Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Exar Kun become uber powerful by learning Sadow's teachings? That would include that badass sith spell. Sadow is more powerful than he is given credit for..
Sadow is very powerful. But being a remarkable repository of dark side knowledge doesn't necessarily make one a being of superior ability.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Even though multiple Force users have been lauded as potential versus match winners because of their access and mastery of Force knowledge. That statement does not make sense.
No one said that prodigious knowledge of the Force is anything to sneeze at, but it doesn't necessarily make one superior. For example, Master Yoda has had eight centuries of experience, formal training, and time spent mastering the Force. Yet it is the common consensus that he is no match for present day Luke Skywalker, who has had about forty years of indoctrination in the Force from scattered and remote sources, due to the Jedi Purge.
True, skill and raw power do come into play. But depending on the gap in knowledge and the gap in power, etc., superior knowledge can win the day. Luke may be the exception (considering he is perhaps the strongest Force user in SW media), but other force users can be overcome through superior knowledge if they lack the raw skill and raw power to compensate. Luke doesn't have to learn anything because he can HAX the Force and do whatever he wants.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
True, skill and raw power do come into play. But depending on the gap in knowledge and the gap in power, etc., superior knowledge can win the day. Luke may be the exception (considering he is perhaps the strongest Force user in SW media), but other force users can be overcome through superior knowledge if they lack the raw skill and raw power to compensate. Luke doesn't have to learn anything because he can HAX the Force and do whatever he wants.
Certainly. The disparity between characters in all categories has to be taken into consideration.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I agree. In retrospect, I was hinting more at the fact that previous versus matches had been concluded solely on knowledge disparity when physical advantages were inconclusive.
That would make sense. If two combatants possess similar raw ability, experience, et cetera, but one had a clear advantage in terms of Force knowledge and mastery, it would only be logical to assume that that person would emerge victorious.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
In that case, Sadow wins. Booyah!
If it were determined that Sadow too closely rivals Vader in every other category; that would require a bit more persuasion and evidence. As has been noted, his greatest demonstration of power without the assistance of Force-enhancing technology and Sith arcana is hurling a single brick.
And his legacy includes inducing star explosions, massive illusions which fought on multiple planets, tons of dark side relics he made, including the amulets which can clearly frag about anything in existance including powerful sith spirits....
Again, if Vader and Sadow's stack up in saber combat and physical prowess is deemed inconclusive (Which it is), then by your own admission knowledge must be the factor used. Sadow wins in knowledge and prestige.
If he can fit it in the pokeball.
Nah, basically the amulets are always present in the comics when he's shown, so they cannot be divorced from any representations of power he shows. You can note that these same amulets amplify Exar Kun's hatred and thus making him stronger, but this doesn't in any way take away from Sadow. It just adds to his power. Vader doesn't have this benefit, and he can't block man-sized plus obliterating blasts with his iron fist.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Who cares?
We do. Because, in the past, such notations have eluded those who would embellish and fellate the Ancient Sith; dependency on Force enhancing arcana to perform incredibly powerful feats of power is a clear sign that natural ability is not enough.
Sadow isn't going to go into battle naked and without his toys. If he did, we couldn't substantiate his powers without them, so the fight would be moot.
We can substantiate his powers relatively well. Without use of Sith arcana, he goes from orchestrating interstellar devastation to hurling a single brick; a clear sign of intense lack of natural ability.
Sadow with his amulets is considerably powerful.
No one denied that he isn't, but that is the expression: with his amulets. Obviously, in raw power, he does not compete with Vader at all.
We do. Because, in the past, such notations have eluded those who would embellish and fellate the Ancient Sith; dependency on Force enhancing arcana to perform incredibly powerful feats of power is a clear sign that natural ability is not enough.
Again, read above. Having aiding amulets is smart, not a dependency. Dependency would be having the amulets removed and being incapable of basic or impressive Force feats. There's no precedent for this. If you feel the ancient Sith are "weaker" for having the Force equivalent of HGH, well... so what? They have it. It applies. You can't substantiate them without it, nor can you even begin to point out just how much it aids their every action, so leave it lie, Escape.
We can substantiate his powers relatively well. Without use of Sith arcana, he goes from orchestrating interstellar devastation to hurling a single brick; a clear sign of intense lack of natural ability.
No, you can't. When he hurls a brick, the amulet sparks as the amulets do every single time the wielders use the Force:
So yeah, having amplifying artifacts present at all times does NOT quantify him as an inferior Force user. If anything, it means he's smart and powered up, and has a natural advantage in combat over someone who's just using the Force naturally. You can't clearly indicate when Sadow's abilities are aided, boosted, or otherwise supplemented by the amulet in the source material. So how can you conclude he's a wuss without them? You can't. We've been through this before.
No one denied that he isn't, but that is the expression: with his amulets. Obviously, in raw power, he does not compete with Vader at all.
Substantiate this using source materials.
Oh wait, you can't.
Vader takes Sadow, with a few difficulties. The little we've seen of Sadow in combat doesn't at all flutter the ancient Sith. Illusions and causing Nova's with his ship doesn't at all translate to superior combat prowess (which Vader possesses in abundance).
Plenty of evidence on Vader's combat abilities, very little on Sadow's. Vader should win.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
... Right. So absence of overwhelming combat prowess = decisive victory for the villain who is the main character upon which the series is founded?That's logic for you.
Sadow does amulet blast. Vader blocks it with having more books, movies, and comics about him.
Vader blocks it by demonstrating that he has a very strong grasp of the Jedi arts as they relate to combat. It has nothing to do with the frequency of his appearances in the SW mythos. Sadow's illusions are not combat effective in a close combat fight.
Causing novas with his ship? Not combat effective, can't be applied in this situation. The one time we see him fight, he was nowhere near as impressive as Vader.
Now Sadow was no doubt powerful and knowledgable in the sith arts, but Vader seems to have him beat when it comes to the martial aspects of those arts.