Originally posted by jinzin
yeah Crossbones has punked out DD, and Bullseye, stalemated Cap when he had the SSS, and thrashed Winter Soldier.
What he's done in h2h combat speaks volumes above what Punisher has done IMO.
Exactly my point. I can't find any real good H2H showings for Punisher; weapons are his specialty, and this is PURELY H2H.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Learn to read scans until then dont bother wasting my time.I didnt say he did. Pay attention....I said he was winning....
ARGHHHHH!!!!!! banghead
Sorry I don't see the same delusional bias Punisher fanboy nonsense that you do, I see Punisher tagging Widow once and disarming ONE bracelet.... Not both, and not winning.
I also don't see BW getting the "drop" on Punisher, I see Punisher shooting first.
Originally posted by Etrigan
Guns, explosives, even knives.
Bro Wolverine fights with his claws 90 perecent of the time that doesnt mean when he uses his claws he doesnt show good H2H skill because even if you are using weapons the skills that you need in H2H are still similar. So when Cap uses his shield in a fight we discredit it because he used his shield. Ive posted numerous fights with him using his barehands juist because there are weapons in it does not go against it.
Hell we have a MA ranking thread lots of the fights there are not completely unarmed.
Originally posted by Etrigan
Yeah, I sort of did have doubt about Phantom Zone's opinion on that fight, firstly because Frank didn't really beat her,
Well heres the thing, help me out here. Were did I say he beat her? Do you need to beat an opponent to show you are superior to them or even if the fight doesnt end if you are winning doesnt that indicate you are better? My point he was winning eventhough he got her by suprise.
Originally posted by Etrigan
let alone humiliate her, and also he shot at her first, so didn't he technically get the drop on her?
Yes he did, but think about what you just said. What your telling me is that because Frank got the drop on her, that means BW didnt get Punsiher by suprise and try to kick the gun out of his hand?
The point is she suprised him afterwards...she tried to kick the gun out of his hand, got hit over the head at least twice, got one of her widow bites exploding in her face and Punisher didnt even get hit once. 😐
Your first point makes no sense, either because of the way it's written or because there's not really any way to challenge the fact that a character can be more experienced with weaponry than without it, which was what I said applies to Punisher. I have yet to see him beat a character as strong as Crossbones in H2H. Without prep.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er bro that wasnt my point Frank didnt beat WS purely H2H...but he did kick the crap out of Black Widow
"Kicking the crap out of" generally means "beating."
Yes he did, but think about what you just said. What your telling me is that because Frank got the drop on her, that means BW didnt get Punsiher by suprise and try to kick the gun out of his hand?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone Yes he did, but think about what you just said. What your telling me is that because Frank got the drop on her, that means BW didnt get Punsiher by suprise and try to kick the gun out of his hand? The point is she suprised him afterwards...she tried to kick the gun out of his hand, got hit over the head at least twice, got one of her widow bites exploding in her face and Punisher didnt even get hit once.[/B]
This doesn't matter. It's not a H2H fight. Whether he could disarm her or not, he HAD WEAPONRY and he was PREPARED, obviously as he shot at her first. Without that, he could not do as well against someone like Crossbones, who is stronger and faster than Black Widow, probably as well as being a better H2H opponent!
Originally posted by Etrigan
Your first point makes no sense, either because of the way it's written or because there's not really any way to challenge the fact that a character can be more experienced with weaponry than without it, which was what I said applies to Punisher. I have yet to see him beat a character as strong as Crossbones in H2H. Without prep.
Again the skills used in fights with weapons are similar to the skills needed in unarmed combat are they not? When Wolverine uses his claws in fight that means he doesnt show H2H skills?
Like I said we have an MA ranking thread and lots of the scans used as evidence have weapons in them so when a person uses weapons in an unarmed fight we descredit because weapoins are used? We dont because even in the fight with BW, Frank Castle still had to be fast enough to react to BW, his speed and reflexes are not superhuman he got it from his MA training and therefore the fight with BW shows how fast his reflexes are eventhough he got suprised.
Originally posted by Etrigan
"Kicking the crap out of" generally means "beating."
and he wasnt winning? How many times did Punisher get hit in that fight?
Originally posted by Etrigan
This doesn't matter. It's not a H2H fight. Whether he could disarm her or not, he HAD WEAPONRY and he was PREPARED, obviously as he shot at her first.
Again so what your sayins is because he suprised her, that means she didnt suprise him and get smacked in the face twice and get one of her weapons destroyed? Thats basically what you're saying. Also as stated before eventhough it was not purely H2H it showed Franks reflexes because evenhough he was suprised he was still fast enoguh to react to BW.
Originally posted by Etrigan
Without that, he could not do as well against someone like Crossbones, who is stronger and faster than Black Widow, probably as well as being a better H2H opponent!
Well the thing is Crossbones is in teh same tier as BW, but I dont see how him having a rifle gave him that much of an advantage against BW.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again the skills used in fights with weapons are similar to the skills needed in unarmed combat are they not? When Wolverine uses his claws in fight that means he doesnt show H2H skills?
Ah, I see what you mean. But Wolverine using his claws and Cap using his shield are close-ranged weapons (except when Cap throws the shield, but that's beside the point). Punisher having a gun doesn't require H2H skills.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well the thing is Crossbones is in teh same tier as BW, but I dont see how him having a rifle gave him that much of an advantage against BW.
Well as you would say, it meant that he got the drop on her, right? Surprised her with a shot.
Originally posted by Etrigan
Ah, I see what you mean.
Thank you.
Originally posted by Etrigan
But Wolverine using his claws and Cap using his shield are close-ranged weapons (except when Cap throws the shield, but that's beside the point). Punisher having a gun doesn't require H2H skills.
Bro he smacked her over the head with it at least twice....that the samething as Wolverine using his claws or Cap using his sheild, exacept that Frank just improvised.
Originally posted by Etrigan
Well as you would say, it meant that he got the drop on her, right? Surprised her with a shot.
Bro im aware the he suprised her with a shot....but what happened afterwards. The fcat that he suprised her with a shot does not negate the fact that BW suprised him and ended up eating the butt of his rifle....at least twice. Did Frank Castle bring the rifle to shot somebody or beat them over the head with? He was prepared to shot somebody but not to beat them over the head with the rifle he improvised on the fly. Afterwards the rifle was used in H2H and it did not give him a huge advantage.
Now I understand that this fight is purelly H2H but as mentioned before the skills needed to wack somebody over the head with a rifle are similar to unarmed combat and Frank isnt even trained in the art of hitting with a gun.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Now I understand that this fight is purelly H2H but as mentioned before the skills needed to wack somebody over the head with a rifle are similar to unarmed combat and Frank isnt even trained in the art of hitting with a gun.
Exactly, there are no skills to striking somebody over the head with the butt of a rifle. I'm guessing there is probably some technique involved in army training or such things, but generally it does not require any particular skill. However, if Frank is to be fighting Crossbones without a rifle, or any form of club or staff, or anything for that matter (that is what H2H is, no weaponry) then he will require some degree of skill, due to Crossbones being bigger, stronger, faster than him, and on a higher level of H2H. So why is whether Frank has rifle-butt training or not at all relevant?
Originally posted by Etrigan
Exactly, there are no skills to striking somebody over the head with the butt of a rifle. I'm guessing there is probably some technique involved in army training or such things, but generally it does not require any particular skill. However, if Frank is to be fighting Crossbones without a rifle, or any form of club or staff, or anything for that matter (that is what H2H is, no weaponry) then he will require some degree of skill, due to Crossbones being bigger, stronger, faster than him, and on a higher level of H2H. So why is whether Frank has rifle-butt training or not at all relevant?
Because if he can smack somebody over the head with a but of the rifle which takes no skill, its going to be easier for him to use that which he has more skill in ie his barehands.
Using the rifle wasnt really an advantage it was in his hands at the time so he thought "what the hell", also remember it shows his reflexes she attempted to kick it out of his hand but he turned the table on her. If he can do well against a skilled opponent that suprised him, hes going to do even better when he knows they are there.
Originally posted by Etrigan
He doesn't have anything to go "what the hell" with here.
Yeah it does, why would you drop the gun and use your barehands when its going to take more time? The time it takes to drop the gun he could have been taken out.
Originally posted by Etrigan
It will be easier to use something that he has more skill with, his bare hands, but Crossbones has more skill with his bare hands than Punisher.
Most likely. The point of the scans with Pun and BW were not to say that Punisher wins the majority you just wanted other examples of him doing well against skilled opponents. Yes it was not purelly H2H but the skills used in that fight could aplly to unarmed combat.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah it does, why would you drop the gun and use your barehands when its going to take more time? The time it takes to drop the gun he could have been taken out.
He doesn't have a gun in the first place in this fight...? So he has nothing to go "what the hell" with...? So why would he drop a gun if he doesnt have one? 😕