Originally posted by llagrokLex has put someone under mind control, so has Doom. Each tend to last more than a day. Thats the problem. Besides enhance and control other mutants his tech is good for nothing. The limits of this control doesn't seem to last very long since most mutants overcome it in a short period of time.
Uhm, so?
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Lex has put someone under mind control, so has Doom. Each tend to last more than a day. Thats the problem. Besides enhance and control other mutants his tech is good for nothing. The limits of this control doesn't seem to last very long since most mutants overcome it in a short period of time.
It's not mind control. They are brainwashed, though others might follow him willingly.
Angel was tricked into believing he had killed Iceman. This 'shocked' him back to his senses. The same happened to Hulk when he thought he killed Rick Jones. And Wolverine returned to his former self thanks to Shadow King.
Apoc's other Horsemen (not main characters like Angel, Gambit, Wolverine or Hulk) have remained at his side, mostly for a very long time.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Lex has put someone under mind control, so has Doom. Each tend to last more than a day. Thats the problem. Besides enhance and control other mutants his tech is good for nothing. The limits of this control doesn't seem to last very long since most mutants overcome it in a short period of time.
Apocalypse didn't really try to brainwash Gambit, that was the whole idea. Gambit thought he was still fully in control. It's not like his technology failed to grant them powers.
You had nothing to say when I called you on the other bullshit. Apocalypse gaining reality warping powers, becoming strong enough to easily withstand Black Bolt's voice, etc.
Or the Doom who stole the Beyonder's powers being a different Doom.
Originally posted by llagrok
Apocalypse didn't really try to brainwash Gambit, that was the whole idea. Gambit thought he was still fully in control. It's not like his technology failed to grant them powers.You had nothing to say when I called you on the other bullshit. Apocalypse gaining reality warping powers, becoming strong enough to easily withstand Black Bolt's voice, etc.
Or the Doom who stole the Beyonder's powers being a different Doom.
Originally posted by llagrokwhat bullshit are you talking about. Listing stats from his handbook doesn't mean anything. Martian Manhunters stats put him above most heroes but for the most part he gets owned a lot. You can spew stats till your head pops off but for the most part he doesn't do anything but manipulate his arms and use concussive blasts. As far as the twelve goes. He took twelve mutants that out of no where equate to cosmic power. Thats around Lex and his infamous orange juice cans level of stupidity.
Apocalypse didn't really try to brainwash Gambit, that was the whole idea. Gambit thought he was still fully in control. It's not like his technology failed to grant them powers.You had nothing to say when I called you on the other bullshit. Apocalypse gaining reality warping powers, becoming strong enough to easily withstand Black Bolt's voice, etc.
Or the Doom who stole the Beyonder's powers being a different Doom.
Originally posted by Bad Ash231Brainwashed, mind control -your splitting hairs, the point is they never work on anyone worth a damn for any long period of time. Doom has been an issue for a number of cosmic gods. He was even a problem Akhenaten felt needed to be taken care of quickly in the end .It's not mind control. They are brainwashed, though others might follow him willingly.
Angel was tricked into believing he had killed Iceman. This 'shocked' him back to his senses. The same happened to Hulk when he thought he killed Rick Jones. And Wolverine returned to his former self thanks to Shadow King.
Apoc's other Horsemen (not main characters like Angel, Gambit, Wolverine or Hulk) have remained at his side, mostly for a very long time.
Originally posted by darthgooberActually the Secret Wars IS valid for mainstream Doom. See the Beyonder pulled Doom from the 1990's back to the time period of the Secret Wars, and then restored Doom's memories to him later on after he'd been brought back to life. That mean that Doom's current self has actually experienced(and remembers) the entire Secret War saga.
It once again proves that Doom stealing Beyonder's power is a farce,
for Beyonder actually allowed Doom to steal his power again during that re-introduction,
this solidifies Beyonder's absolute manipulation of the entire event,
but beyond this,
we later learn that Beyonder unconsciously gave Doom what he wanted,
because it was in Beyonder's nature to give others what they desired,
I mean,
that was the whole point of SW I in the first place, to grant insects their dreams.
For Doom, that dream was Beyonder's power:
Originally posted by Mr Master
While I agree SW (84) is valid for 616 Doom,
because he was re-introduced into the SW saga (84) by Beyonder in 85' (not 90)
we mustn't forget that the original version of Doom that "stole" B's power,
was not the real, or original Doom,
but an impossible alternate from a non-existent future courtesy of the Beyonder.It once again proves that Doom stealing Beyonder's power is a farce,
for Beyonder actually allowed Doom to steal his power again during that re-introduction,
this solidifies Beyonder's absolute manipulation of the entire event,
but beyond this,
we later learn that Beyonder unconsciously gave Doom what he wanted,
because it was in Beyonder's nature to give others what they desired,
I mean,
that was the whole point of SW I in the first place, to grant insects their dreams.For Doom, that dream was Beyonder's power[/IMG][/URL]
Thanks for that. So, Huey, Illagrok was right.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Please don't mention "the twelve". That series made no sense and was terrible.
What made no sense?
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
As far as the twelve goes. He took twelve mutants that out of no where equate to cosmic power. Thats around Lex and his infamous orange juice cans level of stupidity.
You exaggerate...
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
the point is they never work on anyone worth a damn for any long period of time.
lol
You think there is a time limit to their brainwash or something?
And only main characters ends up joining the X-Men again.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
You can spew stats till your head pops off but for the most part he doesn't do anything but manipulate his arms and use concussive blasts.
Uhuh, and Doom is just a pissed off nerd in a fancy armor.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
what bullshit are you talking about. Listing stats from his handbook doesn't mean anything. Martian Manhunters stats put him above most heroes but for the most part he gets owned a lot. You can spew stats till your head pops off but for the most part he doesn't do anything but manipulate his arms and use concussive blasts. As far as the twelve goes. He took twelve mutants that out of no where equate to cosmic power. Thats around Lex and his infamous orange juice cans level of stupidity.
Stats?
What the hell are you talking about?
Originally posted by llagrokWith thousands of years to work with he should have at leats partially acomplished his his .
Apocalypse's goal isn't as easy to accomplish, he wants to separate the weak from the strong, it's not as easily accomplished as simply gaining more powers.Apocalypse also had reality altering powers after the twelve, so it's not like he has never gotten any proper power.
The big difference between the two is that Doom can do more with less.
A Doom without his armor or tech or magic to rely on is still very dangerous .
What can apocalyose do without Celestial tech to rely on ?
Originally posted by godking
With thousands of years to work with he should have at leats partially acomplished his his .The big difference between the two is that Doom can do more with less.
A Doom without his armor or tech or magic to rely on is still very dangerous .
What can apocalyose do without Celestial tech to rely on ?
Apocalypse still has superhuman strength/durability/etc, thousands of years worth of experience and knowledge.
Apocalypse didn't really get any mutants to work with until the last century.
Originally posted by Bad Ash231That arc was terrible. He took twelve mutants, one of which is maybe close to top tier and then combined them together to somehow make him a match for a celestial? Those twelve could barely match the SS let alone a celestial. That arc was bad(Not Onslaught bad) but pretty bad. After he channeled everything into Cyclops, his consciousness barely lasted a few issues fast forward to cyclops wandering on his own with an apparent dormined Apocalypse still trapped inside him. I know the explanation that was given for how there powers funneled into the vessel, I just didn't find it believable.
What made no sense?You exaggerate...
lol
You think there is a time limit to their brainwash or something?
And only main characters ends up joining the X-Men again.
Uhuh, and Doom is just a pissed off nerd in a fancy armor.
As far as the brainwashing, its more of a cliche than anything. Yes, he has increased the strength of his horseman but the upgrades seem to be fleeting as best ( except for angel. )
EX
Wolverine- most of his skills as death were not far from his normal skill range except he was more feral with no remorse and access to a shit load of weapons. Cable proved that by taking him on alone.
Hulk- Even with the upgrades, his fight with Juggernaut wasn't that impressive especially considering what we have seen him do during WWH or even some of his fights as the savage Hulk.
Gambit- Seemed to have a better level of control but nothing more.
This is my problem with his tech. He has access to tech that supposedly even the most brilliant minds in the world have trouble comprehending yet his upgrades are not far out of the characters power range or skill set.
Dooms tech allowed his doombot to steal the surfers powers. He himself has also done so along with stealing galactus's powers. Alot of his tech reeks of golden age but thats how hes always been written. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Doom%27s_devices . The list of his tech just goes on and on. Most of it didn't even take long to create. It has taken Apocalypse thousand of years to learn his tech which of course is usually thwarted by the x-men.
I dont mean to rag on Apocalypse or anything ( I loved him in x-men TAS) but as a character he usually appears in bad stories some less impressive than others.
Xcutioners song- bad
the twelve -bad
BOA- bad
AOA -decent
Originally posted by llagrokAny bio you read of Apocalypse with no doubt show his wide array of abilities. The list is impressive, the execution is rather lacking. For his variety of powers, he should be plowing through most of the people he has trouble with.
Stats?What the hell are you talking about?
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Any bio you read of Apocalypse with no doubt show his wide array of abilities. The list is impressive, the execution is rather lacking. For his variety of powers, he should be plowing through most of the people he has trouble with.
Trouble with? Who does he has trouble with?
Every time he hasn't been depowered and fought the x-men, he has wiped the floor with them.
I never made any reference to any handbook or bio, so why even bother bringing them up?
