Originally posted by Etrigan
Yeah, Frank has a chance, Crossbones is just better in all areas of H2H.
Yeah I would expect him to be better than Frank but really what evidence do we have that he beats Frank 8/10? Him fighting a weakened Cap, he did fight Cap with full SSS but apprently he used prep.
What else hes wrecked Winter Soldier? I tell you what BW gave Winter Soldier a good fight but this is what he did to BW and she had the drop on him.
Im pretty sure though Winter Soldier beat the crap out of Crossbones but I dont know exactly what happened.
Originally posted by Etrigan
But did Punisher beat WS in pure H2H? I think you're forgetting this fight is purely H2H, no prep or weaponry. Another factor that gives Crossbones the edge; Frank is at his best with both of those things.
Er bro that wasnt my point Frank didnt beat WS purely H2H...but he did kick the crap out of Black Widow, when WS was fighting BW she was actually a challenge. Also I think WS has beaten Crossbones before. Maybe in aother fight Frank could do better against WS.
Its a bit ABC logic but...meh.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er bro that wasnt my point Frank didnt beat WS purely H2H...
Precisely. My point is that Frank hasn't got prep or weapons. With those, he could beat Crossbones. An hour of prep would probably do. But, Frank is NOT used to beating villains on Crossbones' level with nothing but his H2H skills. Not to mention the fact that Crossbones completely outweighs him in all other factors, especially strength. FRank just isn't good enough without his weapons to take on a master H2H combatant and win (which relates to my points on him and DD.) He may be able to hang with Crossbones for a while, which gives him a chance, but he can't win the majority against someone who can go toe-to-toe with Cap if he has trouble with Daredevil even bloodlusted (see Means and Ends.)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er bro that wasnt my point Frank didnt beat WS purely H2H...but he did kick the crap out of Black Widow, when WS was fighting BW she was actually a challenge. Also I think WS has beaten Crossbones before. Maybe in aother fight Frank could do better against WS.Its a bit ABC logic but...meh.
I agree wth you Phantom. All these characters, are humans (as opposed to superhumans) who are highly skilled in unarmed combat and are peak human in attributes. They are all so close ability wise that no h2h fight will be a sure thing. So Ireckon that Punisher always has a good chance against Crossbones.
Punisher is nowhere as near peak human as Crossbones is, or Black Widow. The pure truth is that Punisher operates best with weapons, I think that's safe to say. The only times he's beaten DD has been with weapons (I'm using DD as my example most of the time.) And Crossbones is stronger than DD, and more of a killer. Better at H2H? Debatable. But it's safe to say both of them are better than Frank in H2H; Crossbones is stronger as well.
Originally posted by Etrigan
Punisher is nowhere as near peak human as Crossbones is, or Black Widow. The pure truth is that Punisher operates best with weapons, I think that's safe to say. The only times he's beaten DD has been with weapons (I'm using DD as my example most of the time.) And Crossbones is stronger than DD, and more of a killer. Better at H2H? Debatable. But it's safe to say both of them are better than Frank in H2H; Crossbones is stronger as well.
I'm not saying that Crossbones won't win -out of 10 fights he probably would win more. But it wouldn't be a 5 second curb stomp. Punisher's h2h skills shouldn't be underestimated. True he is exceptional with weapons, but that shouldn't detract from his excellent unarmed fighting skills.
I don't think it would be a 5 second curbstomp at all, Punisher would put up a good fight, and yes he is a good unarmed fighter. Probably nearly equal to Crossbones, but Crossbones is very strong and very fast, close to peak human. That, added to Crossbones' H2H skills, would be too much for Punisher to handle in the majority.
Neither can I, to be honest, but I'd imagine it's just below Cap's lifting strength, which is a max of 800 pounds if he uses all his effort.
Can't find Punisher's lifting strength, but on several occasions I've seen him lift a beefy man above his head with no much effort. So even so, he's pretty strong. The Marvel Directory tells us "The Punisher possesses the normal human strength of a man of his age, height, and build who engages in intensive regular exercise."
Originally posted by Etrigan
I haven't got scans, but I have definitely read fights between them where he's stalemated Cap.
Ok but the two examples you gave where one without SSS and one while he was hallucinating.
Originally posted by Etrigan
Wiki says he can go toe-to-toe with an SS Cap. He's stalemated Diamondback as well, I think.
Bro i read wiki and I think it says he has goen toe-to-toe with Cap but it does not say SSS, so obvoulsy that includes the examples where he hasnt had SSS. Like I said I know he has fought Cap with SSS but apprently he had prep.
Diamondback aint top tier.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Bro i read wiki and I think it says he has goen toe-to-toe with Cap but it does not say SSS, so obvoulsy that includes the examples where he hasnt had SSS. Like I said I know he has fought Cap with SSS but apprently he had prep.
Yeah, maybe you are right. But I still don't see why that means Punisher can easily beat Crossbones. What are your actual grounds for Frank being better than him in H2H? Or even being able to beat him in H2H for the majority?
Originally posted by Etrigan
Yeah, maybe you are right. But I still don't see why that means Punisher can easily beat Crossbones. What are your actual grounds for Frank being better than him in H2H? Or even being able to beat him in H2H for the majority?
Nah I dont think he can easily beat Cross. I just think maybe 8/10 is too much with the lack of evidence, maybe 6/10.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Bro I did post the scans of him fighting Black Widow and basically humiliating her. 😬
...Bullseye's beaten Black Widow, and I would say he humiliated her as well. Isn't it general opinion that Frank is a better H2H than Bullseye? *sigh*
I would say that the only person I can really think of who is similar level of H2H as Crossbones who Frank has stalemated or beaten (I can't remember how their fight came out in the end) is Silver Sable.
