Darth vader vs naga sadow

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Again, read above. Having aiding amulets is smart, not a dependency. Dependency would be having the amulets removed and being incapable of basic or impressive Force feats. There's no precedent for this. If you feel the ancient Sith are "weaker" for having the Force equivalent of HGH, well... so what? They have it. It applies. You can't substantiate them without it, nor can you even begin to point out just how much it aids their every action, so leave it lie, Escape.

I feel that the Ancient Sith are "weaker" because subsequent Sith Lords, such as Darth Nihilus and Darth Sidious, were able to use the Force on a greater scale, despite the fact that neither of them relied or made use of Sith magic or Force enhancing arcana. They performed such feats based on natural ability, and managed to eclipse the feats and powers of those who made use of much more than natural ability. Likewise, no one denied that Sadow's reliance on "aiding amulets" is anything but smart, but it does not indicate that Sadow is more powerful than Vader.

No, you can't. When he hurls a brick, the amulet sparks as the amulets do every single time the wielders use the Force:

So yeah, having amplifying artifacts present at all times does NOT quantify him as an inferior Force user. If anything, it means he's smart and powered up, and has a natural advantage in combat over someone who's just using the Force naturally. You can't clearly indicate when Sadow's abilities are aided, boosted, or otherwise supplemented by the amulet in the source material. So how can you conclude he's a wuss without them? You can't. We've been through this before.

Are you serious? Sadow relied on his amulets to hurl a single brick? That is beyond ridiculous. And "a natural advantage in combat over someone who's just using the Force naturally"? Right, either of the two previously mentioned Sith Lords -- who rely singularly on natural ability -- would consume Sadow, swallow him entirely, and then shit him out into the nearest, cheapest toilet on whatever planet they happen to be fighting on. That Sadow always has them on and they "spark" whenever he uses the Force would be an excellent indicator that they have an enhancing effect on him all the time.

Substantiate this using source materials.

Oh wait, you can't.

Actually, I can. Vader is still considered eight-tenths of the Emperor's own strength and, according to the Visual Dictionary, maintains an incredibly high amount of midichlorians. That he demonstrates feats well in excess of Sadow's own (minus Sadow's opulent warship), even when Sadow is being naturally aided by Force enhancing arcana, flat out nails the coffin shut on the delusion that the alchemist is somehow on par -- much less superior -- to Vader in raw ability.

Your move, Janus.

... that still isn't really proof that he could block it with his hand.

Originally posted by Allankles
Vader blocks it by demonstrating that he has a very strong grasp of the Jedi arts as they relate to combat. It has nothing to do with the frequency of his appearances in the SW mythos. Sadow's illusions are not combat effective in a close combat fight.

Causing novas with his ship? Not combat effective, can't be applied in this situation. The one time we see him fight, he was nowhere near as impressive as Vader.

Now Sadow was no doubt powerful and knowledgable in the sith arts, but Vader seems to have him beat when it comes to the martial aspects of those arts.

You should learn to read. Perhaps pictures will help.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
... that still isn't really proof that he could block it with his hand.

Not that this is especially relevant, but Luke Skywalker's power was enough that he was able to absorb blasts from an AT-AT as of Dark Empire. Don't see why it's entirely out of question for Vader, who is proficient in the art of absorbing energy; out of curiosity, how do the amulets do against Force users?

But, back on topic, I could just as easily say that Vader might, y'know, hurl his lightsaber at Sadow the second the fight begins and decapitates him.

Edit: I just found out one of Vader's guantlets contains on of Kaan's invincible Sith amulets. We're gonna have to continue this tomorrow, folks. Good night.

I feel that the Ancient Sith are "weaker" because subsequent Sith Lords, such as Darth Nihilus and Darth Sidious, were able to use the Force on a greater scale, despite the fact that neither of them relied or made use of Sith magic or Force enhancing arcana. They performed such feats based on natural ability, and managed to eclipse the feats and powers of those who made use of much more than natural ability. Likewise, no one denied that Sadow's reliance on "aiding amulets" is anything but smart, but it does not indicate that Sadow is more powerful than Vader.

Firstly, Sadow's massive cross-galaxy illusions, Sith alchemy, and star-destroying dark-side ship rank pretty high in force creations and powers throughout the series. Later Sith apparently don't use the same amulets, but they may rely on other artifacts and most certainly they build on the works of Ragnos, Sadow, and other sith lords for sure.

Vader most certainly does not compare to even an amulet aided Sadow.

Are you serious? Sadow relied on his amulets to hurl a single brick? That is beyond ridiculous. And "a natural advantage in combat over someone who's just using the Force naturally"? Right, either of the two previously mentioned Sith Lords -- who rely singularly on natural ability -- would consume Sadow, swallow him entirely, and then shit him out into the nearest, cheapest toilet on whatever planet they happen to be fighting on. That Sadow always has them on and they "spark" whenever he uses the Force would be an excellent indicator that they have an enhancing effect on him all the time.

1. So what if they're on all the time? That means he's throwing around more power. Force users can survive quite a bit of beatings before they stumble or knock out. In combat while forcing Ludo Kressh out of the chamber and eventually down the stairs of the crypt, Sadow casually ripped out head-sized bricks and blasted Ludo in the scalp enough to make him fall down on his ass. That's a lot better than Vader throwing office chairs and printers at Luke, especially when he's in combat.

It's all win-win, really. Who cares if it always works. It always works. It enhances his powers, and he can do all sorts of neat shit with it. The amulet blasts alone are a carte blanche to win most up-close fights, the illusions, enhanced force strength (Ludo crushes a statue using these same amulets and physically breaks a sword capable of piercing a Hutt's durable flesh and furthermore holding up to lightsaber sparring), etc., etc. The rest is just icing. What is Vader going to do? Throw chairs? Take apart a bridge?

Actually, I can. Vader is still considered eight-tenths of the Emperor's own strength and, according to the Visual Dictionary, maintains an incredibly high amount of midichlorians. That he demonstrates feats well in excess of Sadow's own (minus Sadow's opulent warship), even when Sadow is being naturally aided by Force enhancing arcana, flat out nails the coffin shut on the delusion that the alchemist is somehow on par -- much less superior -- to Vader in raw ability.

Your move, Janus.

Percentile figure taken out of context + personal biased opinion of a character's relative power which ignores actual source material = baseless assertion. Congrats! You've proved nothing!

Just a note: Vader also has a Sith amulet beneath his right glove (Source: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties)

How can we define its powers though?

Originally posted by Gideon
Not that this is especially relevant, but Luke Skywalker's power was enough that he was able to absorb blasts from an AT-AT as of Dark Empire. Don't see why it's entirely out of question for Vader, who is proficient in the art of absorbing energy; out of curiosity, how do the amulets do against Force users?

But, back on topic, I could just as easily say that Vader might, y'know, hurl his lightsaber at Sadow the second the fight begins and decapitates him.

Edit: I just found out one of Vader's guantlets contains on of Kaan's invincible Sith amulets. We're gonna have to continue this tomorrow, folks. Good night.

That post was aimed at Allankles. His reasoning for Vader being able to do it was because of his "knowledge" in the force... I know that wasn't his literal point. But still.

Do you think Corran Horn could possibly absorb an amulet blast? Isn't energy absorption one of his special talents (A ridiculous one)?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You should learn to read. Perhaps pictures will help.

Strange that these Sith never used such attacks on force users. And that's Exar Kun. Why didn't Sadow blast Ludo Kressh? All he could do was hurl a brick. This doesn't prove anything.

I don't see how you can compare those creatures to the chosen one , who - as Vader - had grown stronger in the dark side of the force. Those creatures are defenseless, I don't think Vader is (he has the dark side).

Originally posted by Janus Marius
How can we define its powers though?

It's an Ancient Sith Amulet....shouldn't that be enough to clarify its power?

It's an Ancient Sith Amulet....shouldn't that be enough to clarify its power?

I've never seen anything to indicate that it's an ancient Sith amulet, much less one exactly like or similar to the ones used in GAofS. For this to be excepted, we need to know more.

Strange that these Sith never used such attacks on force users. And that's Exar Kun. Why didn't Sadow blast Ludo Kressh? All he could do was hurl a brick. This doesn't prove anything.

Strange that Sidious never used force drain on Yoda, or that Yoda didn't just crush Sidious' windpipe. Strange that Traya didn't just butcher the Exile using her superior powers with TK, or that Luke Skywalker doesn't just use a lightside power to cut Caedus off from the Force like they did to Ulic. Strange stuff doesn't happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't. You don't argue from absence as proof of absence. It's nonsensical.

I don't see how you can compare those creatures to the chosen one , who - as Vader - had grown stronger in the dark side of the force. Those creatures are defenseless, I don't think Vader is (he has the dark side).

Considering you didn't even directly address my post, show any knowledge of the source material, and used italics for 'Chosen One', I think I'm wasting my time with you.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]I've never seen anything to indicate that it's an ancient Sith amulet, much less one exactly like or similar to the ones used in GAofS. For this to be excepted, we need to know more.

Basically, it's Abel's explanation for why the Glove of Darth Vader is such a powerful artifact, a neat little retcon

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Strange that Sidious never used force drain on Yoda, or that Yoda didn't just crush Sidious' windpipe. Strange that Traya didn't just butcher the Exile using her superior powers with TK, or that Luke Skywalker doesn't just use a lightside power to cut Caedus off from the Force like they did to Ulic. Strange stuff doesn't happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't. You don't argue from absence as proof of absence. It's nonsensical.

How do you know that the technique Sidious used on Byss is the same as what Kreia used on the Jedi Masters? Which superior powers in tele kinesis? I can't remember Kreia ever showing TK except when she was using the 3 lightsaber on Malachor 5. A wall of light technique would be useful on Caedus, but that would be anti-climatic.

Way to miss the point entirely though. Kreia has used potent force powers on force sensitives in close quaters combat. Luke has done the same. Sidious has done the same. Sadow hasn't - which brings us back to the original premise.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Considering you didn't even directly address my post, show any knowledge of the source material, and used italics for 'Chosen One', I think I'm wasting my time with you.

I directly addressed your post and I am aware that you're trying to hype Sadow off of the accomplishments of Kun. I've read the comic had it on my cpu (don't know if I have it now).

Kun was simply a greater Sith than Sadow. Those who can't do teach - how's that saying relevant here, you might ask? I'm merely pointing out that we can't use what Kun did as an indication of what Sadow could do.

Beyond that Kun's most impressive feats with the force were not exercised on force sensitives, which perhaps hints at the idea that those who could command the force with great authority perhaps had a defense for such phyisically manifested attacks.

IIRC, it's described as an ancient Sith amulet that Palpatine gives him.

Basically, it's Abel's explanation for why the Glove of Darth Vader is such a powerful artifact, a neat little retcon

Lovely. Well, let's make a conditional argument around it then:

If Vader's amulet is similar to Sadow's and can either replicate blasts or absorb them, and if he even knows how to use it this way, then it stands to reason the amulet blasts themselves may be not so much a deciding factor in the battle.

There. Until the abilities of Vader with this amulet are further substantiated, that argument stands.

How do you know that the technique Sidious used on Byss is the same as what Kreia used on the Jedi Masters?

I don't. But it was an ability to drain life. He only used it on Byss and didn't say, drain the Jedi Temple or anything like that. He didn't sap the rebel base. Is that definitive proof that he cannot. Of course not. It's context. Just because Obi-Wan did not use the force to open a beer bottle is not proof that he is unable to do so.

That make sense to you?

Which superior powers in tele kinesis? I can't remember Kreia ever showing TK except when she was using the 3 lightsaber on Malachor 5.

In addition to that, she overcomes Vrook and Force pushes him like a ragdoll. Meanwhile, she has the ability to pretty much own the Jedi Masters using solely the Force, as the cut-for-lack-of-development-time material supports. But simply because she didn't pop Sion's head like a melon or otherwise crush the Exile into a ball after draining her from the Force doesn't exclude her ability to do so. Intent can make force users hold back, or else Kun would have went into the senate chamber lighting up people with the amulet blasts.

A wall of light technique would be useful on Caedus, but that would be anti-climatic.

But very effective and dramatic, IMO. Stripping Jacen of the Force seems like the Jedi thing to do, versus fighting him in saber combat. Again, it's not a huge debate whether or not Luke can do it considering he's got the Superman equivalent of Force control, but why he didn't. Again, ability is not determined solely by a being's not doing it during canon events.

I directly addressed your post and I am aware that you're trying to hype Sadow off of the accomplishments of Kun. I've read the comic had it on my cpu (don't know if I have it now).

No, actually you posted something totally off base about Sadow doing other, unrelated powers which I hadn't originally been arguing as why he wins. My most straight-forward position was Sadow made the amulets, the amulets make boom, Vader go boom. Period. So unless Vader's entire body is somehow more resistant and durable than the sith wyrm, he's toast.

Kun was simply a greater Sith than Sadow.

Prove this conclusively using sources, not conjectures.

Those who can't do teach - how's that saying relevant here, you might ask? I'm merely pointing out that we can't use what Kun did as an indication of what Sadow could do.

Perhaps you should step back and reread what I'm saying-- the amulets make the blasts and enhance one's anger, which itself fuels their force powers by extension. Kun being able to do this after picking up Sadow's amulet without any training indicates that it's inherent of the amulet itself, outside of oh, just using common sense. It's not like he was blasting away before he picked up the amulet, and the amulet just made his hand heavier or something.

Learn to put things in context instead of making blanket statements based on your own opinion, please.

Beyond that Kun's most impressive feats with the force were not exercised on force sensitives, which perhaps hints at the idea that those who could command the force with great authority perhaps had a defense for such phyisically manifested attacks.

This doesn't add up. If you're refering to the freezing, we don't know if it was even aimed at the Jedi. It's not like he was threatened by any of them. Tossed Sylvar like a ragdoll and stove Vodo's skull in. Considering his confidence in the situation, I can't see why he would need to freeze the Jedi in the senate chamber.

If you're refering to the amulet blasts, you should review the following scan:

In addition to multiplying his rage "hundred thousand times" and on the second page it states that it doubles with "each pulse of anger". You see that he's all but leveling the wall with a single blast, and indeed two pages later the entire room is reduced to rubble and flames.

And this is what Kun did with the amulet without any training or in-depth knowledge of its abilities. Sadow created it. He knows it better than anyone. He could just spam blasts and wreck Vader who will have to try and close the gap and hope Sadow is somehow weaker and slower with his blade.

This is getting ridiculous, lmao. Why do people cling to the absence of proof clause like a shield as they scramble to try to make a point? These versus matches are not 100% conclusive or correct, they are hypothetical in nature and the 'Any Given Sunday' rule definitely applies. That said, when two combatants from separate time periods are set up against one another, one must compare their Force feats. Sadow's greatest feats of power derive from Sith arcana, which enhances their Force powers, and Sith magic [not to be confused with the dark side of the Force], which requires no effort to use. Vader's feats of strength are dependent solely on his powerful, raw connection to the Force. Sadow's greatest feat without his vaunted flagship and meditation sphere is what? Hurling a single brick. And you comically assert that this is "far greater" than Vader's ability to dismantle bridges and strike his opponents in critical, strategic areas? Than his ability to dismantle a room in Cloud City and hurl it at Luke? Than his ability to crush and WTFpwn Emperor Palpatine's laboratory in Revenge of the Sith? All of this, completely unaided? No. And despite this, you're asserting that Sadow rivals Vader in raw power? Doubt it. I'm going to have to side with Allankles on this one, Janus, and feel free to accuse me of having a "personal, biased opinion" on this from here to eternity (even though we both know that when it comes to this particular group of Sith, you've always been that which you've accused me of).

I don't understand why everyone always lol's at Sadow throwing a brick. Have you ever tried getting a brick out of a wall? It's cemented in there... taking it out with no effort, and quickly, right in the middle of a duel, is impressive. Much more, it hits Ludo's head with enouc=gh force that it bounces off - that would knock out most humans at lest, and possibly more. Yet Ludo gets up off the ground quick enough to block Naga's next attack! That shows these ancient sith's powers, not their weaknesses. Honestly, not to downplay Vader's feats. but in ESB those objects he threw, they weren't attacked to the floor, were they? If they weren't most of us could probably have picked one of them up, but I doubt any of us would be able to shove a brick out of a brick wall without using tools and taking some time.

I think some(atleast one) of the objects Vader tossed in ESB at Luke were attached to the wall.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I don't understand why everyone always lol's at Sadow throwing a brick. Have you ever tried getting a brick out of a wall? It's cemented in there... taking it out with no effort, and quickly, right in the middle of a duel, is impressive. Much more, it hits Ludo's head with enouc=gh force that it [b]bounces off - that would knock out most humans at lest, and possibly more. Yet Ludo gets up off the ground quick enough to block Naga's next attack! That shows these ancient sith's powers, not their weaknesses. Honestly, not to downplay Vader's feats. but in ESB those objects he threw, they weren't attacked to the floor, were they? If they weren't most of us could probably have picked one of them up, but I doubt any of us would be able to shove a brick out of a brick wall without using tools and taking some time. [/B]

Originally posted by Ivalice
You mean attached to the floor?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I think some(atleast one) of the objects Vader tossed in ESB at Luke were attached to the wall.

Given how one of Sadow's underlings was capable of using her powers to single-handedly enslave the people of an entire planet, and later wipe them all out with a single Force attack, Vader gets stomped, badly.

Sadow's greatest feats of power derive from Sith arcana, which enhances their Force powers,

All that's stated on the matter is that the amulets were used to help the Sith Lords focus their powers, and that they multiplied the inner rage of the person wearing them; nothing indicates that they actually directly enhanced their powers, and such an assertion would require proof.

and Sith magic [not to be confused with the dark side of the Force],

What's the real difference? Is "Sith Magic" not simply what the Ancient Sith labelled the Dark Side of the Force?

which requires no effort to use.

I've seen this be stated numerous times, first by Publius in that argument of his that you provided, and multiple times by yourself, since. Is this explicitly stated, or are you arguing that correlation = causation?