Obi-Wan vs Mace Windu

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
He is skilled with force crush (an actual offensives ability), use the force to empower his hands to punch and severely dent a battle droid ( I believe Lightsnake said they were made of durasteel), his skills in shatter point, force speed vs kar vastor, then of course he has the core tk powers as well.

And vapaad channels Mace's own anger into a weapon. And Obwian would never take sidious cause he is completely outmatched by Sidious in every way.

So you are using a single feat to make him equal to Mace in the force. And can Obiwan do anything that Mace can't? No

LOL,that is not proof.The movie also says Anakin made a statement he is a fallible character and there is nothing to back up Anakin's opinion and your's Anakin says he is more powerful than the chancellor but there is nothing to back that up. "But EH it was said in the script written by George Lucas so it must be true." You have to understand the plot devices. The purpose of that line was signify how highly Anakin thought of his master yet he still feels like his master is holding him back.

I'll be on later tonight but I strongly urge you to rid personal opinion/speculation out of your posts cause it is really annoying when nothing it backing up much like your last point I just addressed about Obiwan's AOTC power,that is what macde Gideon stop responding and soon it will make me.

To be honest im not even a massive Obi-Wan fan. Im jus giving my opinion from what iv picked up from the films, cartoons and comics. So if you prove me wrong then im wrong... jus giving my opinion, and the other side of the argument.

If you dnt want to respond thats fine. I havent insulted anyone. Theres no need to get angry at me for giving opinions which you may not like. And i usually do base opinions on whats in the movies, cartoons and comics. And by the way if you read Gideons posts to me you will find there were not that many facts, and he was speculating a fair bit as well. If people do not want me here or do not want me to debate opinions based on what weve seen in the Star Wars universe then I will voluntarily stop posting myself.

So ok... Force powers for Obi-Wan.. Blocking all of Durges's attacks, rockets, fire e.t.c., crushing Durge's weapons(and would that not count as Force Crush??An actual offensive ability like you said)... Breaking Durge apart when trapped inside him(Force Strength).. We saw Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon use Force Speed at the beginning of TPM.

Yes Mace uses Vapaad. Obi-Wan does not. Obi-Wan has Mastered Soresu and can in turn block 20 hits a second or something. Can Mace do this? Not as far as I know.. So would this count as something Obi-Wan can do that Mace can not? Or would it count as something Obi-Wan can do better than Mace??

That single feat of matching Anakin means a lot! And thats proof from the film, and yes just 1 feat like that is something, as it means he matches the Chosen One in Force Pushing Power at least. and then suddenly you have to think about everything Anakin can do with the Force. Because weve seen Obi-Wan match him. (Anakin beat the living daylights out of Asajj Ventress and Durge just using the Force.)

And by the way I see a lot of arguments for Mace on these boards based on 1 feat, him defeating Sidious in Lightsaber battle. Oh and that feat which started with 3 jedis helping Mace to initially engage Sidious, and ending with Sidious pretending to be weak with the Lightning(Lucas has confirmed this himself.) But when an argument comes for Obi-Wan based on 1 feat of his against Anakin its supposed to mean nothing??!! thats not very fair..

And finally about Anakins line... ur comparing that to when he sed hes more powerful than the chancellor, he can overthrow him??? thats when Anakin was completely saoked in the Dark Side and frankly was dillusional. Besides he did have more potential... Sidious himself sed Lord Vader will grow more powerful than either of us.. Power is a broad term in the Star Wars Universe. It can mean potential, or Force Power or fighting abilities... and its certainly been used in more than one sense in the SWU. my point again, when talking about himself Anakin was usually biased, but he was criticsing Obi-Wan at that point, but at the same time gave him credit where he deserves. He certainly didnt look like he was going to give Obi-Wan more credit than he deserves at that point! Lol!

If I cant use lines from the movies as proof, then forget it il stop posting and let you guys debate ur one sided arguments. Lol!

and by the way Elite Hunter uv given ur own Speculation of that line and why it was sed. And uv Presumed it was Anakin's own opinion and he wasnt talking facts there. Which is fine by me. Thats all part of debating.. giving ur own opinion on the context of a certain scene. But im not going to refuse to debate with you because of that. with these vs. columns there will be opinions.. sumtimes u just can not prove who wuld win in a fight... it is just speculation based on other parts of the SW Universe that weve seen.

but just for the record if Anakin just wanted to show how highly he thinks of Obi-Wan he could have just sed "dnt get me wrong Obi-Wan is an extremely Wise and Powerful JEDI"... but he equated power with Mace more as a factual statement than an opinion. It seems his opinion was that "Obi-Wan is a great mentor", then he backed it up with factual statements. Am i speculating... maybe thats ny interpretation of the scene, just like you gave yours. Is my interpretation more unreasonaable than yours?? Well I dnt think so.

So much opinions with little to back it up. Though I give you credit for listing the force feats to obiwan which I may get to later today if i have the time but i feel this is more important than the actual vs match in this thread.

And by the way I see a lot of arguments for Mace on these boards based on 1 feat, him defeating Sidious in Lightsaber battle. Oh and that feat which started with 3 jedis helping Mace to initially engage Sidious, and ending with Sidious pretending to be weak with the Lightning(Lucas has confirmed this himself.) But when an argument comes for Obi-Wan based on 1 feat of his against Anakin its supposed to mean nothing??!! thats not very fair..

And finally about Anakins line... ur comparing that to when he sed hes more powerful than the chancellor, he can overthrow him??? thats when Anakin was completely saoked in the Dark Side and frankly was dillusional. Besides he did have more potential... Sidious himself sed Lord Vader will grow more powerful than either of us.. Power is a broad term in the Star Wars Universe. It can mean potential, or Force Power or fighting abilities... and its certainly been used in more than one sense in the SWU. my point again, when talking about himself Anakin was usually biased, but he was criticsing Obi-Wan at that point, but at the same time gave him credit where he deserves. He certainly didnt look like he was going to give Obi-Wan more credit than he deserves at that point! Lol!

If I cant use lines from the movies as proof, then forget it il stop posting and let you guys debate ur one sided arguments. Lol!

You can use them but if you keep using them in such a way like this than the arguments will get ruined, just because something is said in the movie doesn't make it fact. You need evidence to back up the claims and in this case there is no evidence.

and by the way Elite Hunter uv given ur own Speculation of that line and why it was sed. And uv Presumed it was Anakin's own opinion and he wasnt talking facts there. Which is fine by me.

Do you not understand that you need evidence to back up Anakin's claim yet there is none. And as I already said Anakin is an in universe character thus making him fallible.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
So much opinions with little to back it up. Though I give you credit for listing the force feats to obiwan which I may get to later today if i have the time but i feel this is more important than the actual vs match in this thread.

I listed Obi-Wans force feats from the cw cartoons because people on these boards tend to miss them, but tend to remember Mace's for some reason. I usually do back my claims up as much as everyone else does on these boards and speculate about as much as everyone else. I just think a couple of people on these boards are accusing me of too much speculating simply because they dnt like my conclusions from certain lines and scenes from the SWU.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

Except Anakin nor Obiwan outdueled the most powerful dark lord of the sith even by ROTS. Which is fact.

thats not what i was saying. i was trying to say if you can use that one feat of Maces to back up so many of the arguments in favour of him, then why cant I use the feat of Obi-Wan equlaing Anakin in the Force as an argument for Obi-Wan being powerful in the Force again and again.

You see even when I back up my arguments from scenes from the films, you still dnt accept it and accuse me of speculating.

And by the way, we never saw Anakin or Obi-Wan lightsaber duel with Sidious, so to say you know what would happen would again be speculation. Which is fine by me. because thats all we can do here is speculate, but from what we have understood from different lines and scenes in the SWU, and debate about that.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

Both of them have similarities,Anakin makes a claim and it is wrong. Do you not understand that just because a statement is in the movies doesn't make it a true. Anakin is a [B]FALLIBLE character. He gave his opinion and there is NO evidence to support it. All the board members would agree with me on this.

You can use them but if you keep using them in such a way like this than the arguments will get ruined, just because something is said in the movie doesn't make it fact. You need evidence to back up the claims and in this case there is no evidence.

Do you not understand that you need evidence to back up Anakin's claim yet there is none. And as I already said Anakin is an in universe character thus making him fallible. [/B]

And ur not understanding what im saying about that line either.
I never said that Anakins word is The Truth, and must be a fact. I was just adding that line as part of my argument. And saying we shuldnt just totally ignore that line. Yes iv not proved what he said was true.... but nobodys proved that he was lying or mistaken either.

Its a very simple argument to say Anakin MIGHT be wrong, thereby just ignoring a line in the movie because you dnt want that to be true. And like Iv already said many times... Anakin wasnt talking about himself, so wasnt likely to be that biased. If he just wanted to say Obi-Wans great, then he could say "dnt get me wrong. Obi-Wan's is a great mentor. Hes a very WISE and POWERFUL Jedi." but he specifically compared him to these other jedis. and he was still on the light side so not completely unreasonable or dillusional.

also looking at the context of the scene he was wanting to criticise Obi-Wan so was unlikey going to give him More Credit than he Deserved.
And yes Anakins from that Universe and he is a jedi himself so is more likely to know the level of powers of other jedis than me or you wuld knw.

And finally Lucas put that line in specifically comparing Obi-Wan to these 2 other great Jedis. he didnt have to... he could have just put the line Obi-Wan is a great jedi. So thats why I dnt think we should just ignore that line.

And by the way, Anakins not the only one who thinks so highly of Obi-Wan.. Yoda has always thought very highly of him, and basically considers him to be like the perfect jedi. For his powers, his wisdom, and overall skills. Do you need proof of this too before you accuse me of speculating without any proof again? I can provide some if you want, i just need to find all the quotes from Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth Power
And by the way, we never saw Anakin or Obi-Wan lightsaber duel with Sidious, so to say you know what would happen would again be speculation.

George Lucas, the Making of Revenge of the Sith: "You need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." Anakin, Obi-Wan, Dooku, and everyone else don't qualify.

Originally posted by Gideon
George Lucas, the Making of Revenge of the Sith: "You need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." Anakin, Obi-Wan, Dooku, and everyone else don't qualify.

Im pretty sure he was talking about the heroes thats why Anakin and Dooku were not mentioned.. and before you accuse me of speculating, I think it was Nick Gillard who called Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Sidious all level 9 Saber duelists. He said fights between level 9's can go either way. Thats how they choreographed the fights. He put Obi-Wan at a level 8. He put Anakin in AOTC at a level 7, so we can assume Obi-Wan was probably a level 7 at that time as well. They didnt say what level Dooku was at.

So you see if he was talking about the villains as well, then Anakin would definetely have been included as they already put him in the level 9 league. Also common sense would suggest that if he can defeat Dooku, then he would at least be able to COMPETE with Sidious.

I assure you I have zero intention on bashing you so this will be my last post in this thread regardless if you apply to or not.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
thats not what i was saying. i was trying to say if you can use that one feat of Maces to back up so many of the arguments in favour of him, then why cant I use the feat of Obi-Wan equlaing Anakin in the Force as an argument for Obi-Wan being powerful in the Force again and again.

Because I already mentioned a few other feats and the feat out dueling the most powerful sith lord ever>>>>>>>>Stalemating Anakin with the force.

I never said that Anakins word is The Truth, and must be a fact. I was just adding that line as part of my argument. And saying we shuldnt just totally ignore that line. Yes iv not proved what he said was true.... but nobodys proved that he was lying or mistaken either.

You see even when I back up my arguments from scenes from the films, you still dnt accept it and accuse me of speculating.

And by the way, we never saw Anakin or Obi-Wan lightsaber duel with Sidious, so to say you know what would happen would again be speculation. Which is fine by me. because thats all we can do here is speculate, but from what we have understood from different lines and scenes in the SWU, and debate about that.

And ur not understanding what im saying about that line either.
I never said that Anakins word is The Truth, and must be a fact. I was just adding that line as part of my argument. And saying we shuldnt just totally ignore that line. Yes iv not proved what he said was true.... but nobodys proved that he was lying or mistaken either.

This part of your argument has been refuted due to the lack of proof that backs up AOTC Anakin's opinion It is up to YOU to provide the evidence to back up the statement.

Its a very simple argument to say Anakin MIGHT be wrong, thereby just ignoring a line in the movie because you dnt want that to be true. And like Iv already said many times... Anakin wasnt talking about himself, so wasnt likely to be that biased.

And finally Lucas put that line in specifically comparing Obi-Wan to these 2 other great Jedis. he didnt have to... he could have just put the line Obi-Wan is a great jedi. So thats why I dnt think we should just ignore that line.

And by the way, Anakins not the only one who thinks so highly of Obi-Wan.. Yoda has always thought very highly of him, and basically considers him to be like the perfect jedi. For his powers, his wisdom, and overall skills

Do you need proof of this too before you accuse me of speculating without any proof again? I can provide some if you want, i just need to find all the quotes from Yoda.

Hunter, I think you need to consider some of the facts that POWER has put on the thread. You also need to consider the fact that Obi-wan actually has the ability to beat Mace. Just because obi1 isn't a level 9 fighter, doesn't mean he can't beat one. Him beating anakin is proof of that. (And it wasnt Lucas that said the saber fighting levels, so i'm still not convinced) Still, most of POWER's "facts" aren't backed up with info. Some of them are good, solid facts though. Like it was pretty impressive when obi1 blocked the fire from durge, and all the needles. And matching anakin in the force. imo, either combatant could win this.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I assure you I have zero intention on bashing you so this will be my last post in this thread regardless if you apply to or not.

thats entirely up to you. im just giving my opinion.. if you dnt want to debate them thats fine.. i dnt see the point in the thread then, if your not going to debate with anyone who gives ponits in Obi-Wans favour.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Because I already mentioned a few other feats and the feat out dueling the most powerful sith lord ever>>>>>>>>Stalemating Anakin with the force.

I also mentioned a few feats of Obi-Wan. I never sed beating the emporer was not as impressive. Besides I was talking about force power when i brought up that feat, not lightsaber dueling. And that Force feat straight from the movies says a lot.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

You brought up the point and I among others, have said that it is not true and asked for proof that back ups Anakin's opinion.

Most of if not all of what you posted does not back up Anakin's opinion which was made before the CW. .

Fine I give up on the AOTC line.. its not such a huge thing to spend most our posts just arguing over one line in the film. Id much rather you address the Force Feats i mentioned Obi-Wan doing including Force Crushing Durges weapons.. and using Force Strength to break him apart from the inside. Especially since a lot of the arguments on Mace side were that he could Force Crush Obi-Wan??? and that he has Force Strength.

By the way since we have decided to ignore the AOTC line, then can we also not ignore Yodas line in ROTS when he says "Not Powerful enough are You to Fight this Emporer.." since Yoda is also an in Universe fallible character with his own opinons(not always right).. and it was clear he wanted to go kick the Emporers b*** himself! Lol!

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

We know ROTS Sidious is the most powerful sith to have come till that point. We see Dooku knock out Obiwan. We Sidious take out 3 jedi masters in seconds and take take Mace and Yoda on for a long period of time giving them hell. I recall hearing that Lucas has stated that "you have to be a Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious" and Anakin and Obiwan is not included in that statement. .

in ROTS Dooku knocked out Obi-Wan with superior Force Powers.. he didnt outduel Obi-Wan. AOTC fight doesnt count since Obi-Wan improved since then. Sidious taking out 3 jedis quickly doesnt mean that much after seeing General Grevious defeat 5 Jedis at once.
Yes Lucas has said that. But you know Lucas is also a fallible character known to make mistakes. Lol.. he at least should not have left out Anakin, as Nick Gillard already said Anakin was a level 9 Saber duelist in ROTS. Thats how the fights were choreographed anyway. and after Anakin took out Dooku, I think its quite obvious that he could at Least COMPETE with Sidious.

Neway im just adressing some of your points.. im not saying Obi-Wan can outduel Sidious. Although in a Saber Only fight, he could probably last quite a while due to his mastery of Soresu. Iv already said Mace would have a much better chance agianst Sidious than Obi-Wan due to Vapaad. But that doesnt mean Mace would win against Obi-Wan.

Anakin would stand a much better chance against Sidious than Obi-Wan would. Anakin took Dooku, which Obi-Wan could not. But that didnt mean Obi-Wan culdnt take Anakin in the end did it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes Lucas has said that. But you know Lucas is also a fallible character known to make mistakes. Lol.. he at least should not have left out Anakin, as Nick Gillard already said Anakin was a level 9 Saber duelist in ROTS.

Lucas is never fallible! Take it Back!
Anyways, DARTHPOWER has some points. No one has ever said Mace is more powerful in the force than obi1. And since of soresu, Obi could beat mace at sabers too. Even if this was true, it would still be a tough fight.

Both of these Jedi are two of the best there are. Their nearly equal in everything, from what i've seen. IMO, this could be a really close match. Obi-Wan could win from his mastery of soresu, by blocking everything Mace throws at him. Mace could win because of his agressiveness with vaapad, slowly breaking down obi's defenses. Though I'm not sure you can break obi's defense, at least not with a lightsaber. Many of you would think that Mace would win, probably because he is older and more experienced. But I would have to disagree. I have to say that obi1 would win with a large amount of difficulty.

Maybe I should have put an option for "Draw" in, considering this would be and extrememly close match.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Both of these Jedi are two of the best there are. Their nearly equal in everything

Even if it'd be difficult for him to lose, there's just no way for Obi-Wan to win.

Originally posted by Faunus
They're not even close to equal. Obi-Wan would definitely put up an excellent fight in a lightsaber duel thanks to his Soresu mastery, but Mace is stronger, faster, more skilled, and decidedly more powerful. His advanced shatterpoint perception basically clinches it; while Obi-Wan can do nothing but defend, Mace can beat on him until he exposes a weakness and capitalizes on it.

Even if it'd be difficult for him to lose, there's just no way for Obi-Wan to win.

Prove it. No one has ever said Mace is more powerful in the force. Obi Wan matched Anakin in the force, blocked fire and needles with the force, and force crushed Durge's weapons. Also, Obi-Wan is the unrivalled master of soresu, just because it is made for defense, doesn't mean obi cant attack! Soresu traps people in their own offense. Ok, gotta go!

and hett wasn't krayt when obi-wan ripped his arm off. yet.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Prove it. No one has ever said Mace is more powerful in the force.

Obi Wan matched Anakin in the force,

blocked fire and needles with the force,

Wut teh FurceGod!

and force crushed Durge's weapons.

Mace Windu owns the Feat Wars, end of story.

Also, Obi-Wan is the unrivalled master of soresu, just because it is made for defense, doesn't mean obi cant attack! Soresu traps people in their own offense. Ok, gotta go!

Again, he'll put up a good fight in a saber duel, but he just can't win. Kenobi's the man, but here he's just outclassed.

Originally posted by Faunus
Soresu traps Anakin in his own offense. Obi-Wan is not going to be able to pull that off against the stronger, faster, more refined, and less idiotic Mace Windu.

Originally posted by skywalker833
On wookiepedia, go to soresu and it says very clearly that soresu is made to trap people in their own offense.

And while we're using sources that can be edited by anybody, that statement basically agrees with me. Anakin and Grievous were the only two notable duelists who were "trapped" and overcome by Obi-Wan's Soresu, and they both happen to be exceedingly arrogant and insanely aggressive combatants with notable flaws of their own.

Grievous had been told by Dooku (in both CWC and LoE) that he needed the advantages of "fear, surprise, and intimidation" on his side were he to engage a Jedi in combat, and that if any one of those were missing it would be best for him to retreat. Against Kenobi, he had none. And he got owned, because - as demonstrated in the cartoon in a sequence that appears to have been designed as an explanation to why Grievous lost - he used "standard attacks," didn't "control the central line," and had none of the necessary advantages he would need to face an upper-level Jedi in combat.

Anakin... was Anakin. Basically, an idiot.

Also, he never managed to beat Asajj Ventress in any of their seven or so encounters. This would be because, in addition to her incredible skill and prowess, she was cunning and patient, not ticked off or desperate as Anakin and Grievous were in their respective situations.

You have not given any proof at all. So until you do, I don't care what you say.

I've given far more proof than should be necessary for anyone who isn't either a complete idiot or biased beyond reason. You appear to be both, so wouldn't expect you to actually understand this, but whatever.

I'd say Mace takes it, but it'll be EXTREMELY tough for him to beat Obi-Wan... depending on circumstance, I'd even say that Obi-Wan could defeat Mace.

Right then... NG's assertion of saber combat skills clarified the fact that Obi-Wan is in a league below Mace, Sidious, Yoda, and even Anakin (which sucks, I always considered him being Anakin's equal xD), and that already- as numerous people stated here- PROVES the fact that Obi-Wan, in terms of pure lightsaber skills, is inferior to Mace.

Right then... there's a slight problem I have with, people ALWAYS seem to set apart intelligence and the ability to manipulate your surroundings/think tactically from lightsaber skills, while someone could go check that there's an entire lightsaber sub-form- sokan- that relies on using the environment to overcome an opponent. Hence, it's a skill that Obi-Wan has proved himself to be incredibly skilled with, allowing his defeat of Anakin DESPITE Anakin's 'pure' saber skills being slightly better than his.

It was also for that exact same reason that Grevious lost; Grevious used unorthodox, overwhelming attacks of little control, using his machinized body, strength, and agility- rather than skill- to dominate his opponents. So, this completely fit Obi-Wan's style of taking out an opponent not by destroying their defense, but rather by exploiting a mistake they made. It's an extremely cool skill, and is why Obi-Wan was, ultimatelly, a better fighter than Anakin.

Now then. When Anakin, Yoda, Mace, and Sidious are all 9's, why is Anakin inferior to them all (debatable, but it seems likely)? Because, Anakin's style is an uncontrolled mass of emotions and power, while each one of the strikes used by the three 'top dogs' is calculated and done for a specific purpose that's not "overpowering the opponent"? For that reason, while Obi-Wan might be able to hold against them for an extremely long time, he'll never defeat them- they won't make any mistakes against him.

Mace has proven to be a calm duelist, who harnesses inner fury, rather than external, wild fury (So does Sidious) to take out his opponents. Eventually, Obi-Wan's formidable defense would be overloaded by Vaapa's unpredictable, unique movements... unless, Windu somehow makes a mistake, or Obi-Wan manages to successfuly manipulate his position to his advantage, a skill Mace never showed. So, all in all, I'd say Mace will likely eventually beat him on even ground, while if they fought somewhere like Mustafar, Obi-Wan has a very good chance of beating him.

Note that if Force Crush could just kill anyone, then why didn't Mace force crush Sidious while he was 'weak'? Obiviously, someone trained in the force like Obi-Wan could resist such a thing.