indeed...
also, just to clear things up
what the creators say >> what the game itself says..
example - geroge lucas is the highest form of canon, not the star wars movies..
if lucas says something, but the movies contradict that, we go with lucas, as he = highest source of canon, and the same goes for FFIIV...
The SW Universe and the Canon Tree is a unique entity. There is no such thing as G-Canon in other fiction.
It's the same shit manga wankers bring up with anime. "But the creators didn't make that!! It's NON-CANON!!!!!!" Of course the idea of canon probably never once crossed the creator's mind but the Japanophiles insist the manga should only be used.
It's all bullshit in the end.
If you all want to debate what some guys think, be my guest. i'll debate the actual games which happen to be the topic of this forum if you had forgotten.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
If you all want to debate what some guys think, be my guest. i'll debate the actual games which happen to be the topic of this forum if you had forgotten.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
It's the same shit manga wankers bring up with anime. "But the creators didn't make that!! It's NON-CANON!!!!!!" Of course the idea of canon probably never once crossed the creator's mind but the Japanophiles insist the manga should only be used.
It's all bullshit in the end.
Actually its not bullshit in the end with Manga and Anime, Most of the anime series are based on the manga and now and then when they adapt the manga into the animated series they sometimes do change something.
Originally posted by MadMelThe Star Wars universe has a very unique and different chain of canon, and can't be compared.
indeed...
also, just to clear things up
what the creators say >> what the game itself says..
example - geroge lucas is the highest form of canon, not the star wars movies..
if lucas says something, but the movies contradict that, we go with lucas, as he = highest source of canon, and the same goes for FFIIV...
Only ignorant fools think that the Anime is as canon as the Manga is. laughing out loud]Look at Naruto. They do shit in the anime that they never do in the manga, they're two separate retellings of the same story, really.
Except they're both as canon as one another. The creator of the manga has given the anime company the right to take his creation and improve on it.
Their talking about the power of Sephiroth, Sephiroth as a whole, his BEING , hence"His will and his EXISTENCE is extremely powerful, there is nothing stronger, nothing above him."
Logically, it means their is no being stronger then Sephiroth.
theyre not saying "No one has a stronger willpower then his"
His existence...True, I suppose that certainly could be seen as his "being" or him as a whole. If that's what we're taking it as, then I could agree to that. However, I still find it rather vague/ambiguous.
Stronger can mean more powerful, more superior, etc.. because from the japanese translation it is LITERALLY translated from japanese to english as "stronger" however the meaning does not mean physically stronger.
The word "stronger" can mean a great number of things. What I'm asking is why you believe that it specifically refers to being superior in this particular case. Using a different article with a different subject doesn't really work well, as it's...Y'know, a different article on a different subject.
I cant find that interview anymore, but it did say something along the lines of that, not that exact context though
*sighs* FFVII is becoming more like Star Wars, in that sense. Nobody can find any of these accursed interviews anymore, because there are so darn many of them.
Well maybe just it terms of skill, but Sephiroth is way more powerful, i dont think Genesis is capable of cutting up those canons like Sephiroth did, and plus Genesis body was deteriorating, which also explains how Sephiroth easily overpowered Zack, while Genesis lost.
Like I said, the only way I can see Genesis as being equal to Sephiroth is if they're talking about his magical abilities. SOLDIER Seph hasn't really shown much in terms of magic, so I could see someone matching/surpassing him in that area. But he's clearly the superior of the two when it comes to melee.
On the note of Genesis' deterioration, that actually helps the case that Post-Nibelheim Zack is as powerful as Genesis and SOLDIER Sephiroth. He struggled with Genesis before his treatments in Nibelheim (During which not only was Genesis deteriorating, but they were fighting with melee, Zack's specialty, rather than magic). Yet after his treatments in Nibelheim, he takes on a fully powered Genesis in his Avatar form, and then a second time in his human form. So the matches went like this:
- Sephiroth vs. Genesis (Deteriorating): Sephiroth appears to be the superior of the two, but Genesis' deterioration had started by this point, and the UOG claims the two were equals in combat ability.
- Zack (Pre-Nibelheim) vs. Genesis (Deteriorating): Despite the fact that they were fighting with Zack's specialty, Zack still struggles with him.
- Zack (Post-Nibelheim) vs. Genesis (Avatar/Fully Powered): Zack appears to basically curbstomp a Genesis who was not only fully powered, but who very well may have been superior to the form that was equal to Sephiroth in combat (His "avatar" form).
But only a midgar sized lifestream was needed to destroy meteor, as in the ending, as soon as about midgar filled with the lifestream the meteor quickly deteriorated
Actually, a plent-sized Lifestream was required to stop Meteor. It wasn't just coming up from various places around the planet while the surge in Midgar faced off with Meteor. The Lifestream was connected, and covering the entire planet when it forced by Meteor. Whether or not it was necessary to use so much Lifestream that the planet was covered is unknown, but that's certainly how much was used.
Midgar is huge, its bar far the biggest city in FF7, although we don't know how much of the lifestream he actually has, midgar sized + his willpower is enough to stop anyone in FF7
Remember, it's not the size of Midgar. It's big enough to cover the skies above Midgar, and throughout the majority of the battle, is only covering the skies.
As for that being enough to stop anyone in FFVII...I can't completely agree. First off, the only way it's useful in a fight is if he either absorbs it (And seeing as we can't say exactly how much it would enhance him, we can't really use that in an argument), or uses it as a weapon (Which would be useless against people like Cloud, Vincent, or SOLDIER personnel).
So with that in mind, I'd say that Chaos Vincent and Omega Weiss, at the very least, could match him in a fight. They would all have advantages and disadvantages for the other to exploit, but I believe they could keep the playing field even.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
]Except they're both as canon as one another. The creator of the manga has given the anime company the right to take his creation and improve on it.
Uh, no. No he hasn't. He has given them the right to take his work and animate it, and then make filler, I.E., bullshit, episodes to take up space so he catch up with his manga. They're two seperate universes. It's similar to how George Lucas has his own Star Wars universe, and then there's EU which is canon in it's own right, but can still be retconned and ultimately, answers to the authority of the movies, which are primary canon.
They're two seperate universes.
That pretty much sums it up. When they make an anime based on the manga, the anime isn't what we would call "True Canon." It has its own canon, and it might even fit into continuity with the material it was based on (Such as with the Star Wars novels), but it still takes a back seat to the original, genuine canon (Unless, of course, the creators step in and say something. But I doubt many of the creators would choose someone else's interpretations of their work over their actual work). A couple examples?
Fullmetal Alchemist manga vs. FMA anime. Neither of them are connected, and they each have their own "canon." However, the manga is what we would call "true canon," and is where the line is drawn when it comes to information on the official story. The "real" FMA is the manga, while the anime is a sort of alternate universe.
Hellsing manga vs. Hellsing anime (The first one). As with FMA, neither of them are connected, and they each have their own canon (The manga once again being the "True Canon" unless the writer steps in and says otherwise).
Of course, this is all irrelevant in regards to the fact that the creators have absolute control over canon, and can't be overridden even by the material itself. It sucks for fans sometimes, but a perk of creating your own fictional universe is that you/those who wrote it are the God(s) of that universe.
Remember, it's not the size of Midgar. It's big enough to cover the skies above Midgar, and throughout the majority of the battle, is only covering the skies.
As for that being enough to stop anyone in FFVII...I can't completely agree. First off, the only way it's useful in a fight is if he either absorbs it (And seeing as we can't say exactly how much it would enhance him, we can't really use that in an argument), or uses it as a weapon (Which would be useless against people like Cloud, Vincent, or SOLDIER personnel).So with that in mind, I'd say that Chaos Vincent and Omega Weiss, at the very least, could match him in a fight. They would all have advantages and disadvantages for the other to exploit, but I believe they could keep the playing field even. [/B]
If Sephiroth used the lifestream as a weapon, i don't see how Cloud, Vincent, or Omega Weiss will beable to evade it, its basically instantaneous, and if its capable of damaging meteor its definately capable of damaging any of those guys, plus Sephiroth also has powerful willpower to keep them from moving like he the way he stopped Holy.
Having control over the lifestream is a huge feat, he can do basically anything like he claimed he can transform the planet, plus even the power of Materia comes from the lifestream, its stated in the UOG, that all materia is, is allowing the user to tap into the power of the lifestream, if Sephiroth has control over the lifestream he logically should be able to do anything.
Originally posted by Blax_HydraliskSo according to you, anime is canon if it doesn't contradict manga. That is what Star Wars EU is.
Uh, no. No he hasn't. He has given them the right to take his work and animate it, and then make filler, I.E., bullshit, episodes to take up space so he catch up with his manga. They're two seperate universes. It's similar to how George Lucas has his own Star Wars universe, and then there's EU which is canon in it's own right, but can still be retconned and ultimately, answers to the authority of the movies, which are primary canon.
In essence it is up to the thread starter to decide which version they wish to use at the start of the thread, then a properly formulated series of canon material can then be debated.
For example, if the threadstarter says "AC Sephiroth" instead of simply "Sephiroth" then everyone knows which version of the character is in question, Another example, perse lets use "Anime Goku vs Anime Naruto", or more relevant to this forum "SF2 Anime Ryu vs SF3 Ryu".
it's entirely up to the thread starter to make sure they 'CLARIFY' what is in the debate and what isn't, thread rules and stipulations for the match and other factors.
This is why threads like "Ryu vs Bison" in the title, then with no thought put into the thread at all we read in the OP (Opening Post), "You know what to do..."
With open ended threads like that, it's far too open ended... there's no detail, theres no substance, heck anyone could argue any form of the character at that point, Bison would wipe Ryu out with a satelie attack and win without lifing a finger...
Obvious curb stomp.
But it could go deeper than that, if we get an open ended close matchup like Hugo vs Zangief, and it's completely open ended, then we have the highest potential for flame wars to start, simply because one group of debaters completely will not tolerate the oppinions of the other side, and vice versa, and because it's open ended, anything could be used.
Please people, to avoid this kind of useless arguments, put some deep thpught into your threads, make them worth while, challenging, but not fostering the need for heated arguments that furn to flame wars for stupid reasons.
Its unknown how far the NL stretched out, but its ATLEAST the size of midgar, when it did the above shot the whole city was darkened, and throughout the fight as far as you can see the NL was covered the skies, and it was basically instantaneous as well.
And again, we really do have an idea of how far it stretched out, and it wasn't especially thick. It covered the skies above Midgar/Edge, but there are several gaps through which you can see the light from the sky above the NL. It's really nothing compared to what was used to throw Meteor back.
If Sephiroth used the lifestream as a weapon, i don't see how Cloud, Vincent, or Omega Weiss will beable to evade it, its basically instantaneous, and if its capable of damaging meteor its definately capable of damaging any of those guys, plus Sephiroth also has powerful willpower to keep them from moving like he the way he stopped Holy.
1) Again, it took enough Lifestream to cover the planet to destroy Meteor. Sephiroth has nothing on that scale. He covered Midgar and Edge with the NL, and the sky was visible through it. The Lifestream used to stop Meteor covered the entire planet (And big as the city may be, it's nothing remotely close to that size).
2) Chaos Vincent is literally a being created by the Lifestream. Why on Earth do you think the Lifestream would harm him? Omega Weiss is a being empowered by the Lifestream, whose power increases as he gets more. Why on Earth do you think being hit with even more of it would harm him? Cloud was thrown into the Lifestream itself. Why do you think Sephiroth's considerably smaller stash of Negative Lifestream would hurt him any more than that?
3) Willpower =/= Holding people back. We have no idea how his "willpower" held Holy back. It may not even be a physical thing. He may have simply been restraining it via the Lifestream. He might be able to use telekinesis to restrain them, but using his will to hold back a spell doesn't really give us much to go on. Even then, the limits of his telekinesis aren't known, as the party breaks free of it (Whether this was intentional on his part or not isn't really known).
Having control over the lifestream is a huge feat, he can do basically anything like he claimed he can transform the planet, plus even the power of Materia comes from the lifestream, its stated in the UOG, that all materia is, is allowing the user to tap into the power of the lifestream, if Sephiroth has control over the lifestream he logically should be able to do anything.
1) And again, he only has control over an incredibly small portion of it, seeing as a mere portion of the Lifestream was able to cover the entire planet, and his merely covered a single city.
2) I doubt it would literally "transform the planet." It would transform the Lifestream into Negative Lifestream, and possibly waste the planet in the same way that Omega would, though.
3) You don't need to give me information from the UOG, trust me. Either way, the UOG's explanation isn't necessary, as Sephiroth explains it during Nibelheim in the game.
4) And that brings up yet another problem. The Lifestream doesn't grant a single set of abilities. Different materia, different pieces of the crystallized Lifestream, bring about different effects. As such, we have no clue what abilities Sephiroth would gain from the section of the Lifestream he controls, assuming that the Negative Lifestream works in the same way as the normal Lifestream. This is also a problem in that Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are capable of controlling Negative Lifestream to some degree (And are in fact composed of Lifestream), yet still require materia to use magic.
Originally posted by VinCon01
[B]And again, we really do have an idea of how far it stretched out, and it wasn't especially thick. It covered the skies above Midgar/Edge, but there are several gaps through which you can see the light from the sky above the NL. It's really nothing compared to what was used to throw Meteor back.
2) Chaos Vincent is literally a being created by the Lifestream. Why on Earth do you think the Lifestream would harm him? Omega Weiss is a being empowered by the Lifestream, whose power increases as he gets more. Why on Earth do you think being hit with even more of it would harm him? Cloud was thrown into the Lifestream itself. Why do you think Sephiroth's considerably smaller stash of Negative Lifestream would hurt him any more than that?
3) Willpower =/= Holding people back. We have no idea how his "willpower" held Holy back. It may not even be a physical thing. He may have simply been restraining it via the Lifestream. He might be able to use telekinesis to restrain them, but using his will to hold back a spell doesn't really give us much to go on. Even then, the limits of his telekinesis aren't known, as the party breaks free of it (Whether this was intentional on his part or not isn't really known).
1) And again, he only has control over an incredibly small portion of it, seeing as a mere portion of the Lifestream was able to cover the entire planet, and his merely covered a single city.
2) I doubt it would literally "transform the planet." It would transform the Lifestream into Negative Lifestream, and possibly waste the planet in the same way that Omega would, though.
4) And that brings up yet another problem. The Lifestream doesn't grant a single set of abilities. Different materia, different pieces of the crystallized Lifestream, bring about different effects. As such, we have no clue what abilities Sephiroth would gain from the section of the Lifestream he controls, assuming that the Negative Lifestream works in the same way as the normal Lifestream. This is also a problem in that Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are capable of controlling Negative Lifestream to some degree (And are in fact composed of Lifestream), yet still require materia to use magic.
It was already proved to VinCon in another forum, that the SHM did use magic. They were using "Summon magic" to summon(duh!) the Shadow Creepers, without the aid of Materia. The Reunion Files even states the Creepers are called Summons with a capital 'S', like any other Summon in the series.
But VinCon is too stubborn to admit being wrong. For example:
VinCon
His existence...True, I suppose that certainly could be seen as his "being" or him as a whole. If that's what we're taking it as, then I could agree to that. However, I still find it rather vague/ambiguous.
His previous argument was destroyed by the evidence presented, living him without any refute, in the quote above. But he still can't admit being wrong.
It was already proved to VinCon in another forum, that the SHM did use magic. They were using "Summon magic" to summon(duh!) the Shadow Creepers, without the aid of Materia. The Reunion Files even states the Creepers are called Summons with a capital 'S', like any other Summon in the series.
It wasn't proven anywhere. I repeatedly asked for the one I was arguing with to tell me where they're referred to as such in the Reunion Files, and they repeatedly refused to provide a page number, or even the general section in which it was stated. Of course, this isn't even taking into consideration the various typos and mistranslations scattered throughout the Reunion Files (For example, referring to Cloud as a SOLDIER during the Nibelheim period).
Oh, and I'm still waiting for that page number.
His previous argument was destroyed by the evidence presented, living him without any refute, in the quote above. But he still can't admit being wrong.
Actually, I'm quite capable of admitting when I'm wrong. In fact, I do so pretty often. Just not when there's a clear flaw in the argument I'm presented with.
There will always be small gaps, even when the lifestream supposedly covered the planet, there was gaps, it streteched out atleast as far as midgar and as far passed as the eye can see.
True, this is true.
Because Sephiroth is in controlled of it? Theres a difference between lifestream thats just floating there, and lifestream used as a weapon (like against meteor) Chaos may have been physically created by the lifestream but it doesn't mean lifestream isn't capable of harming him just as a sword can, humans are made by humans and they can harm eachother, hell everything in FF7 is in one way made by the lfiestream, and they can harm eachother, and it was work the same way with Omega, Sephiroth is capable of infecting the lifestream, Omega is lifestream, and i wouldn't doubt it if Sephiroth would beable to take control of Omega, Cloud would just die like any other human by the lifestream
1) How is there a difference between the two? Their effects are exactly the same. The only difference is that one actually has some physical force behind it due to the fact that it's moving.
2) An incredibly flawed analogy if I've ever seen one. A living thing gives birth to a living thing and can still harm it is the same as a living thing being harmed by the substance that created it? Major difference, friend.
3) Um...No. Everything is not "made by the Lifestream." Everything has Spirit Energy, but they aren't physically composed of Lifestream. Again, your analogy is incredibly flawed. You're comparing a being giving birth to another being having the ability to harm that second being, and a being created and at least partially composed of a non-living substance being harmed by that substance. You're basically saying that because a human can harm a human it created, water can hurt ice.
4) It's unlikely that Sephiroth could control Omega. He would actually have to corrupt the Lifestream it was composed of before he could do something like that. And if we're talking about Omega Weiss, then he would have to deal with Weiss' consciousness as well.
He was obviously bringing them in and slashing them back, they were all instantaneously brought in together, then Sephiroth brings them in the fight, Sephiroth with just a look brought down the top of the building in AC, and throughout FF7 held Holy.
1) Again, not really. He was bringing them all in and slashing them back at first, yes. However, then they made their little inspiration speech, and all of them charge him. There's no way of knowing if they broke out themselves, or if he released them. Especially since AC's opening shows them all charging him at the same time.
2) Seriously, he was holding back Holy with his willpower.
Again, we don't know the limits of how much he controls, with a gesture he instantly covered the skies + more of midgar
Again, we do know the limits of what he controls. He controls what we see. Saying he could control more is flawed, as there's no basis for him controlling more than what we see. What he had was enough to cover the skies of Midgar/Edge. No more, no less. It only covered any space under the skies for a few moments, and is never seen in the battlefield again, simply remaining in the skies above.
Omega would waste the planet and fly himself off to another planet, Sephiroth would keep the planet alive however under HIS control, and to be able to pilot the ship, he much need to transform it in a way somehow.
The planet doesn't need to be alive for him to use it as a vessel. Jenova rode on a crappy hunk of meteor when she crashed to the planet, so Sephiroth could likely do the same. Odds are, he would want to absorb it at some point or another, as was his original plan.
Materia TAPS into the power of the lifestream, it borrows the lifestreams power, different materia taps into different forces of the lifestream, the SHM hold minimal power of the lifestream they are just weak renmants, Sephiroth is Jenova itself, he controls the J-cells at its full.
...The SHM hold minimal power of the Lifestream? They have more Lifestream in them than Sephiroth...Heck, the only beings with more Lifestream in them are summons and WEAPONS. Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are completely composed of Lifestream. They create the Shadow Creepers in seconds with a gesture. I don't see how that is "minimal control."
Heck, if "having the Lifestream" as a weapon is a simple enough excuse to have more magic, then they should have MORE than Sephiroth, seeing as he simply controls it, while they're both composed of it, and control it. Yet they don't.
Originally posted by VinCon01
1) How is there a difference between the two? Their effects are exactly the same. The only difference is that one actually has some physical force behind it due to the fact that it's moving.
2) An incredibly flawed analogy if I've ever seen one. A living thing gives birth to a living thing and can still harm it is the same as a living thing being harmed by the substance that created it? Major difference, friend.
4) It's unlikely that Sephiroth could control Omega. He would actually have to corrupt the Lifestream it was composed of before he could do something like that. And if we're talking about Omega Weiss, then he would have to deal with Weiss' consciousness as well.
1) Again, not really. He was bringing them all in and slashing them back at first, yes. However, then they made their little inspiration speech, and all of them charge him. There's no way of knowing if they broke out themselves, or if he released them. Especially since AC's opening shows them all charging him at the same time.
2) Seriously, he was holding back Holy with his willpower.
Again, we do know the limits of what he controls. He controls what we see. Saying he could control more is flawed, as there's no basis for him controlling more than what we see. What he had was enough to cover the skies of Midgar/Edge. No more, no less. It only covered any space under the skies for a few moments, and is never seen in the battlefield again, simply remaining in the skies above.
...The SHM hold minimal power of the Lifestream? They have more Lifestream in them than Sephiroth...Heck, the only beings with more Lifestream in them are summons and WEAPONS. Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are completely composed of Lifestream. They create the Shadow Creepers in seconds with a gesture. I don't see how that is "minimal control."
With a gesture they created Negative lifestream shadow creepers.. Sephiroth with a gesture covered the entire skies with Negative Lifestream
Heck, if "having the Lifestream" as a weapon is a simple enough excuse to have more magic, then they should have MORE than Sephiroth, seeing as he simply controls it, while they're both composed of it, and control it. Yet they don't. [/B]