Final Fantasy VIII vs. Final Fantasy VII

Meant to post this last night, but got sidetracked. If you count sleeping as getting sidetracked <_<

Denzels FOSTER mother died as soon as she was exposed to the lifestream that was attacking meteor, the fact that lifestream power source to everything in FF7 and can disintegrate meteor, fairly quickly is enough to know its a force not to be reckoned with

Ah, his foster mother then. I didn't bother to go back and look at that, seeing as I recalled his mother (And father, if I'm not mistaken) being killed in the pillar collapse. Indeed, it did kill her instantly.

However, again, this isn't likely to impact something like Chaos Vincent, which is composed of Lifestream. Just ask Nero. He tried it, and it didn't end too well for him.

Again, it has NEVER been stated as TELEKINESIS in FF7, so what difference is it if he holds Holy making it immovable, lifting up the whole party and torturing them, taking down the top of the shinra building, all with the power of the mind, either definition it makes no difference.

It's also NEVER been stated that Rufus Shinra was blond in FFVII. That's because it should be clear. Telekinesis and Willpower aren't the same thing. Preventing his non-physical will from joining the flow of the Lifestream? This is willpower. Kadaj corrupting the kids via water corrupted by his will? This is willpower. Physically holding something =/= willpower.

Speaking of "definitions," let's take a look at the definition of willpower and will:

Willpower: The strength of will to carry out one's decisions, wishes, or plans.

Will:

1. The faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will.

2. Power of choosing one's own actions: to have a strong or a weak will.

3. The act or process of using or asserting one's choice; volition: My hands are obedient to my will.

Power of will =/= something physically affecting the world.

Just look in the distance between buildings, theres nothing but NL as far as you can see.

It's as far as the eye can see because it almost never shows us anything beyond the area of Cloud/Sephiroth's confrontation, most shots of which are upwards (Not the best angle for seeing distance), surrounded by debris, or focusing on a small area. 🙂

So they all just somehow "fly" in similtaneously? Just like a second earlier when he was bringing them in and slashing them back?

*Watches the opening to AC*

Right. So what you're saying is that people are now incapable of charging forward at the same time? Man, the human race's physical ability sure has degraded a lot.

Again, Sephiroth CREATED the SHM, Sephiroth CREATED the NL, why should it work that SHM have more control over the NL when Sephiroth creates both of them?

It should work that way because they're composed of it. He shouldn't have any more control over the Negative Lifestream than them, seeing as the Negative Lifestream is Lifestream corrupted by Jenova Cells, not Lifestream literally containing Jenova Cells. The Jenova Cells would remain with the physical bodies, meaning that Seph having control over Jenova wouldn't mean much.

On a side note, whether or not Sephiroth actually "created them" in the sense that he consciously made them has been called into question. In the 10th Anniversary UOG, in relation to Sephiroth, it says that:

"Although he was defeated in the war surrounding Meteor, and had once fallen into a Mako Reactor, he did not return to the Planet but instead was diffused into the Lifestream. Elements from his body flowed into the atmosphere, and the rejection of these heterogeneous elements was called "Geostigma". Soon after, a remnant of his called Kadaj acquired substance. He was to fulfill the volition inherited from "Mother" to "To rule the Planet", and fought against his fated rival Cloud."

He diffused into the Lifestream, and soon after one of his remnants "acquired substance." Now why not just say that he formed/created them? Of course, I'm not saying that he didn't create them. I'm rather intent on the idea that he did. However, exactly HOW he created them is a bity iffy.

Where has it been stated SHM have "absolutly no Jenova Cells"? They are physical manifestations of Sephiroth afterall, even if they were created by the NL, the Jenova Cells were the first reason NL came to existence, when Sephiroth merged with the lfiestream contaminating it with J-cells.

1) They're the physical manifestations of his spirit/will. Not his physical body. Whether or not he has Jenova Cells has no impact on whether or not they do.

2) The Jenova Cells were the reason the NL came into existence. However, it doesn't physically contain them. If it did, then KYLE wouldn't need the children, because their Jenova Cells would allow them to sense Jenova. The Negative Lifestream is formed from the Spirit Energy of those killed by Geostigma, and in turn by Jenova Cells. However, the Jenova Cells are a physical thing in the human body. So it's not really logical to say that the rest of their physical bodies would remain, but that particular element would suddenly go with their Spirit Energy.

Aside from that, them having Jenova Cells but not being able to sense Jenova would completely contradict everything we know about Jenova Cells. Heck, half of FFVII and AC were about those with Jenova Cells using the ability to sense Jenova to respond to her call for the Reunion, and return to her. It's the entire reason Hojo even went through the trouble of the Sephiroth Copy Project. In VII, Cloud subciounsciously responds to the call from continents away. The idea that they would have Jenova Cells, but not be able to even get a hint of the fact that the biggest remaining concentration was quite literally in front of their noses, flies in the face of everything FFVII and the Compilation has told us about the cells.

I'm still waiting on where ur getting the info on SHM have absolutely no J-cells, keep in mind that they ARE weak remnants of Sephiroth, and the NL was originally created by J-cells, logically they should have small control over the NL.

You mean besides the fact that every shred of information we have regarding Jenova Cells directly contradicts the idea that they have them? The Copies, from entirely different continents, heard Jenova's (Sephiroth's) call, and made their way to him, even with no other way of knowing where he would be. So if people simply injected with those cells could follow their insticts to Jenova from continents away, why would three beings composed of Jenova Cells suddenly not be able to tell when they were literally within reaching distance of Jenova Cells?

On that note, it also contradicts what we know of Sephiroth's return. Sephiroth was only able to reform his body after his spirit (Kadaj) came into contact with a large enough concentration of Jenova Cells, and Kadaj even states that those infected with Geostigma aren't enough. So how is it that they can be composed of something that's composed of Jenova Cells, have all the children with Geostigma, but still not have enough?

Keep in mind that we've never AC Sephiroth at 100%, also remember that Loz is a weak remnant of Sephiroth and look at his speed, Sephiroth is far more powerful then all 3 combined even when he's not going at 100%, you can imagine how fast he should be at 100%, creators even state theres nothing above him.

1) Loz being able to do it doesn't specifically mean Sephiroth can. Remember, he's not a physical part of Sephiroth. He's simply a manifestation of his will/spirit, composed of Lifestream. It could simply be an innate technique unique to him. Even then, exactly how fast he moves is questionable (Though I personally believe that the way its depicted implies he moves on speeds similar to those of CV/OW, even if not quite on that level).

Bah! Curse these character limits! Vin want teh rantzors!

2) Again, I still have to disagree on that particular quote. It's still pretty vague, and could be taken in several ways. Especially considering the incredibly vague use of the term "strength." After all, while they can sometimes use "strength" to mean every ability, they also say things such as:

Nozue states in the Prologue Book/Interviews that Kadaj is the "fastest of the three" in reference to Sephiroth, Cloud, and Kadaj. Of course, I personally believe that he's referring to speed of movement, but it's still not absolutely certain. This would mean that if Sephiroth is faster than Loz, and Kadaj is faster than Sephiroth, then Kadaj is faster than either of them but simply didn't feel like moving that fast, even when facing someone like Cloud.

In the Reunion Files, Nomura says "Sephiroth was an incredibly powerful rival for Cloud in the game. We needed a villain just as powerful for this film, but maybe even more so given the short amount of time. That's why we made Kadaj so evil, in addition to being insane."

This is why translated comments regarding their power are a bit iffy. They can often mean a multitude of different things, especially considering how they tend to word the statements and what the context of the statements is.

This is why I don't like to debate with you. You are so full of yourself, you believe your own assumptions are facts.

Interesting, considering my "assumptions" are based on actual information, and that information generally backs them. Your assumptions are based on a summary of the information from a book you've apparently never seen.

Cloud and Sephiroth use their own spirit energy to perform Blade Beam and Iakiri. The SHM use an external force(the NL) to summon creatures.
Limit Breaks are completely different than Summon magic. Because in FFVII, using the Lifestream(Negative or not) to summon monsters, is considered magic Vin. Not Limit Break.

Oh, wrong again. Cloud and Sephiroth use their own Spirit Energy to use these attacks. So do Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz. The brothers are made of Negative Lifestream, and therefore the Negative Lifestream is an extension of their own Spirit Energy. Or perhaps they're merely extensions of the Negative Lifestream. Either way, they are merely extensions of one another.

But I'm sure you will find another of your assumptions to counter me. This is what you do best, after all.

A bit hypocritical, there. The only thing you're countering me with are your own assumptions. Apparently you're still miffed about that topic.

The rest of your post was just you, saying you have the Files, knows the guy who translated the UOG, and inflating your own ego because of that.

It had nothing to do with ego inflation. It's a simple fact. I've known about this information you're providing me with for some time now. However, you're also not considering things that you probably wouldn't know if you didn't have the book yourself. For instance, as before, the number of typos and mistranslations in the book. I believe I've already provided the "koibito" and "SOLDIER" examples. Also, while I'd have to go back and check, I'm pretty sure they're referred to simply as "summons" without the "s" at least once.

Go back to GameFAQs and the Sephiroth haters who believe in your bulshit. That place is full of them.

I love how you assume that I don't like Sephiroth. In fact, several people over there are well aware of the fact that Sephiroth isn't simply one of my favorite FFVII characters (The favorite, in fact, aside from Jenova. And that's just because she = teh hotness), but he's among my all-time favorite Final Fantasy characters in general.

Doesn't change the fact that I'm willing to look beyond how much I like him to see his flaws.

... are you even reading the replies? SHM and I state FACTS, Vin is being shut down but just wont admit that hes wrong

You've "shut me down" on perhaps one thing. And that's just you. I'll admit that you're actually using evidence to support your argument. SHM, on the other hand, is definitely not using anything reasonable to support the arguments he's made against me. In fact, most of it has simply been rather sad jabs at me.

The only thing he provided was "They're called Summons," which was taken from a one-line summary of information from the Reunion Files, ignoring any possible instance of them being referred to as "summons" without the "S", but also ignoring mistranslations and typos in the RF, such as when they refer to Cloud as a SOLDIER during Nibelheim, rather than simply as a soldier.

Minerva is the concience of the lifestream, the goddess of the planet

However, exactly how powerful she is is quite questionable. For instance, if she's as "uber" as some claim, then why not simply deal with Jenova herself? Why bother creating half a dozen WEAPONS to deal with a threat, if she can handle the problem on her own?

Typically you make a weapon when you yourself can't perform a task.

Is this thread allowed? Because if so, then all the "Blabla Universe Vs. Blabla Universe" should be too, since it is the exact same concept.

I dunno. Ask Peach or GK about it.

Ya know who'd kick everyone in FFVII's ass in swordfighting? Kenshin

Not fast enough, definately not strong enough, though has more skill.

You know who really would beat the whole verse in a sword fight? Surtur.

You know who would kill them all with a gun? Saint of Killers.

You know who would one shot the whole planet physically? Superman Prime.

If Ultimecia isn't included then FF VII would win this pretty easily. SOLDIER has proven itself to be superior to SeeD, Cloud is stronger than Squall, and Sephiroth is mightier than pretty much anything else in FF VIII. However, I don't think even Sephiroth would be able to handle time compression.

Not fast enough, definately not strong enough, though has more skill.

You know who really would beat the whole verse in a sword fight? Surtur.

You know who would kill them all with a gun? Saint of Killers.

You know who would one shot the whole planet physically? Superman Prime.

Pft. We all know about your man crush on SMP.
I'll admit, he's buff. And got the whole "bad boy" thing going on perfectly.

But Kenshin...the long red hair, that sweetlook on his face? Positively dreamy.

Oh and uh...well, if it comes to tech, FFVIII will dominate. They can launch cruise missiles at any time and Shinra has a distinct lack of air defenses against such weapons.

Let me explain VinCon's logic to you all. He believes everything that happens during a battle, is gameplay mechanics. Including the magic spells. Yeah, you read it right. He thinks that most FF characters cannot use magic in the story, just because they only use it in battle.
Ridiculous, isn't it?

This is why he says Sephiroth cannot use magic without Materia. Because we never saw him using it in a cutscene or FMV, only in battle(Bizarro and Safer).
But then we have the fact that Seph was absorbing Lifestream, the source of magic. VinCon says that this is not a proof he can cast spells, because Kadaj and his brothers are made of Lifestream and cannot cast them.
That's why we are talking about the SHM. But in truth, we are talking about Sephiroth here. And I will talk about him now.

Even if we accept Vin's flawed and ridiculous logic that most FF characters cannot use magic in the story, that's not applied to Sephiroth.

Why?

Because of his profile in the Compilation Ultimania, where we can read the resume of his life story in the series(Compilation). Here is the link:

http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/sephiroth.php

And look at that! His profile have a description of one of his attacks in the story. Super Nova, a MAGIC spell! A spell he used during the final battle, without the aid of Materia.

But Vin said he can't use magic without Materia! VinCon or the creators...

Hmmmm.....

I wonder who is right? 🙄

Another of Vin's assumptions destroyed.

Back to topic:

It depends of what timeline we are using. FFVIII pre-game, during it, or post? FFVII pre-game(time of CC and BC), during it, or post?

Plus the fact that Sephiroths remnants were able to summon without materia..

Please, forget what I said about Sephiroth not using magic in a cutscene or FMV.

He created a HUGE magical barrier around the Northern Crater, after all.