Darth vader vs naga sadow

Originally posted by IKP
Given how one of Sadow's underlings was capable of using her powers to single-handedly enslave the people of an entire planet, and later wipe them all out with a single Force attack, Vader gets stomped, badly.

I've seen this be stated numerous times, first by Publius in that argument of his that you provided, and multiple times by yourself, since. Is this explicitly stated, or are you arguing that correlation = causation?

Taken by Force" (Star Wars Galaxy Magazine #8 specifically notes the following:

[QUOTE]Get one thing straight: The dark side of the Force and Sith magic are not interchangeable, and the comics have made a firm distinction between the two. "The Sith and their abilities were hinted at in Tales of the Jedi and Kevin J. Anderson's Jedi Academy trilogy," Cooper says. "There was a connection with Exar Kun, who was Force-adept and had a strong will to seek out Sith knowledge. Kun added his knowledge of Sith magic to his arsenal of weapons."

Originally posted by Publius
Any given display of preternatural abilities is tainted by the fact that the Sith Lords were actively using Sithian magic, which required no effort at all to use (The Freedon Nadd Uprising).

There we go.

Originally posted by Janus Marius

I don't. But it was an ability to drain life. He only used it on Byss and didn't say, drain the Jedi Temple or anything like that. He didn't sap the rebel base. Is that definitive proof that he cannot. Of course not. It's context. Just because Obi-Wan did not use the force to open a beer bottle is not proof that he is unable to do so.

Whether he can or cannot is not indicated by what he did to Byss. So this isn't really a great example, considering Palpatine showed a potent use of Sith Lightning in close quarters combat; he has a showing.

Sadow simply doesn't have the showings. We could assume a lot, and if we did I don't see how that couldn't be extended to Vader seeing as he was Sidious apprentice for just over 2 decades. Context in this case, isn't really a good argument for Sadow. I'll explain this further below.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
In addition to that, she overcomes Vrook and Force pushes him like a ragdoll. Meanwhile, she has the ability to pretty much own the Jedi Masters using solely the Force, as the cut-for-lack-of-development-time material supports. But simply because she didn't pop Sion's head like a melon or otherwise crush the Exile into a ball after draining her from the Force doesn't exclude her ability to do so. Intent can make force users hold back, or else Kun would have went into the senate chamber lighting up people with the amulet blasts.

I think the narrative pretty much explains why Kreia didn't do that to character X and Y. The Exile and Sion - it must be said - were different kinds of animals. Even considering Kreia powerful TK I don't see why it should overcome the Exile and Sion given that they were supposed to be among the best duelists of that era.

Intent shouldn't be part of the discussion when we're talking about life and death battles here. The Sith war, was no game. Neither were the battles Kreia, Sion and the Exile were involved in. So I can't see how intent is a hindrance there.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Period. So unless Vader's entire body is somehow more resistant and durable than the sith wyrm, he's toast.

Can you explain how a wyrm is comparable to a powerful dark side force user like Vader? Do you honestly believe such crude attacks are unblockable? Any force power that manifest itself physically in such a conspicuous manner, surely should be blockable. It manifest itself no differently than Sith lightning.

As a powerful force user, shouldn't Vader be able to form a defense for a physical attack? Or does this power operate through the force itself like a force drain, if it's merely physical you would have to come up with a good reason why Vader can't block it.

Originally posted by Janus Marius

In addition to multiplying his rage "hundred thousand times" and on the second page it states that it doubles with "each pulse of anger". You see that he's all but leveling the wall with a single blast, and indeed two pages later the entire room is reduced to rubble and flames.

And this is what Kun did with the amulet without any training or in-depth knowledge of its abilities. Sadow created it. He knows it better than anyone. He could just spam blasts and wreck Vader who will have to try and close the gap and hope Sadow is somehow weaker and slower with his blade.

As I said earlier, we know enough about the force to recognize that such attacks are mere crude manifestations of the force. We know for a fact that any physically manifested attack can be blocked with the force. There are techniques which have no defense which attack through the force itself with no physical manifestation like Nihilus' drain, but such a crude attack?

It's basically a form of kinetic energy, we know that can be controlled via the force. Unless Sadow is stronger than Vader in the force (seriously doubtful), he isn't going to overcome Vaders defenses with such attacks.

My last point is that; I hope you know all that talk of anger is hyperbole. How do you even quantify anger? Sure we've seen people go into a berserk rage. But can you honestly say that Anakin was more angry than Luke in ROTJ or that the young Hett who lost his father was more angry than Obi Wan in TPPM? I mean anger is not quantifiable, so those multiplications are pure hyperbole.

Sadow simply doesn't have the showings. We could assume a lot, and if we did I don't see how that couldn't be extended to Vader seeing as he was Sidious apprentice for just over 2 decades. Context in this case, isn't really a good argument for Sadow. I'll explain this further below.

I think the narrative pretty much explains why Kreia didn't do that to character X and Y. The Exile and Sion - it must be said - were different kinds of animals. Even considering Kreia powerful TK I don't see why it should overcome the Exile and Sion given that they were supposed to be among the best duelists of that era.

Can you explain how a wyrm is comparable to a powerful dark side force user like Vader? Do you honestly believe such crude attacks are unblockable? Any force power that manifest itself physically in such a conspicuous manner, surely should be blockable. It manifest itself no differently than Sith lightning.

As a powerful force user, shouldn't Vader be able to form a defense for a physical attack? Or does this power operate through the force itself like a force drain, if it's merely physical you would have to come up with a good reason why Vader can't block it.

As I said earlier, we know enough about the force to recognize that such attacks are mere crude manifestations of the force. We know for a fact that any physically manifested attack can be blocked with the force. There are techniques which have no defense which attack through the force itself with no physical manifestation like Nihilus' drain, but such a crude attack?

It's basically a form of kinetic energy, we know that can be controlled via the force. Unless Sadow is stronger than Vader in the force (seriously doubtful), he isn't going to overcome Vaders defenses with such attacks.

My last point is that; I hope you know all that talk of anger is hyperbole. How do you even quantify anger? Sure we've seen people go into a berserk rage. But can you honestly say that Anakin was more angry than Luke in ROTJ or that the young Hett who lost his father was more angry than Obi Wan in TPPM? I mean anger is not quantifiable, so those multiplications are pure hyperbole. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Let me guess. You want us to quantify "100,000 times" too? It was powerful enough to reduce a sith wyrm to nothing, and to make a hole in a temple. Notice how I'm not choosing a victor here. Vader's force mastery is superior to Sadow, while Sadow has the broader knowledge of the dark side. However, if Sadow unleashes his amulets, Vader is dead.

And if kun and bane could learn a shit load of knowledge from 1 holocron, i don't see why vader can't.

Seeing that while he may be receiving training from palpatine to become more powerful in the force but to an extent where palpatine won't make him supremely powerful, i don't see why vader wouldn't turn to other means of studying the force to surpass his master which is what he has been clearly trying to do.

Anyways the rise and fall of darth vader states he has a single ancient sith holocron.

Oh yes, because having a generic or even specific ancient Sith holocron makes you better than a living ancient Sith, especially when you spend most of your days not being able to use Sith Lightning and otherwise being the Emperor's *****.

Anyways, DS (Surprisingly) refuted Allankles' confusion. As for Escape, I'm going to let you just think about your stance. I've made my case and quite well. There's no sense in me arguing against your prejudice. That's just not productive.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
As for Escape, I'm going to let you just think about your stance. I've made my case and quite well. There's no sense in me arguing against your prejudice. That's just not productive.

Here we go again; this is becoming rather droll, don't you think?

Janus, between you and I, there is only one of us who has a reputation for a calm, persuasive discussion and documented attempts to reason. The other usually drafts comical, but petty and vicious diatribes attempting to bash or intimidate those who disagree into submission. Each and every one of us here is aware which traits belong to whom, so you're not fooling anybody here by pointing fingers and crying out "prejudice". Likewise, you have been irretrievably pro-Ancient Sith since your original tenure here, and it's undeniable. You vehemently argued that Marka Ragnos could solo and WTFpwn the likes of Luke Skywalker, Yoda, and Palpatine without "use of all of his limbs", and as I have pointed out to you a dozen or so times since you're return, you've been (apparently) knocked on your ass so hard, scrambling for a shadow of suggestion of superiority for the Ancient Sith that the most staunch and biased of the pro-Ancient Sith elite (Deception and Darth Sexy) feel that it is pointless to try to argue in their favor anymore. Likewise, Darth Sexy can provide testimony to the fact that I have argued in favor of Sadow and his ilk on occasion when it is clear that SW_LeGenD and Allankles attempted to undermine their status.

It is ridiculous to try to paint it out that I'm out to get the Ancient Sith and that I'm plagued with "prejudice". Ultimately, only one of us here has ever been proven to be utterly and completely blinded when it comes to them, and if it will so interest you, I can go back and post examples of your own prejudice, for all to see. Perhaps that will jog your lapsing memory?

I appreciate the time to think. You can either 'refute' my prejudice-ridden arguments or don't bother responding to them at all. It doesn't make a bit of difference. But it would be to your benefit to not whine and point fingers when it comes to bias (I don't rely on the absence of proof clause like a shield and attempt to cast doubt on otherwise sound conclusions). And you say I nitpick, lol.

This will be my final post on the subject until we both feel inclined to continue the argument (which will require a rebuttal from you). And remember: (even though I've already sent six bajillion private messages with the same topic) I'm always willing to discuss this whole thing with you.

The ball's in your court. 😄

Escape is correct. As far as I remember, he has been 100% objective, and that's saying a lot when you look at all of the people on this forum present and past. I try to be the exact same way which is at times, difficult. In this situation I'm on your side Janus but it's hilarious how you have to add the snoody comment "surprisingly" in regards to my debating skills. Just because I don't have the time nor the patience to go in circles with you doesn't make you any better than me in regards to debating.

Escape:

I don't run around rampantly clogging up threads with my opinion every single time Sadow or another Ancient Sith is brought up, and none of my arguments are arguments from personal opinion (Like you), or just plain ol' argument via baseless assertions (Like you). Even when the proof is right in front of you and the conclusion already drawn, you look the other way and either bring up some other minor detail and blow it up or attack me personally as being faulted, unreasonable, an old guy picking on a mere kid, some ancient sith fanboy, a dick, a sarcastic dick, and not making any arguments worth reading.

It's amazing how quickly you turn to personal attacks and well-poisoning when you can't beat me in a debate.

You know, I don't agree with LS on a lot of things, yet at least he has the decency and maturity to try and separate the debate from personal attacks, even when it gets heated. You've never known such grace, and considering you're barely old enough to shave, we should all know better than to expect any real rationality out of you.

So ball's in your court. Either grow up and stop slinging personal insults and attacks, or expect me to challenge your ridiculousness every time it rears its ugly, misshapen head.

DS:

I had a big of trouble understanding you at first, but that's because you had your head halfway up Escape's ass. You say he's been "100% objective", but you wouldn't know the meaning of the phrase if it came up and fathered your children. You don't "try" to be anything other than antagonistic and when you're not riding the fence you're hopping on the opposite side just to get a response. It's few and far apart that you make any good points, and when you are challenged, like Ivalice, you tuck tail and run or just act like you debate part time or something, besides spending more time on these threads than most of us. So really, I was surprised that you made any good points at all, even if I had brought them up previously.

You tend to just act like a controversial ass because it makes you the center of attention. And that is apparently something you require. Thankfully Escape is just irrational and hateful of the Ancient Sith/KotOR-era Force users/TotJ-era Force users/Anyone not associated with the movies or post-movie works because they are a threat to his favorite character.

So you two go and have fun and enjoy each other, because it's pretty endearing to see you guys support each other. I think they have a term for that kind of bond...

Oh right.

Can't we all just get along?

DS:

I had a big of trouble understanding you at first, but that's because you had your head halfway up Escape's ass. You say he's been "100% objective", but you wouldn't know the meaning of the phrase if it came up and fathered your children. You don't "try" to be anything other than antagonistic and when you're not riding the fence you're hopping on the opposite side just to get a response. It's few and far apart that you make any good points, and when you are challenged, like Ivalice, you tuck tail and run or just act like you debate part time or something, besides spending more time on these threads than most of us. So really, I was surprised that you made any good points at all, even if I had brought them up previously.

You tend to just act like a controversial ass because it makes you the center of attention. And that is apparently something you require. Thankfully Escape is just irrational and hateful of the Ancient Sith/KotOR-era Force users/TotJ-era Force users/Anyone not associated with the movies or post-movie works because they are a threat to his favorite character.

So you two go and have fun and enjoy each other, because it's pretty endearing to see you guys support each other. I think they have a term for that kind of bond...

Oh right.

Escape is correct. As far as I remember, he has been 100% objective,

Very nice IKC, I was wondering when you were going to saunter in here and save your girlfriend.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Oh yes, because having a generic or even specific ancient Sith holocron makes you better than a living ancient Sith, especially when you spend most of your days not being able to use Sith Lightning and otherwise being the Emperor's *****.

And since when not being able to conjure up lightning equates to being a useless pawn as you are seemingly trying to imply?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Escape:

I don't run around rampantly clogging up threads with my opinion every single time Sadow or another Ancient Sith is brought up, and none of my arguments are arguments from personal opinion (Like you), or just plain ol' argument via baseless assertions (Like you).

You don't? Well, this must be a recently acquired trait of yours, and that's excellent; we're making progress. However, I must object to the notion that you base "none of [your] arguments from personal opinion (like me) and baseless assertions (like me)", because as I see it, there is no logical evidence or a distant cousin thereof suggesting that Marka Ragnos could "WTFpwnz0rs!!1one!" Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious, Exar Kun, and Darth Revan by himself and without full use of his limbs. Unless, of course, there has been such evidence around all this time and it has managed to elude me. Confident in your objectivity as you seem to be, you will no doubt have no problem providing the proof for your earlier claims.

Even when the proof is right in front of you and the conclusion already drawn, you look the other way and either bring up some other minor detail and blow it up or attack me personally as being faulted, unreasonable, an old guy picking on a mere kid, some ancient sith fanboy, a dick, a sarcastic dick, and not making any arguments worth reading.

Come now, Janus. Pot. Kettle. Black. Must you be a hypocrite every single step of the way? You've been implying and calling me a Sidious fanboy since the metaphorical dawn of time, is it not within my rights to retaliate when I see a startlingly prominent fondness for the Ancient Sith from you? You make it sound as though I call you such without reason, and you need only look to the posts you've made and the posts you continue to make -- the fact that you have yet to address anything about the Ancient Sith in our discussions and private messages -- it's almost as if you're trying to ignore it. If you're not a fanboy, surely you can explain why you posted the things you did. Likewise, I have said that you're a grown adult who has demonstrated a remarkable lack of patience when dealing with someone substantially younger than you, not that you are "an old guy picking on a mere kid". I'm hardly blameless in this spat, but come on. You aren't exactly the embodiment of patience and understanding.

It's amazing how quickly you turn to personal attacks and well-poisoning when you can't beat me in a debate.

Personal attacks? Like, what? Implying that you're a fanboy of the Ancient Sith? Well, you've been calling me a Sidious-fanboy forever, so I'd say that they cancel each other out. Saying that some of your own members at EoD consider you to be a failed administrator? Harsh as it sounds, that's not an insult or a cleverly disguised bait. That is the truth. Whether you actually are or not is up for debate. Saying that you've went from 'fellating' the Ancient Sith to having the most faithful and zealot of their fanboys concluding "Ehh... it's best not to argue in favor of them anymore"? That would be a fact.

Anyways, you've been bringing this up quite often anymore, how 'I can't beat you in a debate'. Are you becoming a bit insecure, Janus?

In contrast, snapping off at people who disagree, posting offensive pictures, and insinuating that two users are gay just because one happens to prefer the other's tactics rather than yours? That might be considered trolling and personal attacks, and from the looks of it, that's more your territory than mine.

You know, I don't agree with LS on a lot of things, yet at least he has the decency and maturity to try and separate the debate from personal attacks, even when it gets heated. You've never known such grace, and considering you're barely old enough to shave, we should all know better than to expect any real rationality out of you.

Your propaganda skills are prominent as ever. You make yourself seem almost angelic. But, once again, you're not fooling anyone here, Janus. Lightsnake and I handle much things differently, but don't imply that you somehow act the same way as him, either. You haven't exactly proven where I have been so cutthroat with you, and I have already demonstrated that -- within this post -- you've been outrageously rude and hostile. Saying that I've "never known such grace" doesn't seem to make it true, as it doesn't seem to be my reputation to fly off at the handle and attack people on a whim. You seem to be fabricating a backstory for me; perhaps proving it would make it seem more realistic.

So ball's in your court. Either grow up and stop slinging personal insults and attacks, or expect me to challenge your ridiculousness every time it rears its ugly, misshapen head

Janus, my friend, you're becoming unintentionally comical. You haven't provided a shred of proof that I am "slinging personal insults and attacks". Making me out to be some kind of ruthless monster doesn't change facts. Of the two of us, only you have a reputation for unwarranted bashing, via hateful words or rude pictures, and personal attacks. I have no ill will towards you at all. In all actuality, I'm the one who has been trying to understand the method to your madness. I've proposed that we have a calm question and answer session, but it doesn't seem to interest you. You've ignored the multiple private messages and only respond to points that you feel you can address, rather than take all of the bullets like the man you imply that you are. That you would go on to call Darth Sexy and I "gay" is funny, especially since you said he was my girlfriend a few weeks ago. Far from your finest hour. Why, Janus? Because he and I share radically different view points and still manage to respect one another? That he considers me objective, when you never have had the honor? Given your constant assertions how I can't "beat you in a debate!!1one!", it carries the symptoms of extreme, petty jealousy.

It's so great that all the Antediluvians are coming back! 😄

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Thankfully Escape is just irrational and hateful of the Ancient Sith/KotOR-era Force users/TotJ-era Force users/Anyone not associated with the movies or post-movie works because they are a threat to his favorite character.

Well, trudging my way through all of the bitterness of your diatribe, I would point out that none of the Ancient Sith and other Force users you mentioned are a threat to Gilad Pellaeon. He is, by far, their superior in all things.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So you two go and have fun and enjoy each other, because it's pretty endearing to see you guys support each other. I think they have a term for that kind of bond...

Oh right.

I will respond with your own statement, as (I'm told) nothing is more embarrassing than having someone else curbstomp you with your own words:

Originally posted by Janus Marius
It's amazing how quickly you turn to personal attacks and well-poisoning when you can't beat me in a debate.

You know, I don't agree with LS on a lot of things, yet at least he has the decency and maturity to try and separate the debate from personal attacks, even when it gets heated. You've never known such grace, and considering you're barely old enough to shave, we should all know better than to expect any real rationality out of you.

And, for the grand finale! This is an excerpt taken from Janus's private forums, EoD. A question was posed to him:

Janus, do you think Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever?

...Janus's response:

Very interesting, direct question.

I suppose he is, in a manner of speaking. He certainly is the most influential Sith of his time, controlling more space and temporal power than any Sith before him, and he has the most powerful cult of personality of any Sith. He has the honor of being the only Sith the people of the galaxy obeyed willingly.

Personal power, he was top-tier in the PT era. As of DE, apparently he had been upgraded (Although to be fair, even Luke as of DE displays the ability to crush an AT-AT without any apparent effort. Such an act would make Yoda look inferior) and became one of the most powerful Sith in the Force, with knowledge and time to implement that knowledge.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have what is considered to be a direct victory. I would like to thank Janus for playing and putting up an excellent show, after all these years. Now, we know why they have stopped arguing for the Ancient Sith at EoD. It's because they have seen the light, acknowledged the light, and would rather keep themselves locked in the dark.

Light always finds a way, folks, it casts a strong glare.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Very nice IKC, I was wondering when you were going to saunter in here and save your girlfriend.

You were? Really? So whenever Janus makes a post you wonder when I'm going to do the same even though it's been about six months since I've looked at this pit?

Ladies and gentlemen, we have what is considered to be a direct victory.

Wow you're stupid.

Very interesting, direct question.

I suppose he is, in a manner of speaking. He certainly is the most influential Sith of his time, controlling more space and temporal power than any Sith before him, and he has the most powerful cult of personality of any Sith. He has the honor of being the only Sith the people of the galaxy obeyed willingly.

Personal power, he was top-tier in the PT era. As of DE, apparently he had been upgraded (Although to be fair, even Luke as of DE displays the ability to crush an AT-AT without any apparent effort. Such an act would make Yoda look inferior) and became one of the most powerful Sith in the Force, with knowledge and time to implement that knowledge.

Emphasis mine. I thought I'd highlight the parts where he makes clear that he's not saying what you claim he's saying.

Perhaps you've forgotten to read since last we've been around. I mean, as far as I can tell you wouldn't have to read too much, given that you can repeat the same drivel ad nauseum and pass it off as debate without an Antediluvian around.

And no, Escape. The reason we've generally stopped talking about these kinds of things is because this well has been dry for quite awhile. As well, unlike you, we're not this guy:

Originally posted by IKC
Wow you're stupid.

Sheesh. First, Janus with his "girlfriend" and "gay" jabs, and IKC returning with the time tried "your stoopid!!11" remarks? I guess witty banter is in short supply at EoD.

Emphasis mine. I thought I'd highlight the parts where he makes clear that he's not saying what you claim he's saying.

Janus went from thinking that Sidious was among the weakest Sith Lords to admitting that he is one of the most powerful. Emphasis mine.

Perhaps you've forgotten to read since last we've been around. I mean, as far as I can tell you wouldn't have to read too much, given that you can repeat the same drivel ad nauseum and pass it off as debate without an Antediluvian around.

And the predictable questioning of the opponent's reading comprehension. IKC, new material, please. You'd think that spending over a year in internet exile would give you plenty of time to think of something new for those few occasions you crawl out of your hidey-hole.