his actions? It's not so much as he could not win, but why compete in a tournament where rules can be changed on a whim by the director based on invalid complaints?

Invalid to whom? To you they may be invalid. However, Evangel clearly stated there were numerous complaints from many people. To them, it was a legitimate complaint. Why is your OPINION any more valid than theirs?

Originally posted by Soljer

She specifically said "I will not be your judge; KMC will be."

Evangel has specifically stated that she would've advanced Digi had he not quit. That seems like to me like letting KMC being judge.

Also, I have noticed that Digi hasn't really attempted to argue why his prep DOESN'T violate the instant tech rule.

Rather, his argument has been "I've used that strat in prior battles without it being an issue, so for it to be brought up now is unfair."

But that argument is weak imo. Just because prior opponents don't bring up a flaw or illegality does not mean one doesn't exist.

If Digi feels his prep doesn't violate the instant tech rule, than he should make his case for it and allow the board to see how convincing it is.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Also, I have noticed that Digi hasn't really attempted to argue why his prep DOESN'T violate the instant tech rule.

Rather, his argument has been "I've used that strat in prior battles without it being an issue, so for it to be brought up now is unfair."

But that argument is weak imo. Just because prior opponents don't bring up a flaw or illegality does not mean one doesn't exist.

If Digi feels his prep doesn't violate the instant tech rule, than he should make his case for it and allow the board to see how convincing it is.

He already did. An entirely accurate and resoundingly convincing one.

Perhaps you should pay more attention.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Apparently it WAS a valid complaint. Just because none of the previous competitors decided to argue against it, doesn't mean it's not illegal. Almost all the matches I've read has had a contestant call out one of the "flaws" in his opponent's plan that wasn't previously mentioned, and in this case, he (Stacks) argued to the point that the technique got invalidated. Digimark could have put up resistance to Stacks's argument and convinced Evangel that his strategy was legal, but instead he just quit, a blatant attempt to make the director look bad and gain the forum's condolences.

As a simple game thing, there was no point playing with a handicapped team against other good debaters with not-handicapped ones. Being a "quitter" when you save yourself from unneeded agony seems to me like a smart move to do. Besides, its Digi's choice to do, he could forfeit even if he was winning the whole thing, same thing here.

Originally posted by Soljer
He already did. An entirely accurate and resoundingly convincing one.

Perhaps you should pay more attention.

Also, by reading Evangels post, she states that she has voiced her concern with Digi over the Doctor before the tourney even started...so this wasn't completely out of the blue as some portray it.